back

Whitehorse, Yukon

Wednesday, May 4, 1988 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

We will proceed with Prayers

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will now proceed with the Order Paper.

Introduction of Visitors?

Any Returns or Documents for Tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I have for tabling responses to questions by the Member for Riverdale South.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?

Are there any Petitions?

PETITIONS

Mr. Lang: I have a petition for filing today about the extension of commercial electrical power to Henderson Corner from Rock Creek.

Speaker: Introduction of Bills?

Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?

Are there any Notices of Motion?

Are there any Statements by Ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Education in Partnership with Yukon’s Indian People

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I rise today to outline a number of important new initiatives for the year ahead through which I will continue building upon the opportunities for partnerships between the Department of Education and Yukon Indian people.

The department, through Yukon College, is developing a comprehensive cross-cultural training program that will be available to teachers, people working in the justice system, and other groups and individuals working in cross-cultural settings. It is our intent to have Indian people closely involved in the development of this program, since the intent of the program will be to help bridge gaps of understanding that may exist between individuals in the Yukon’s native and non-native cultures. This new program will build on a variety of smaller cross-cultural initiatives that have taken place in the past. It will serve to combine and coordinate efforts, thereby laying a firm foundation that can be adapted and drawn from to best suit the specific training needs of any particular group.

As another very important step, the Public Schools  Branch will be hiring a Coordinator of Native Curriculum Development. This person will have three major functions: to identify Indian curriculum needs; to coordinate curriculum development projects to address those needs; and to help implement the curriculum across the Yukon school system.

In order to do these things, the coordinator will work closely with bands and school committees in each community to determine their local priorities for curriculum development or modification. The coordinator will encourage community participation in curriculum development and will make sure good curriculum ideas developed in one community are also shared with other communities.

To work closely with the Coordinator of Native Curriculum Development, there will be established an Indian curriculum committee, responsible for providing direction to the coordinator. Members of this committee will be sought from Yukon bands and will meet to review the development of new curriculum.

This work will continue to build on the base of some excellent locally developed curriculum and support materials already completed through joint efforts of the department and the curriculum development arm of the Council for Yukon Indians.

As well, on the local level, Indian people in at least two communities have established local Indian education committees, which provide valuable input to both the school and school committee in their area. Such a committee is active in Teslin and a second in the Porter Creek area of Whitehorse; a good working relationship exists between all parties.

Combining the above with the proposed Indian Teacher Education Program and expanded support for the Native language program in schools, I feel confident that significant strides are being made to explore and implement further avenues for Indian people to be closely involved in effective ways in the Yukon’s education system. These cooperative strides will serve to strengthen and enrich the school system for everyone. Many more exciting opportunities lie ahead, and I look forward to being an active participant in their development.

Mrs. Firth: I wish to ask the Minister if there is something new in this Ministerial Statement, because I believe that the Minister gave the same speech yesterday in the Legislature. On page 411 in Hansard, the Minister talked about the education for the Yukon Indian people being a second thrust to which the government is dedicating resources, about hiring a native curriculum development coordinator, how the individual would work closely with the Indian bands, about guidance being provided to the curriculum coordinator by an Indian curriculum committee and about the Indian teacher education program. Perhaps if there is something new in the Ministerial Statement, he could bring it to our attention.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The preliminary details, which were outlined both in the Speech from the Throne and yesterday during the budget debate, are recommended reading for anyone who wants to know what is happening with the Department of Education this coming year. It was the desire of the government to ensure that the significant program elements were provided in a detailed Ministerial Statement for the public so that they may get a clear indication of the more significant thrusts that the government is undertaking with respect to its priorities for education this year.

Speaker: This then brings us to Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Bilingualism

Mr. Phelps: I have some questions about bilingualism and the agreement made between this government and the federal government, arising from debate in the House yesterday.

In a response to my question yesterday, the Government Leader stated that the result is far different from official bilingualism because while there is a right to speak in the House, there would not be a requirement for simultaneous translation into French or English or for Hansard to be published in both official languages.

I am unable to see that that is really correct. I would like to ask whether or not the Government Leader would agree that, under the terms of the proposed bill, any person would have the right to use French, or English for that matter, in this Legislature?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I think it is a matter of record that in recent years Members on both sides of the House have, for admittedly brief moments, addressed this House in French and have not been challenged to do so in the same way that Members have briefly addressed the House in aboriginal languages. I know the Member is not asking me a legal opinion, but it seems to me the right has never been challenged in recent years. I understand it was a matter of some debate in the early days of this Legislature. The situation, I believe, as provided for in this agreement is that the practice would be able to continue; what would be different is that we would not be required to do the French Hansard or simultaneous translation of the debates, and I do not know anybody who thinks that is necessary or required.

Mr. Phelps: I do not want the Government Leader to take offence. I am simply trying to clarify what seems to me to be a very important issue. The proposed Clause 3 would establish a right; I think any common sense person would recognize that. There is another clause in the proposed bill that speaks about any member of the public having the right ...

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Member please get to the supplementary question?

Mr. Phelps: ... to communicate in French and to have French services where there is a significant demand for communications with and services from that office or - and “or” is important - due to the nature of the office it is reasonable that communications be in French or English.

My question is this: if a person in this House is bilingual or speaks only French and has the right to speak French exclusively in this House, and does so, surely would we not agree that it would only be reasonable that there be instantaneous translation into English for the rest of the Members here? Would we not agree that...

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Member please get to the supplementary question?

Mr. Phelps: ...that is the situation that this bill would set up?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: For a start, the Member is asking me a hypothetical question, which I am sure he knows is out of order, but I think it is also one that may speak to a serious misapprehension that may exist in some minds, so I want to address it even though it is out of order.

The possibility, at some future point, of a unilingual francophone being elected to this House may exist, but I want to speak, as this agreement does, to the practical reality. It seems to me that there are, in this House now, bilingual or even multilingual people who speak a number of languages which are not English; I think there is one person who has a knowledge of Kaska, another one speaks Loucheux, another one speaks Northern Tutchone, and so forth. Those Members may briefly address the House in their own language, and if they want to communicate with anyone other than their own constituents, they would either translate their own remarks on the record or provide a translation for Hansard. I do not know how likely is the prospect of a unilingual francophone addressing a House full of English speakers, but should such a person achieve office in the Yukon, this agreement does not mean they can dictate or acquire simultaneous translation or a French Hansard.

Mr. Phelps: I am sure that the Government Leader will agree that there is no law in force right now in the books of the Yukon Territory that would demand translation of somebody speaking in a language other than English. Is that the point?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: As a matter of fact, the Member opposite is a lawyer and I am not, but I am advised that, unlike the Northwest Territories or Saskatchewan, when the Yukon Act was created, the provision respecting languages was deleted so there is no official language constitutional fact in the Yukon. The language of the vast majority in this community, the working language, the language of commerce and government business is English and is likely to continue to be so. What we are talking about is the provision of services to minority language groups, services where there is some real demand by a large number of people for some service that is needed and urgent.

The Member asks about communicating with some office where it was reasonable to speak French. I think it might be reasonable for a francophone parent to want to speak to people who are dealing with l’Ecole Emilie Tremblay in French. There may be some other centres. Those will all be matters that will be decided in negotiations with the communities we are trying to serve, rather than dictated to us by way of a parliamentary decision in Ottawa.

Question re: Bilingualism

Mr. Phelps: I am simply trying to be helpful with what I see as an obvious problem. The Government Leader knows, there was an individual in Alberta who, although he could speak both languages, insisted on speaking only French in the Legislature and that led to a confrontation. Such a person could be elected here, such as Mr. St. Jean. If that person exercised his right in law to speak only French in the Legislature, I am submitting that any reasonable court or person would agree that the rest of the people in the Legislature would have to be in a position to understand what was being said. That would require instantaneous translation. Surely the Government Leader understands that.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I believe that no such conclusion can be drawn. There are now Members of this House who speak languages other than English. If the Member for Tatchun wished to address a question to me in Northern Tutchone, because he wished the question to be heard by members of his constituency who could not speak English well, he could certainly put the question. I would inevitably have to take it as notice, because I would not understand the question. If he wanted an answer he would probably either provide me a translation at the time he asked the question or give me prior notice, and I would respond not in Northern Tutchone, but in English. I believe the same kind of practice would apply to someone choosing to speak French in this House.

The Member talks about the provisions of the agreement that cover a bill that is not yet before the House. I think it is perfectly within the powers of this House, without undoing the agreement, to talk about the precise conditions under which people would exercise these rights without limiting the rights, but to talk about how, as a purely practical measure, we can provide for these eventualities. That is an appropriate subject for discussion.

Mr. Phelps: It is a realistic and serious concern that brings me to ask these questions. The difference between the situation now where somebody wants to speak a bit of French or Southern Tutchone or Tlingit in the House, and the situation after there is a law in place that says a person has a right to speak that language exclusively, and ...

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Member get to the supplementary question?

Mr. Phelps: ... and that services and translation with be required in either language, where it is reasonable, is that any reasonable person would say the rest of us would require instantaneous translation to carry on in this House, if a person insisted on his right. There is no such legislation that pertains to a minority language now.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I am sorry the Member is now taking the position he does not agree with the agreement we made in Ottawa, or he is insisting it amounts to the official imposition of official bilingualism, because it does not do that, nor will he find anyone in Ottawa who believes that, nor anyone here.

The Member is making a debating point, and not really asking a question. A reasonable person would say that someone who was elected to this House who spoke a language other than English, even if they spoke English as well, and insisted on speaking in the House in this way, I would say that would not be reasonable behaviour by that person if they wanted to communicate with the rest of us.

This agreement is about providing services where there is significant demand. The nature of those services is going to be discussed with the communities who have an interest in receiving those services. They will be practical measures provided for with funding by the federal government.

We have not enshrined, nor do we propose to enshrine, French as an official language of this Legislature, as an official language of this community, or to impose official bilingualism in the Yukon Territory. That is what we have avoided by this agreement. The opposite is what would have been the consequence of Bill C-72, were it to have passed through the House of Commons unamended.

Mr. Phelps: I take the Government Leader at his word, and I understand he believed he did something. The problem is it does not only set up a situation of significant demand, which is what he seems to be basing his position on. Section 6(a) says “significant demand or due to the nature of the office, it is reasonable that communications be in both French and English”. That is the point. The wording of the required clauses in this bill has placed us in the situation where we may be faced with de facto bilingualism.

Speaker: Order, please. Would the Member get to his supplementary question?

Mr. Phelps: Does the Government Leader not understand the concern?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I understand the concern. I am slightly alarmed by the position the Member opposite is taking on this question, but I do not agree with it, support it or accept it. The advice we have is that he is drawing the wrong conclusions.

