Whitehorse, Yukon
Monday, April 10, 1989 - 1:30 p.m.
Speaker: I will now call the House to order.
We will proceed at this time with prayers.
Prayers
DAILY ROUTINE
Speaker: We will now turn to the Order Paper.
Are there any Introduction of Visitors?
INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS
Hon. Ms. Joe: I would like to welcome to the House today Jan Staples and her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Staples, who are visiting from out of the territory.
Applause
Speaker: Are there any Returns or Documents for Tabling?
TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have for tabling a number of Legislative Returns relating to questions outstanding from Estimates and previous Question Periods.
Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?
Petitions?
Introduction of Bills?
INTRODUCTION OF BILLS
Mr. Lang: I move that a bill entitled An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act be now introduced and read a first time.
Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Member for Whitehorse Porter Creek East that a bill entitled An Act to Amend the Student Financial Assistance Act be now introduced and read a first time.
Motion agreed to
Speaker: Are there any Notices of Motion for Production of Papers?
Are there any Statements by Ministers?
This then brings us to the Question Period.
QUESTION PERIOD
Question re: Ketza River Gold Mine
Mr. Phelps: I have some questions for the Minister for Economic Development: Mines and Small Business regarding the recent rash of negative news reports about the future of the mining industry in Yukon. Belmoral Mines announced last Thursday that it will not be buying the Ketza River Gold Mine because of the low actual production figures for that mine. We understand that Canamax issued a two-paragraph news release saying that Canamax is reviewing the situation with regard to the mine pending its response.
Can the Minister advise this House whether Canamax has issued any further public statements regarding the future of the mine?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I was made aware of the fact that the sale had at least temporarily fallen through late last week when the public announcement was made. Consequently, requests were made of both Belmoral and Canamax to see whether or not further information could be provided, to explain, in greater detail, the situation with respect to that financial agreement. To date, to my knowledge, no further information has been supplied.
Mr. Phelps: Is the Minister intending to meet with officials from Canamax in the near future?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes, I had indicated a desire to visit Canamax to see the operation, and also to speak with officials in any case, and certainly this situation has accelerated those plans.
Mr. Phelps: Does the government have any plans at all to take steps to encourage Canamax to keep the mine operating?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: That was a primary concern we had, and we have been given verbal assurances that there are no plans to change the operation of the mine at this point. They have indicated to our officials that they intend to keep operating as before.
Question re: Omni Mount Skukum
Mr. Phelps: With respect to the developing mine in the Wheaton River area known as Omni Mount Skukum, recent news reports indicate the deal to lease the mill owned by Total Erickson has fallen through. Can the Minister confirm this story?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I have heard the suggestion. I have not been able to confirm that the deal has fallen through. I have asked officials to keep abreast of the situation.
Mr. Phelps: Has the Minister been in touch with officials from Omni or Mount Skukum to determine exactly what they intend to do in the future with regard to opening up that mine?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I have not personally been in touch. Again, I have indicated a desire to officials that I would like to meet with officials of the various properties to discuss the situation. I understand they have had some discussions with government officials about some related matters, including water use applications. We are taking a very direct interest in what is happening with those properties.
Mr. Phelps: Is the government taking any steps to encourage Omni and Mount Skukum to put the mine into production? Are there any plans of assistance or anything else from this government in the works?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: As I have indicated, I have not yet had the opportunity to personally meet with the officials. I know they have had regular meetings with the previous Minister of Economic Development. Any assistance that we can provide to encourage a production decision would be considered.
Question re: United Keno Hill Mines in Elsa
Mr. Phillips: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development as well. As we know, the Elsa mine has been shut down since January; most of the workers and their families have now left. I wonder if the Minister could update the House and let us know if there have been any discussions taking place and if there may be a change in the status of that mine and it may reopen in the near future?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I have spoken, on a couple of occasions, with the president of United Keno Hill Mines about the possible re-opening efforts of the United Keno Hill Mine in Elsa. They have indicated at this point that they are in the process of doing a final wrap-up review of their year end. At the same time, they are finalizing the temporary closure procedures. Simultaneously, they are issuing a share offering to try to secure enough funds to cover their debt and to give them a buffer as well.
They have indicated a desire to continue speaking with the government on, not only their aspirations, but whatever issues there may be of common importance throughout the government and to the mining company. At the same time, I have indicated a willingness and a desire on behalf of the government to see what is available that could encourage an earlier re-opening decision.
Mr. Phillips: I wonder if the Minister could tell the House if he has made any specific recommendations to United Keno Hill Mines on some specific things that the Government of Yukon could do that would facilitate the re-opening of that mine?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: A number of things have been broached with the mining company with respect to re-opening decisions. There are a number of elements that would be considered in any re-opening and certainly, the government is prepared to discuss any or all of the elements. The degree of support would depend very much on what results could be had from that support.
A number of areas have been discussed under our current programs, everything from mining rehabilitation to doing energy audits on the housing in that community. There are probably a dozen or more elements that would contribute to the re-opening decision, not the least of which is the silver price. We both agreed that neither the company nor the government can do much about that.
Mr. Phillips: One of the alternatives announced by this government when the mine was closed was the possibility of turning the mine into a mine training school. Is the government still pursuing this idea?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: We are pursuing the idea very actively. One of the agreements that we do have is that the feasibility of a mine training school for the training of underground miners be studied right away. The company has nominated a contact person. We have contact people and the approach is being made directly.
Question re: Salmon fishery
Mr. Lang: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Renewable Resources. At the outset, I would like to say that we are pleased to see that positive steps are being taken with respect to the negotiations over the Yukon/Alaska salmon fishery. I understand that an agreement has been reached between the parties involved about borders and other things coming into effect over the course of the coming years. Is the Minister in a position to table that particular agreement?
Hon. Mr. Webster: No, I am not in a position to table that document as I have not received it myself, but the arrangement that has been reached between the two parties is that, over the next few years, a program will be initiated that will rebuild stocks over a long period of time, probably a 10 to 12 year period of time, which is, of course, a two-year cycle for salmon.
When I have that report available and I have had a chance to review it, I will make it available to the Member opposite.
Mr. Lang: In view of the discussions that took place in Anchorage, could the Minister inform this House of the outcome of the negotiations for this year as far as the fishermen are concerned? Are they going to being facing tighter quotas in view of the statements that have come from that particular discussion?
Hon. Mr. Webster: Yes, the decision that was made this past week at the negotiations was to establish a meeting in Dawson City where both parties could have input into establishing the amount of take by each country, the Alaskans and the Yukoners. That meeting is scheduled to take place in the last week in May.
With respect to the amount, it is anticipated that in an effort to rebuild stocks there definitely will be a smaller number of fish taken by both parties.
Mr. Lang: I wonder if the Minister could also report to this House what progress, if any, has been made in regard to the question of enhancement? What I mean by that is the prospect of having, perhaps, a hatchery built to assist in rebuilding the sadly depleting stocks.
Hon. Mr. Webster: The whole matter of enhancement, being so closely related to stock rebuilding, was discussed at length. There are a number of things that we are able to do to improve the stocks through enhancement, such as habitat rehabilitation, and the one that the Member has correctly identified, of doing more work here in our fishery in Whitehorse and expanding our operations so as to develop more fry.
Question re: Salmon fishery
Mr. Lang: This brings us down to the basic question of who is going to pay. It is no secret that the Alaskans do take the lion’s share of the salmon that is raised in the Yukon. With regard to the enhancement and use of the hatchery, or building another hatchery, who is going to pay? Has there been agreement in that area?
