Whitehorse, Yukon

Tuesday, April 3, 1989 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

We will proceed at this time with Prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will now turn to the Order Paper.

Introduction of Visitors?

Are there any Returns or Documents for Tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have for tabling a response to a question by the Member for Porter Creek East regarding a key-cutting issue.

Hon. Ms. Joe: I have the legislative response to a question asked by the Member for Riverdale South on March 9.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?

Petitions?

Introduction of Bills?

Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?

Notices of Motion?

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr. Brewster: I give Notice of Motion

THAT it is the opinion of this House that the Government of Yukon should proclaim one week to be known as Trapping Awareness Week in recognition of the contribution of the trapping industry to the Yukon economy and trapping is a way of life.

I give Notice of Motion

THAT it is the opinion of this House that the community clubs, associations and volunteer groups have become so burdened by excessive government regulations and bureaucratic red tape that individuals are now being discouraged from participating in such groups; and

THAT this House urges the Government of Yukon to reduce the amount of paperwork these volunteer organizations have to do by streamlining government procedures and revising existing regulations and eliminating unnecessary requirements.

Speaker: Are there any statements by Ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

1989 General Property and School Tax Rates; Comprehensive Review of Property Tax Regime

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am pleased to rise today to announce the general property and school tax rates for the 1989 year. I am also confirming a comprehensive review of our property tax regime to take place over the next year.

Under the Assessment and Taxation Act, the Yukon government is the general property taxing authority for all areas of the Yukon outside of municipalities. In addition, the Yukon government is the sole taxing authority for school taxes; although the municipalities collect school taxes on properties within their boundaries, on behalf of the Yukon government.

I am very pleased to announce that there will again be no increase to the tax rates this year. Nineteen eighty-nine will be the fifth consecutive year that tax rates have not been increased.

I am also very pleased to announce that we will be making a special, once-only reduction of school taxes on agricultural properties this year to hold the average taxes on that class of property to last year’s level. The assessments on many of the agricultural properties were adjusted this year in light of new information about market values. Without the adjustment, the new assessments would have resulted in significant increases in the actual taxes levied on those properties, even though the tax rate had not been changed. The tax rate on agricultural properties in future years will be determined as a result of the comprehensive review of the tax regime that I mentioned and will be further considered as part of our overall agricultural policy, which is currently being developed.

The general property tax rates for 1989 will be as follows: 0.67 percent for the communities of Beaver Creek, Carcross and Ross River; 0.56 percent for the communities of Burwash Landing, Destruction Bay, Old Crow and Pelly Crossing; 0.47 percent for all other rural areas of the Yukon.

The school tax rates for 1989 will be as follows: 0.33 percent for residential property;  0.20 percent for non-residential property other than agricultural property; a special one-time rate for agricultural property of 0.05 percent.

The Yukon government’s long-standing taxation policy has been criticized by various interest groups, and representative bodies. Seniors, agricultural land owners and rural businesses have all made representations for lower taxes or special concessions; while municipalities and municipal taxpayers have raised concerns that some Yukon government tax rates are set too low. The municipalities are particularly concerned that tax rates on properties in the peripheral areas are often much lower than the rates in the municipalities.

While we cannot resolve the concerns of one group without considering the effect of changes on other groups, my department will therefore be completing an extensive review of all property tax policies over the next year. The review will assess a broad range of property tax matters and will solicit public comment. It is my intention to begin the public consultation process this fall and, depending upon the results of the consultation, I am hopeful that the review will be completed in time for establishing the 1990 tax rates.

Mr. Phelps: In response to the Ministerial Statement, I would like to say that the rates may have remained the same for five years, but the assessments of most properties in the rural and municipal areas have gone way up. People are paying far more tax now than they were last year or the year before in many cases. Everybody is shouldering a much heavier burden.

The planned reduction on the school portion of the tax for agricultural properties will alleviate the problem, to some extent, being faced by particularly those farmers in the area of Hootalinqua North who have just received the unpleasant news about the increase in the assessed value of their property. As a result, some of them were facing increases in their taxes of 200 to 300 percent. Now the increase will not be as great.

This is an ad hoc way of dealing with a problem. It is certainly not acceptable that this is the way that policy should be handed with regard to special taxation rates to encourage various parts of the private sector in the economy to expand and produce more and encourage the kind of investment that is required for a fledgling industry such as agriculture.

The Minister mentions that they are going to start a comprehensive review of our tax regime, which is to take place over the next year. I am really upset that something has not been done before now. We were led to believe that such a review has been underway over the course of the past number of years. A year ago or more, I put forward a motion in this House regarding the issue of reducing property taxes for unserviced commercial ventures in the rural areas of Yukon, most particularly the highway lodges that do not receive services from this government. They provide their own power, they provide virtually all their own services, and every time they make improvements to offer a better attraction to the tourists who travel through Yukon, they get penalized with higher taxes for simply fixing up their business and making Yukon a more attractive place to visit.

When I put forward that motion we had a debate in this House, and as I recall, the then Minister of Community and Transportation Services reluctantly changed his mind and supported the motion, but I also indicated at that time that there had been a review ongoing for some time. It is long overdue. Many Yukon residents and business people will feel that they have been mislead by this government; I feel they have and I just hope that we can see some policies forthcoming that will make some sense of the tax regime. Thank you.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I thank the Member for his remarks. I should point out, with respect to reflecting a decrease in the tax rates, that even though assessments have gone up, tax rates have been reduced in the categories I outlined. This government has taken a very responsible approach to the increase in assessments of all properties and accordingly reflected the assessment increase by a tax rate decrease, so that in fact the actual taxes that are applied will be, on average, similar.

The Member refers to a review beginning and I should advise  the Member that in fact the review is underway. I have announced that I will be completing that review and my intention is to have that review complete in time for the next taxation year. The review is certainly in a state of partial completion and over the course of this summer and fall, through public consultation, it will be finalized.

With respect to a number of other categories of tax assessment increases, I should note for the Member that this government will be bringing forward legislation to see home owner grants increased by $100 to most homeowners and by $150 to seniors.

Certainly what will be taking place in the course of the next number of months will be the assessment of various policies, some of which reflect an ad hockery transition from the years of the previous administration; they will be addressed in some consistent and equitable fashion. It is my intention to try to deliver that coherent policy before the next taxation year.

Speaker: This, then, brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD:

Question re: Hyland Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Phelps: With regard to the sale of Hyland Forest Products, the Government Leader has repeatedly refused to open the books regarding the sale and provide us with copies of the actual sale agreements. Has the government asked Shieldings whether it would have any objections to the Minister tabling the actual sale documents in the House?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I have not personally asked the question of Shieldings, but I am reasonably sure the question has been raised. In any event, I will find out if it has been raised directly with the other parties to the transaction.

Mr. Phelps: Would the Minister go one step further? Would the Minister fax a letter to Shieldings asking whether it would have any objections to his tabling the sale agreements in this House?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I do not know whether I would fax a letter or make a phone call. In any case, we will communicate.

Mr. Phelps: Would the Minister table a copy of the full response from Shieldings to this request?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will report to the House whatever the response is.

Question re: Hyland Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Phelps: Has the Minister asked the Indian consortium whether it has any objections to tabling the sale agreements in the House?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I personally have not put that question to it.

Mr. Phelps: Will the Minister ask that question in writing?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will communicate with the Indian development corporation for that purpose.

Mr. Phelps: Will the Minister table a copy of his written communication and a copy of the reply in the House?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will report the response to my communication when I receive it.

Question re: Hyland Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Phelps: With regard to the sale, the Minister has said that part of the purchase price - namely, $1,650,000 - is for logs and inventory. We know a large number of logs in the yard at Watson Lake are rotten, are ridden with beetles or are otherwise unsuitable for processing. What was the amount of write-off on the inventory to arrive at the figure of $1,650,000?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I do not have the figure on the amount that was written off. I can tell the Member what I told him previously, that the $1,650,000 figure was an independent evaluation made at the time of the sale.

Mr. Phelps: Would the Minister table in the House the amount of the write-off and the calculations used to arrive at $1,650,000?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I would be happy to provide the House with an explanation of the process by which the $1,650,000 figure was arrived at.

Mr. Phelps: Will the Minister in his response provide the House with the actual cost of the inventory of logs in the yard?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will do the best I can to answer that question. I am not sure that the question can be answered in exactly the way it was framed but I understand the intent of the question and I will provide the Member with an answer.

Question re: Hyland Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Phelps: Can the Minister advise us now or in due course as to what is going to be done with all the worthless logs that are presently in the yard? How are these logs going to be disposed of by the new corporation?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will not for a second accept the premise of the Leader of the Official Opposition’s question, but if he is seeking to establish what we have done with any logs that are not part of the sale transaction covered by the $1,650,000 price, I will be providing the response to that question as well.

Question re: Hyland Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Devries: My question is for the Minister responsible for the Yukon Development Corporation.

Last February the Government Leader told a group of Hyland Forest Product employees in Watson Lake that if the new company, Yukon Pacific, does not go ahead with the new $6,000,000 sawmill, this government would be forwarded the money by Yukon Pacific and the Yukon government would itself build the mill. My question to the Government Leader is: would he tell this House on what he based this statement?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: Absolutely nothing, because that is a totally inaccurate description of what I said.

Mr. Devries: Could the Minister possibly explain what he said, then?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I made a number of statements, but in general terms I described the make-up of the shareholdings of the new company and the intentions of the new company in terms of building a new mill, the fact that the jobs would be higher quality jobs than the ones at present at the mill, given that they would involve new equipment and new technology, that as a result training would be required which this government was prepared to underwrite and that we believe the mill had a very good long-term future.

Question re: Yukon Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Devries: I will go to a new question, also to the Minister responsible for the Yukon Development Corporation.

According to the 1988 YDC Annual Report, a $65,000 a year management fee was paid to Jack Sigalet. However, in a June 22, 1988 newspaper article, the corporation’s executive director said the YDC would pay new management, and I quote, “...a normal fee no higher than we were paying before.” Yet, according to my sources, I understand Carroll-Hatch was paid $12,000 per month, or $144,000 per year. Does this mean that the first manager received money over and above the $65,000?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I do not know what it means, because I do not have those numbers at my fingertips. I will take the question as notice.

Mr. Devries: In the same newspaper article, it states, “If the new manager has to leave the community for some reason, the firm will send a qualified replacement”, and yet this new manager was managing two sawmills at the same time and was in Watson Lake for one week and, the next week, would be at a mill in Revelstoke. He also took a month’s holidays in December and the beginning of January. There was no replacement sent. Would this not have been a breach of contract?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: The Member opposite is making an assertion about the contract. I do not know whether he has special or privileged knowledge of that contract. I have not personally seen that contract, therefore I cannot comment on whether the preamble to the question he has asked is accurate. In any case, I will take it as notice.

Mr. Devries: Will the Minister be prepared to table this information in the House?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I have already answered the question previously about commercial confidences. The Member should know by now that I am not at liberty to do that without the permission of the other parties.