Question re: Hyland Forest Products

Mr. McLachlan: I have a question for the Minister responsible for Economic Development. Yesterday we learned that 30 people will be laid off from the plant at Watson Lake, with very indication of when they will be recalled to work. Can the Minister advise why the go-ahead has not been received by the operator of the mill to proceed immediately with repairing the damage caused by the fire, so that the mill can get on with cutting the timber and back to its full production rate?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I understand that the Member may be referring to a news report this morning, which I understand contained some misinformation. In fact, the situation is that the Yukon Development Corporation board had made a decision to go ahead, in advance of the insurance adjustor’s final report, with the replacement or repair of the damaged equipment. The contemplated time frame under which this work is to be undertaken is six to eight weeks.

Mr. McLachlan: I was not referring to a news report this morning. I was referring to one issued yesterday by the Yukon Development Corporation, I believe.

Can the Minister confirm that a buyer has indeed been identified for the plant, and that part of the changes that might have to be made, as a result of the fire, are at the insistence of this prospective buyer?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: No, I cannot.

Mr. McLachlan: Like it not, the fire has reduced the value of the plant, at the moment, and anyone who might be looking at that plant could possibly put a bid in that would be of lesser value than the plant is worth. Is it in fact true that the plant is still for sale, or does the government, in its long-term plans, still intend to operate it ad infinitum?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I made it quite clear at the time that we entered into this venture, and have made it clear in answer to questions since, that it is the intention of this government to sell our interest in the Hyland Forest Products. I have also made it clear to the Members opposite that we want to sell it as a going concern and also be satisfied that the power potential that may exist in that plant can be realized for the good of the community of Watson Lake. Our continuing interest in that matter will also have to be assured at the time of any sale, if that potential is realizable.

Question re: Social housing

Mr. Lang: Last evening I had a call from a constituent who had just been informed that at least one of the social houses being built in Whitehorse was going to cost $112,500. He was quite upset, at the same time, that the Minister referred to that as “modest housing”. I explained to the constituent that we had raised this issue, and that it was of concern to us that so much was being spent on each home being constructed. During the debate yesterday the Minister, and I quote from Hansard, said, “The Yukon Housing Corporation has put a call out to people to ask them provide, in the individual tender specifications, ideas on how the houses could be made even more modest.”

The concern on this side is whether or not we can get realistic, modest housing for the purposes of providing social housing. Could the Minister explain to this House exactly what he meant by that particular statement? Does it mean that the tender specifications for the house will be put out and then the contractor could say, “We need less insulation, or less gyprock.” What is the basic idea that the Yukon Housing Corporation is looking at?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The Housing Corporation is always interested in keeping the construction prices as low as possible. They are also interested in ensuring that the construction costs do not exceed the maximum unit price allowable for social housing construction as permitted by CMHC rules. In so doing, they are interested in providing durable housing for rental accommodation and energy efficient housing.

They have, in the past, asked individuals to provide ideas if concern was expressed about certain tender specifications. They have provided advice as to whether or not there are alternatives in the contractor’s view that could be considered in bringing the price of housing construction down.

Mr. Lang: Perhaps this is where the Minister and I part company. I can see an $80,000 or a $90,000 as being very modest, yet very durable but having to meet the building code. Has the Minister considered putting out a call for proposals for contractors to submit a price for basic designs that could be used to meet the basic requirements of a home? In that way, we might be able get these prices down to some common sense level.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The Member for Porter Creek East and I have parted company long before this. There is no question that the Housing Corporation has expressed an interest in houses even though they require them to be durable and meet the needs of the clients to make them as low costing as possible.

I will ask the Housing Corporation what their plans are and suggest to them the proposal to ask the public to submit ideas on lower cost housing that meets the necessary qualifications. I will ask the corporation to consider that and I will report back to the House.

Mr. Lang: There are some major concerns out there. A lot of people live in homes that are valued at $70,000, $80,000 or $90,000 and feel they are quite durable, modest and provide a good home to live in.

Is it a requirement now, under the tender specifications, that R-2000 is being required?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes. The Yukon Housing Corporation and Energy, Mines and Resources are using R-2000 technology to try to make more energy-efficient housing construction in the Yukon with optimum air quality inside the units, since they are better sealed than the traditional building design. This cooperation between the federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources and the Yukon Housing Corporation has been going on for some time and has received considerable recognition from people outside the jurisdiction who are interested in seeing what we are doing here.

Question re: Yukon Housing Corporation/Ross River/King residence

Mr. Lang: I look forward to the response to my earlier query. I would like to move on to the Yukon Housing Corporation and an area that has had a fair amount of debate since last fall, and that is the question of the King residence, the house that was purchased by the government for $40,000 and sold for $4,000 recently.

On Monday, I asked the Minister of Community and Transportation Services for the legal descriptions of the lots in question that the house was swapped for, as well as the house that was sold. I also asked for the dates when the sales closed. Could the Minister now provide that information to the House?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The legal description of lot 214 is plan 53407, Ross River subdivision, and the swapped lots are 39 and 40, plan 27954 in the Ross River subdivision.

Mr. Lang: Could the Minister confirm to the House whether the sales have closed?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The sale transaction for the improvements was completed on January 12, and the transfer of titles is currently in the hands of solicitors.

Mr. Lang: So, they have not formally closed. Can the Minister confirm today that a decision has been taken that the government will not be renting the “shack” - as the new president of the board referred to it - in Ross River for the estimated $900 plus janitorial services?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: First of all, I will have to check the record on a couple of things. The $900 per month rent proposed from the proponent includes janitorial services. The proponent made a submission to the Ross River Community Campus Committee. The decision on whether or not the community campus committee or Yukon College will be permitted to rent any space in Ross River has not been taken by the government. Government Services will be evaluating available space in Ross River, and the best location will be chosen after consultation with the community campus committee.

At this point, I am informed the proponent has indicated he has invested approximately $30,000 in renovations to the unit to date, and projects there will be a few thousand dollars more in renovations done yet before the house is ready for any occupancy by anybody, private or public.

Question re: Yukon Housing Corporation/Ross River/King residence

Mr. Lang: Maybe I missed something here, but is the government still considering renting this particular home?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The angle of the Member’s question is wrong. The government was never considering renting this person’s home. The community campus committee made a request of Yukon College to rent this person’s home, after having sought a place for approximately 18 months. They have indicated that, now that they feel the necessary renovations are either done or will be done to their satisfaction, they would like to see the home rented by the Government of Yukon.

The proper procedure for renting a space in the community is for Government Services to evaluate what is available in the community and, once the decision is made to rent new space, get the best deal for the government and evaluate all proposals.

Mr. Lang: I must have missed something, or did I sleep in? Is the government still considering renting this house that they just sold for $4,000? Yes or no?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The Member must have slept in. The tenor of the question suggests that the government was at one time considering renting this location. The government has never considered renting this location. They have received a request from the Community Campus Committee to rent this particular location.

The Member for Hootalinqua asks “whose money this it”, as if the Community Campus Committee in Ross River has absolutely no right to make any suggestion of any kind about accommodation for their community campus facility in Ross River. I think that is wrong; I think they do have a say, but nevertheless, the government is going to be considering renting some accommodation in Ross River for the community campus. I am certain at this point that this particular unit will be considered, along with others.

Mr. Lang: Now we have that on the table, it will be interesting to see what the government does.

Question re: Social housing/Ross River

Mr. Lang: I would like to refer to the two brand new homes being built in Ross River. One costing $113,000 I believe and one costing $114,000. In the terms presented by the Minister of Housing it would be called modest housing. Can the Minister confirm that these homes are still vacant?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Again, the angle of the Member’s question is slanted. The suggestion is that they are vacant and the question is are they still vacant?

One is not vacant. The other one will be filled as of May 15, I believe, which is just over a week away.

Mr. Lang: I asked a question with respect to these particular houses the other day and I do not have a reply yet, basically, because it takes normally about six to eight weeks to build a modest home from the day it starts to the day it ends. My understanding is that it has taken eight months to build what are actually prefab homes, not-stick built homes.

Why has it taken so long to build these prefab homes that were purchased in Prince George?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I will have to continue to correct the record as the Member insists on not doing the necessary research to provide for a decent question and answer period.

First of all, the materials for the homes were all purchased through local suppliers. Secondly, the construction of the units took until May 15, if we want to take the period from construction to the date they will be fully rented, which is six and a half months. The septic system was not installed due to delays because the ground was frozen and could not be installed. There was a bit of difficulty with a framing subcontractor on one of the units and that contributed to delays during the winter season. I would not think that, given the explanation, the construction was unreasonable at all. It certainly did not affect the price of the construction.

Mr. Lang: I apologise to the House that it only took six and a half months as opposed to eight. Could the Minister perhaps explain further to this House  why it would take six and a half months as opposed to what is normally a seven or eight week job? Is it strictly because the ground was frozen and he could not put in the septic tank?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The final construction was delayed because the ground was frozen and the septic system could not be placed in the ground while the ground was frozen. That was the primary reason for the construction not having been completed sooner but, as I indicated before, the price of construction compared to the tender price was significantly cheaper.- I know the Member would like to see the government adopt only the tender price, which would have caused the prices of each house to rise tremendously. The Yukon Housing Corporation did adopt the route that was cheaper and they have tenants, one of whom is living in the units.

Question re: Yukon Housing Corporation/tender procedures

Mr. Phillips: I am going to ask a question of the Minister of Yukon Housing that was asked before so there was lots of time for preparation. The Minister promised to table the Housing Corporation’s tendering procedures in the House, which were adopted in 1986. Will he do that now?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Not now, but I will table the tendering procedures and policies.

Mr. Phillips: When will the Minister table it? The other night in debate he told us that he could not do it that evening but he would get on it first thing in the morning. If these procedures are in black and white, it would seem to be just a matter of having a courier bring them over to his office so that he could table them.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes, it would be rather easy to bring the documents over. Of course, they are public documents and have been delivered to all contractors. If the Members want me to do the research for them, I will certainly undertake to get the material over. This information is public and I am sure they could do it themselves, but I will undertake to do it.

Mr. Phillips: The Minister gave us an undertaking in the House that he would bring them to the House. That is all I am asking him to do today - bring it to the House; I did not ask for a long explanation.

Could the Minister undertake to also table a copy of the Corporation’s 1986 bylaws that changed the tendering procedures?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I think there is a furious agreement here. I will be tabling the policies and procedures. There was a bylaw, which the Housing Corporation rescinded. The Corporation’s board did approve the policies and procedures and the Housing Corporation administration has been following those policies and procedures to my knowledge.