Hon. Mr. Webster: There has not been any agreement as to what the responsibilities of the two parties are with respect to paying for enhancement programs. However, our Yukon contingent strongly feels that the Department of Fisheries of the federal government, which is still responsible for the salmon resource, should be called upon to put more money into a local hatchery to expand it, as we feel that their actions in signing the Pacific Salmon Treaty back in 1985, without dealing with the Yukon River situation, is largely responsible for the situation we find ourselves in at this time. There has not been anything agreed upon between Alaska and the Yukon in this matter, but Yukoners are establishing a position with respect to the federal government.
Mr. Lang: We are all federal taxpayers. My concern goes back to the principle that the Alaskans get the lion’s share of the fish. Is it not the position of the negotiating team that the Americans should pay a good portion of whatever costs are involved in running a hatchery, and perhaps building another?
Hon. Mr. Webster: The understanding is that it was deemed to be desirable by both parties to rebuild the stocks, and that both will have to take active responsibility in enhancement programs. The one enhancement program I have just referred to, which will be conducted here in the Yukon, was by no means the only one. I am quite certain that there will be others done on the Alaskan side of the border, where it is estimated that 50 percent of the fish stock are produced, as well.
Question re: Fire truck, Watson Lake
Mr. Devries: On April 5, 1989, when asked about the Watson Lake fire truck, the Minister of Community and Transportation Services indicated that $115,000 was agreed to, yet, in a letter to the town mayor dated March 6, the Minister indicated $130,000 was available. The Town of Watson Lake anticipates $130,000. What is the Minister’s position on this matter?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I thank the Member for giving me notice on the question. The communication of the previous Minister is the most recent and accurate information. At the time of the budget preparation, the amount of $115,000 was the usual allocation for that type of equipment capability. The $130,000 is the amount committed, in fact.
Question re: Dawson City new school, hazardous fumes
Mr. Devries: In light of the problem with the propane in the Dawson City school last week, can the Minister of Education tell me if his department has an emergency response procedure for all schools in the territory? It appears that the quick thinking of the staff of the school prevented any serious problems. However, the fire department was not called by the school. If no response procedure exists, would the Minister have his department implement such a procedure?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Years ago, it was anticipated that emergencies would happen in schools. It is the policy of the public schools branch that there be instructions for drills in every school, for just such situations as the one that occurred in Dawson. It is the responsibility of the Regional Superintendent to ensure that there is a drill in every school. It is the responsibility of the principal to ensure that those drills are undertaken.
Mr. Devries: Does the Department of Education have a policy regarding exposed propane hook-ups at schools where children have access to them? Have other schools been checked for similar exposed installations?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: There are, literally, dozens of things that could result in emergency requirements for drills. Each school is to be schooled on emergency procedures, whether it be propane tank hook-ups or anything else. That is the case in the Dawson school. Some time ago, I asked that an analysis of what happened in the Robert Service School be completed.
Question re: Icicles, Watson Lake school
Mr. Devries: During the election campaign, the janitorial staff at the school in Watson Lake called me complaining that icicles were hanging from the eaves of the school. The concern was that an icicle would fall and injure a student. In some schools, the procedure is to have the janitorial staff remove these. According to the janitors there, they do not have the equipment to remove them. Does the department have a policy in place to prevent potential accidents such as this?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The policy is to discourage the potential for accidents from icicles building up on the roofs of schools. Primarily, it is up to the principal, who is the immediate supervisor, to identify areas of concern and ensure that appropriate action is taken. If the school custodians do not have the capacity within the school to remove the icicles, it is then the responsibility of the principal and superintendent to ensure that appropriate persons in the Department of Government Services be made available to ensure that any safety hazard is removed.
Question re: Territorial Court judges
Mrs. Firth: I have a question for the Minister of Justice regarding the Territorial Court judges. It has been almost three weeks since the Minister met with the Judicial Council to discuss various outstanding issues, in particular, the hiring of judges. Can the Minister tell us if the position is going to be advertised and why it has not been advertised so far?
Hon. Ms. Joe: The position will be advertised. There are a couple of things that we are still discussing. I am hoping that we will reach an agreement by Thursday.
Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us what the issues are that are being discussed that are holding up the advertising of this position?
Hon. Ms. Joe: I would prefer not to talk about those discussions in the House today. The discussions I have had with the Judicial Council and with the judges have been favourable and we appear to be coming to some kind of agreement. It is my hope that I will be able to make an announcement on Thursday.
Mrs. Firth: Are we to take it then that the Minister will be readvertising the position on Thursday, or is she just going to be making an announcement about decisions that are going to be made?
When is the position going to be advertised again? I do not get a clear statement that that will happen on Thursday.
Hon. Ms. Joe: I am having ongoing discussions, and as late as Saturday morning, I was having discussions on one item on which we have to come to some decision. It will just be a matter of days after that that the position will be advertised.
Question re: Territorial Court judges
Mrs. Firth: My new question is to the same Minister regarding the same matter: the Territorial Court judges.
Can the Minister tell us whether or not she has had an opportunity to discuss with the individual who is currently the chief land claims negotiator, the status of his position and whether or not that position is going to be freed up so that we can hire a judge?
Hon. Ms. Joe: No, I have not.
Mrs. Firth: Has she discussed it with the Judicial Council and can she tell us now when that secondment is going to end?
Hon. Ms. Joe: I do not have that information today.
Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us when she is going to make a decision regarding this matter?
Hon. Ms. Joe: I will be meeting with the land claims negotiator regarding that matter. We do not have a date set up. I was planning to contact him the other day, and, as soon as I do, we will be discussing the matter.
Question re: Mammography unit
Mr. Nordling: I have a question for the Minister of Health and Human Resources.
There has been considerable discussion about access to a mammography unit for Yukoners: whether it would be through a sharing of a mobile unit with northern British Columbia, or the purchase of our own machine. I would like to know if the Minister can update us as to his progress in obtaining access to a mammography unit for Yukon women.
Hon. Mr. Penikett: As I am sure the Member knows, the Department of Health and Human Resources has supported the introduction of mammography screening in the territory, and I am sure it will be a matter of interest to the Member that the deputy ministers of Health from across the country have recently endorsed annual mammographs at their December meeting.
The hospital in Whitehorse has recently evolved its position and is now prepared to house and lend support to the program as a working group, including the Yukon Medical Association, which supports the implementation of the program at the hospital. There is a significant capital cost - I understand something in the neighbourhood of $100,000 - to implementing such a program, and the cost-sharing arrangements for this development are being negotiated between the federal and territorial governments, but no conclusion has yet been reached.
Mr. Nordling: When can Yukon women have a mammogram here in the territory? Is there a date to which we can commit ourselves?
Hon. Mr. Penikett: It is impossible, when there are negotiations going on, to predict a definite date at which point they will be concluded, but I hope that not too much time will pass before this program will be implemented here.
Question re: Expectant mothers, assistance for
Mr. Nordling: That was not a clear answer. I would like to go on to another subject. There has also been discussion by this government over provision of a home or assistance for expectant mothers who have to come in from the communities to Whitehorse to have their babies. Will the Minister update us as to the progress in this regard?
Hon. Mr. Penikett: I am sure the Member may have noticed there is one dollar provided for in the Capital Estimates now before the House to permit us to continue discussions we have now begun with various bodies, including the Department of Government Services, as to the availability of suitable accommodation, the cost of renovating the same, and a potential operator of such a facility.
At this point, we are seriously looking at having some social service agency in the community operating the facility. We have tentatively identified a building currently being used for some other purpose as a potential site, and we are assessing the costs of having that building meet the zoning and building code standards that it would be required to meet in order to be considered.