Question re: Yukon Forest Products joint venture

Mr. Phillips: I have a question in relation to the interim operations of the mill. In a report from Mr. Woodhouse to the board of YDC, YDC agreed to contribute $550,000 to the lease costs of the temporary mill and $100,000 for start-up costs while the new mill was being built. Why would YDC agree to pay $550,000 to lease a temporary mill when a mill would only cost $250,000 to purchase outright?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: The new mill that is being purchased is not going to cost $250,000 outright, but is going to cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of $600,000. The amount of $565,000 that YDC is paying out to lease a temporary mill is so employment can be maintained at the plant while the new mill is going to be located in the community. If we were not to do that, the consequence would be to lay off the mill employees.

Mr. Phillips: The Government Leader was obviously not listening to the question. When I asked the question, I talked about the temporary mill and leasing it for $550,000. A temporary mill only costs $250,000. Why did they decide to purchase for $550,000  the type of temporary interim mill we needed, rather than purchase one for the $250,000?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I am not sure I can confirm that the temporary mill the Member is talking about costs $250,000. Having heard the Member previously make assertions of this kind that were subsequently proven to be false, I would want to check that out before I responded to it.

Mr. Phillips: Could the Minister bring back to the House the following information? Who will Yukon Pacific Forest Products be leasing this mill from? When will it be on site?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will take the question as notice of a written question.

Question re: Service contracts

Mr. Lang: I have a question for the Minister of Government Services that has to do with the service contracts that are to be made available to this House by April 1. We had some discussions with respect to this particular issue the last day we sat. As the Minister knows, we are talking about $2 million to $5 million. These are tenders that are not publicly tendered; they are strictly service contracts, and the public has no idea how this money is being spent. It is a major concern to the general public.

On March 30 the Minister said he expected to review the contracts quite closely and he understood that they would be ready the first week of April. Can he confirm they will be ready this week?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Further to the discussion between the Member and me in Committee, I sought the advice of the department on the availability of the material. I am advised that some of the contracts are in the final year end wrap-up stage. They had set a target date for departments to have all that material in by April 7. Shortly after that, they will be able to produce the material.

Mr. Lang: The difficulty I have is that we are dealing with monies that have already been expended through supplementaries. Delays of this kind are saying that the public does not have a right to know. That information may well be tabled at a time when we are not in session. Would the Minister make the undertaking to expedite the work being done to compile this material and have it ready for tabling on Monday of the forthcoming week?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I will give the Member the undertaking that I will do everything humanly possible to speed up the availability of the contracts. I should point out for the Member that I checked the records for last year and they were not tabled until April 18, so an earlier statement by the Member that suggested they were available to the House the first week of the month is not accurate.

Mr. Lang: Firstly, we were dealing with a Minister who has left the government. The side opposite even found him difficult to deal with on any given issue at any given time.

Secondly, I would point out that in the year previous those documents were provided to this House on April 9. Not only for 1986 and 1987, but for all the years back to 1982. All we are asking for is last year’s. I challenge the Minister to further research that.

As we noted, it is all in the computer now and is just a matter of pushing buttons. It is nothing complicated; the format is all there.

In his reply the Minister said that he expected to review the contracts quite closely. Will the Minister assure this House that as soon as he receives the agreed-to listings he will expedite copies to us on the same day so we will have the opportunity to go through them as well?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I find it remarkably interesting that the Member opposite would chastise me for wanting to review the documents when in the same breath he is asking that he can have them in advance so he may review them. I will give the Member the undertaking that I will expedite the availability of those documents to the earliest opportunity, once I get them.

Question re: Business incentive policy

Mr. Lang: On a different topic, I have a question for the same Minister, and it has to do with the Yukon business incentive policy that has been such a continuous disaster, from the point of view of the valued-added concept that was implemented by the previous Minister. Can the Minister verify for this House that he has had discussions with organizations such as the Chamber of Commerce respecting this issue, and whether or not the government has taken a revised position regarding the present policy?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member will be pleased to know that I had no difficulty dealing with the previous Minister.

On the subject of the value-added policy, I am also pleased to tell the Member that yes, indeed, I have had a number of discussions with the various interested parties affected by the value-added policy. I have taken the position of exploring possible options for revision. I have met with the labour organizations. I have met with the Contractors Association and my staff have met with the Chamber of Commerce, so those discussions are currently in progress and ongoing. I hope that, through the consultation process that we have initiated, we may have a new option to bring forward.

Mr. Lang: The difficulty that small businesses find themselves in is that you have a policy in place that is not working. Quite frankly, it provides no incentive for people to go into business because it requires them to put all of their information to the government in black and white. The government can then do whatever it wants with the information. My concern here is that this policy has been under review for well over a year. Earlier, the Leader of the Opposition was talking about the taxation policy and the lack of action being taken.

My question to the Minister is this: when does he expect a decision to be made in respect to the present business incentive policy, and when will it be changed?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: When I first met with the Contractors Association shortly after taking office, I advised the association that I was prepared to deal very expeditiously with this matter and would fast track it as much as humanly possible. I believe that the Contractors Association and the labour organizations and the chamber have undertaken to cooperate in that regard. I cannot make a firm commitment as to when this will be coming forward until we have the consultation process completed, which is probably nearing that stage at this very moment as we speak.

I should also point out to the Member that the policy in place now is simply workable because it is in place, and it is being applied in the awarding of contracts.

Mr. Lang: Obviously there is concurrence from both sides of the House; the present policy that is in place is not working. The Minister is nodding his head in agreement. I want to assure the Minister that he will get full support from our side for changes to that policy, if it goes back to the concept of the lowest tender.

In the process of consultation, is the basic principle that a tender should be awarded to the lowest tender, except in cases where there are very extreme reasons why it should not?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: That is a principle at the base of the policy. I cannot preclude or second guess the outcome of the final state of the policy, because I intend to respect the input from the organizations I cited earlier that we are in full consultation with. On that note, I am looking forward to their response. For the Member’s information, my department and I provided an options paper to the organizations. I will send it to the Member if he likes. It provides the various options we are looking at. I suspect what will come out of the consultation in short order will be a compromised workable policy.

Question re: Business incentive policy

Mr. Lang: One of the major problems facing the business community at present is that some major capital projects are going to be tendered by the Government of Yukon during the next two months. Could the Minister undertake to provide firm decisions with respect to revisions to this particular policy prior to the end of May?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am pleased to say that was an announced desire when I first met with the Contractors Association and the other groups. In light of the construction season beginning in the next month to two months, it was a desire to provide any changes within the period that the main contracts would be let. A short answer is: that is a goal. I can only make a firm commitment after I have some feedback from the organizations.

Question re: Senior citizens’ medical for drivers’ licence

Mr. Brewster: My question is to the Minister of Health and Human Resources. Is it the policy of the government that, although doctors are out to Haines Junction at least four times a month, senior citizens must travel to Whitehorse to a doctor to get their medical for a drivers’ licence?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I think it is extremely unlikely that the government has a policy stated in those terms. If the Member opposite will provide me with the facts of his complaint, I will check into it and respond quickly.

Mr. Brewster: I can assure the Minister that this has already happened to a senior citizen in the Kluane area. Would the Minister look into this and correct an obvious injustice to the rural senior citizens?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: As soon as the Member opposite has provided me with the particulars about this matter, I will take it up with the department officials and respond as soon as I can.

Mr. Brewster: If the Minister does discover that this is the policy for rural Yukoners, would the Minister be prepared to try and change this regulation?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: If I discover there is a policy like that described by the Member, my first step will be to find out what the reasons for that policy are. I will then take the representation by the Member under consideration.

Question re: Property tax arrears, Human Rights Commission

Mrs. Firth: I have a question for the Minister of Justice regarding the delinquent payment of taxes from the Human Rights Commission. The Minister tabled a legislative return today saying that the commission did not receive a tax notice from the City and that the notice was sent to the old address at 202-4114 Fourth Avenue. Can the Minister tell us why the Human Rights Commission did not send a change of address notice to the city when they moved to their new location?

Hon. Ms. Joe: I do not know why they did not do that, nor did I ask them. I will bring that information back.

Mrs. Firth: In that legislative return, it was also stated that the commission was unaware of the outstanding account. Why were they not aware, and who is keeping the books when this was overlooked and the change of address was not sent to the city?

Hon. Ms. Joe: I will bring that information back.

Mrs. Firth: It has been established that the mistake here is on behalf of the commission, not the city. There still remains the outstanding question as to whether or not the taxpayers are going to be expected to pay for the negligent and careless financial management of the commission. Can the Minister answer that question, please?

Hon. Ms. Joe: The question the Member has asked is in regard to whether or not the commission is going to be paying for the outstanding penalty. As is mentioned in the response, the Human Rights Commission will be speaking with the city in regards to those outstanding charges, and we hope they will be able to come to some final decision as to how that is going to be paid.

Question re: Property tax arrears, Human Rights Commission

Mrs. Firth: This question is directed to the same Minister in regard to the same matter. It is not the practice that all individuals, groups or companies who have outstanding penalties to pay because they have not informed of a change of address, get an opportunity to talk to the city regarding their tax penalty. It does not seem to be a negotiable item.

In the comments to the public and the media, the Minister told everyone there were rules under the Financial Administration Act that cover what the government should do in these circumstances. Could the Minister point out to us where this is covered in the Financial Administration Act? I cannot find any particular area that would cover this.

Hon. Ms. Joe: I checked that this morning. The section that it falls under is section 22(2). That states that, “Where regulation provides for the payment of interest on a debt obligation of the government, the payment of interest shall be deemed to be authorized by the vote or authority where the principal amount was paid.”

Mrs. Firth: I would raise issue with that particular clause. I have the Financial Administration Act in my hand, and it is the same one the Minister was quoting from. I believe that is in regard to interest, but not in regard to what this issue is, which is a penalty that is being charged by the city to the commission.

Will the commission have the authority to pay that penalty, or will the Management Board or Cabinet have to issue an order-in-council, or issue permission for the expenditure of those funds?

Hon. Ms. Joe: The information that was given to me this morning was the information I had relayed to you in regard to the question from the Member for Riverdale South. There is provision in this act for them to make that payment.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister should just read the clause, because it is in regard to interest on such debt obligations of the government. It is not in regard to penalties.

In light of the careless financial procedures of the commission, can the Minister tell us whether or not we will be receiving an advance copy of the financial statements of the Human Rights Commission prior to them appearing here in the Legislature to account for the expenditures of their department?

Hon. Ms. Joe: I would first like to say that I referred the information to the House. This information was given to me by the Department of Finance.

In regard to whether or not there will be an advance copy, I would certainly be willing to find out whether or not that will be done. If it can, I do not see any problem.

Question re: Social services council

Mr. Nordling: I have a question for the Minister of Health and Human Resources. The government’s Throne Speech delivered March 8 indicated a new social services council would be created during this year’s legislative sittings. I would like to ask the Minister when it will be set up and who will sit on this new council?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: The social services council will be established soon. Exactly who will sit on it is not known yet. We have begun the process of consulting with some groups as to its composition and mandate. I intend, following this session, to prepare a submission for Cabinet. Once Cabinet has approved the structure and the membership, there will a public announcement following.