Question re: MV Anna Maria

Mrs. Firth: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services regarding the MV Anna Maria. Because we expect the government to protect our investments, I would like to ask the Minister if he is checking into the permits that will be required from the Government of Alaska and if he will be assisting the businessman in expediting those permits’ availability so that the vessel can be brought into Canada?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yesterday we heard the Member complain that the government was irresponsible for having supported an irresponsible entrepreneur - in her words and by her implication - and for having proceeded with this project. I am informed that the entrepreneur has acted in a very responsible way by contacting Community and Transportation Services last summer to apply for a single trip permit for the vessel that the Member mentioned yesterday. Community and Transportation Services has provided the entrepreneur with a list of duties that he is responsible for, as an applicant for a permit, to undertake the move. I am advised by Community and Transportation Services that the trip is technically feasible, and, with the proper transportation plan, can be undertaken. I am also advised that Community and Transportation Services has been in contact with Alaska, and that cooperation with that state has been sought and agreed to by the state for the move of the vessel up the highway. All routine activities for permit application of this sort have been adhered to, and the department is looking forward to a successful move for this vessel from Skagway north.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister knows very well that we did not say that the entrepreneur was irresponsible. The Minister knows very well that the issue here is the government’s ability to analyze projects when they are giving them funding with taxpayers’ dollars. We are talking about an international concern ...

Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the Member of guideline seven: a one sentence preamble is allowed in each case.

Mrs. Firth: We are talking about two governments communicating and assisting the entrepreneur in getting the permits. If everything is going smoothly, can the Minister indicate to us when the entrepreneur received the permits from Alaska?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The implication yesterday was crystal clear that the government should not have been assisting the entrepreneur, and that the entrepreneur, for not having taken into consideration the basics, such as the trip between Skagway and Whitehorse, was irresponsible. That was a very clear implication that the member relayed to the House. I am saying that much of the necessary work has been done to establish the technical feasibility and to communicate with each of the affected interests. Once the final plan is in place, knowing now that it is technically feasible, then the permit, as is for situations like this, will be issued on both sides of the border.

Mrs. Firth: Have any permits been issued?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The permits, as per usual, will be issued once all of the final technical details, with respect to the emergency plans, et cetera, have been taken care of. The Members yesterday seemed to suggest that the trip was not feasible, in their expert opinion, and that, in fact, is untrue. It is technically feasible and, if the proponents do what is normal and responsible in situations like this, then they will receive their permits and the boat will travel from Skagway to Whitehorse.

Question re: Pounds keepers/livestock control officers

Mr. Brewster: My question is for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. I hope that I have got the right Minister. Can the Minister advise the House how many pounds keepers and livestock control officers have been hired?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: The Member has got the right Minister. I do know what is happening in Renewable Resources with respect to this matter. I thank the Member for giving notice of the question. It was much appreciated. No pounds keepers have been hired in addition to the two pounds keepers for the two districts in place right now.

Mr. Brewster: Can the Minister advise the House how much each pounds keeper and livestock control officer is being paid in each district?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I do not have the precise dollar figures, but I can provide the information with respect to the basis on which the pounds keepers are paid. I am sure the Member knows, they are paid on the basis of a monthly retainer. They are also paid mileage rates and pick-up charges and daily fees where, for example, there is a horse in the pound. These conglomerate fees are paid to the pounds keepers on a needs basis.

Mr. Brewster: If I knew the answer I would not bother asking. Does the Minister have an estimate of the number of livestock in each pounds district? Is this number a factor in determining how the respective pounds keepers and livestock control officers are to be paid?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: General densities are known to Renewable Resources. There are no specific counts, but some of the figures are based on the accident frequencies in the pounds district areas. The income would be affected by the number of violations that occurred in a particular area, as the monthly retainer is only one, small portion of the fees paid to pounds keepers.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will now proceed with the Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: The House Leaders have agreed that motions 59, 55 and 38, in that order, should be called under Motions Other than Government Motions, and that a maximum of the one hour should then be devoted to Bills Other than Government Bills, and that the House should then proceed with government business.  Such an agreement requires the unanimous consent of the House. I would therefore request unanimous consent to proceed in the manner I have outlined.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

All Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: There is unanimous consent.

MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

Motion No. 59

Clerk: Item No. 7, standing in the name of Mr. Joe.

Speaker: Is the hon. Member prepared to deal with item No. 7?

Mr. Joe: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Member for Tatchun

THAT it is the opinion of this House that driveway snow clearing can be a physical and financial hardship for Yukon seniors and physically disabled people who reside in rural areas of the Yukon; and

THAT this House encourages the Yukon Government to consider establishing a program that makes it easier for seniors and disabled people to get their driveways ploughed in winter.

Mr. Joe: I brought forward this motion because there are elders who I think we should help out a little bit.

I am thinking of people who live in a cabin in the rural areas off the main roads. In the wintertime, when it snows, these elders could use a hand to get their driveway ploughed.

In many cases, the grader goes right by their place. It would only take 10 minutes or so for the grader to make a quick pass and clear the driveway of these senior citizens.

For the elders, this means a lot. For the government, well the grader is going right by anyway, and it probably would not cost the government very much to help these people out.

I know of quite a number of people in this situation in the Carmacks area. There are a few around Minto and Pelly.

Like I say, in many places it would only be a five or ten minute job by the grader, which is going by anyway.

It would not need to be done very much. They could go in the driveway two or three times a winter - this would really help.

I think we should do the same thing, not just for seniors, but also for people who are handicapped. There are not any people like this in my riding, but there might be somewhere else in the Yukon. I think we should help these people, too.

We have to give a lot of credit to elders who want to live in the bush all year, especially in the winter-time. The government should be able to help them out if they ask for it. Driveway ploughing can be a big problem if you are an older person. You do not want to get stuck.

Also, we have to think of emergencies. Sometimes they might need to see the nurse or a doctor. If there has been a big snowfall, they need to get it ploughed right away so they can get out.

It also works the other way. Sometimes people want to pay a visit to their older friend or relative. They might not be able to get in to see them if there is too much snow in the driveway.

I think we should see if these services can be provided for free. Like I say, we are talking about two or three times a year - and just a few minutes each time. I do not think this would add up to very much.

Right now, these older people can get the government to plough if they pay so much. Well a lot of elders are on a pretty limited income; plus it can be difficult to arrange.

This motion asks the government to look at a program to make it easier for our seniors and disabled people to get their driveways ploughed in winter.

I hope all hon. Members will support this motion.

Mr. McLachlan: I have some minor problems with the motion. I have no problems with the intent of the motion and the area that it is directed towards, but perhaps when we hear from the Minister we will hear of some program that may be able to purchase bobcats for all of the driveways. In a number of the rural communities, the road graders are not equipped to do the work that is mentioned in the motion when the wind-row is ploughed up on the edge of the driveways.

I agree with the Member for Tatchun that it is extremely hard for those who are physically disabled and in no financial position to pay $40 an hour, or whatever the going rate is, for machinery to clean their driveways. That is the part of the motion that I have no problem with. I have some problems, however, with making it workable in all of rural Yukon. The municipalities that have their own governments are responsible for the road ploughing, and in a number of cases they are simply not in the position to do this; they do not have the manpower or the equipment to do this.

I support the intent of the motion, and I am looking forward to hearing from the other members who may speak on this issue as to how the idea is workable in all of rural Yukon in such a way that would be fair to the municipalities and to the unorganized local improvement districts and hamlets.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I thank the Member for Tatchun for bringing the motion forward, because, in principle, it has a great deal of merit. There are certain qualifications and logistical problems that have to be faced. These are not insurmountable, although they do exist. The purpose of the motion, which is to consider snowploughing service for elders in rural Yukon, is a decent and worthwhile objective given that there are things that will have to be considered in the implementation of a proposal of this sort.

One of the things that has become clear to me, as Minister responsible for Highways, is that there have been numerous requests made to plough driveways on a needs basis, whether the person is infirm or is unable to plough it themselves. There is no formal road maintenance policy in place in the rural Yukon. So many of the decisions are left up to each foreman.

There are some general policies on cost recovery, and those are adhered to as much as possible. Those of us from the rural Yukon know that road foreman generally do try to meet certain needs as expressed by local social service agencies, the local RCMP or an elder who have requested the assistance of Highways to plough a driveway.

The area where road foremen could get into trouble is the area where they sometimes do not show consistency in the application of the policy. It is a situation where the foremen themselves are caught between a rock and a hard place, because they want to do well by the communities, and yet it is almost impossible to maintain a purely consistent system in rural Yukon.

The aspects that I think we have to consider about this motion, which are the most significant, are whether or not it is a desirable policy to promote. Taking the words from the Member for Tatchun, I can say that I think that it is desirable to encourage elders to live in their own homes and to maintain a quality of life that they have become accustomed to all of their lives, rather than to force them into biscuit boxes in the communities, either in rural areas or in Whitehorse. If they have a dog team, for example, it is sometimes difficult to move the dog team to the third floor of the seniors complex and not disturb their neighbours. Many of the elders would still like to maintain a quality of life associated with the real rural living. In some respects this can be facilitated with the assistance that perhaps Highways can provide in ploughing the driveways.

For elders there is the issue of having emergency access to ambulance or to other services. As the Member for Tatchun did mention, this is something that we should definitely bear in mind. A third item is that we all know that seniors have paid their dues and do not operate, as a general rule, on large incomes, but rely on pensions, old age security, and CCP to survive. The more remote they are, the more costly it is to provide, on a cost-recovery basis, the snowplough services, or to rent them out.

All of those reasons are, in themselves, worth considering when deciding whether or not to support this motion. I think that all of these reasons are reasons that cause me to want to support this motion, as Minister for Highways. The Member for Faro brought forward some practical considerations that have to be considered. The issue of ploughing roads with giant government graders on narrow driveways, up and down hills with grades of sometimes 11 or 12 percent, on poorly-surfaced roads, is an issue that has traditionally been a problem for Highways. Clearly, the road has been maintainable in order to be maintained, under any program. As well, when we are talking about private driveways, we are often talking about driveways where other people may be travelling. Safety must be taken into account, and that would have to be addressed as well.

A third qualification which I think is very important is that there may be instances - I know there are instances in my own riding - where a senior’s driveway may be at the end of a 20-mile road that is not maintained in the winter-time. If we are going to consider ploughing the driveway, I think that we are going to have to take a hard look at whether or not we are going to be ploughing the access road to the driveway, as well, however long it is. We will have to consider driveways as off-roads that are routinely maintained in the winter. We will have to draw up some guidelines, in terms of the amount of work that is required in order to maintain the road and the length of the driveway.

I would stress that these are not insurmountable problems. I stress. The Department of Highways certainly has taken a preliminary look at the proposal and identified some of the problems. They do not feel they are insurmountable and feel that it would address a long standing concern in rural Yukon for people who want to live in rural Yukon and have absolutely no desire to move to Whitehorse but feel that one of the restrictions to their continuing to so live is access to the highway near their homes. That and, of course, the final consideration, which is the cost, have to be considered in terms of whether or not we proceed aggressively with this particular policy. Clearly, it is the feeling at this point that the cost would not be out of the ballpark, would not be outrageous, but would be quite supportable. We will know better once the policy has undergone further review and we will then have a better understanding of what the real cost might be in each of the rural districts in Yukon.