Mr. Nordling: That sounds very nice, but are there any set timelines or goals in which to achieve this?
Hon. Mr. Penikett: Should we identify an acceptable site and properly identify the costs of renovating or improving that facility, my plan is to come before the House sometime this year with a request for a supplementary to do whatever renovations or improvements may be necessary to open and operate that facility and to have it in place in this fiscal year.
Mr. Nordling: I have also heard that the Minister of Health and Human Resources is planning to cut off Yukon Medicare for seniors who leave the territory for the winter months. What instructions or policy directions has the Minister given to his department in this regard?
Hon. Mr. Penikett: None.
Question re: NorthwestTel communication towers
Mr. Brewster: Could the Minister of Renewable Resources tell us if NorthwesTel received a land-use permit for the communication towers on the Dempster Highway?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I will take notice of the question. I am not totally familiar with that detail. I know there are ongoing discussions about the phase 3 of the program, which would see expansion of that particular network up the highway. I would have to take notice as to precisely how it relates to the land-use permits.
Mr. Brewster: What is the position of this government in regard to this project?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The position of the government has been outlined in previous discussions in the House. The project is a cost-shared one, and this government has taken a funding support position to the project. The short answer is that this government is supporting the project in its plans to upgrade the telecommunication service to territorial residents.
Question re: Zoning regulations, Carcross cut-off
Mr. Phelps: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services by way of follow-up. Residents at the Carcross cut-off and Golden Horn Subdivision have attended numerous meetings in 1987 and early 1988 to work out mutually acceptable zoning regulations for the area. A consensus was finally reached after all kinds of meetings. I am wondering when the regulations are going to be made into law.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I cannot say definitively when. I am currently reviewing those regulations. They will require some additional approval before being passed into law, as the Member knows, but I would expect that a reasonable answer is within the next month or two.
Mr. Phelps: Can the Minister tell us why it has taken so long? The regulations were agreed to over a year ago.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I can only advise the Member that I have just recently became aware of them and, as I indicated, I am currently reviewing them and will pass them on for the appropriate approval steps that are necessary very shortly.
Question re: Traffic flow
Mr. Phillips: My question is for the Minister of Transportation Services and it is regarding the Riverdale traffic on Lewes Boulevard and Hospital Road.
The traffic study released by the Minister, looking at this area, clearly states that without further expansion or use of the Old Yukon College, this intersection is a problem. In fact, it states that traffic-signal control is currently warranted for the existing volumes of traffic. Is the Government of Yukon working with the City of Whitehorse to address this problem prior to moving any more government employees into the Old Yukon College?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am pleased to tell the Member that there are ongoing discussions regarding the Riverdale bridge and the traffic-flow pattern. The Member is quite correct about the traffic patterns currently in place there, but he should also know that the proposed use of the Old Yukon College in and of itself will not increase the traffic patterns as they currently exist. In short, the proposed use of the Old Yukon College for the Department of Renewable Resources and the Child Development Centre will not change traffic patterns or increase them.
Mr. Phillips: I beg to differ with the Minister. I believe that it will change traffic patterns; in fact, I know it will. The simple fact of the matter is that the government employees that will be working at the Old Yukon College will be arriving at work at the peak rush-hour periods when the people from Riverdale will be trying to get out of Riverdale. That was not the case with the Old Yukon College before...
Speaker: Order, please. Will the Member please get to the supplementary question?
Mr. Phillips: ... so I would ask the Minister if he will assure this House that no more government employees will be moved into the Old Yukon College until that traffic-flow problem at that intersection is addressed.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member has cited the traffic study that was used to determine just what impact that facility will have when its use has changed. While we may debate what impact the employees may have by going to work at 8:30 a.m. as opposed to students going at the same time, it is a matter of conjecture. I am reassuring the Member that the traffic-flow pattern of that bridge and area is being closely scrutinized by both Government Services and Community and Transportation Services, as well as city officials.
Mr. Phillips: The Minister and I are at least on agreement on one point. There is a problem. Now, there is a problem currently with traffic. His report says that. He said that in the House today. What I am asking the Minister is: Will he assure the House that no more employees will be placed in the Old Yukon College until that traffic flow problem at that intersection is addressed?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member has to realize that the problems that do exist at that location now are ones that I take seriously, and certainly this government takes seriously, with respect to any proposed use for the Old Yukon College. But the fact of the matter is that the responsibility rests with the city for addressing it, and we are currently in those discussions encouraging that action and rectification to take place.
Question re: Yukon Economic Council
Mr. Nordling: I have a question for the Minister of Economic Development. The government’s Throne Speech delivered on March 8 indicated that the Yukon Economic Council would be expanded into a Yukon council on the economy and the environment during this year’s Legislative sittings. I would like to ask the Minister when this will be done and who will sit on the new expanded council?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The government has not finalized the details with respect to the make-up of the new expanded council. Certainly, discussions have been held with the acting chair of the council with respect to what the existing council’s aspirations are. The Ministers involved - the Government Leader, the Minister for Renewable Resources and I - will be making an announcement shortly. We have indicated a desire to see the council expand and see it resume operations in earnest.
Mr. Nordling: In the past, we on this side have asked that a representative from the agricultural industry be put on the Yukon Economic Council. I would like to know if there will be an agricultural representative on this new expanded council?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The suggestion will certainly be considered. It would be premature for me to indicate, prior to discussions with my colleagues, who might be placed on the council, given its expanded mandate. But certainly, when the mandate is determined, an announcement will be made.
Mr. Nordling: I am not having much more success with specifics from this Minister than with the Minister of Health. The government has a reputation for not following through on its Throne Speech commitments, and I would like the Minister to be more specific and tell us when the new council will meet and who will appoint the new council.
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I sincerely do apologize that we have not acted more quickly to meet the Member’s expectations. The government has been in operation as a new government with this promise for a little over a month. There are a number of things pending, and this is very high on the priority list. As I indicated, discussions have been held with the existing Yukon Economic Council to at least show them the courtesy of consulting with them as to what they think the makeup ought to be. When the decision is made, which should be shortly, about the makeup of the council, then certainly the Member will be one of the first to know. We do consider this to be a high priority. This is something that was promised in the Throne Speech about a month ago and it certainly will be undertaken.
Question re: Justice of the Peace program
Mrs. Firth: I have a question for the Minister of Justice regarding the Justice of the Peace program.
I asked the Minister if she would maintain the same rigid policy about racial and gender balance when it came to appointing JPs as did her predecessor, or could we look forward to a more reasonable and practical approach under her ministry?
The Minister did not answer the question. I would like to ask her quite specifically now if she is going to relax that policy when it comes to appointing JPs, so that some of these communities are not left with either no or just one JP in the community?
Hon. Ms. Joe: I have met with the Judicial Council in regard to that. It was on the list of items about which I spoke. We recognize that there have not been any JPs appointed for a long long time. I have also met briefly with the JPs when they were in town. It is my hope that there will be JPs in the communities other than Whitehorse, who will know the areas and people well. Those JPs may happen to be male, female, Indian or whatever, but I think that the most important thing here is that those people do understand the situations, the communities and the cultures. There will be a relaxation of those rules, but...
Some hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Hon. Ms. Joe: ...it is still my intention to make sure that there are more women, and it is my intention to make sure that there are Indian people, but the important thing, really, is that those people do understand the people and the communities.
Mrs. Firth: We do not disagree that there should be Indian people and women, but not at the expense of not having a JP at all. I think that that was the issue that we were raising. We are pleased to hear that that is going to be changed and that the objective is going to be that the communities have JPs who can identify with those communities.