Mr. Nordling: Has anyone started drawing up the terms of reference or the mandate as yet? This was announced in the Throne Speech, and I would have thought that some prior planning and thinking would have gone into it.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: In general terms, the mandate has been discussed by my Cabinet colleagues. No precise and detailed mandate has been drafted yet and will not be until we deal with that Cabinet submission.

Mr. Nordling: I would just like to pin the Minister down a bit more on when “soon” will be, because I had heard that we were going to have a mental health act soon, and then soon again, and we have not seen one yet. Can the Government Leader be a little more specific on the timing?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: Assuming a normal sitting of this House, I would expect that I would be able to have a Cabinet submission ready by May and an announcement about the council in June.

Question re: Storage shed

Mr. Phillips: I have a question for the Minister of Government Services regarding the now famous YTG storage shed next to the government building. I have heard that the total cost of this project may exceed $15,000. Can the Minister confirm this, and can he tell us exactly how much this storage shed  has cost us?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have been advised that indeed the project’s total cost is $15,000.

Mr. Phillips: It seems like a rather expensive storage shed. Is this storage shed insulated, wired and plumbed for the $15,000? It seems rather expensive for a 12 x 20 foot storage shed.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: It may sound expensive but it represents construction with the use of local materials and is quality construction. I would like the Member to come with me to tour it with a government engineer.

Mr. Phillips: There are not too many Yukoners who could afford the Taj Mahal for a storage shed. It appears that may be what we have here. The building is complete and still looks rather out of place sitting beside the YTG building. When will it be moved and where will it be set up?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The building will be moved as soon as weather conditions permit better transport of the structure. I understand that it will be moved into an area for use by the Tourism Branch.

Question re: Storage shed

Mr. Phillips: The Minister of Government Services just indicated that this $15,000 storage shed will be used by the Minister of Tourism, who just fell off his chair after learning that interesting fact.

I would like to ask either the Minister of Government Services or Tourism, who now has the $15,000 building in his lap, what it will be used for?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member knows that the building is a demonstration project, demonstrating the use of local materials. It is quality construction and demonstrates how 80 percent of construction like that can be done locally. It is a valuable demonstration project. The building will be used by Tourism in the Marwell area for some special material storage. They expected to construct a building of a similar sort for storage and they are now going to acquire this one.

Mr. Phillips: I hope we do not get into the habit of giving each department a $15,000 locally-built storage shed. It would be rather expensive.

If the Minister wants Yukoners to see the new $15,000 storage shed he can move it in the next two or three weeks and take it to the Trade Show so 6,000 or 7,000 Yukoners can have an opportunity to view it. He can show it at the Trade Show before he moves it onto location for the Department of Tourism. Will he take that under advisement?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I certainly take the Member’s representations quite seriously and will investigate the opportunity, and call public invitations for the suggestion.

The Member should be aware that the demonstration project that he refers to is one of several that have been directed by Government Services in the past to demonstrate the use of local materials. It is a policy of this government to encourage that wherever possible. Following up on a previous question by the Member for Porter Creek East, the whole subject of local materials, in terms of building them into a value-added policy, is under serious consideration by the Contractors Association, the labour organizations and the Chamber of Commerce. In terms of a local demonstration of what can be done with materials that are manufactured and grown in the Yukon, the building has been very well received by the industry.

Mr. Speaker, if you do not stop me soon I will continue to talk.

Mr. Phillips: We on this side have no problem with local materials. The question is about how much money you spend on a 12 x 20 foot storage shed. I think $15,000 is excessive in any Yukoner’s mind for an uninsulated shed. This storage shed has turned into a hot potato, and it has now shifted into different courts.

The initial plan for the storage shed was to store the local garden tools for around the government building. What are we going to do with the storage of these tools? Do we have another $15,000 addition that will be built on to this building to store the garden tools? Is that coming up in the near future?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am pleased to respond to the Member’s inquiry about the storage of garden supplies and equipment, which are used to keep the grounds in immaculate order. I will tell the Member quite bluntly that, when I first inquired about the facility, I was advised that it was considered for garden supplies and materials. At that time, it turned out that tourism was planning to construct a similar facility, albeit cheaper. I believe the two branches have struck agreement whereby this facility will be used for what would have been needed by the tourism branch.

With respect to the garden materials and supplies, I understand that some discussions are currently underway with White Pass. I do not know what the final state of those discussions are, but I understand there is a facility on-site that will not require any relocation of buildings for the storage of those supplies.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now lapsed. We will now proceed with Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I move the Speaker do now leave the Chair, and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair: Committee of the Whole will now come to order. We will have a brief recess.

Recess

Chair: Committee of the Whole will now come to order. We are on Bill No. 33, Third Appropriation Act, 1988-89. We will begin with general debate on Health & Human Resources on page 40.

Health and Human Resources

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I am today introducing supplementary estimates for the Department of Health & Human Resources for the year 1988-89. The supplementary before for $3,054,000 represents a seven percent increase over the Main Estimates. The main items in the supplementary are as follows: $1.8 million is accounted for by revised projections relating to out-of-territory, in-patient hospital services provided to Yukoners, and $416,000 is for additional medical travel services; $363,000 is for the establishment of residential and day programming services in the Yukon for severely disabled adults who have previously been cared for in British Columbia at the Woodlands Institution - I am sure all Members know that that institution was recently closed by the provincial government and this jurisdiction, like others, had been planning to patriate those clients and bring them back home in furtherance of the ideals of community living, and the decision to proceed was forced by the decision in British Columbia; the amount of $255,000 is for increased spending on health and hospital transfer planning, which is offset by a 100 percent recovery from Canada; and, $168,000 is to support placement of children with severe physical or behaviour problems in out-of-territory children’s facilities for specialized assessments and treatment services that cannot be provided here in the territory.

I know that expenditure recoveries are also projected to increase overall by $413,000, or four percent.

The capital supplementary in this department is due to the revote of funding for construction of a secure facility for young offenders. The major changes in the Capital Budget, as well, are the revote of $1,224,000 and the recovery of $1,304,000 from the federal government to complete the construction of the secure facility for young offenders, which is due to be complete in July of this year,

There is $100,000 to support extended care facility planning relating to site, infrastructure and related technical matters.

With that introduction, I am prepared to proceed through questions that Members will inevitably have, either in the general debate or in line by line review of the supplementary estimates. I have taken note and have a response to some questions that Mr. Nordling asked at the previous supplementary in respect to health costs. I can either answer those questions now in the context of a general discussion of that item, or I could wait until we get to that line and provide that information, as well as the other information I have about this supplementary then.

Mr. Nordling: I would appreciate receiving those answers, perhaps as we go line by line. I do not have much for general debate, and we have already expressed our concerns from this side with respect to the controls in this department when we did discuss Bill No. 25, Fifth Appropriation Act, 1987-88. The Minister has made a commitment to do analyses to see what the problem is, and to meet with local physicians to get the costs under control. We do not have to go into that with respect to this supplementary.

I would like to express a concern with the fact that this out-of-territory travel for patients seems to have been identified as an area in which there are over expenditures or it is out of control and something that should be looked at. In the Speech from the Throne given on March 8, it was stated that health services will be improved with better provision for medical travel outside the territory.

My concern is that this government is identifying that as the evil that has to be corrected. Perhaps it is not. Until the analysis has been done and the local physicians have been met with, I do not think this government should be taking steps to try to limit that area. We may discover that, in that area, we have poor budgeting. For the benefit of Yukoners, out-of-territory travel to see specialists is very necessary and important. The problem may be that too many people are running to the doctor every time they have a runny nose or a scratch. I am not saying that is the case but, until we have done an analysis and looked into this, I do not want the government jumping to conclusions.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I take the point by the Member and I take it seriously. I want to assure him we are not defining the out-of-territory medical travel as an evil. There are a number of problems associated with it that do require us to begin discussions with local physicians, as I indicated earlier, as well as to do the analysis in the next few months, which we hope will lead us to some intelligent conclusions about what is happening in this area.

We have some particular problems in this field that make it very difficult from an accounting and budgeting point of view. For example, billing procedures from some provinces, in particular, will have to be improved. In the case of British Columbia, for example, we have had billings as late as one year after the actual event. The Member will understand that makes it extremely difficult not only to budget but, also, to track costs.

The introduction of late of some high-cost technologies, particularly in the area of neo-natal, and intensive care and coronary surgery, would drive up individual bills quite considerably. But there is not yet a consistent pattern in terms of the demand on the service or on the number of calls and the Member will understand that with a small population we can have a few cases that can drive up the costs, especially if they happen near the end of the year, which makes budgeting particularly difficult.

I take the Member’s proposal about the budget review very seriously but also, to be perfectly consistent with his previous suggestion, want to make sure we do the review before we make the necessary changes, both with the physicians, which may be necessary in terms of local substitutions if they are possible, but, as well, with the budgeting in this field.

The Member suggested that there may be excessive utilization by patients of conventional medical services. I do not know that we have the analysis that would prove that yet, but that too will be an area that I would want to discuss with local physicians and do some analysis province by province and province by territory comparisons. The department is already gathering the numbers and endeavouring to do a first cut of the analysis to enable us to begin to be able to have some discussions in the next few months about that question.

Mr. Nordling: I hope that this can be done within the next few months because we are a small jurisdiction. I think if we get on top of it we will be able to control it a lot better than some of the provinces have. Our neighboring state, Alaska, is having the same sort of problems.

I would like to ask the Minister what the approval process is for out-of-territory travel. I am not sure if he has that information. I would like to know if it is done by the individual physician or if there is a policy or someone who approves it on behalf of the government.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: There is initially a review by an individual physician. There is a subsequent, unfortunately, after-the-fact review by the medical officer of health, which does not help except in the retrospective sense of making a judgment about whether this was an appropriate decision. As Members know, Dr. Walker was in that post until he recently passed away.

There is also a committee that reviews the patterns of expenditures and referrals by physicians, something in the nature of an audit committee. But again, there are some programs and some referrals that are simply matters for which we get bills, but it is that pattern of referrals, the kind of cases that get referred, that we will be wanting to sit down to talk about with the physicians.

Mr. Nordling: Who sits on the review committee that acts as an audit committee?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I could respond later with the actual membership, but I believe it includes the medical officer of health and a local physician. There may be another member or two who I do not know about off the top of my head but I will get that information for the Member.

Mr. Nordling: I would like to thank the Minister for that and I look forward to getting it.

Perhaps when we get to the line item on health services the Minister might have this information, but I would like to know if he has a dollar figure on how much money was due to these late payments and late billings. Did we receive a breakdown of that?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: It may take a little bit of time to gather that information but I will undertake to do so. The point that I made was that some of the billings are slow and erratic. The worst case scenario was delayed payments from British Columbia extending up to 12 months from the date of service.