Having said that, the government definitely supports the motion. If the logistical problems could be worked out, I think it would be well received in rural Yukon and I think it meets a number of our objectives to allow elders to remain in their homes in a very rural setting. It will meet a long standing demand made of the Department of Community and Transportation Services for driveway ploughing for senior citizens.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I wish to speak briefly. Although this is a motion about the rural Yukon, I think it is appropriate to mention the City of Whitehorse as well, and I would like to mention three issues. One of them is in the nature of a story I think is informative of this issue.

Firstly, let me say that when I was in Opposition I was proud to be able to get organized a program that is still occurring. It is the seniors’ housing, which is owned by Yukon Housing and occupied by senior citizens, in my riding. It has a snow removal program now. A work crew at the Correctional Centre comes after a snowfall and cleans not only the walkways but also the sidewalks in front of the houses. That started in the very early ‘eighties and is continuing now; it is a similar kind of program that I know has been very, very well received by the senior citizens in the downtown area of Whitehorse. I also know that the inmates who shovel the snow like that job as it gives them a feeling of contributing something; that is perhaps not universal but is the majority view of the inmates who actually shovel the snow.

I have spoken on various occasions to senior citizens in the downtown area about snow removal. Especially, the more elderly seniors experience difficulty in getting around in the winter because of the ice build-up on the sidewalks.

They really, sincerely appreciate the fact that some home owners will shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of their houses. I would suggest that something less than a quarter of the people downtown do this now.  I do not know particularly about Porter Creek and Riverdale, but it certainly occurs downtown. It is sincerely appreciated by the senior citizens, and, I am sure, by people with handicaps. If the media are reporting on this particular motion I would say that it would be a public service if those comments of appreciation are noted in the media for future years.

I also wish to comment that this is a service for senior citizens that could be included in what has frequently been called a handyman or handyperson service as a benefit for our senior citizens, and as an initiative to increase the private home ownership for seniors in the territory. It is certainly my experience that the vast majority of senior citizens wish to stay in their own homes for as long as possible. It is things like this kind of responsibility of home ownership that lead seniors at a point in their lives to give up home ownership. With that they frequently give us a little bit of feeling of independence and self-sufficiency and that goes to their dignity. A service of this kind as a handyperson service is a very worthwhile public goal.

Motion No. 59 agreed to

Motion No. 55

Clerk: Item No. 3, standing in the name of Ms. Kassi.

Speaker: Is the hon. Member prepared to deal with Item No. 3?

Ms. Kassi: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Member for Old Crow

THAT this House supports efforts to combat alcoholism through life-styles programs, wilderness camps and other programs that build individual self-respect and dignity.

Ms. Kassi: The motion we are debating today gets at what is probably the Yukon’s largest social problem - alcohol abuse - and what we can do about it. I have seen many people struggle and suffer with this disease we call alcoholism.

Many of us have come to conclusions about what kinds of treatments seem to work and what kinds do not.

It will not surprise hon. Members to hear me say that if people had more control over the solution to this issue, their chances of success would be a lot better. It is time to look at solutions to this problem that lie within the people themselves. This is what I am talking about with the lifeskills programs. As well, I want to discuss solutions that come from within the groups of people, and here I am talking about the wilderness camps.

It is a well known fact that alcohol abuse is widespread in Yukon communities, and that it is responsible for most of our social problems, such as child neglect, fetal alcohol syndrome, family violence, property crimes and other forms of crime. As a result, these alcohol problems load up our jails, our assessment centres, hospitals, et cetera.

It is also nothing new to say that native people are featured prominently in alcoholism, and we see our jails and other institutions loaded up with aboriginal people who are there as a result of alcohol-related crimes.

In the fiscal year 1986-87, there were 271 people admitted to the Whitehorse Correctional Centre who got there as a result of alcohol or drug-related offenses. The next year, ending March 31, 1988, we saw 295 people at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre as a result of alcohol. Not long ago, we received the report of the justice review. Its main conclusion was that 90 percent of crime in the Yukon resulted from alcohol abuse. What a great day it would be if we could only cut that in half.

This shows us the size of the problem, and we must do something about it. For my own community, we have many people who get in trouble with the law as a result of alcohol abuse. It is clear to me that there are many deep-rooted causes for such wide-spread alcohol abuse and the problems that flow from it.

Today, with this motion, it is not my intention to look so much at the causes as at the solutions, although you cannot look at one without the other. I think many people have looked at this over the years, and have come up with the same thing. Behind this problem is a dislocation of people in a distinct culture and caused by not being able to cope with the clash of cultures between native and non-native society.

We could talk all day about that, but it is my belief that the answer lies in strengthening the cultural values and the beliefs of native people who abuse alcohol as the first and best way of solving the problem. As a people, as a community, aboriginal people have much to be proud of. When we take pride in our culture and practice our traditions, we are strong and we are united.  That is the value in these wilderness camps. Right now, we see Indian bands and tribal councils in many Yukon communities undertaking the construction of wilderness camp facilities. This is a good sign. People know we need to get people away from places where there is booze to where they can undertake traditional pursuits and strengthen themselves and one another much more holistically.

Recently, members of the Champagne Aishihik Band tried out the wilderness camp as an idea they felt would work. Aboriginal people were saying that they thought a program based on the land would be most successful for an alcohol treatment program, and people at the Champagne Aishihik Band decided to try this idea. People were saying there would be more success in familiar surroundings that offer more comfort. People are much more relaxed in this kind of environment, although it was recognized that the most important part of the camp is the program itself.

A series of mini camps were conducted by two Northern Native Alcohol and Drug counsellors in 1987. They concluded that that could work here in the Yukon as a comprehensive program that will focus on rehabilitation, education and training, self-sufficiency, culture and tradition. This is an overall life-enhancement program and it is recognized that not all bands would want to do everything at once. This comes about because right now existing treatment programs deal with the intensive or primary phase of treatment. There is not a lot of follow-up. What we need is comprehensive pre-treatment and after-care programs.

I would like to outline some of the work done by the Champagne Aishihik Band. About a year ago they took a group, mainly young men to a remote lake with the objective of doing some trapping as well as explaining some long-range plans for the development of a community treatment project. There were a number of suicides in the community at that time, and this was considered a high-risk group that needed immediate attention. To make a long story short, there was a lot of enthusiasm and discussion about furthering this kind of idea for treatment.

A second camp was established at a different place, mainly of families, to discuss how they reacted to the first camp. Some participants were a bit apprehensive of the counsellors, so friendship was stressed. They found that in this camp environment, sitting around campfires, people worked well as a group.

A third camp continued the work. There seemed to be a lot of interest in the camps, but the question was: “what kind of programs would be effective?” The third camp refined the work. They dealt with young adults who had participated in Indian treatment programs outside the Yukon. Again, there was good response and more support for a continuation of the camp program.

The lesson here is that this kind of idea is worth supporting. There has been a continuation in Champagne Aishihik of good relations between counsellors and participants, and the community is stronger for it but they want to do more. Many people in many places in the Yukon are convinced that this is definitely the route to go and we, as leaders in the Yukon, should be encouraging them and providing the resources for them to accomplish something on their own.

They can and will succeed if we provide the tools for them to do the job. We cannot accomplish these things or take these steps without solid sober leadership at the community level, and this means that we must work on developing strong individuals who can lead within our communities. This is what lifeskills training is all about. We have many talented people in our communities, people with a lot of potential, but they lack certain skills. They are shy or they cannot speak for themselves or they are afraid to try things. They will not take little risks.

After a lifeskills course, they are all changed. Their outlook is completely different. They are stronger and more confident. They believe in themselves and their ability to do things like quitting drinking, like holding down a good job, like working for the betterment of their community, whether it is a good trapper or a good hunter or whatever they want to be.

In Old Crow, we had a lifeskills program not long ago. The whole community got behind it. As well, there was a lifeskills group that was happening in Fort McPherson, our relatives next door, who came over to support the group in Old Crow. Our elders especially got behind this group. The course involved just 11 people but it sure made a lot of difference. After eight weeks there was a graduation and more than 140 people came out to congratulate them and attend the ceremony.

This is the kind of thing our community can endorse wholeheartedly, because people see the value in it. I want to publicly congratulate everyone involved in that program for doing such a good job. I am so proud of them. This was the first for our village and I hope there will be many more. I would like to see this sort of thing made available to other communities as well, because I know they get many benefits from it. We have five life-skills coaches fully trained and qualified within the Yukon Territory right now; we have two in Watson Lake, two here in Whitehorse and one in Mayo. These coaches need to be encouraged to do lifeskills groups within these communities.

We see in the budget before the House that this government plans to spend $1.3 million this year on alcohol and drug abuse. Then there is money spent by the National Native Alcohol and Drug Program, and perhaps some by Indian Affairs. To be quite honest, I think we have to spend more if we want to get better results. There are good programs through Detox and through Crossroads and I have a lot of respect for people working in this field. It is not an easy job. I want to commend the Minister of Health and Human Resources for taking steps to coordinate all the efforts in the Yukon on these issues through the creation of the Substance Abuse Committee. However, I think we  need to invest resources in things like lifeskills programs and wilderness cultural camps, things that build up individual strengths and reinforce traditional values. Some good work is going on now with these wilderness camps and I think this House should indicate its commitment and its willingness to these kinds of solutions to our territory’s biggest social problem.

I will listen with interest to what the hon. Members have to say during this debate.

Mr. McLachlan: I would like to thank the Member for Old Crow for bringing forward this motion this afternoon for debate and consideration by the Legislature. However, I would have added a couple of phrases perhaps and made it a little stronger in some areas. I think “and drug abuse” should be added after “alcoholism”, and I think a little more specificity should be included about who is responsible for it, and the particular government departments and their programs.

The level of alcoholism and drug abuse throughout the Yukon has been a concern of mine. I feel that the government of the territory must continue to do work to support the problem of alcoholism. The problem of drug abuse is one I also feel must be addressed, and the drug abuse problem is just as serious, in my mind, as that of alcoholism.

I would also like to speak to the serious alcohol and drug abuse problem that exists in the school system here in Whitehorse, and the largest high school in the territory, FH Collins, in particular. The root cause of the alcohol and drug abuse in our school system is boredom and peer pressure. When the children are getting into trouble with drugs and alcohol in our schools, the problem will only continue and get worse later in life. I feel that a considerable effort should be made to remove the drugs and the alcohol from our school system. Extra-curricular activities are just such ways whereby we could teach our children self respect and dignity, and I feel we should do all we can to get some of the children’s lives off those roller coasters and into a system that is much more challenging and rewarding for them.

I believe with the system working properly, a number of our young offenders would not be where they are today because of these problems. It has been my information and my intention to put more accent on those people who work with the young offenders and who do these types of programs. I feel those instructors are not being given enough free rein to carry out their work and training in these areas. Were that accent and funding in those directions allowed, I feel a number of these programs would, if not totally be put aside at least be blunted and at made not quite as severe.

In closing I would like to say we support the intent of the motion and would have directed it a little more in the areas of responsibility where government Ministers and Members could do more to help this serious problem.