I would like to ask the Minister when the new training sessions are going to start. She mentioned that that was going to happen. Could she tell us when?
Hon. Ms. Joe: There is a training proposal in place right now. There have been discussions between myself and the chief judge in regard to that training. There is no date set for that training to start yet, but certainly we are pursuing that, and we hope to come to some kind of a decision in regard to when that will be.
Mrs. Firth: I was of the impression that that could happen anytime. The Minister had said in the House that the plans are already being instituted, when I asked questions about the JP training and the appointments.
Could she tell us then when we are going to have some new appointments announced, so that the JPs can benefit from the training sessions?
Hon. Ms. Joe: As the Member knows, the recommendations come to Cabinet from the Judicial Council. I am not entirely sure when it will be making recommendations. There are discussions underway right now regarding the kind of training that is required for JPs once they are appointed. In the past, JPs have been appointed without training, and I think we would like to make sure that there is some kind of training before the appointments are made. There has not been any training in the last little while. I know there is an urgency for a JP in Old Crow. I think there have been discussions with the community about that. I am hoping that we can expect a request from Judicial Council in regard to that community.
Speaker: The time for Question Period has now lapsed. We will now proceed with Orders of the Day.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Motion agreed to
Speaker leaves the Chair
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
Chair: Committee of the Whole will now come to order.
After a brief recess, the Committee will be dealing with Bill No. 28, entitled Day of Mourning for Victims of Workplace Injuries Act.
Recess
Chair: Committee of the Whole will now come to order.
Bill No. 28 - Day of Mourning for Victims of Workplace Injuries Act
Chair: Is there any general debate?
Mrs. Firth: I move that Bill No. 28 entitled Day of Mourning for Victims of Workplace Injuries Act be deemed to be read.
Chair: Is there unanimous consent?
All Hon. Members: Agreed.
Chair: There is unanimous consent.
On Title
Title agreed to
Hon. Ms. Joe: I move that you report Bill No. 28 without amendment.
Motion agreed to
Bill No. 51 - First Appropriation Act, 1989-90 - continued
Chair: We will now proceed with general debate on the Department of Education.
Department of Education
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The budget before you represents a total of $15,940,000 in construction, renovation and capital equipment allocations to be divided between the various component programs and service branches of the Department of Education.
I will outline the major budget items for each branch, starting with the public schools branch. The construction of a new elementary school in the Whitehorse area is planned to proceed this year with $800,000 allocated for the design and initial construction activity. A local committee has been formed to advise on the design of the school. The school would tentatively serve the growing student population of the Granger/Hillcrest area, as well as subdivisions and communities elsewhere.
The Robert Service School construction and upgrading project is proceeding as planned and is expected to be ready for use in April of this school year. An amount of $761,000 has been allocated for the 1989-90 year to cover the cost of demolition of parts of the old school, further renovations to the remaining sections of the old facility and for school furniture and equipment. This project, which involved extensive community employment, will combine school and community-use functions wherever feasible.
To meet the demands of a growing student population in Porter Creek Subdivision in Whitehorse, $644,000 is included in the budget for the expansion of the Porter Creek Junior High School.
This expansion will provide much needed additional classroom and library space.
An amount of $550,000 is included in this budget for the design and initial construction of a new and larger St. Elias residence in Whitehorse. The current residence is too small to serve the growing number of students needing accommodation and there is no room to expand the existing facility; therefore, a whole new residence is to be built. The residence serves high school students from the communities who come to Whitehorse to attend FH Collins High School.
Jack Hulland School will receive an allocation of $350,000 to provide increased sources of natural lighting and to expand the administrative area in the school. A further total of $1,006,000 will be spent on a variety of renovations and upgrading projects of the following schools: FH Collins, Whitehorse Elementary, Selkirk, Chief Zzeh Gittlit, Christ the King High, Kluane Lake. This amount also includes $180,000 for a number of smaller miscellaneous school facility operations.
Four school computer labs will be constructed over the year for a total cost of $120,000, the locations of which are to be decided in the near future.
A number of schools will have grounds improvement work done at a total cost of $300,000. This includes such projects as refurbishing the grounds of Robert Service School, building a new soccer field at Johnson Elementary School and the Carcross School and providing the tennis courts replacement at Jeckell School.
The gymnasium floors in Selkirk and FH Collins Schools will be finished at a cost of $100,000. This is part of the ongoing maintenance necessary in our schools to keep the facilities in good condition.
In a continuing effort to make our schools accessible to physically handicapped people, $100,000 has been earmarked for Whitehorse Elementary School to alter the entrance and interior of the school to provide appropriate access.
This gives a total amount of $6,731,000 to go toward the construction, repair and maintenance of school facilities for 1989-90.
Instructional equipment for schools is another significant capital expenditure, coming to a total of $980,000. Of this amount $300,000 is for an instructional computer, $100,000 for business education computers to prepare students for a working environment, $100,000 for industrial education and home economics, $40,000 for physical education, $30,000 for musical instruments, $40,000 for drapes, $20,000 for the learning resources centre, $20,000 for special education, and $15,000 for kindergarten equipment. The amount of $275,000 falls under the general category of audio-visual, library, office and miscellaneous school equipment, which includes such items as audio-visual equipment, typewriters, desks, chairs and photocopiers. Priorities for these latter expenditures are determined by individual schools in consultation with the school committees.
The French language programs have $32,000 for classroom equipment and materials, $6,000 for an instructional computer and $2,000 for audio-visual equipment for a total of $40,000.
This completes the capital budget for public schools for a total of $7,711,000.
On Yukon College, the major capital expenditure here is for the completion of the new Yukon College construction. A project at a cost of $2,132,000 will finish the construction of the new gymnasium, the final component of the new college facility. A new community campus building will be constructed at Old Crow. The amount of $50,000 has been allocated to complete the construction of a northern research laboratory within the new Yukon College facility. This lab will support the Northern Studies Program and other northern research and science endeavours.
An amount of $225,000 has been identified for campus equipment for the central Yukon College. This includes $140,000 for new gymnasium equipment and $85,000 for new and replacement equipment for existing and new programs.
The community campuses of Yukon College have been allocated $130,000 for furniture and equipment to support existing and new programs.
That brings the total capital budget for Yukon College to $3,237,000 for 1989-1990.
Under the advanced education branch, the recently opened Career Services Office will receive $10,000 for furnishings and equipment for its new facility. This office provides a well-used service to the public and is effectively responding to an important community need for career development information and career counselling.
The libraries and archives branch has a number of significant items in the capital budget, for a total $2,952,000. The government will be constructing a new archives facility at the same site as Yukon College. Design work for this facility is nearing completion and $2,700,000 has been allocated for the 1989-1990 year toward construction. A further $25,000 has been earmarked for archival storage equipment and $16,000 for conservation assessment facilities, for a total of $2,741,000.
The archives has also been allocated $15,000 of capital funds for public display of preparation and maintenance. The library research facilities will receive a total of $141,000 in capital funds. This includes $50,000 for library facility planning for the Whitehorse Public Library and $91,000 for community library development in Ross River, Teslin and Dawson.
A further amount of $55,000 is allocated for library equipment, including audio-visual equipment. This amount will support the community and central public libraries in the continued provision of good service to their clients.
Finally, the finance and administration branch has been allocated $2,000,000 for the initial construction work on a new Yukon arts centre. The new centre, which is to be built in collaboration with Arts Canada North, will also be located by the new college facility in Whitehorse and will provide an outstanding locale for a wide variety of cultural and artistic productions and displays. Our public schools and Yukon College programs will benefit from this facility.