We are attempting to have those billing procedures modified and increase the amount of the detailed information provided electronically on hospital services used by Yukoners, and work with the provinces involved to improve the provincial billing practices. I think the average delay under the present system is about three months and the Member can see that that would produce some problems in terms of keeping track of expenditures during the course of the year.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister bring us the information regarding how much of that $1 million-plus would be due to the late payments and the late billing. Even though it is a three month period of time, I think it would be useful information.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I will do that. I can report to the Members of the House on the composition of the Medical Travel Audit Committee. It has included the medical officer from Health and Welfare Canada, two Yukon physicians as representatives of the Yukon Medical Association and the director, Mr. Davidson, from the Department of Health and Human Resources.

Chair: We will now proceed with line by line.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Community and Family Services

Hon. Mr. Penikett: The $220,000 being requested is broken down as follows: $168,900 in additional funds is required for placement and children’s services activities for child welfare placement and support services; $115,680 in additional funds for specialized services located in British Columbia are currently providing treatment services to children in care who have severe behavioral problems often compounded by sexual abuse. All available treatment services have been tried and exhausted for a child before placement in a specialized out-of-territory centre is considered. The children in question range in age from 13 to 17 years and on average in any one month period there are three children from the Yukon receiving services outside the territory;  $52,300 is also requested as additional funding for long-term foster home arrangements that require an additional payment to compensate the family for very special and very severe medical needs of the child.

At present, five children, aged 10 to 17, with special needs for severe medical reasons have been placed in British Columbia, four with family members. The medical condition of these children vary. One example would be a spastic quadriplegic child who has lived in one foster home setting for her entire life. Another 11 to 12 year old is currently in a pre-adoption placement in Ontario.

Fifty-six thousand dollars is requested for emergency funding of the Child Development Centre to enhance the staff salary and benefits package to resolve hiring problems directly impacted on the services delivery. Because of the demands on that facility, and because of staff turnovers and vacancies for five instructional staff, the additional funds were required to be able to recruit the adequate and qualified staff. These over expenditures for direct treatment services to children have been offset by a small amount of $4,000 in the administration of the community and family services branch; therefore, the net request is $220,000.

Mrs. Firth: In the Operating and Maintenance Budget last year, there was quite a large increase of 19 percent in the area for the placement of children services. The Minister is asking for almost $169,000 now. Is this something that is becoming more of a concern to the Minister? Are we placing more children or is it because of specialized services that are needed? Did we not need those services before? Could he be more specific and pinpoint why these costs are going up so much?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: There are two things. First, the general trend here and elsewhere in the country is toward community living, to try to bring children with special problems back into the community in a family setting or at least a group home setting as much as possible. The trend is toward deinstitutionalization.

However, there are some clients of the department whose needs are so serious, and the attendance of those needs so expensive, that we cannot reasonably offer that service in the territory. I would hope that in the long run a smaller number of people will be going outside to these facilities, but the cost of meeting the needs of these children on a per case basis will be very, very high. It is high now and I expect it will continue to be.

Community and Family Services in the amount of $220,000 agreed to

On Social Services Program

Hon. Mr. Penikett: The Supplementary Budget increase of $363,000 is requested here for this branch to fund the provision of community-based residential and day programs in Whitehorse for adults with mental handicaps who are returning to the Yukon from the Woodland School in British Columbia.

Members may know that the Woodland institution in B.C. has provided long-term residential and treatment services to several adult Yukoners with severe mental handicaps for quite some time.

The repatriation project that this money provides for is necessitated because British Columbia has implemented the de-institutionalization plan that will see the closing of the Woodlands institution and the relocation of all its residents. The deinstitutionalization is a process in which the major facilities for mentally handicapped persons are being phased out - I think, all across the country - in favour of smaller, community-based resources and particularly and increasingly in the home communities from which these people come.

The decision to repatriate a total of five clients in this past fiscal year, who have been residents of Woodland for many years, was made after a lot of consultation with the client families and medical professionals in this community.

The expenditure estimates represent the first-year funds to require both 24 hour residential and instructional daytime programming focused on maximizing client independence through life skills training. This additional funding will be used in conjunction with the $197,100 dedicated for the provision of contract rehabilitation services to Woodland clients in the Main Estimates approved so far. I will break the numbers down a little bit. There is $311,554 requested for the development of residential and daytime programming suited to the needs of clients planned for repatriation, and $51,229 is requested in personnel to provide salary and benefits to one term counselor dedicated full time to the repatriation project.

Social Services Program in the amount of $363,000 agreed to

On Health Services

Hon. Mr. Penikett: In my introductory remarks, I explained the breakdown of this number is $1.8 million for out-of-territory in-patient hospital services, $416,000 for out-of-territory medical travel pursuant to the Travel for Medical Treatment Act, and $255,000 for health transfer activities. One hundred percent of that number is recoverable from the federal government.

Mrs. Firth: What were the health transfer activities for $255,000?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: As a result of an agreement with Canada to pay for transfer planning, approximately $160,000 is in contract dollars for the completion of various analyses, including an operational review of the Whitehorse General Hospital, examination of options for nursing accommodations, a review of the various options about management and governance of the hospital, and $59,500 for personnel costs for one secretary and one planning officer to support the health transfer planning activities.

Health Services in the amount of $2,471,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures in the total amount of $3,054,000 agreed to

Chair: Are there any questions on Operation and Maintenance Recoveries?

It is clear. We will move to page 41.

On Capital Expenditures

Chair: We will begin the line by line.

On Alcohol & Drug - Facility Planning

Hon. Mr. Penikett: There is an increased level of funds required for this project, as the steering committee work has proceeded on the basis of results provided by the Alberta Addiction Commission’s resouce personnel on secondment to social services during the previous fiscal year. A study to provide facility need projections is to be funded under this money in order to proceed with further definition of service requirements and design limitations around Alcohol and Drug Services facility planning.

Mr. Nordling: Perhaps the Minister can just tell us what the plan is for the facility. I noticed that in the 1989-90 Budget, we have still got money for facility planning. I wonder what the government has in mind in this area - whether we are going to build a facility or what exactly we are looking at over the long term.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: Principally, we are talking here about the successor facility for the detoxification facility that we now have, the Detox Centre. As the Member knows, the other facility that presently work in this field, Crossroads, is operated by an independent society with which we have financial agreements. There are as well, at the moment, other facilities being contemplated by various groups including Indian bands in the territory. In that new environment there will be, no doubt, a larger community voice and certainly more community-based services. We have to prepare for the changes that will result and for the limits to the existing facilities as they are now.

Mr. Nordling: Do we have plans to build our own facility that we are going to run, either in addition to the Detox Centre or a new detox centre?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: We are not planning to build any other facility other than what may replace the Detox Centre, but the Members should understand there is no capital decision and no capital plan around that. There are apparently some inadequacies with the present facility.

Alcohol & Drug - Facility Planning in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

On Alcohol & Drug - Replacement Equipment

Hon. Mr. Penikett: This decreased because the money budgeted here for furniture and equipment was not all needed because the furniture and equipment was in a sufficient condition to get them through the year.

Alcohol & Drug - Replacement Equipment in the amount of a recovery of $7,000 agreed to

On Northern Health Services

Hon. Mr. Penikett: This reflects a reduced billing from the federal government for equipment and vehicle purchases as well as minor construction in community of public health facilities by the Northern Health Services, Health & Welfare Canada, pursuant to our cost-shared agreements.

Mr. Nordling: Almost $700,000 of the $1 million budget is quite a bit. I just wonder if the Minister can tell us why we missed by so much in this line item?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: What happened in this case is that what was put in our budget originally was the original request by National Health & Welfare. Subsequently, we had reason to go over the request in detail and question some of the needs. As a result there was a reduced expenditure.

Mr. Nordling: I am prepared to clear that item, but maybe that is an area that we should be concerned about if we did not go over it and question it and just budgeted $1 million because that is what they asked for. Maybe that is one of the areas in this whole department that we should be careful with in doing the budgets.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: It is partly a problem of the timing sequence in terms of their budgeting and ours, but this problem will be resolved ultimately with the completion of the Health transfer.

Northern Health Services in the amount of a recovery of $687,000 agreed to

On Communications Disorders Equipment

Communications Disorders Equipment in the amount of a recovery of $2,000 agreed to

On Extended Care Facility

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I think I have talked about this before in the House. The original allocation was for $1.00, which was based on the uncertainty of the funding relationship with Canada with respect to the Whitehorse General Hospital replacement project and the close linkages in the planning schedules and the anticipated shared-cost services. In the year under consideration, the decision was made to proceed with the planning options respecting the extended care facility in isolation of the hospital. It had been prompted by further delays in the decision by the federal Treasury Board regarding the Whitehorse General Hospital project. The $100,000 will permit completion of a number of the contracted reviews that I believe I mentioned earlier respecting the environmental suitability of the proposed site, site infrastructure, soil suitability, et cetera, alternative site options and the feasibility of existing and future support service integration.

Obviously it is a difficult decision. If we proceeded to build the extended care facility in advance of the Whitehorse General Hospital, we would not be able, at that moment, to take advantage of a common heating plant, for example, and that would be a decision of some financial consequence for the operations.

In the long term, we think it would be in everybody’s interest to get as much integration of the operating costs of both facilities as possible. That can only happen if they are built in something of a parallel time frame.

Mr. Nordling: I understood that there was a study done that would add the extended care facility to the existing building and then be part of a replacement hospital. Perhaps the Minister can use this time to report on how the Whitehorse General Hospital replacement negotiations are going in. In fact the whole question of the transfer of medical services from the federal government.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: During my short time as Minister, there have been several direct communications from the department to the federal authorities, including two letters that I have seen very recently from the deputy minister of the department to his counterpart in the federal government. We have, in the past, received some verbal assurances from a previous minister that the hospital would go ahead, but we have received no written confirmation from the present minister, and apprehension about what the next federal budget will contain is causing most of our advisors to take the view that unless and until we have a firm commitment from the federal government about the new hospital construction, we cannot proceed on the assumption that it is going to be built according to our preferred timetable.

Mr. Nordling: I would like the Minister to clarify this. Is he saying that unless or until we get a solid agreement with the federal government to replace the Whitehorse General Hospital as part of the transfer, the Government of Yukon will not go ahead with an extended care facility? My concern is that if the negotiations with the federal government bog down, we may not get an extended care facility for a number of years.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: We are not waiting for that decision, but the decision from the federal government does have some financial implications. If the federal government does decide to go ahead with a new general hospital, it will be possible for us to achieve some operating savings from an extended care facility that we would build by some integration of the physical support and perhaps heating and operating costs.

If the federal government decides not to proceed with the hospital at this time, then there are options for us, including operating in association with the existing hospital. Another option might be a free-standing facility for which we would have to pay the full operating costs. We would not be able to build on or plan on the basis of an integrated operation with a new hospital.

Mr. Nordling: Is the Minister prepared at this time to make any commitment to Yukoners that one of these options will be exercised within a certain time limit? Can the Minister say that we will have an extended care facility in Yukon within five years or within the term of this government? I am afraid that if there is no commitment made, this may go on and on. Four years pass very quickly.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: That is true. The decision to actually build the extended care facility will have to be made in the context of other competing demands for capital dollars. I have previously indicated in this House that, as much as I would like to see this facility built soon, there is the substantial ongoing problem of its operating costs. This has not yet been satisfactorily addressed by the department.