Hon. Mrs. Joe: I rise in support of the motion that is before the House. As the Minister responsible for Alcohol and Drug Services, I can state with certainty that the development of community-based initiatives, be they wilderness camps, lifeskills training or any other alternative response to substance abuse is both encouraged and supported by my department and this government.

We are all aware of the drug problem in the Yukon. It has been mentioned today already with regard to the number of individuals that we see in the jails. It has been mentioned by the number of young offenders that we see in our care. Many problems that come to our department with regard to family violence, child abuse, family break-up are as a result of alcohol-related incidences. Those things continue to happen. We are all very well aware that just about every single department is affected by that very deep problem.

The Department of Health and Human Resources has played an active role, along with the provincial and federal counterparts in the development of the national drug strategy. The Ministerial Advisory Committee on Substance Abuse, as the Member mentioned, has taken a lead role in promoting the community action program of the national drug strategy - a program which supports the development of innovative community strategies for the prevention of substance abuse.

A workshop recently sponsored by this committee saw representatives from all Yukon communities gathered in Whitehorse for two days to learn about the national drug strategy. They shared ideas about community initiatives and developed a support network of concerned Yukoners engaged in the battle against substance abuse.

I would like to say here that it was a very successful seminar. It brought in many different people from all walks of life from all communities and also individuals from out of the territory. They came out of there with a lot of good ideas and ready to go out and look for new ideas as well.

This government has also recognized a need to involve the community in dealing with social problems. Substance abuse is no different, but the community must take the active role in promoting healthy lifestyles and work toward changing the conditions which can lead to substance abuse.

We have been saying that it has to be a two way street. This government wants to get involved. The community groups want to get involved in trying to combat this problem. We have to work very hard towards that.

My department, along with other departments, has a history of actively supporting community-based initiatives in the area of substance abuse, such as the lifeskills program in Old Crow, a counselling workshop in Dawson, and a proposed counselling program in Teslin. There was a large gathering in Alkali Lake, and we know that the combating of alcoholism there was very successful. At that time, we made a contribution to many bands to help in the transportation of many individuals down to that gathering. I am very proud of that commitment that we made.

Those are just a few things that this government has done. We recognize that there is no single way of combating substance abuse. It requires the coordinated efforts of many people. We will continue, through our community-based resource people, such as the community alcohol workers, the coordinating efforts of the Ministerial Advisory Committee, our training and public sessions and our financial assistance, to support community groups.

I am encouraged by the initiatives taken by community groups, as the Member for Old Crow has said, to combat the alcohol problem, and I applaud them in their efforts, - and to some extent, their successes, because there have been many - but there is much more to be done. We all recognize that.

This government has made a commitment to improve the quality of life for Yukoners, and, in particular, that of our small and remote communities. In the past, we have made contributions to lifeskills training, and I understand from the Member for Old Crow that that training was successful. She mentioned something that I am speaking of here. We continue to use resources from outside of the Yukon. It is my belief that, if we are going to take this kind of training seriously, and if we are going to be working with Yukoners, then we should start working at Yukon-developed lifeskills training. We have people who are trained in that area, and I would like to see more of our own people with the expertise be considered for any new programs, especially in lifeskills and wilderness camps.

We know that there is the will and the commitment by many groups to work toward combating the alcohol problem. My department also has the will and commitment, so with the coordinated effort by other departments and many community groups, we can work toward improving the very big and sometimes very hard problem.

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: Let me start by complimenting and thanking the Member for Old Crow for bringing this motion. I have brought similar motions, in the 24th and 25th Assemblies, and I am glad that, in the 26th Assembly, these motions are brought by someone else.

I think that it is interesting to note the progression of the debate in this House. In the early 1980s, the debate was, you might say, hysterical about some of these issues, but we have progressed a great deal, and we are now talking about solutions to the problem. Although the Member for Faro is calling for more specificity, I think that the solutions, especially in rural Yukon, and among native groups, are within our grasp. It was only four or five years ago that we were not even thinking along those lines.

I wish to mention a few facts that put this issue in not only a national perspective, but an international perspective. It appears that, in the last 25 years or so, there has been a substantial world-wide increase in the consumption of absolute alcohol. It is interesting that alcohol is the world’s most widely-used psychotropic drug and, if you do not include caffeine and nicotine, which are also drugs, it is by far the most used drug in the world. Its use is more than all the other drugs combined.

It is interesting that, over the last few years, the use around the world has increased among all ages and both sexes. Alcohol consumption has risen dramatically in almost every country of the world, outside Islam. As examples, consumption in both Hong Kong and North Korea has increased by a factor of eight in the past 20 years. In some countries of developing Africa, it has increased by a factor of 10 to 11.

In North America, we are now at the point where the average North American devotes more than five percent of their weekly budget to various kinds of alcohol. The figures are old for Canada. In Canada, in the 1982-83 fiscal year, Canadians spent just under $10 billion buying alcohol in stores, bars and restaurants. The conservative estimate in that year was that there were 600,000 Canadian alcoholics. In 1981, it is estimated by the Ontario Research Foundation for Alcohol that alcohol caused an extra $2 billion in health care costs that are directly attributable to alcohol abuse, and substantially more that are indirectly attributable.

Productivity on the job was reduced nation-wide in 1981 by at least $1.2 billion in lost profit. Social welfare costs nation-wide in that year, directly attributable to alcohol abuse, was conservatively estimated at $1.4 billion. The extra costs to law enforcement are conservatively estimated at $650 million in 1981.

It is interesting, that in the last two years, although the economy has continued to grow after a slump in 1981, 1982 and 1983, that the increase in absolute alcohol consumption is slowing down in Canada. That is a good sign, but we are still at the point where 1.7 percent of all deaths are caused by cirrhossis of the liver.

The situation in the Yukon is vastly improving, and we are on the right track. It is motions like this one that serve to increase the public’s consciousness about this problem. I know, for a fact, that Indian bands are particularly wishing to discuss both legal measures to contain absolute alcohol consumption and, much more importantly, a concern with communal therapies such as those identified very ably and capably by the Member for Old Crow.

Let me speak a little bit about Whitehorse specifically and follow on the comments made by the Member for Faro. He talked about boredom and peer pressure in the schools. I agree with those comments. However, he did say that we needed a little more specificity in our concerns and our addresses about this motion. Because of that, I would like to be very specific about just one point.

We developed a practice here that is following a national practice of an arrangement for a use of alcohol by students in high schools at their graduation party. It was developed by concerned parents, especially after there were injuries and deaths on the highways directly attributable to alcohol abuse at graduation parties. This was called Safe Grad. In April 1982, there was a motion in this Assembly about promoting safe grad parties.

That was responsible, at the time; however, there is another specific initiative that should be taken for next year. Unfortunately, it is too late for this year. There should be a chemical-free grad party sponsored by community agencies.

The graduation parties occurred, I believe, last weekend and, as a result of one party, the next day there was a suicide by one of the teenage attendees at this alcoholic binge. I would suggest that the time has come, and it would be acceptable, and it would be used by some, if not all, graduates to sponsor not only a safe graduation party, but a chemical-free party where there is no drug use and no alcohol use. I would recommend to the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health that we particularly put effort into this for next year - also through school committees.

The use of alcohol in the schools has changed over the years, and there is certainly a feeling - and I know from when my son attended FH Collins - that the use of alcohol at parties was almost a badge of adulthood, as smoking was in the 1940s and 1950s. I think the government and school committees and parents can exert what influence they do have, which certainly is some - and I should not forget the churches; I think the churches have a role as well - to change some of these symbolic rights of passage for teenagers. Just as it is now a minority of teenagers who smoke - fewer teenagers smoke than mature adults - we could have the same situation for alcohol and drugs. We do not have that in Yukon today, but we could.

Let me say a word specifically about the justice system and the jail particularly. I have long said, for the past 10 years in the Yukon that if there were not an alcohol abuse problem in the territory, we could fire all the judges, most of the lawyers and most of the police. That is a true statement. I have been saying it for 10 years, and it is just as true today as it was 10 years ago. The problem of crime in the territory is not exclusively, but is largely - I would say in excess of 90 percent - a result of alcohol abuse. The social benefits of improving this problem are tremendous. It is unfortunate that there is not now sufficient attention put on alcohol treatment in the jail. The vast majority of serving prisoners are essentially alcoholics.

When their bodies are free of alcohol, many of them are nice people to be with. The efforts of alcohol treatment in the jail must be improved. The problems are to find the programs which are effective. Again, I thank the Member for Old Crow for her suggestions of a direction which I totally agree will be more effective in the long run than the traditional methods of particular individual treatment that has gone on in the last 15 years or so.

The government has taken the first steps already, and there is a  program for cultural awareness and a coordination of cultural activities at the jail, which has been staffed in the current budget. I will speak more about that in the Estimates if I am asked.

Mr. Joe: I think we all know that alcohol abuse is a big problem in our communities.

Too many people drink, and when they drink they drink too much. A lot of problems come up - people get into fights and hurt each other. Sometimes we get terrible things happening. Also, people die from drinking too much.

To me, it is good news when someone can quit drinking. I hope they can stay dry. This is where special programs come in. We need to build people up so they have the strength to quit and stay dry.

In the communities, we have people who are working hard to help people with their alcohol problems. But still I do not see much has changed. We need to do something now, not 10 years from now. We get more and more problems all the time.

We really want to see something done, but really nothing has been done. This means we have got to do more now.

In Carmacks, the band is building a wilderness camp at Airport lake. They know that people need a place to go, to get away from town where there is too much booze and too much drinking. This can be a place where people can build up themselves, so when they go back to town they will not drink.

I think we have to congratulate places like Carmacks where they are trying to get something done.

Another thing I see is we do not have enough alcohol workers. In Pelly, we have one person. That person is doing a good job, but cannot do it all alone. He works on all kinds of problems. He works work with victims and with young people. This is good, but there is so much to be done, he cannot deal with everybody. I know one person cannot do it; it is a lot of work.

If you want to solve a social problem, you need more workers, like a team of maybe three or four people. You need both men and women to deal with different problems that men and women face.

I have spoken to this House before about alcohol problems in my community and in my riding. Today, I see the Member for Old Crow bring forward a motion I can support. She cares a great deal about her people, and I think that is good.

There are many good people trying to help people who have alcohol problems, and we need to help them out. I think that wilderness and lifeskills programs and similar programs can bring results.

Mahsi cho.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I do not have a lot to say that has not been already said. I thank the Member for Old Crow for bringing the motion forward this afternoon, and other Members who spoke. In my time in the Legislature, there has never been a tougher, more single-minded approach to battling alcoholism than that displayed by the Member for Old Crow. The problems we all experience in all our communities are problems that not only have to be addressed through some of the measures that are mentioned in this motion, but other measures as well. The efforts that are necessary to be undertaken to battle the problems of alcoholism and drug abuse have to be developed at the community level in order for them to be respected by the community and to be effective.