Finance and Administration will also receive $30,000 for custodial equipment for Yukon schools, bring the total capital budget for this branch to $2,030,000.
That is the general explanation of expenditures for this department. I am sure we will eagerly get into general discussion.
Mr. Devries: I was not here for the beginning. I have some concerns that I will address as we go through line by line. I would rather not comment on the whole thing right now. There are some concerns in the area of the arts centre and also in the new program being introduced regarding career counselling. I have some concerns as far as the rural communities go. I will get to them as we go through line by line rather than going through duplications.
Mrs. Firth: I have some general questions for the Minister as to how they made some of the decisions regarding the expenditure of funds and how the priorities were set. Other than the fact that school committees were consulted when it came to specific schools wanting equipment, how did the government determine the priorities as to whether they were going to proceed with new schools and which ones were going to require upgrading and renovations and whose turn it was? Can he give us some indication as to how these decisions were made?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am not sure if the Member is talking about school equipment or extended facilities or both. I will respond initially with respect to school facilities themselves.
As has been discussed in this Legislature on a number of occasions, there have been a number of studies done in the Whitehorse in particular and around the territory that have been responding to what was anticipated to be a student enrollment increase. In Whitehorse in particular, analysis was done, not only of the reports, but also of student enrollments, given the programming that is available in the various schools. We are looking at student enrollments for particular schools, where we would anticipate the student populations to show strain in coming years. Clearly, we expect some strain in the junior high area, and we are experiencing strain in some schools in Whitehorse. For that reason, it was those schools in particular that were targeted for the expansions, given that we know the expansions will take place in a year or so. That is the general reasoning behind why some schools were chosen for expanded classroom space while others are not.
I believe we have gone through the rationale a number of times already in the Legislature and even in this sitting, with respect to a new school in Whitehorse. At the elementary end of the spectrum, there is clearly a need for more classroom space. The government is responding to that. We anticipate in the coming years that there will be further strain on the junior high school classroom space. It may, though it is probably too early to tell, result in some need for more space at the high school level. Certainly, though, the highest priorities at the present time are elementary school space in Whitehorse and some additional classroom space at the junior high level.
Mrs. Firth: I was asking specifically about the answer that the Minister gave. I was not so much concerned about equipment. I was more concerned about the larger decisions and what the government’s priorities were.
Those reports that the Minister keeps referring to were done in 1986. Some time has passed since then; I would like to ask the Minister if they are following the stated objectives, directions and recommendations that were given in those reports. Are they planning to deviate from them at all as they did with the issue that has recently been debated in the Legislature? Are they going to follow the recommendations that were made in the reports prepared by the committee that was made up of representatives from the city, department officials and educational representatives?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Again, I am not exactly sure what the Member is referring to with respect to the comment about government deviating from previously designed plans.
The last report that I am referring to is the report on the Yukon school facilities requirements that was done jointly between the Education Council and the public schools branch. As I indicated a few days ago, the report is in the media and was made public with respect to the needs for school facilities in Whitehorse. This capital plan is largely based on that report.
Mrs. Firth: When the government makes decisions regarding ground improvements, - or which school gets a new gym floor, which school gets a new soccer field, which gets computers and so on - is there still a schedule or a rotation that is maintained so that each school receives its turn to get something new, or are those kinds of decisions being made separately now? Is there still some kind of maintenance schedule in place for when certain things happen at certain schools?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: As a general proposition, to my understanding, the answer is yes. From time to time, clearly, there may be something happening of a more urgent nature that requires the department to respond more quickly in some areas than others. Generally speaking, however, we try to ensure that necessary work on all schools is undertaken and no school is left without the services required.
There is a general understanding - at least in the schools that I have attended, which is every one - that everybody’s turn will come in the fullness of time, so to speak. Certainly there are schedules for certain things to happen with respect to, for example, the installation of computers. The computer labs is one area that may depend upon the maturity of the computer program in that school. With respect to ground improvements, sometimes the plan can be altered if there is a major reconstruction undertaken requiring grounds improvements. For example, there was a major renovation done at the Carcross school. Irrespective of where Carcross stood with respect to grounds improvements per se, because of the construction activity, the work still had to be done to provide for the landscaping.
Jeckell School is another example. As I remember it, the Jeckell School expansion necessitated the removal of some tennis court space. In the arrangement, there was a promise made to ensure that tennis court space was reintroduced elsewhere. That is something else that is sometimes done from time to time, to meet a specific need and does not perfectly fit the mold of the rotation basis. In the main, though, my understanding is that the needs are met on a rotational basis. The maintenance schedule requires that attention is given regularly to every school.
Chair: Is there any further general debate?
We will then proceed with line by line. I would like to refer Members to page 154, Capital Expenditures Summary, public schools, $7,711,000.
Facility construction and maintenance: student residence, Whitehorse, $550,000.
On Public Schools
On Student Residence - Whitehorse
Hon. Mr. McDonald: It is not as if the Committee of the Whole has not seen this before. Mr. Devries may be new to this particular project, but certainly the other Members in the Legislature are quite cognizant of the project and the fact that there has been some difficulty securing the appropriate location and proper zoning within the City of Whitehorse. There is every indication, however, that the project should go to tender shortly, and the project will be undertaken.
Student Residence - Whitehorse in the amount of $550,000 agreed to
On Robert Service School - Upgrade/Expansion
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This brings us to the conclusion of this significant project in Dawson City. This funding is required to finish construction and undertake the final renovations. This should be the last expenditure for a total cost of approximately $9.1 million.
Mr. Devries: Is the school ready to move into now, or are there still problems, such as fumes?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The contractor was late in completing the contract, which extended the time frame for the move into the new facility by approximately a month. At this point, the plan is that Occupational Health and Safety will be in Dawson on the weekend taking sophisticated sniff tests and air-quality samples for analysis. If all proves to be in order, and if there is no danger whatsoever encountered with respect to fumes or otherwise, the move should take place in approximately one week or more. The air exhaust system, or the ventilation system, within the building has been working to remove the fumes caused by the various paints, et cetera. It has had sufficient time to reduce the odour and smells that may be emitted. Our expectation now is that everything is fine, but we will be taking final readings on the weekend.
Robert Service School - Upgrade/Extension in the amount of $761,000 agreed to
On Porter Creek Jr. Secondary - Expansion
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This is for extra classroom space and one library for this school. There is presently no room for a computer lab. For Members who are not familiar with the school, the special learning assistance class has been operating out of a storeroom. The specialty classrooms that were designed into the project - the home ec room and the science labs - are currently used for classroom space, which is not considered to be the optimal use of that space, so this project was selected to go ahead. Last year, we projected to spend about $106,000. This year, the $644,000 should bring it to a total cost of $750,000.
Porter Creek Jr. Secondary - Expansion in the amount of $644,000 agreed to
On Granger - Design/Construction Elem. School
Hon. Mr. McDonald: No matter what you build and no matter where you build it, you have to design it. This is the funding for the design.
Granger - Design/Construction Elem. School in the amount of $800,000 agreed to
On Jack Hulland - Upgrade and Renovation
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This is a two-year project to upgarde the school. Members will remember $400,000 in the last budget. This is a two-year project to upgrade the school by installing hot water lines to various classrooms, sinks with hot and cold running water, improvement of the sources of natural light and improvements to the ventilation system. This is a school of the nouveau-old design, which discouraged natural light. We are now of the view that natural light is a good thing. We are putting in appropriate windows and skylights.