Mr. Nordling: Could the Minister tell us when the problem will be addressed? I would like the Minister to give some indication. I have been asked by constituents and other Yukoners when we are going to have an extended care facility. I believe it was announced by this government three years ago that Yukon was going to have an extended care facility. We are in 1989 now and it does not appear that we are any closer than we were three years ago.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: I have been asked by constituents about an extended care facility for all the years that I have been in this House, going back to 1978. I remember constituents of mine who had concerns of this kind and wanted to see such a facility here. The Member voices a concern that we will seem no closer. I will remind him that in the Mains for this year there is a substantial sum of money for planning, which is an expenditure that will bring the project considerably closer and will give us the information that will allow us to make a firm decision about a construction date.

Mr. Nordling: I do not want to debate this issue forever but the Minister got up quite emotionally and told me that to build a $6.5 million facility costs $600,000 to design and that is what was going to be done. Now, my understanding is that we do not even know what sort of facility we are going to have designed, whether it will be free standing in association with the existing facility or in association with a new hospital.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: That is not quite the case. In terms of the interior plans for the extended care facility, it will be much the same whether it is free standing or whether it is in association with the new hospital.

Certain physical features, though, the connection with the electrical system, the water system and the heating system of the hospital, imply some quite expensive options, depending on what the federal government decides, and we have no decision from the federal government.

Mr. Nordling: Perhaps the Government Leader could put it simply so I can pass it on to the people that have asked me because I do not want to go away from the House today and say that we have no commitment from the Yukon government as to when we have an extended care facility.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: At the conclusion of the debates on my estimates, I will undertake to write the Member opposite a letter explaining in detail the steps and initiatives we are taking to advance the construction of an extended care facility. I hope that the letter I provide will be in sufficient detail and positive in tone that he will be able to provide some comfort and assurance to those constituents of his who are looking forward to this much needed service.

Mr. Nordling: I would appreciate that very much and look forward to receiving that letter.

Extended Care Facility in the amount of $100,000 agreed to

On Community Health Facility Review

Hon. Mr. Penikett: This amount of money was to provide for the evaluation of community public health and hospital facilities in rural Yukon facilities and preparations for the transfer of health services from the federal government to the territorial government. The actual topic has been the subject of some discussion previously in the House.

The evaluation report provides projected demand levels for various service components by community recommendations respecting facilities, structural deficiencies for the required service types and levels and options for integration of health service program delivery, to realize operating efficiencies and recommendations for schedule modifications to meet various service delivery objectives.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister give us some indication about when some final decisions will be made regarding all the studies and reviews that have been done?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: There will be a round of consultations following the completion of this report. It is part of the planning process associated with the transfer negotiations. Previously, there have been questions or motions from the Member for Watson Lake about facilities in that community. I have had inquiries of course from the Member for Mayo and the Member for Klondike about what will happen with those facilities.

There are a number of Capital and Operating financial decisions that we will make following transfer to expand or improve the facilities. That will all have to be put into the capital plan, as the Member knows, and then put into the ongoing planning process with the federal government. The report itself was basically to facilitate the negotiations about the transfer, principally, and then secondarily to discuss what kind of improvements in services and structures we will need down the road in those communities.

Mrs. Firth: We have this report. Unless there is some kind of time put on the use of it, when we want to use it four years down the road, it will be outdated and we will be spending another $200,000 to do another one. I cannot be that optimistic about the transfer of health services from the information the Government Leader has given us so far. Is there any time line put on the use of the information that has been compiled, which has cost the taxpayers a considerable amount of money? When can we expect to have some answers to the specific questions about the hospitals in the communities?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: Whether or not the transfer proceeds, we will, in the next year, of necessity, be making some decisions about those facilities. By the time we have the next Mains, I would hope we will be able to talk about our response to this report in more detail than we can now. I hesitate to commit ourselves to schedules, timings and specifics, in the absence of the Capital Budget and the further consultation we are going to do with the communities about what their wishes are with respect to some of these questions.

Community Health Facility Review in the amount of $152,000 agreed to

On Equipment - Operational

Hon. Mr. Penikett: This is to provide for office furnishings as a result of the relocation of the health insurance function from within the main administrative building.

Equipment - Operational in the amount of $2,000 agreed to

On Young Offenders Facility

Mr. Nordling: I would like confirmation that the revised vote of $3,224,000 completely finishes the young offenders facility.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: Yes, that is the intention of the department.

Mr. Nordling: Is that the total cost of the project, or does the Minister have figures as to what was expended before this budget so we have a total cost of the facility?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: That is the total actual cost of the facility.

Mr. Nordling: There may be a simple explanation, but I see the capital recoveries revised total is $1.9 million. I am not aware of what agreement was made for the recovery. Is that what we expected, or have we spent more than we expected and are recovering less?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: That is a negotiated agreement. I cannot remember what the actual percentage was that was finally agreed to. I can report back to the House. As there often are with these kinds of agreements, there were some allowable expenses and some that were not. In the end, there may have been a formula on which the settlement with the federal government was based. I will take that question as notice and report back to the Member.

Mr. Nordling: I am prepared to clear that with the undertaking that we will have a report back.

Young Offenders Facility in the amount of $1,224,000 agreed to

On Young Offenders Equipment and Furnishings

Mr. Nordling: It is not a large amount but it is about 50 percent over what we budgeted so I would like to know what was miscalculated or added.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: This is for the purchase of equipment and furnishings required for the delivery of the Young Offenders Educational program. This is actually not at the secure facility but the open facility so the kids can continue to be schooled and educated there.

Young Offenders Equipment and Furnishings in the amount of $15,000 agreed to

Health and Human Resources in the total amount of $807,000 agreed to

On Young Offenders Facility

Young Offenders Facility in the amount of $1,304,000 agreed to

Department of Justice

Hon. Ms. Joe: I have line-by-line explanations. If there are any questions in general debate, I will speak to any of them now.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Administration

Hon. Ms. Joe: The total of $51,000 breaks down to $29,000 for the job evaluation study second level appeals. This was a forced-growth item identified during the preparation of the 1988-89 Main Estimates. A significant number of appeals heard within the department resulted in retroactive pay and salary increases that we could not absorb.

There is $12,000 for casual assistance due to a heavy workload and secretarial staff vacancies. A floating casual secretary/receptionist was hired to assist wherever needed in the department. There was $5,000 for the deputy minister hosting the annual meeting of the Attorneys-General in September. There was $5,000 to cover Judge Lilles’s expenses for the sale of his house when he moved to Whitehorse, since it was an expense not covered by the moving or the travel directive. Management Board approval was required for that. That makes a total of $51,000.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister give me the explanation again for $5,000 for expenses incurred to move Judge Lilles here? What was that for again?

Hon. Ms. Joe: That was the real estate fees incurred for the sale of his home.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell me if it is common practice that we would pay for new employees’ real estate fees when they are moving to the Yukon to seek employment here?

Hon. Ms. Joe: These expenses have only, as I understand it, been permitted for the judges.

Mrs. Firth: Cannot the Minister tell us if this has occurred in the past? Have we as Yukon taxpayers paid the real estate fees of other judges who have moved to the Yukon territory?

Hon. Ms. Joe: There was an expense paid to former Judge Ilnicki, I believe for the same amount, and for Judge Lilles. I understand that the practice has stopped.

Mrs. Firth: Was this just a perk that YTG gave to new judges coming to the Yukon?

Hon. Ms. Joe: Apparently there was a misunderstanding on the part of the judges that this was an expense that was available to them and there was an agreement that it would be paid at that time. Then, when Judge Lilles moved, it was paid to him as well. It is not a policy any more.

Mrs. Firth: It was obviously a policy of the government before then if they were doing this. I would like to know if it was written in the contracts that the judges were given this and, if it was a misunderstanding of theirs, who created that misunderstanding? Someone had to have given them a commitment to pay them for something as astonishing as real estate fees.

Hon. Ms. Joe: Apparently in the hiring of the judges there was a misunderstanding on the part of the Judicial Council.

Mrs. Firth: So what the Minister is saying is that the Judicial Council had it wrong and it made a commitment to the judges when they hired them and that therefore the government was committed to follow through with the Judicial Council’s promise to the judges?

Hon. Ms. Joe: That is basically it.

Mrs. Firth: Thank you. Can the Minister tell us how much we paid for the real estate fees of the other judge so that we can obtain a total cost of this practice that has been stopped?

Hon. Ms. Joe: It was $5,000 for former Judge Ilnicki.

Administration in the amount of $51,000 agreed to

On Court Services

Hon. Ms. Joe: The $111,000 breaks down as: $22,000 for a surplus person year transferred to administration to cover expenses for casual assistance, Attorney-General meeting, and Judge Lilles’s expenses; $47,000 in increased funding was requested for a fifth deputy clerk during the forced growth exercise and the preparation of the 1988-89 Mains. A person year and funds were requested for the fifth deputy clerk in courts because the number of circuits had increased. The request was deferred until the first supplementary; the funds were approved but not the person year.

There is a decrease of $93,900 for the salary and benefits for Judge Barry Stuart transfered from the salary allotment to other O&M to be applied against the cost of deputy judges; $168,900 for deputy judges’ expenses, the net cost after applying Judge Stuart’s salary of $75,000. The reason the costs are high this year is because Judge Lilles was seconded to the Fuel Prices Inquiry, for which ECO was going to pay. They ran out of money, so we had to absorb the cost. Also, Judge Ilnicki resigned, leaving us with a vacancy that has yet to be filled.

There is a $61,000 increase for the reprinting of court forms. The Criminal Code was renumbered, resulting in changes in section numbers quoted on forms used by the courts. All forms had to be reprinted, which was a significant cost as the forms that are used by the RCMP and all other agencies are supplied by the courts. There is a decrease of $50,000, a transfer to Solicitor General for prison liaison officer. The original funding was approved by Management Board in the court services program, as the contractor was to be CYI and would become part of the native courtworker budget. Since the prison liaison officer was to be located at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre, it was felt the money should be transferred to the Solicitor General program, for a total of $111,000.

Mrs. Firth: I asked the Minister for a break down of costs regarding the judges that have to be brought in from out of the territory. I believe we were given a Legislative Return that had in excess of $160,000 extra it had cost. Can the Minister give us a breakdown, taking into account the additional people and time within the department for rescheduling of court schedules and rescheduling of the court circuits to the communities? I would like a general picture of what it is costing the YTG in extra costs because we do not have our full complement of judges here.

Hon. Ms. Joe: The total cost of deputy judges to date as of March 15 is $180,550.74. The total voted to date is: Main Estimates, $17,200; the first supplementary, $168,900; for a total of $186,000. The unexpended to date is $5,549. Judge Stuart’s lapse in salary is $93,900, and the net cost to date of deputy judges is $86,650.74.

Mrs. Firth: Is the Minister then indicating that there have been no extra costs incurred in overtime or additional person years where employees had to come in to do extra work to accommodate the rotation of the judges, that everything has been able to go along without incurring any more expenses for operation and maintenance?