The problems that have been experienced around the territory with alcohol and drug abuse prove the debilitating effects of these plagues have caused many communities to sink into an abyss, and to suffer significant dispiriting effects. I have personally known the lives of many good people to have been wasted to a large degree by the results of too much drink and the use of drugs.

Clearly, with the spirit evaporating, the community spirit evaporates as well, and it is a cycle that is very hard to escape. The efforts that the government has taken over the course of the past few years have, I think, been more focused than ever before. There has been more willingness to attempt community-based approaches to battling alcoholism and drug abuse. There is a greater willingness to provide resources to communities to undertake solutions that are specific and unique to those communities. There are numerous examples where this has been done in communities around the territory.

Certainly one of the most significant success stories has been the one that the Member for Old Crow mentioned, the lifeskills program in Old Crow. I would credit her with singlehandedly taking intransigent Ministers from the front bench, myself included, to task for not moving quickly enough to implement this program. It is to her credit that this program was undertaken and that it was such a tremendous success, at least as far as the funding is concerned. Obviously, the people in Old Crow made the project and the program a success.

The desirability of lifeskills programming has been, through brutal experience, proven to me to be an effective method to encourage people to see themselves in a new light, to respect themselves more, and to remove alcohol from their lives. There are numerous cases in the last few years where we have encouraged life skills programming in communities, including one of my own, which I think was a significant success, albeit on a limited basis in terms of the number of people affected. I am sold, I am a born-again believer in lifeskills programming and alcohol treatment camps. For that I think that my colleagues have done a great deal to educate me, in terms of the need for providing this kind of financial support, either through the programs that I am responsible for in Education, or through the limited program offerings in Community and Transportation Services, through the LEOP program.

The Department of Education has undertaken a number of initiatives through the public schools to encourage the education of young people as to the evils of alcohol and drug abuse. The department has not only developed those programs cooperatively with service clubs, Indian bands, and community clubs, but has also taken to adopting the significant effort that has been provided through the British Columbia curriculum department, and we have enhanced it in the Yukon. I know that the Department of Education is very sensitized to the problem, and is interested in working cooperatively with community groups to help assist in providing for solutions.

The other area mentioned in the Member’s motion, the area of wilderness camps, is one program offering that I think has the greatest potential for success. It is quite common for people to undertake programming or to be assisted by a local counsellor in a community and still not be able to extricate themselves from the problems that perhaps have led them or encouraged them to adopt alcohol as a crutch - or drugs - but the wilderness camps, the desirability of encouraging especially young men and women to learn skills, to learn to fend for themselves, to regain skills in the case of many native people, and also to live in a very supportive drug- and alcohol-free environment I think are probably the best features of the wilderness camp program.

I have seen many good attempts made at providing for wilderness camps around the territory; I have had the opportunity as Minister of Education to support not only efforts performed by Elijah Smith in operating a wilderness camp in the past but also in my own riding as well - wilderness camps that have immeasurably helped young people who had a history of significant trouble with either the police or their families, their grandparents, or at school. The results of the wilderness program were so significant that many of the young people who “graduated” and came back after working in the bush have developed a new sense of self worth and are, I predict, going to become community leaders in Mayo in years to come.

I think that that, too, is an aspect of the motion that I support wholeheartedly. As the Member for Tatchun mentions, there is a great deal that has yet to be done and I do not think we will, in the short term, feel that we have successfully resolved problems associated with alcoholism and drug abuse for a number of years, but that should only give us the necessary inspiration to continue trying and do many of the things we have done which have proven to be quite successful.

Having said that, I will stand in support of the motion as well.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I would like to say a few words about this motion because I think it is a topic of continuing importance and also because I think the truth is that we have not, perhaps anywhere in the country and perhaps anywhere in the world, found the perfect solution to this problem plaguing many individuals, many families and many communities.

I suspect, as has been said before, that everybody in this House has been touched in some way in their own lives by the experience of alcohol or drug abuse.

In preparing for this motion, I thought it useful to check back and see how my own thinking and the public’s thinking has evolved in recent years on this question. I would like to briefly quote from an article that appeared in the Yukon News about 15 years ago. It said, “Yukoners are proud of their drinking habits. We boast the highest per capita consumption in the country, the most bars and busiest beer parlours. Booze is part of our frontier culture. Many of our ideas about manhood are tied to legends about hard drinking heroes. The flow of alcohol through the Yukon has given us evidence of our northern hospitality. To many people with a problem, booze is the only answer. And that is the problem.

“It is fashionable nowadays to talk about alcohol as a drug and booze as the number one drug problem as if it were something new. One old friend of mine scoffed at the idea that Dawson’s Discovery Days celebration has become a big drunk. He claims that it was a big drunk 30 years ago. The only difference was that back then it lasted for weeks. The first police forces were formed in London, England to deal with the social menace of the gin mills. The Mounties grew famous fighting the illegal whiskey trade in the old west. Records of the first frontier settlements in this country are filled with references to public drunkenness and the general lack of sobriety among citizens.”

The article goes on to talk about the formation of Crossroads in the Yukon at that time and the situation, which still survives in some communities, where the bar was a meeting and business place or a hiring hall, and an observation that even though government received significant revenues from alcohol, it was probably the case that the cost associated with alcohol abuse far exceed those revenues.

It is true that there have been some quite significant changes in the last few years in our perceptions about ourselves and about alcohol. It is also true, as my colleagues have said, that there is some progress in addressing this issue.

But I think it is also true that many in the Yukon still pride themselves on our distinct regional character, and we have associated as part of our image the picture of the rugged man or woman of the north. Of course, this character has been developed in our literature through Robert Service and Jack London and we can still see it repeated on the big screen or television, or occasionally, on the radio on the few occasions when the north is mentioned or identified. Some of the elements of that character, the persistence, the resoluteness and the generosity are, of course, very attractive qualities. It is no wonder that we continue to identify with them.

However, the unfortunate assumption that life in the north necessitates consuming large quantities of alcohol on a steady basis is one stereotype that I have often thought we would be better off without, and is one stereotype that is slowly disappearing.

Unfortunately, in the south it is a myth that seems to have taken hold quite deeply. I think it is not so long ago that notions about capacity for alcohol or the ability to hold one’s booze were very, very important in defining one’s manhood or stoutness of character.

I am pleased to see that I think our community is evolving away from these values, but many of the myths still survive, not only here but elsewhere. To some extent, we are still victims of the romanticized picture of the way the north was. For some, I think that hurts us today. I think it is true that behaviour -  which not so long ago we thought of as amusing, or fun, or inevitable, or an inevitable side effect of living in the north - has become recognized as dangerous and destructive, and often not just to the person who drinks but as well to those around them.

The increasing public awareness everywhere in North America and in the western world of the dangers of drinking and driving is having a very positive effect on our society.

It is good that local bars and lounges in this territory are taking steps to combat this problem by adding designated driver programs or offering cars to those who should not be driving.

We have to take a look at why people drink so much before we have any substantial and conclusive remedy to the problem of alcohol abuse and alcoholism. It is often assumed that the isolation of the north, the wilderness and the great open spaces may be the kind of environment for a person to examine one’s life and start afresh. However, I think many of us who live here know just how much extra stress that isolation and the accompanying loneliness can put on a person, especially a person who has left a network of family relationships or friendships to come and start anew here. In that kind of situation, people often turn to the old answers.

We also have to be aware of what we are actually telling each other about the place of alcohol in our society. All the drinking and driving advertisements in the world will not be of assistance if we still believe the biggest or best among us is the one who can hold the most alcohol. Until we stop subconsciously telegraphing the idea it is okay to drink to excess in Canada’s last frontier, I think we would be just walking a treadmill. We would put in a lot of time and effort on the problem of alcohol abuse without getting anywhere.

There are some big changes going on. There are much more positive attitudes about the problem, and a much deeper recognition that alcohol and drug abuse is a serious health problem. There is a lot being done, but there is a lot more that needs to be done. We have to recognize that, while there are lots of programs, there are also a lot of people who are skeptical about many of those programs. There are many people who believe that, on the evidence, not many of them are working very well. I think most of us have seen cases where one kind of program may well work for one person or one family, but not work for many others. The truth is that we are very much feeling our way. We are still wrestling in our own minds with the question about whether alcoholism is a cause or effect, or whether it is a symptom or disease. Of course, alcoholism and drug addiction can affect anyone, but I do believe myself that we will not solve these problems unless we deal with the root causes of many of the people’s situations who suffer these diseases. I think that means we have to address the situations of poverty, violent family situations inadequate housing, unemployment or other problems. I would concede that none of these, or all of these together, would be sufficient to solve the problem. Unfortunately, we are still dealing with an imperfect world with respect to this crisis - as it is in many communities. The communities that are troubled with it have to find the will to begin an attack on it. I think the attack will have to be multi-faceted. I think we have to try everything until we find things that work.

I do not yet believe we have discovered any magic solutions. I suspect there will not be any magic solutions found, but I believe we must continue to try diligently to attack this problem and do everything we reasonably can to deal with it.

For that reason, I support the motion.

Motion No. 55 agreed to

Motion No. 38

Clerk: Item No. 1, standing in the name of Mr. Webster.

Speaker: Is the hon. Member prepared to proceed with Item No. 1?

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Member for Klondike

THAT this House supports the devolution of responsibilities from the territorial government to municipal governments;

THAT it is the opinion of this House that municipal governments should not be obliged, through territorial legislation, to adopt Yukon Government contract regulations; and

THAT this House encourages municipal governments to develop their own contract regulations.

Mr. Webster: There has been a great deal of change in municipal government in just the two and a half years since my term expired on Dawson City Council. Municipal governments have acquired more independence and have assumed responsibilities from the senior government during that time. No longer, for example, are municipal governments left to the mercy of the territorial government to budget for their capital works. Now, municipal governments make their own budgetary decisions, based on their own plans, for the growth and development of the community in which they function. These changes were requested by the municipalities through their own organization, known as the Association for Yukon Communities. This Government of the Yukon has responded accordingly, and presently before this House is an act to amend the Muncipal Act, which would devolve still more responsibility to municipalities.

There has been some debate in this House recently about how far this process - this natural evolution of a local government assuming more authority, greater independence, more responsibility - should go. For example, it has been suggested by some Members opposite that it should be the role of the Yukon Government to develop contract regulations on behalf of the municipalities, to be adhered to by the municipalities.

I think that this would be a mistake. While I recognize that large sums of taxpayers’ dollars are involved in the awarding of contracts, it must be remembered that these taxpayers are living in municipalities, and it is their money. Given the challenge of planning for capital projects to meet their community needs, it only stands to reason that town council will try to get maximum value from its capital block funding dollars on one project, in order to ensure that the other capital projects can and will be undertaken.

I, for one, have complete faith in the ability of town councils to make their own contract regulations that are appropriate for their own community, and to oversee the management of a capital works project in a competent manner.