Jack Hulland - Upgrade and Renovation in the amount of $350,000 agreed to
On F. H. Collins - Upgrade
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This is a general upgrade of FH Collins. The total cost is projected to be approximately $720,000 in 1989-90 dollars. Members will remember that last year we initiated work in the neighbourhood of $50,000 toward the upgrading of the floors, walls, fixtures and doors to meet the recommendations of the 1984 energy audit. It will, in its entirety, renovate and expand the administrative area for clerical and office space and increase storage space for student records. It will also replace the stage drapes.
F. H. Collins - Upgrade in the amount of $200,000 agreed to
On Selkirk - Upgrade and Renovations
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This is the first year of a two-year project to provide the necessary renovations to the old section of the school as identified in the facilities study. The immediate projects will be the upgrading of walls, floors, doors and various hardware. We will concentrate on renovations to the washrooms, some of the classrooms and the staff room. We will also be increasing storage space to provide proper separation from the boiler room. The fire separation walls and the washroom renovations are considered to be the first priorities.
Selkirk - Upgrade and Renovations in the amount of $50,000 agreed to
On Chief Zzeh Gittlet - School and Teacherage Upgrade
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This $60,000 is to improve the roofing of both the school and the teacherage to provide for exterior lights during the limited hours of daylight during the winter. The hand bell will be replaced with an automatic bell system and the washrooms will be renovated.
Chief Zzeh Gittlet - School and Teacherage Upgrade in the amount of $60,000 agreed to
On Watson Lake Secondary - Upgrade/Expansion
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am sure everyone is aware of this project. The project began in 1988-89 with the conception design being approved by the community committee - with block schematics and design drawings. For other Members’ information, other than the Member from Watson Lake, the community committee includes members of the school committee and the Town of Watson Lake, the community campus community and the Indian band. Wood, Gardner and O’Neil are the architects for the project. They will be undertaking detail design. The project should go ahead this year as planned.
Watson Lake Secondary - Upgrade/Expansion in the amount of 2,000,000 agreed to
On Whitehorse Elementary - Upgrade
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Members will know that in past years we have expended approximately $400,000 on this project. This year, $200,000 is necessary for a total of $600,000. There has been ongoing upgrading work to improve wall and floor finishings and plumbing and fixtures for the building. The Members may know that the library expansion and the career lab were included in the 1988-89 portion of the budget.
The project this year includes the design and construction of the bus loading zone and what was remaining of the exterior retrofit should have been tendered already. That constitutes the entirety of this upgrading program.
Whitehorse Elementary - Upgrade in the amount of $200,000 agreed to
On Grounds Improvement
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The priorities for 1989-90 include $65,000,000 for completion of the landscaping of the grounds and the sports field at the Carcross School. Refurbishing of grounds after construction of the Robert Service School, the re-location of equipment and sports field activities is $100,000. Members will know that the old school will be removed under an existing contract, which will leave a space for a new field to be installed there.
There are a few other things on the list: the installation of playground equipment and upgrading of the driveway, parking and landscaping at the Johnson Elementary School at Watson Lake for $85,000, topsoil and grass seed for the sports fields, the installation of irrigation lines to the field from the school and fencing to control school traffic at the St. Elias Community School in Haines Junction comes to $50,000, refurbishing the soccer field, installation of a sprinkler and upgrading the track at FH Collins High School comes to $100,000, refurbishing the grounds around the school in Old Crow comes to $20,000. There was $35,000 for grounds improvement in the Elsa School, which will be reconsidered to determine the actual need. There is ongoing maintenance to all the schools for a total of $83,000.
Those are the total projects that will be considered as the priority ones for this year.
Grounds Improvement in the amount of $300,000 agreed to
On Install Computer Labs
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The priority projects for this year are Ross River, Porter Creek Junior Secondary, Selkirk Street, and JV Clark School.
Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us just how much money we are spending on computers within the pubic school system, and what is the computer/pupil or pupil/computer ratio now?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The provision of computer labs over all the years totals $540,000. We have spent $97,000 so far; this year it is predicted at $120,000. We spent, in the first year, after we adopted the computer policy, in the neighbourhood of $300,000 for computer equipment, et cetera. It is now in the neighbourhood of $250,000, as I recall. The student/computer ratio, I believe, is eight to one and is the best student/computer ratio in North America, with the exception of one school district in the San Francisco area.
Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us how our students are doing on a comparative basis with other students across Canada, or do we have that kind of information here?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I will take notice of the question with respect to the actual comparative data, to the extent that it has been undertaken. I do know that the people who have done analyses on the computer programing within the schools recognized the value and the increased computer literacy skills of the students within the school system and the ability of those students to undertake learning programs with the appropriate software. It is considered by just about everyone I have spoken to, to have been a wise move by the department, and if it has the various support services, including the computer inservicing for the teachers, it is at least meeting the expectations that the public has. If there is any information of a more scientific nature that can assess the quality of the program, I will certainly make it available.
Install Computer Labs in the amount of $120,000 agreed to
On Christ the King High - Renovations
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This is one of two projects that was slated a number of years ago but was delayed for the upgrading of Christ the King High School. The first project was the upgrading of the library that was undertaken in this last year with funding of $90,000. This is the upgrading of the science room to meet the facility standards and to complete the library renovation project that was undertaken last year.
Christ the King High - Renovations in the amount of $150,000 agreed to
On Gymnasium Floor Refinishing - Various Schools
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The refinishing projects include Selkirk Street School and FH Collins School, considered to be the schools having some of the heaviest use due to joint-use agreements. These schools are scheduled for refinishing. If there are funds left over, then other schools will also experience refinishing.
Gymnasium Floor Refinishing - Various Schools in the amount of $100,000 agreed to
On Handicap Access Alterations - Various Schools
Hon. Mr. McDonald: A lift will be installed at Whitehorse Elementary School in 1989-90, as I mentioned in my opening remarks. Members are familiar with some of the projects that were laid out in the previous years. Three lifts were added to FH Collins in the past, to enable handicapped students to reach the second level for their classes. FH Collins has a rather unique design in the sense that one lift would not be sufficient.
The project this year is primarily to provide a lift at Whitehorse Elementary School.
Handicap Access Alterations - Various Schools in the amount of $100,000 agreed to
On Miscellaneous School Facilities Alterations
Hon. Mr. McDonald: These are exactly that. I will just run through them, for the Members’ information. There are not that many of them here.
Storage and alterations to the vice-principal’s office and library renovations at Porter Creek Junior Secondary, $15,000. The installation of fume hoods and the reclamation of the French language area, at FH Collins, for $19,000. Shelving units at Grey Mountain School, for $10,000. Protective covering for windows around the courtyard at Johnson Elementary, $7,500. The installation of eavestroughs and downspouts at St. Elias, $8,000. The modifiation of doors at Teslin School for $8,700. Door improvements for both fire-rating and strengthening at Old Crow for $5,700. The improvements to the entrance foyer and washroom fixtures at the Elsa School, $15,000. Alterations to the equivalency education classroom at FH Collins, for $10,000. The insulation of wet areas at the elementary classrooms at JV Clark School, $12,000. There is the insulation of various windows et cetera and miscellaneous projects for principals’ and counsellors’ offices at various schools, for $13,500, and $55,500 miscellaneous school maintenance for projects that are not provided by Government Services.
Miscellaneous School Facilities Alterations in the amount of $180,000 agreed to
On Del Van Gorder - Upgrade
Hon. Mr. McDonald: As the Members know, at the time that the budget was developed, there was still a substantial question as to what would be done with the old and new gym attached to Del Van Gorder.