Hon. Ms. Joe: I do not have the specific figure. I have it in the Legislative Return. There was a figure in there, I think, of about $7,000 that indicated the normal overtime that clerks spent in the courts and also the overtime that was spent in the communities during the courts there. I have it on my desk. I will table that in the House tomorrow.

Mrs. Firth: I would appreciate getting that information. Can the Minister tell us, when the temporary judges come to the Yukon, does the government provide accommodation for them in the form of a furnished apartment, and where is that accommodation?

Hon. Ms. Joe: We do have an apartment. We have had the apartment for awhile. I am not exactly sure of the address, but I can have that information back.

Mrs. Firth: Who is considered to be the owner of that apartment? Does the Department of Justice have that exclusively for their use, or do they have to make arrangements through Government Services for that kind of facility?

Hon. Ms. Joe: The Department of Justice rents it.

Mrs. Firth: So the Department of Justice rents it on an as-needed basis. Perhaps you could give us some details as to the furnished apartment and just how it is utilized and what we doing with it once our full complement of judges is here in the Yukon.

Hon. Ms. Joe: The apartment is rented by the month. I think we have a lease for a year and the payment for that is $750 per month at this time. Once we have a full complement of judges, we will let it go.

Court Services in the amount of $111,000 agreed to

On Attorney General

Hon. Ms. Joe: Of the amount of $167,000, $50,000 was for the costs of the inquiry and second inquest into the suicide of William Blasdell at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre after the allegations of corrections officers in the press that the first inquest missed some valuable information. An investigator was hired to conduct an inquiry. As a result, the second inquest was held in August/September. The costs are those incurred to transport witnesses and their accommodations and expenses. Jurors’ fees and expenses are also included. For $117,000 - that was used to hire outside council for the solicitors’ branch due to workload restraints or to specialized knowledge requirements. Several outside council were retained on certain cases. A detailed list is attached of these contracts and I have them here. I could table them in the House. I have only got one copy.

Mr. Phillips: With respect to the Blasdell suicide, there were at least two guards who testified under oath that they administered CPR to Mr. Blasdell from the time he died until the time the ambulance crews arrived. This was proven to be false in the course of the case. There was evidence presented by the Crown. Can the Minister tell me if either one of those two guards have been reinstated and if any of them have, why?

Hon. Ms. Joe: They have not been reinstated. I have information here about them. All three employees appealed their suspension and dismissal was recommended. Two of the appeals were heard in October, 1988, and the decision upheld - the recommendation for dismissal. The other person withdrew his appeal. The third person was to serve a suspension of 17 days. He was reinstated. So, one was reinstated and the other two were not.

Mr. Phillips: Is the one who was reinstated one of the guards who testified under oath that he administered CPR to Mr. Blasdell? I believe there were two guards who gave that false testimony.

Hon. Ms. Joe: I cannot give that information. I would have to bring that information back.

Mr. Phillips: I would appreciate the Minister bringing that information back to the House.

Does the Corrections Department have a strict policy with regard to this? If someone gives false testimony under oath, is there automatic dismissal by the department? How is it handled?

Hon. Ms. Joe: Each case is different. It would depend on the circumstances.

Attorney General in the amount of $167,000 agreed to

On Solicitor General

Hon. Ms. Joe: For $25,000, the approval by Management Board was given for special costs incurred by the department for the outside treatment of a sex offender. A joint submission was prepared with Health and Human Resources and it was Management Board’s decision that Justice absorb these costs in the current fiscal year but that a one-time-only base adjustment of $50,000 be approved in the 1989-90 fiscal year to allow for the completion of this treatment. The transfer of a prison liaison officer in the amount of $50,000 has already been explained under court services.

There were search and rescue costs in the amount of $10,000. The RCMP policing agreement does not cover the costs of the RCMP when they are called out to locate a missing person. This summer there were incidents of tourists and hunters who went missing and the RCMP were called to locate them.

That is the total: $85,000.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister just give us the total amount of the Management Board decision for the special treatment of the sex offender? I understood her to say that $25,000 had been identified here and there had been an amount identified in the 1989-90 O&M of $50,000? Does that make the total $75,000 for the treatment of this individual?

Hon. Ms. Joe: It was a total of $50,000.

Solicitor General in the amount of $85,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance in the amount of $414,000 agreed to

On Operation and Maintenance Recoveries

Chair: Are there any questions on O&M recoveries?

On Public Legal Education

Public Legal Education in the amount of a recovery of $70,000 agreed to

On Capital Expenditures

Chair: Are there any questions on Capital Expenditures?

On Recording Equipment

Mr. Phillips: Last year we purchased some recording equipment. I am wondering what the additional $7,000 is for.

Hon. Ms. Joe: The $7,000 revote was requested to allow for some upgrading to the court’s sound system. The existing system was not adequate to allow the court reporters to record what went on in the courtrooms using our system. A local contractor was hired to balance the sound, do some minor re-wiring and change some of the microphones.

Mr. Phillips: Minor re-wiring, balancing the sound and changing the position of some microphones costs $7,000?

Hon. Ms. Joe: It is a little bit more technical than that. I do not have an explanation of how technical, but I am sure it was. If he wants a full report I will certainly bring it back.

Mr. Phillips: In the Legislature we pass these items based on the information we are given. I was just told that it was changing around a few microphones, some minor wiring and balancing the sound. It seems to me that you could do that a lot less expensively than $7,000.

Hon. Ms. Joe: There was the wiring, of course, not just moving around microphones and there also was the purchase of some microphones.

Recording Equipment in the amount of $7,000 agreed to

On Microfiche Equipment

Microfiche Equipment in the amount of a recovery of $3,000 agreed to

Capital Expenditures in the amount of $4,000 agreed to

Chair: Is it the wishe of the Committee to take a break?

Some Members: Agreed.

Chair: We will have a fifteen minute break.

Recess

Chair: I call Committee of the Whole to order. We will begin on page 47 with the Public Service Commission.

Public Service Commission

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

Hon. Ms. Joe: The Public Service Commission has a supplementary vote of $3,370,000. Of this amount, only $45,000 stems from controllable items and this relates to a Management Board approval for an employee to go on educational leave. The remaining $3,325,000 is from two non-controllable items: leave accruals and workers’ compensation. This was based on a period six variance report. Now it appears that the PSC will lapse dollars on some controllable items.

Mrs. Firth: Which employee required education leave and why was it required that Management Board make a decision regarding a $45,000 expenditure?

Hon. Ms. Joe: The educational leave was for Wayne Jones from Education. He went to the University of Victoria for six months to get a masters degree in equivalency education. This is a two- year program but the only cost to PSC in the second year will be $900. Mr. Jones is using his annual leave to attend these courses next year.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could give us some explanation for the leave accrual and for the workers’ compensation expense? It is fine to say they were uncontrollable, but I would like some further explanation and specifics for the two items.

Hon. Ms. Joe: If we could go line by line I can give an explanation at that time.

On Recruitment and Training

Hon. Ms. Joe: The $85,000 was made up of: $20,000 to hire an additional recruitment officer during a peak period; $45,000 was for a Management Board approved education leave for an employee; and the $20,000 was the cost of a management development program that was not budgeted for. That was for a total of $85,000.

Mrs. Firth: Is the management development program for $20,000 a one-time cost? Is that a new program?

Hon. Ms. Joe: The $20,000 was used to develop two four-day modules for managing in a cross-cultural environment. It will be part of a course the 45 employees in the management development program will take. Depending on the results, PSC will consider offering these modules to other YTG managers, and it will be an ongoing course.

Mrs. Firth: What is the cost of that going to be? Should it be an ongoing program?

Hon. Ms. Joe: We do not have those kinds of figures here. On an ongoing basis, the additional cost would be minimal. We would be pleased to come back with the figures.

Mrs. Firth: I would be interested in having that. If the government is making a decision to take on a program, they must have done some analyses on what the recurring costs would be through the years. I imagine it would depend upon the number of employees taking the four-day module courses. I am prepared to wait for that information until we do the 1989-90 Operating and Maintenance Estimates.

Recruitment and Training in the amount of $85,000 agreed to

On Labour Relations

Hon. Ms. Joe: There was $18,000 underspent that resulted from a staff vacancy for part of the year. There was a $12,000 over expenditure, which was for the indemnification policy approved subsequent to the budget process, so nothing was budgeted for this. This makes a total of $6,000 under expenditure.

Labour Relations in the amount of a recovery of $6,000 agreed to

On Workers’ Compensation Fund

Hon. Ms. Joe: This was as a result of the death of a YTG employee, which caused a payout of that amount in April, 1988. It is something PSC has no control over.

Mrs. Firth: I did not quite hear what the Minister said. It was a YTG employee clause payout?

Hon. Ms. Joe: It was as the result of a death of an employee.

Workers’ Compensation Fund in the amount of $325,000 agreed to

On Positive Employment Program

Hon. Ms. Joe: There was the amount of $82,000 under, which was due to vacancies in the native training corps during the year. There was the amount of $48,000 over, which was projected costs for the positive employment program database project, which makes a total of $34,000 under.

Mrs. Firth: What exactly is the Positive Employment Program data base project that the minister just referred to?

Hon. Ms. Joe: The Positive Employment Program, along with the Statistics Bureau, is developing an employee data base that will contain data that will help the PSC establish the present composition of the three target groups - aboriginal people, women, and persons with disabilities - to monitor their future progress. This project was started later than was planned, and has used mostly internal resources to date.

Mrs. Firth: What is the anticipated cost of this program?

Hon. Ms. Joe: There was the amount of $48,000 budgeted for that. In all likelihood it would come into that range.

Positive Employment Program in the amount of a recovery of $34,000 agreed to

On Leave Accruals

Hon. Ms. Joe: This non-cash amount is estimated by Finance and the PSC each year. The PSC has no control over this account. This budget item is required by the Auditor-General.

Mr. Lang: I would just like to ask the Minister one thing. In the previous debates on the supplements for 1987-88 I have asked the Minister if she could provide us with information about whether or not any employees have been dismissed over this past year? If so, how much has been paid out to those particular employees?

Hon. Ms. Joe: I apologize. I do have the information and it will be tabled in the House tomorrow. I should have done it today, but I do have it.

Mr. Lang: I would just like to pursue that a little further. Does that include all the corporations and any agencies of the government, direct or indirect?

Hon. Ms. Joe: Yes it does.

Leave Accruals in the amount of $3 million agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures in the amount of $3,370,000 agreed to

Department of Renewable Resources

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

Hon. Mr. Webster: My introductory remarks on the Department of Renewable Resources’s 1988-89 Supplementary No. 1 will be brief. As all the Members will note, the supplementary sum of $253,000 is being sought. Position reclassifications in the various branches of the department account for approximately $95,000. As positions are reclassified, the salaries paid to individuals occupying those positions are increased.

Another significant contributor to the needed budget adjustment are land claims negotiation related costs. These amount to $108,000.