This motion supports the continued devolution of responsibility from the territorial government to municipal governments, including that of developing contract regulations, and I ask all hon. Members for their support.

Thank you.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I stand to support the motion, as I think that it is fairly obvious that the motion speaks consistently with government policy. The history of the situation, simply and briefly put, is this: prior to 1983, the government undertook capital works with communities and Local Improvement Districts on the basis of a cost-sharing arrangement, which had the government acting as adviser and director of projects in municipalities. In 1983, a capital funding agreement was established in order to ensure that communities had ownership of a project that was to be undertaken in their community, whether it was to be building roads, building a water or sewer work, or constructing a community building. The purpose of encouraging capital agreements, from the period of 1983 onwards, was essentially to provide more community input into the development of projects and to provide better opportunities for local employment.

It will also provide for cost savings, should the community be in a position to directly take responsibility for a project. That was the claim that the communities made when they supported and fought for the creation of the capital funding agreement.

It is important to note here neither before or after 1983, either through a capital funding  agreement or prior to that when communities took a measure of responsibility for projects, were contract regulations considered mandatory. The only thing that was considered mandatory was a reporting requirement on what had actually happened during the project.

In the past, when a project was to be contracted, the Community Services Branch, or its predecessor, monitored the project to ensure that proper tendering procedures were used. With the advent of capital block funding came devolution of the responsibility of carrying out the capital program in total. Irrespective of whether or not projects were contract out or if they were managed by a community, Community Services took on a different role altogether, a role of nurturing and encouraging communities to undertake programs according to their own priorities but not dictating. They would provide advice without dictating how the project was to be undertaken.

The issue before us is whether or not the Legislature feels that it is mandatory for the government to inflict specific contracting procedures on municipalities. It is the government’s position that municipalities are responsible for their own capital construction programs and can make the decisions themselves about whether they contract manage or if they contract projects in their municipalities. They are ultimately responsible and accountable to their own electorate for actions that they take.

No municipality at the time has contracting bylaws. Whitehorse has what they call an administrative directive. They generally follow the principles of fair tendering and the low bid when contracting out projects. The discussion that we have had on contracting procedures and the development of a contract bylaw has resulted in Government Services and the Association of Yukon Communities developing a model contracting procedure. I have already communicated to the Members that model contracting procedure for the municipalities who wish to adopt it should be finished by early summer.

The fundamental issue is how we balance our priorities as a territorial Legislature, how do we balance off the desire for a healthy construction industry that has clear, coherent and fair rules with the desire for more local determination and community hire. One of the main reason for the capital funding agreement, as expressed by the Minister in 1983, was to ensure that native and non-native people in the communities are employed. It was a measure to encourage local employment in a manner that could not otherwise be expected through normal government procedures. This was one of the reasons for the capital agreement being adopted.

I recall that debate, and I remember agreeing with it then, and I agree with it now. I do support the intent that the Member for Porter Creek East, in 1983, spoke to when he supported capital funding agreements. I support that principle now in the devolution of responsibilities to municipal governments.

Clearly, for anybody who comes from rural Yukon at least - well, anybody who comes from Yukon, period, because I know it is perfectly applicable in Whitehorse - the communities are not tolerant of a strong fraternal attitude by the territorial government. They feel they are accountable to their electorate and feel they are closer to their communities; they feel they should be responsible for the capital program in their communities.

I support the view that the community governments can certainly undertake capital works in their communities, that if they have the support of the communities, if they have the administrative wherewithal to undertake the work, then I think, as a government, we should be prepared to divest responsibility for capital projects to communities.

It boils down to whether or not one has faith in the communities to undertake the works in a manner acceptable to the municipality and the community. I, as Minister of Community and Transportation Services, have I think been very consistent in the approach that I have taken with respect to capital project development in the communities in terms of allowing the communities, when they have the wherewithal, to undertake the projects themselves. I think it is a desirable sequence of events that has happened over the course of the last few years, and I would hope they would continue and that the maturity of communities will continue so that even more responsibility can be undertaken by them.

I think it is a fair thing to do. It is something the federal government has permitted of us. They, of course, provide the territorial government with a fairly significant portion of its revenues. They do not inflict their contract regulations on the money they provide to us through the general transfer payment, nor should they. I think it would be highly inappropriate for them to do that, and I laud them for not trying to inflict those rules on the Yukon government. I do not think the Yukon government should be schizophrenic about this, either. What is good for the goose is good for the gander in this respect, if you will permit the cliche. In turn, if the communities have the wherewithal to undertake capital work in a responsible manner, then the responsibility for those works should be devolved to the communities.

It is a motherhood position to take, at least as far as 99 percent of the territory is concerned. I realize that there may be some people wondering why, at this stage of our evolution, we are debating this today, but I think it is important to make it clear to all communities that the government is intending to go in a direction which encourages more local control and local determination. The Legislature is prepared to formalize that through a motion and the Members, however they feel, should stand to be counted on this issue because I think it is one of the most significant in the political development of the territory. It is certainly the one issue, I think, which galvanizes the attention of people in all municipalities and all communities around the territory; a clear statement from the Legislature is warranted at this time and, inasmuch as my role permits, I will be supporting this motion and the government policy, which is entirely consistent with it.

Mr. Lang: I am pleased to see the motion before us. It reinforces the concerns expressed by this side with respect to the fact that, in some cases there are no rules and in other cases there are very few rules. The concern I have always had is the question of fairness and, just as important, the perception of fairness. When you are dealing with public money, whether you are at the municipal level, the territorial level, or the federal level, there is the responsibility to have rules, and those rules should be rigidly adhered to, in order to ensure the perception of fairness by the public, as well as those who are tendering on any given project.

The Minister who just spoke made the inference that, prior to his coming on the scene, the municipalities in the Yukon never had any responsibility and were never granted any responsibility prior to him seeing the light and ascending down in his chariot and becoming a Member of the front bench across the way.

I have noticed he is having a lot of difficulty implementing the principle of devolution with the present Municipal Act, which was put in place in the late 1970s or early 1980s, primarily for the purpose of devolution. It provides the framework to transfer those responsibilities to the hamlet, town or city that wishes to have those authorities, where and when appropriate.

I am really pleased to see this motion here. The amount of dollars being transferred to municipalities at this time are significant. We are talking about multi-millions of dollars, as opposed to times gone by. The Minister referred to 1982, or prior to that, with respect to transfers to municipalities under the Capital Funding Agreement Program.

I do not know if Members realize it, but the over-run on the Yukon College is greater than the total Capital Budget by the YTG in 1982. I am doing this in debate to point out the significant changes in finances that have been made available to the Government of Yukon and, in some cases, subsequently transferred to the City of Whitehorse or the City of Dawson.

I am pleased to see the priority has been accentuated by the government, with Community and Transportation Services working in conjunction with the Association of Yukon Communities to give options and ideas of what bylaws could be put into place.

Over the course of this year, I am hoping we will see the various communities putting these bylaws into effect. It is important for the credibility and integrity of financial management of government to have these rules in place and applied evenly and properly.

Mr. McLachlan: I want to make a couple of remarks having to do with contractors who will have to move from community to community and may be faced with the possibility that there may be a wide range of variance in the contract regulations that could be developed as a result of a motion like this. Many of them in the smaller communities have not got a lot of experience with the development of regulations that may protect the public purse. There is some $7.3 million in the capital block funding this year and although the expertise is available at the level of the City of Whitehorse I question whether it is in all these other situations.

What I would like to suggest to the Minister of Community and Transportation Services is that through Yukon College or whatever facilities exist to him that a number of these people, if this motion is adopted as policy, be called into Whitehorse and be given some background on contract regulations, how they are written, what they are intended to do and what their discipline should be in order that there may be some experience with this. I know that in some of the smaller communities when it comes to building swimming pools or arenas there is often a difference of opinions as to what is expected of the contractor for the monies.

It is only a suggestion and I believe there could be problems later on with contractors having to interpret a wide variety of contract regulations at different municipal levels.

Mr. Brewster: I thought for a while I had gotten myself in a problem being in agreement with the Minister of Renewable Resources. However, I can talk but I cannot vote, so the secret is to convince people that I agree with this without voting. So I should be able to do that.

There is no question that I agree with this 100 percent. I have been fighting for this for 38 years. I can recall the first advisory committee ever formed was by Mr. James Smith. The only two communities that were able to have any say at all were Whitehorse and Dawson City. At that time, I do not know how Dawson City could be called a city but it was a city whether it had the population or not. The first advisory committee in Haines Junction was the guinea pig. Mr. John Bakke, Mr. Terry Kennedy and I sat on the first one. That is the first time three ordinary taxpayers decided to take on the government in Whitehorse. It was quite amusing, and I used to often remember when we came to town Commissioner Smith would sit and laugh and laugh because he thought this was very funny. He used to deal with us in business and he knew when he had the three of us he had a good example of what was going to happen if these advisory committees got going anyplace.

We were successful because we advanced from there to the LIDs, which then were elected by the people. Incidentally, we were appointed by the Commissioner. However, the LIDs were composed of elected people. When they first came in they had their trouble, but were quite successful and moved along.

I can remember once or twice when the whole LID got thrown out and started all over again, but we did it the democratic way. We advanced from there to municipalities, giving more and more control to the local people and ending up with much better communities, much closer to the people and much more understanding. When people were mad - usually, and still, every Wednesday - they could go to the meetings and voice their opinions. They voiced them quite well sometimes.

I have a problem with the Member for Faro thinking these people cannot handle this; quite often, I run into the situation where people are mad at something the L.I.D. does, and they ask me to stop it. My simple answer is that it is none of my business; there are five of them, they were voted in like me, what makes them think the people who voted for me and voted for them think I am smarter than the five of them - because I am not. We have a good agreement that they run the community and I work with them and cooperate and vice versa. Once in a while, as a taxpayer, I say something that maybe they do not like, and sometimes they say some things I do not like, but that is the name of the game. Do not try to split us apart, because they would find out they would have a lot of problems.

I would suggest to the Member for Faro that, if he does not think they can handle that much money, which is a fair amount of money, I am not arguing, I would turn around and throw it back to them: are we really qualified to handle the millions of dollars that we rush through here in two or three weeks? Maybe we had better look at some of this and talk because we have auditors and the Public Accounts Committee and so on check on us; this Legislature is not always perfect, either. We are individuals just like them; we make mistakes and they make mistakes. By making mistakes, they grow up. The only problem that I have found, and I find it is being shot down faster and faster, is that when government officials travel out to detail their programs and do their things, are inclined to play politics. I know civil servants are not supposed to play politics but they do. They try to swing the L.I.D.s and the municipalities over to their way of thinking. Unfortunately, they are not good politicians, because they do not realize, when they go out and tell someone in the Yukon they are going to do something, they do just the opposite. You learn that when you are in politics. You do not go out and tell a group of people this is the way it is going to be, because if you tell them that they are going to do it the other way. That is a good trait. I hope I have got my message through. I am in favour of this motion, but I will not vote on it.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: Very briefly on the motion, I must agree with everything the Member for Kluane said and quite a lot, but not all of what the Member for Porter Creek East said on this motion. I think it is perfectly consistent with the idea of devolution and decentralization and moving appropriate decisions closer to the people who are affected by them by having the responsible level of government deal with matters which are normally in their jurisdiction. I think that is a development that has been going on in the Yukon; I think the devolution of responsibilities to local governments is consistent with the devolution of normal provincial responsibilities from the federal government to the territorial government, and I think the transfer of normal municipal type responsibilities to municipalities from the territorial government is also the direction in which we have been and should be moving.