In December of last year and January of this year, the report had still not arrived respecting the future of the gymnasium. Last year, the school committee had asked that further engineering be done to determine whether or not the facility could be salvaged. The engineering report that came in was sponsored by Government Services. It indicated that it could not be salvaged. At this point, the decision is to have the building removed, subject to the allocation of funds.
Del Van Gorder - Upgrade in the amount of one dollar agreed to
On Kluane Lake - Upgrade
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The project is to rehabilitate the interior and exterior of the schools, and upgrade the windows, the carpeting in the classrooms, to replace the furnace and improve the lighting. It is a one-year project and should be done this summer.
Kluane Lake - Upgrade in the amount of $166,000 agreed to
On Industrial Education and Home Economics
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This was a standard item to provide equipment for various schools around the territory in the field of industrial education and home economics. The same is true for the items of physical education equipment, musical instruments, drapes and instructional computers.
Mr. Devries: If these items are large dollar items, are they tendered or do we just go shopping for them?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Even though the figure of $100,000 is a substantial sum, it involves the purchase of various small equipment. Through their good auspices, Government Services provides for the purchase of the requirements of the school system.
Mr. Devries: My main concern is regarding the instructional computers. In listening to remarks I have picked up from students, especially in the higher grades, there seems to be a concentration strictly on Apple and Macs whereas, if they were switched over to IBM compatibles, it would save them having to take additional courses once they got out of the school to acquire the knowledge about how to operate the IBM compatibles. Several people seemed to indicate that there is money being wasted in this transition area. I think the Apple computers are fine in the elementary schools but, once you get up to grade 10, it would be more advantageous for students to take the courses on IBM compatibles. Several of the computers use the same type of software, but IBMs have function keys and Apples do not. There are different areas that could be improved.
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The Member makes a valid observation. The reason Apple has been the company of choice by the Department of Education for many years is because of the software packages they provide. The research they undertake in public school programming is ranked number one. For their initiatives in the provision of computer software, IBM is not so heavily involved in the public school system in the United States, and it is Apple that ranks number one in the provision of software and the selection provided. It also does a tremendous amount of research into software and is considered to be far superior to the competition.
In the senior grades, the move to IBM compatibles is something the college has been pursuing. As Members will note, the introduction to business education computers would necessitate the stocking of computer equipment that is compatible to the IBM system, at least in the view of the people operating the Computer Education Program.
For that reason, there is a transition period where we do make use of the Apple system because of the superior quality of their software and the research they do undertake in public school education. As we move into the senior grades and into college, we will move to something that is related to IBM or IBM compatible, which appears to be the wisest choice.
Industrial Education and Home Economics in the amount of $100,000 agreed to
On Physical Education Equipment
Physical Education Equipment in the amount of $40,000 agreed to
On Musical Instruments
Musical Instruments in the amount of $30,000 agreed to
On Drapes
Drapes in the amount of $40,000 agreed to
On Instructional Computers
Instruction Computers in the amount of $300,000 agreed to
On Learning Resource Centre Miscellaneous Equipment
Learning Resource Centre Miscellaneous Equipment in the amount of $20,000 agreed to
On Special Education
Special Education in the amount of $20,000 agreed to
On Kindergarten Equipment
Kindergarten Equipment in the amount of $15,000 agreed to
On Instructional Computer - Business Education
Instructional Computer - Business Education in the amount of $100,000 agreed to
On A.V. Library, Office and Equipment
A.V. Library, Office and Equipment in the amount of $275,000 agreed to
On Classrooms Equipment - French Immersion
Mr. Devries: Would this be recovered through federal assitance for language training?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I understand that it is not.
Classrooms Equipment - French Immersion in the amount of $30,000 agreed to
On Materials - Ecole Emilie Tremblay
Materials - Ecole Emilie Tremblay in the amount of $2,000 agreed to
On Instructional French Language Computer
Instructional French Language Computer in the amount of $6,000 agreed to
On Audio Visual Equipment
Audio Visual Equipment in the amount of $2,000 agreed to
Public Schools in the amount of $7,711,000 agreed to
On Advanced Education
On Yukon College New Building
Mr. Devries: Could the Minister be a little more specific as to where this money is going now?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The gym at the college.
Yukon College New Building in the amount of $2,132,000 agreed to
On Community Campuses - Construction
Hon. Mr. McDonald: This is for the construction of community campus facilities in Old Crow.
Mrs. Firth: Would the Minister give us more detail as to what type of facility is going to be constructed there? I do not see any projections in the multi-year program. Is this $700,000 the total cost of that community campus?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: That is correct. It is expected to be approximately 2400 square feet and the projected building costs are about $333 per square foot. Because of the transportation requirements, as the Members know, the community campus facility in Old Crow is shared with the new Renewable Resources trailer but has never been considered to be adequate accommodation. In an effort to improve campus facilities around the territory, it was felt that this was a high priority.
Mrs. Firth: Where is it going to be located in Old Crow?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Well, I am going on memory, but I will as the Member for Old Crow. Would it be correct, Madam Chair that it would be on church property?
Ms. Kassi: No. It would be beside the community centre.
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I would be correct if I state that it would be beside the community centre, then.
Mrs. Firth: Is that on YTG land or is it being built on someone else’s property?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The facility would be built on YTG property.
Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us how many students are projected to use the facility?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I am not sure what the activity level is in Old Crow. As I understand it, though, the use of the facility has increased during the past couple of years - the community campus has only been in existence for the last couple of years, so I guess it had to have increased from prior to that. I will find out all this information.
Mr. Devries: This is regarding community campus construction. The Watson Lake High School, for instance, will have two rooms and a reception area that will be designated as community campus for Yukon College. Mind you, it will not be built this year, but will be next year. Will a separate budget be included for that portion of the construction or will it all be combined in the public schools budget for Capital Expenditures?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The Member has quite correctly identified Watson Lake as probably being the most fortunate of the communities with respect to the provision of community campus facilities. The campus facilities themselves are incorporated into the public schools budget.
Community Campuses - Construction in the amount of $700,000 agreed to
On Northern Research Lab - Construction
Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could tell us what this is for? Is this one lab that costs $50,000? What exactly is this item?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I will get to that question immediately. The activity levels at the Old Crow community campus in the first year consisted of two students in drafting and surveying, 11 students in economic development, four students in economic development drop in, three students in personal skills development, six students in computer literacy and seven students in small engine repair. In the current year, I do not have the number of students who are attending the courses, but they are offering a continuation of economic development - the business communications course, the Accounting 300 course, a 16 week carpenter’s helper course, basic welding, small business management, typing, adult native language, tourism hospitality and English communications.
As Members will remember, a lab area was incorporated into the trades wing of Yukon College, which was meant to support a mineral technology program. It should not escape anybody’s attention that the Yukon College does not offer a mining and extraction technology program. Instead, it was converted to a northern research lab, with half of the area dedicated to an industry project and the other half dedicated to research projects that would support the Northern Studies Program in the northern sciences section, especially in the fields of archaeology, geology and remote sensing. The industry project was co-sponsored, I understand, with the Klondike Placer Miners Association.
Mr. Devries: So I would be correct in stating that this $50,000 actually adds to the cost overruns on the Yukon College building in a certain sense?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: If the Member wishes to interpret them as cost overruns, that is his business; I do not. The project itself requires the renovation of a room to fill specific requirements, and I am sure there will be renovations from time to time to ensure that the physical plant of Yukon College meets the requirements of the day. There will be upgrading from time to time and a rearrangement of space from time to time, I am sure, in the years and decades to come, which will make the space most usable for its users.