Other major projects, such as the work being done on conservation strategies, Yukon Champagne-Aishihik Band participation in big game management planning in Zones 7 and 9, and the Mount Mye sheep mitigation project also account for a substantial portion of these requested supplementary funds.

I should point out that the funding for the conservation strategy work, $30,000, is fully recoverable for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, as is $26,000 for the Mount Mye sheep mitigation project. In the Capital portion of the Supplementary, $34,000 of the requested $50,000 is attributable to funds being transferred from the O&M budget for equipment, such as a boat and motor for Herschel Island Territorial Park.

Funds are also being transferred from the O&M budget to the Capital Budget to cover costs of equipment purchased for Yukon land use planning work. These funds are fully recoverable from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

Mr. Lang: Could the Minister tell us why they are asking for $108,000 for land claim negotiations, when any other costs incurred for land claims negotiations go directly to the Executive Council office?

Hon. Mr. Webster: These funds are needed to enable the department to provide adequate and effective support to the lands claims information process and negotiation process. This request is specifically for $58,000 for casual personnel costs, $10,000 for contract services, $20,700 for travel in the Yukon, and $19,000 for travel outside of the Yukon.

Mr. Lang: This is a lot of money: $58,000 for a casual position? What was that casual position doing?

Hon. Mr. Webster: It is more than one casual position. Senior officials of our department are needed, with their expertise, to provide information to assist the whole land claims negotiation process. Other people are being hired on a contract basis to do some of the work  in that same area that the senior officials cannot attend to because they are doing work on the land claims negotiation.

Mr. Lang: I just do not understand this. We were asked to vote $210,000 for the Executive Council office, over and above $600,000 that was allocated. Now, all of a sudden we are told that in Renewable Resources that there is another $108,000 attributed to the land claims negotiations. Why is the Department of Renewable Resources charging this to their department, unlike other departments? Or are there other hidden costs that we are not being told about in other departments?

Hon. Mr. Penikett: At the time of the Executive Council vote, I did explain, I believe, in answer to questions from the Member for Riverdale South, that there were ongoing costs to a number of departments involving land claims negotiations and as we moved into the next stage of community negotiations there would indeed be more. The costs that are ascribed to the land claims secretariat vote in the Executive Council Office are for the costs directly out of that secretariat and the costs of people who are seconded full time to that process from other departments.

Renewable Resources, particularly, has played a very large and continuing role in the land claims negotiations, providing advice, recommendations, support and research about particular wildlife areas. A number of senior officials in that department have been involved in that process. They have been involved enough that their ongoing work has had to be set aside. I believe that the amount of money that is described in this estimate is to cover the cost of back-up or replacement efforts by people who have full time jobs in Renewable Resources but who have devoted a significant part of their time in the last year, and will I expect in the coming year, to the land claims negotiation process.

Mr. Lang: There is some talk about the International Biological Program coming into effect in the Yukon. I would like to know if the Cabinet has ever made a decision whether or not that particular program would apply to the Yukon.

Hon. Mr. Webster: I would like some clarification from the Member as to what the International Biological Program is.

Mr. Lang: Basically it is a conservationist organization. It is going into various jurisdictions to designate certain areas unsuitable for any thought of development. Every now and then this International Biological Program crops up, and I was wondering if the Government of Yukon has ever been formally approached. If so, what response was given to that type of designation of areas? If the Minister wants to take the question under advisement, that is fine, as his department should be aware of it.

Hon. Mr. Webster: I have to be very frank with the Member and tell him that this is the first I have ever heard of this organization. If it has approached our government on this matter, I will certainly inform the Member.

Chair: We will now proceed line by line.

On Administration

Administration in the amount of $26,000 agreed to

On Policy and Planning

Mr. Lang: I would like to ask the Minister what exactly is happening with the Auxiliary Conservation Officers Program that was put into effect about five or six years ago.

Hon. Mr. Webster: Unfortunately, not a lot is happening with that program, which I think is a fine concept. The reason for that is the amount of time that is required to train somebody adequately to do the job in a thorough manner. I would hope, however, that there would be some renewed emphasis on that area as a way to get more people involved and cultivate their interest in dealing with hunting and fishing, particularly with emphasis on preventing abuses, in other words, poaching, of those resources.

Recently, we have had a great deal of interest expressed by two or three members of the public in each community. For that reason I am encouraged that there will some new emphasis placed on that program.

Policy and Planning in the amount of $89,000 agreed to

On Parks, Resources and Regional Planning

Parks, Resources and Regional Planning in the amount of a recovery of $92,000 agreed to

On Fish and Wildlife

Mr. Lang: Can we just have a rundown of exactly what that increase is for?

Hon. Mr. Webster: Sixty-four thousand dollars of that total figure could be attributed to position reclassifications in the department. Forty-three thousand dollars was for land claims negotiations related costs. Nine thousand dollars was for hosting and supporting the Canadian Wildlife Federation Annual Executive Meeting. Ten thousand dollars was for casual assistance to complete the lynx project. Twenty thousand dollars was for band participation in big game management, Zones 7 and 9. Twenty-six thousand dollars was for additional secretarial assistance in habitat and research. Thirty-one thousand dollars was for the Mount Mye Sheep Mitigation Project. Ten thousand dollars is the department’s contribution to the Canadian Wildlife Service to co-sponsor an annual youth conservation school.

There are a few items amounting to $4,000 or $5,000 each. If the Member wants, I can provide them. There was $5,000 for casual assistance to complete the Native Harvest Study. There was preparatory work in the amount of $5,000 to release elk, which takes place this week. Finally, there was $4,000 for the purchase of radio collars for bison that were released this past month.

Mr. Lang: Could the Minister provide us with a copy of the Native Harvest Study?

Hon. Mr. Webster: Yes, I will provide a copy of that.

Fish and Wildlife in the amount of $232,000 agreed to

On Agriculture

Hon. Mr. Webster: This is for position reclassification in the amount of $2,000; $15,000 were for increased costs of livestock control officers and poundskeepers; another $15,000  for co-sponsoring the Agricultural Symposium, which took place a couple of weeks ago.

Agriculture in the amount of $32,000 agreed to

On COPE

Mr. Phillips: There was a concern about some of the terminology in the COPE agreement regarding the river rafting on the Firth. I think the Minister knows very well what I am talking about. The wording in the agreement says it should be preferred status on the Firth River. It has been interpreted by Parks Canada to be exclusive status and use. What is the position of this Minister  regarding that? There have been representations made by our side as well as the government side, that other river rafting operations that have run the river before would like to work on it again. Parks Canada is presently not allowing that. Is the government prepared to make a representation to Parks Canada and strongly urge that it allow more than one operator on that river?

Hon. Mr. Webster: It is the position of this government that we, too, do not agree that preferred status means exclusive rights. We have indicated our desire to have it reinterpreted by Parks Canada. To that end, we have written the Minister, Lucien Bouchard, on the matter stating our position. Unfortunately, we have received communication from the Minister upholding his original decision, which interpreted “preferred status” as the “exclusive right”.

Mr. Phillips: Was the Minister aware that it was not the intent that “preferred status” mean “exclusive right”?

Hon. Mr. Webster: I am aware of that. That is why this government is protesting the interpretation by Parks Canada and will continue to do so. Fortunately, Mr. Bouchard has made a commitment to visit the Yukon this summer to look at a couple of matters that are quickly becoming hot issues in the area, such as ANWR and Kluane Park. At that time, this matter will be raised with him again.

Mr. Phillips: With respect to river rafting regulations or guidelines, the government has been doing some work on them,  talking to several groups and asking them about the type of guidelines they would prefer. Where is that right now?

Hon. Mr. Webster: I am not aware of the status of those negotiations with the groups to devise new regulations. I will take that question as notice.

COPE in the amount of a recovery of $34,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures in the amount of $253,000 agreed to

On Operation and Maintenance Recoveries

Chair: Is there any discussion on Operation and Maintenance Recoveries?

Mr. Lang: Is the government not recovering any money for the taking in of horses that are at large? If so, where is it reflected in the budget? Under the Pounds Act?

Hon. Mr. Webster: You are talking about the fines paid by people who are in contravention? I do not know where that would arise. It being in its first year of operation, I know there have been some recoveries, because some fines have been paid. I will get back to the Member on that.

Mr. Lang: What does “Conservation - DIAND” mean?

Hon. Mr. Webster: This is a recovery from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development for work done on conservation strategies: Yukon Conservation Strategy, $15,000; Old Crow Conservation Strategy, $15,000.

Operation and Maintenance Recoveries in the amount of a recovery of $118,000 agreed to

Chair: We will move on to page 53.

On Capital Expenditures

On Equipment Acquisition

Equipment Acquisition in the amount of $9,000 agreed to

On Wildlife Habitat Canada

Hon. Mr. Webster: This is a transfer of O&M funds to the Capital to cover the costs of some miscellaneous program equipment. It is fully recoverable.

Wildlife Habitat Canada in the amount of $1,000 agreed to

On Travelling Displays

Travelling Displays in the amount of $3,000 agreed to

On Book: Yukon-A Natural History

Mr. Lang: Perhaps the Minister could fill us in on this.

Hon. Mr. Webster: I am sorry, but my notes are deficient in that area. I will provide that information for the Member.

Mr. Lang: Since we are trying to expedite business, could the Ministers  ensure that their staff go through the commitments that have been made so we are given that information at the start of the vote when we deal with the Mains. We would very much appreciate it rather than us having to ask about this question and that question.

Hon. Mr. Webster: I appreciate the comment made by the Member opposite.

On Book: Yukon - A Natural History, due to the late start of the project, not all the work planned for this year was completed. It is completed now apparently.

Mr. Lang: Maybe I have missed something here. I am not as familiar with the project as the Minister. Perhaps the Minister could give a better description over and above the one line we received in the Main Estimates.

Book: Yukon-A Natural History in the amount of a recovery of $3,000 agreed to

On Herschel Island Park (COPE)

Herschel Island Park (COPE) in the amount of $34,000 agreed to

On Campground Relocation and New Development

Campground Relocation and New Development in the amount of a recovery of $8,000 agreed to

On Campground Rehabilitation & Reconstruction

Campground Rehabilitation & Reconstruction in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

On Heritage Rivers - 30 Mile Section

Heritage Rivers - 30 Mile Section in the amount of $3,000 agreed to

On Watson/Wheaton Resource Study

Watson/Wheaton Resource Study in the amount of a recovery of $12,000 agreed to

On Dempster Corridor Study

Hon. Mr. Webster: The Dempster Corridor Study additional $12,000 was required as a result of an under estimate in the cost required to develop the master management strategy for the Dempster Corridor Study.

Dempster Corridor Study in the amount of $12,000 agreed to

On Yukon Land Use Planning

Hon. Mr. Webster: This is a transfer of funds from the Operation and Maintenance Budget to cover equipment costs that were noted earlier. It is fully recoverable.

Yukon Land Use Planning in the amount of $33,000 agreed to

On Determination of Forage Productivity

Hon. Mr. Webster: Due to another late start in the project, in late spring last year, we were unable to complete all the work that was forecast for this year.