I think the Member for Porter Creek East talked about rules and fairness and I think that is quite appropriate, but I also think it is appropriate that that debate not only go on here, as it should, but it should go on in the municipal council chambers - as I know from my experience in municipal politics, it does. The nature and quality of debate is often very different because the perspective of the representatives and ratepayers differs from those of us who represent large areas and perhaps a number of municipalities or perhaps, as in my case, part of a municipality. There is a different perspective from the territorial point of view than there is from the municipal point of view, and I have no hesitation in saying that, from my point of view, I agree with the Member for Kluane that the right people to make those decisions are the municipal electors and the municipal councils. Of course, we have to be concerned about the rules, and we have to be concerned about fairness, but I do not think we have any greater claim to being concerned with rules or fairness than do municipal councillors.

The suggestion has been made that we should make sure bylaws are put in place to deal with these matters. Of course we would want that because many of us here are citizens in municipalities and would want that as electors in those municipalities. I have not seen any indication in my dealings with municipal councils in this territory, especially the larger ones who have, as a result of some improvement in significant capital budgets, any hesitation to put proper procedures and rules in place. Those rules will evolve in the territory and will be improved over time as mistakes are made and experienced is developed that the Member for Kluane talked about. That is quite proper.

It is my impression that contrary to what was indicated by one Member opposite, there are very good relationships between the territorial and municipal government now. The attitude of non-interference in municipal decisions by this territorial government is welcomed by councillors around the territory. That is what they have told me. I do not hear the kinds of complaints that I used to in my days as an alderman in this city.

The directions and trends are welcomed by most people in this House, by most municipal politicians and by most citizens. For that reason, I have no hesitation whatsoever in joining the mover of the motion, my colleague and friend from Klondike, the Minister of Community and Transportation Services and the Member for Kluane in supporting it.

Motion No. 38 agreed to

Speaker: Bills Other than Government Bills.

BILLS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT BILLS

Bill No. 101: Second Reading

Clerk: Second reading, Bill No. 101, standing in the name of Mr. Webster.

Speaker: Is the hon. Member prepared to proceed with Bill No. 101?

Mr. Webster: Yes.

I move that Bill No. 101, entitled An Act to Amend the Highways Act, be now read a second time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Member for Klondike that Bill No. 101, entitled An Act to Amend the Highways Act be now read a second time.

Mr. Webster: I travel the Klondike Highway on a rather frequent basis. Now that spring has arrived and the snow has melted, I cannot help but notice and be offended by the litter, beer bottles, pop cans, paper bags, plastic bags, oil cans, plastic containers of every size and shape, et cetera that has been strewn over this highway over the past several months.

The problem of litter on our highways is not confined to just the Klondike Highway. Litter defaces all our highways as well as roads within towns and city limits. It is not by chance that Whitehorse City Council has declared May to be community clean-up month.

This is a problem that is of concern to many Yukoners. This morning, on CBC radio, we heard a plea from Whitehorse resident, Sandra Beckman to make the Yukon a cleaner place. She suggested that consumers pay a deposit on all cans and bottles to ensure that they would be returned to a depot for recycling.

When the Member for Kluane and I travelled the territory as members of this Legislative Assembly’s Select Committee on Renewable Resources, we heard many complaints at public hearings about litter. I would like to quote briefly from page 24 of our report on this subject. “One other area requiring improved enforcement that is of common concern pertains to litter. At least one and often several individuals at each meeting expressed dismay at the unsightly condition of the Yukon’s roadways, pull-offs, day use areas and campgrounds. Profusion of paper, can and bottle litter is a deplorable eyesore, which spoils not only our scenery and perception of the pristine wilderness, but in many cases puts man, beast and the environment at risk.”

As a result of these representations, the select committee made two recommendations. We recommended that a deposit of 20 cents on wine and liquor bottles be introduced. I am pleased to report that within a year of this report being tabled, a deposit of 25 cents was levied on such bottles.

As a result of such action, the appearance of wine and liquor bottles along the highways has decreased dramatically. A second recommendation called on the Government of the Yukon to launch an education campaign promoting a litter-free environment. Committee members suggested that our government must take an active role in fostering an anti-litter consciousness, through an aggressive advertising campaign.

In my opinion, our government has taken some measures, which have had some positive impact. For example, the Division of Transportation has placed garbage containers at strategic points along highways, such as pull-over sites, rest areas, scenic lookouts, and services them on a regular basis. The Community Services Branch provides grants annually to municipalities to assist with their spring clean-up operations. I think, however, that more can be done by various departments of this government to improve our campaign to combat litter. For example, our tourism brochures and fishing and hunting synopsis could be used to promote a litter-free environment. Environment Week could be used to better advantage to achieve this end.

This government has taken another measure to deter littering. The Highways Branch has erected signs at various points along our highways which state: “up to $500 fine for depositing litter on highways”. Unfortunately, these signs have little effect as a deterrent, because no one has been charged with the offence and fined accordingly, as as there is currently no law, under any act whatsoever, be it the Highways Act, the Public Health Act, or the Motor Vehicles Act, that clearly states that it is an offence to deposit litter on our highways. Although the RCMP have had many opportunities to charge an individual with littering, and would certainly like to, they are powerless to do so.

The intent of this bill is to make the depositing of litter on our highway right-of-ways an offence, punishable with a maximum fine of $500. The amount of the fine is not only consistent with the information that already appears on our road signs, but also fits the crime. Litter on our highways is a territory-wide issue. The introduction of new measures designed to deter littering is a top priority of all Yukoners. This is why I have brought this bill forward today, instead of waiting for some time in the future when the Highways Act is reviewed and overhauled.

Yukoners want action now. I implore all hon. Members of this House to support their demands to help combat litter, by giving speedy passage to this bill.

Mr. Brewster: I have not got very much to say, but they all pointing at me, so I guess that I should get up again. I think that they all feel that I am enjoying my life here, being quiet all day, but I am up now. Of course I would have to agree with the bill, because I sat on the select committee with the hon. Member from Dawson. However, I would have to disagree with him on the one thing that he did say, that litter barrels are always picked up and cleaned. I can understand why he would say it, sitting on that side of the House, with four Ministers sitting below him, but the facts are that they are not picked up. My friend, the raven, gets in there and he takes that stuff and moves it down the road, so that it is scattered all over.

I will say, in all fairness, however, that it has become better every year and during the summer, when they have young people working for the department, the barrels are cleaned up a little better. On Sunday, I drove from Haines Junction to my place and there must have been 20 ravens having a lot to eat. They had it scattered all over. People will not keep places clean if the places are not clean when they get there; it is a fact of life and we all know it. Anybody who has been to Disneyland know that this is a fact of life. The little birds there that get anything to eat have to come on the table with you, because there is not a crumb laying around, and there are lots of little birds there. If you watch people, nobody leaves their trays there, or anything, they are put back where they are supposed to be. I found that in restaurant businesses also. If you keep your washrooms clean, they will stay clean. If you are not clean, other people give up and do it, and this is what happens with these garbage cans. They get full, the tourist comes along and tries to throw one on there and it falls off - where is he going to put it? He leaves it there, then, and pretty soon the raven gets it, and away we go.

I certainly agree with the bill and I have no problem with looking at it and agreeing with it completely, but I think that the Member for Klondike is quite right. The government has to be a little more strict with their cleaning up, too. They put these barrels out to collect garbage - good - but then they should collect it and not let it pile up, because the ravens sure love that. The ravens leave the garbage dumps and come down because it is a little cleaner there; they are not dumb. They know where to get it and then they scatter the plastic around.

Mr. McLachlan: I have never heard such a pile of garbage in all my life.

If the government Members would stop throwing these garbage and refuse bills at us, we would have a chance to discuss important economic things, such as economic development and tourism potential around Dawson City - things like this that might be a great benefit for the riding of the Member for Klondike.

When I proposed a private Member’s bill, it had a lot more feeling and emotion and was designed to correct a social wrong that was prevalent in the territory. It had to do with the issue of home owner grants, which is much more related to the current problems. Unfortunately, it ran into an unfeeling, difficult, intransigent Minister of Justice who, for whatever reasons, decided he was going to toss the bill out. I believe he could not handle the content of the bill and had no way of effectively coming back and saying it was wrong.

I wondered why the Member proposed a $500 fine. I wondered about $5,000. Nobody would dare throw away a Big Mac wrapper at that price. I wanted to hear the Member talk about the number of investigations that had been carried out for potential prosecutions that had not been able to be recorded, but he did not give us that figure.

I would like to propose that the Members opposite consider the idea that has been put forward in the Province of Manitoba that, at least until eight days ago, was a great basket of NDP support until the great red tide washed in and put the orange, brown, green, or whatever the current wishy-washy colour is at the moment, down into third place oblivion.

I would like the Members opposite to think of the idea of the Province of Manitoba, which was promoted with a great deal of success by having the people throw their garbage into orbit. What they did there was to design an orbital type of garbage container, with a slide-up door that was closed so the ravens could not get at it. Think of the work potential. Think of the jobs created in the territory. We could either manufacture these by hiring an extra 100 welders or, if the demand is great enough, we could even start our own orbit plan. We could export them out of the territory, et cetera, ad infinitum.

The most important thing is that we would have an orbit every 10 miles, and there is some 18,000 kilometres of Yukon Government highway. We recently debated a motion in this House, put forward by the Leader of the Official Opposition, about the construction of extra pull-outs. Each one of the pull-outs would have an orbit, and people would be able to throw away the oil cans, the garbage cans, the pop cans, whatever the garbage in the truck was, into orbit.

As the Member for Kluane has indicated, if they are not dumped, they often pile up and spill over. I would propose that, in the winter time, all the employees of the Department of Renewable Resources whom we lay off when the campgrounds are closed, be then hired to go around and burn or dump them. Instead of coming down with the heavy hammer all the time, perhaps the Members opposite could be a little more imaginative and think of other ways by which the garbage could be contained, instead of saying “we are going to haul you up in court, fine you, string you up, chase you around, and collect the fine”. I suggest the Members use a little more imagination when they bring forward a private Member’s bill such as this.

Motion agreed to

Speaker: May I have your further pleasure?

Hon. Mr. Kimmerly: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speak