Determination of Forage Productivity in the amount of a recovery of $30,000 agreed to

Capital Expenditures in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

On Capital Recoveries

Capital Recoveries in the amount of a recovery of $71,000 agreed to

On Tourism

On Capital Expenditures

Hon. Mr. Webster: I am pleased to introduce Supplementary No. 1 for 1988-89 for the Department of Tourism. The Capital Budget has been reduced by $70,000 as a result of the transfer of the special events project to the O&M Budget. No corresponding increase results in the O&M Budget since the project was included in the original 1988-89 O&M Budget.

The only other net change in the department’s budget is the $34,000 increase in capital recoveries. The funds are to be received from the federal government - Energy, Mines and Resources - under the Enerdemo agreement that is monitoring the effectiveness and efficiency of the cold storage of artifacts method being used in the Old Territorial Administration Building in Dawson City. We will make public these findings. The agreement was not in place for inclusion in the 1988-89 Budget.

On Wilderness Resource Assessment

Wilderness Resource Assessment in the amount of a recovery of $9,000 agreed to

On Streetscape Development

Mr. Phillips: Where did the $7,000 get spent?

Hon. Mr. Webster: The $7,000 was spent this year in a number of communities where the streetscape program was completed: the communities of Teslin, Beaver Creek, Burwash Landing and Destruction Bay. Also, there is implementation in progress in Pelly Crossing, Upper Liard and Watson Lake. Some of these salary increases are for planning and design for the next projects, which are scheduled for Elsa, Mayo, and Keno.

Mr. Phillips: I am absolutely amazed that you can do all of those things for $7,000 and you took $15,000 to build a shed outside of this building.

Hon. Mr. Webster: It is a testimony to the resource of the department. I must remind the Member that these are increases; this is the Supplementary Budget to the amount already spent for these purposes.

Mr. Brewster: Up at Beaver Creek, the sidewalk down to the river was completely washed up last year. Were provisions made to put that back in or is that the end of that project?

Hon. Mr. Webster: I want to thank the Member for bringing this problem to my attention. I am sure it will be corrected in this season.

Streetscape Development in the amount of $7,000 agreed to

On Special Events

Special Events in the amount of a recovery of $70,000 agreed to

On Artifact Inventory/Catalogue

Artifact Inventory/Catalogue in the amount of a recovery of $10,000 agreed to

On Major Museums Development

Hon. Mr. Webster: The increase in transfer payments of $105,000 is for the Watson Lake museum: to undertake a planning feasibility study, $30,000; and, to purchase land for the museum $75,000. I am sure the Member for Watson Lake is aware of the situation.

Mr. Phillips: A year or a year and one-half ago, the Dalziel family approached the Government of Yukon about its small museum to see if the government was interested in purchasing that museum. Has anything happened on that?

Hon. Mr. Webster: This is the museum development budget for Dalziel House. The planning feasibility study is complete, and $75,000 has been reserved to purchase the land.

Mr. Devries: Would the Minister repeat that regarding the Watson Lake purchase of land for a museum? I have not heard anything about this.

Hon. Mr. Webster: Of the $105,000 increase, $75,000 is for the purchase of the land for the Dalziel Museum.

Mr. Devries: My latest understanding on the Dalziel Museum is that $60,000 had been spent on a study on whether we should buy it or not. We could have bought it for $80,000, and we still have not bought it.

Hon. Mr. Webster: Yes, the Watson Lake committee has decided against buying the property. In other words, the $75,000 will lapse.

Mr. Devries: Just for everybody else’s information, that is correct. We decided against it, as it would cost too much to maintain the building.

Mr. Lang: We spent $60,000 on a study, and we could have bought the whole property for $80,000?

Hon. Mr. Webster: As I indicated earlier, the feasibility study cost $30,000, not $60,000.

Major Museums Development in the amount of $105,000 agreed to

On Capital Maintenance

Capital Maintenance in the amount of $2,000 agreed to

On Heritage Inventory

Heritage Inventory in the amount of a recovery of $105,000 agreed to

On SS Tutshi

Mr. Phillips: What is this for?

Hon. Mr. Webster: The transfer of the Fort Selkirk project to the Indian band resulted in person year transfers to the SS Tutshi project. This $35,000 increase covers personnel costs as a result of this reallocation of person years. In other words, we moved a person year from one project to another.

Mr. Phillips: What is left to do on the S.S. Tutshi?

Hon. Mr. Webster: With respect to additional work, it is with some regret that I have to inform the Member that it is quite considerable. There will be corrections of some structural deficiencies, such as deterioration of the base of the aft key post, centerline keelson, transfer carrier and some work on the frames will be undertaken. I could not at this time explain what these things are. Other work at this stage includes replacement of portions of the bulwark, paddle wheels, longitudinal support timber, spronks and clamps and guards, hull planks, deck beams and stantions.

This is some of the work that has yet to be done on the S.S. Tutshi and what I have just read is the activity planned for this coming fiscal year.

Mr. Phillips: I thank the Minister for this information. It makes it very clear in our minds. How much is this expected to cost? Is this the final year of the project?

Hon. Mr. Webster: There is $200,000 planned for this activity and that will bring the total amount to a considerable sum, in the neighborhood of $1,480,000.

Mr. Phillips: Will it float?

Hon. Mr. Webster: I am advised that it will not float.

S.S. Tutshi in the amount of $35,000 agreed to

On O.T.A.B. Landscaping

Mr. Nordling: Have we done all the landscaping or did we just get it more cheaply than we expected?

Hon. Mr. Webster: No, we have not done all the landscaping. We have just done a little cosmetic work at the front of the building so that the tourists who do not venture around the sides of the OTAB get to see that it is a very pretty building from the front. This work involves the landscaping of the grounds to the north of the OTAB, which was at one time, as the Member who is a former resident of the Klondike knows, was at one time a garden. The complete design and landscaping of this area is just in the final stages of being drawn up, which will enable us to do work in the area this coming summer.

O.T.A.B. Landscaping in the amount of a recovery of $12,000 agreed to

On Cultural Heritage Studies

Cultural Heritage Studies in the amount of a recovery of $10,000 agreed to

On Enerdemo

Hon. Mr. Webster: As I mentioned in my opening remarks, this agreement was not in place at the time the 1988-89 budget was prepared, and therefore, of course, it was not included in the Main Estimates. This is the project that is being funded by the federal government and is 100 percent recoverable. It deals with the cold storage of artifacts in the museum.

Mr. Phillips: What happened to the plan to build a facility in Whitehorse? There was talk one time when I went to a meeting in the library about building a large facility in Whitehorse that they could sort and store all these artifacts in. Is this just a demonstration project to see how successful that might be before they build something a little larger?

Hon. Mr. Webster: That is correct. This is a demonstration project to determine how well this system will work in our present climate and environment.

Mr. Phillips: Will this $34,000 complete the demonstration project?

Hon. Mr. Webster: Yes it will.

Enerdemo in the amount of $34,000 agreed to

On Low Frequency Radio Transmitters

Mr. Phillips: That is for the new radio station, I take it. Have there been any surveys done to find out how many visitors actually listen to that station?

Hon. Mr. Webster: There has been no formal study done on the level of interest by the travelling public tuning into these stations, but apparently the hosts at our Visitor Reception Centre receive a lot of favourable comments from the visitors as they pass through each community.

Low Frequency Radio Transmitters in the amount of a recovery of $5,000 agreed to

On Visitor Reception Centre Development

Mr. Phillips: What is the status of the Visitor Reception Centre? Has there been any decision made where the new reception centre might be located?

Hon. Mr. Webster: Yes, there has been some work done on this matter. The consultants have completed a study. They have identified two sites. Soon there will be a proposal to go to Management Board for review.

Mr. Phillips: Where are the two sites?

Hon. Mr. Webster: One is the 20/20 site on the waterfront and the other is the Jim Light Arena.

Mr. Phillips: So the government is rejecting the idea of a visitor reception centre somewhere near the top of the Two Mile Hill, as was suggested by some of the businesses?

Hon. Mr. Webster:  No, those are the two downtown sites identified by the consultants. There was a third site.

Mr. Phillips: Is the Minister telling us that the Management Board will look at all three sites as opposed to just two?

Hon. Mr. Webster: That is correct?

Visitor Reception Centre Development in the amount of a recovery of $39,000 agreed to

On Production of Films, T.V. Vignettes

Mr. Phillips: Could I make a suggestion to the Minister? In some areas that I have travelled if you turn on the local television station, and some of the local radio stations, the vignettes produced are not only directed at tourists but at the residents of the area. They talk very briefly about the value of tourism to the area, and they talk about being polite. “The tourists are sort of your bread and butter; the way you treat them has a great bearing on your job.” In the area I was in, I found it very effective. The people talked about them and realized the value of tourism to their area. These are little reminders that some aspects of the Yukon economy relate to tourism, which some people do not realize. These short little ads would remind people that their job is directly related, in one way or another, to tourism. It might be useful if we did look at producing some short vignettes along that vein.

Production of Films, TV Vignettes in the amount of $7,000 agreed to

Tourism in the amount of a recovery of $70,000 agreed to

Women’s Directorate

Hon. Ms. Joe: There is a $40,000 item. The Women’s Directorate received $40,000 in addition to the $242,000 in the 1988-89 Budget. The amount of $15,000 came from the Economic Development Agreement for the financing of the women’s entrepreneur study, and $25,000 was paid to the Directorate for the secondment of staff for the child care consultation process. That allowed for the publishing of the employment law book that was tabled in the House last week, and to provide funding for the conference for women in business.

Mr. Nordling: I am not sure that I understand what the Minister is saying. The Women’s Directorate received that extra money from EDA, and we are asking for a supplementary? Is it recoverable? Who is it charged to? I did not understand what the Minister was trying to tell us.

Hon. Ms. Joe: There was $40,000 here over and above the $242,000. There was $15,000 transferred to the Women’s Directorate from the Economic Development Agreement. That was to do the women’s entrepreneur study. Then there was an additional $25,000 that was paid to the Directorate for the secondment of a staff member for the child consultation process.

Mr. Nordling: I am still not clear. I understand that if there is a secondment to the Women’s Directorate that they pay $25,000 more out of their budget. With respect to the $15,000 for the EDA, is that a contribution that the Women’s Directorate made toward the women’s entrepreneur program? It is not clear to me why the Women’s Directorate is spending $15,000 on an EDA grant.

Hon. Ms. Joe: The Women’s Directorate did the women’s entrepreneur study. They received $15,000 from the EDA to do it. The $25,000 was paid to the Directorate by Health and Human Resources for the secondment of a staff member to join the child consultation panel.

Mr. Nordling: I apologize. It is not clear to me why the Women’s Directorate is coming to us now asking for $40,000 in additional funds if they got $15,000 from the EDA and $25,000 from Health and Human Resources. It should be a lapse of $40,000 rather than a supplementary request.

Hon. Ms. Joe: We are giving the explanation that the $40,000 that we received over and above the $242,000 was added to our budget, and that was the explanation. There was a transfer of funds from other departments to our department.

Mr. Nordling: Why are those amounts