Northern Research Lab - Construction in the amount of $50,000 agreed to
On New Equipment - existing programs
New Equipment - existing programs in the amount of $15,000 agreed to
On New Gymnasium Equipment
Mr. Devries: Could we get a few more specifics? Is there any specialized equipment coming in on that?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I do not have a specific breakdown at the present time. The college gym, as it will be built, will basically be the empty building. Because the old college did not have a gymnasium, the new one must be fully equipped. I know there is an equipment list, because I did see it, ever so briefly, and I can certainly make sure that it is provided.
Mrs. Firth: Who is going to be able to use the gym that is to be built? Is it going to be open to the public?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The primary users will be the college users generally, and that includes the full range of staff, students, everyone. Initially, while the college is still in the hands of the government, the facility will be available under a joint-use arrangement with the City of Whitehorse. As part of the transfer negotiations, joint-use agreements will be struck for the college facilities, including the gym, for adoption by the board.
Mrs. Firth: The Minister is saying that, once the board takes over, will be responsible for administering the joint-use agreement and, if someone in the public wants to use that facility, they will have to approach the board of the college? If that is correct, when is that going to happen, and when will that process be in place?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The arrangement that will be struck will be a joint-use agreement with the City of Whitehorse, in all likelihood, so the City of Whitehorse can retain its role as the clearing house for space requests by the public within the city. I would trust that will be continued as being the most administratively sensible option.
In general terms, the transfer of the college - personnel and administration - should take place by the end of the calendar year. The transfer of facilities and the responsibility for facilities will take place either then or shortly thereafter.
New Gymnasium Equipment in the amount of $140,000 agreed to
On Replacement Equipment - existing programs
Replacement Equipment - existing programs in the amount of $50,000 agreed to
On New Equipment - new programs
New Equipment - new programs in the amount of $20,000 agreed to
On Yukon College - Community Campuses Equipment
Yukon College - Community Campuses Equipment in the amount of $130,000 agreed to
On Furniture and Equipment
Furniture and Equipment in the amount of $10,000 agreed to
Advanced Education in the amount of $3,247,000 agreed to
Chair: We will turn to Libraries and Archives on page 160. Is there general debate?
On Libraries and Archives
Chair: We will proceed with line by line.
On Library Planning - Whitehorse
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The archives will be moving to the college site and will be leaving substantial space in the appendage to this structure. The idea is to ensure that the appropriate planning is done so the Whitehorse Public Library can have its facilities expanded into the space vacated by the archives.
Mrs. Firth: So, the Minister is saying that this space is going to be used strictly for library expansion? We are not going to look at having government offices down there or anything like that?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: That is correct.
Library Planning - Whitehorse in the amount of $50,000 agreed to
On Community Library Development - various
Mr. Devries: Are there any major developments in that area? Would one of them be putting a library into the Robert Service School?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The design of the new Robert Service School incorporates the public library and the school library. They will be administered separately, through separate budgets, I presume, but they will be housed in the same facility, and they will be a joint activity between the two services.
Community Library Development - various in the amount of $91,000 agreed to
On Branch Library Equipment
Branch Library Equipment in the amount of $25,000 agreed to
On Audio-Visual Equipment
Audio-Visual Equipment in the amount of $20,000 agreed to
On Library Equipment
Library Equipment in the amount of $10,000 agreed to
On New Archives Facility
Mrs. Firth: The Minister talked about design work. Is the $2,700,000 all for design work? When are they going to start building this project? When will it be completed?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: The project, as I understand, should go to tender this spring or early summer. The total project is $4.4 million. This is the final budget vote. There will be a roll over revote for the balance of this to bring it up to the total. It should be undertaken this year and completed in 1990.
New Archives Facility in the amount of $2,700,000 agreed to
On Storage Area and Equipment
Storage Area and Equipment in the amount of $25,000 agreed to
On Conservation Assessment
Conservation Assessment in the amount of $16,000 agreed to
On Display Preparations and Maintenance
Display Preparations and Maintenance in the amount of $15,000 agreed to
Libraries & Archives in the amount of $2,952,000 agreed to
On Finance and Administration
On Yukon Arts Centre
Mrs. Firth: I understand this is the government’s contribution to the Arts Centre, and I would like to ask the Minister why the Arts Centre is put down in the multi-year projections as $7 million? I thought that this centre was going to cost over $9 million. I noticed last year it was put down as a multi-year cost of $7 million as well. Perhaps the Minister could just clarify that for me.
Hon. Mr. McDonald: My understanding is that the rationale for the figure is that it is the total Government of Yukon contribution to the project. I notice that in all the other projects there are no partners in the construction, but the total estimated costs for all these projects are the government’s contribution towards this project.
Mrs. Firth: Is the Minister saying that the government is contributing $7 million toward the Arts Centre?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Yes, that has been the understanding. Irrespective of what the total amount is, the total contribution by the Government of Yukon is to be $7 million.
Mrs. Firth: I have one more question regarding this item. It is in conjunction with the archives facility and the college and the gym. Does the Minister have a name for all these facilities yet? The last time we discussed this, I believe he made reference to it as “Yukon Place”. There were comments made about what we were going to call the whole structure as it stands now, with the college building, the archival facility, the arts centre, the gym and the residences. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us on that.
Hon. Mr. McDonald: I realize that the suggestion of “Yukon Place” does seem rather ordinary or lifeless. For lack of a better name, until some more imaginative people come forward, we will refer to it as “Yukon Place”. I am sure the Arts Centre Corporation will have some great and distinct ideas about the naming for that component. None of the buildings have been named. There have been no changes with reference to the full site itself.
Mrs. Firth: Perhaps we could recommend to the Minister that if the board is going to handle the naming it look at a competition for school students or get some community involvement. I think then we will have creative suggestions coming forward. Either the Minister could do something like that, or the board could pull together some creative and exciting competition and allow school children to participate and give them a more involved sense of it being their post-secondary education facility and giving good strong community spirit. Our recommendation would be that the government look at some kind of opportunity for the whole complex to be named or the individual buildings to be named, whatever seems to be the consensus.
Hon. Mr. McDonald: It is a good suggestion. I will undertake to have some naming contests initiated. I think if we depend on our own resources to name this building it will be “Yukon U” forever. Something a little more dramatic would be desirable, at least for the naming of the buildings themselves.
Yukon Arts Centre in the amount of $2,000,000 agreed to
On Custodial Equipment
Custodial Equipment in the amount of $30,000 agreed to
Finance and Administration in the amount $2,030,000 agreed to
Department of Education in the amount of $15,940,000 agreed to
Chair: If it is the wish of the Committee we will take a brief recess.
Recess
Chair: Committee of the Whole will now come to order. We will continue with Bill No. 51, the Department of Government Services, on page 188. Is there any general debate?
Mrs. Firth: I do not recall doing the grants and contributions in Education on page 154.
Chair: It is carried within the vote. If you have questions ...
Mrs. Firth: Are we going to do it under operation and maintenance transfer payments, and I will have a chance to ask some questions? Okay, that is fine.
Chair: We will continue with Government Services on page 188.
Department of Government Services
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have a few remarks to make about the Capital portion of Government Services. I have additional information relating to the line-by-line items, which I will leave until we get to that place in the budget.
The capital program presented here places greater emphasis on the planning and capital construction projects and, accordingly, you will see in the budget that the pre-engineering, design and construction overhead programs have significant increases. As Members have reminded me, the Public Accounts Committee has identified this as an area of attention.
As well, I feel that increased attention will be shown in the area of local materials. It is the intention of the department to spend more time to specifically begin the project design and specifications to utilize local material where possible. As Members may be aware, this is something we are currently in discussions with contractors on, as well as chambers of commerce and the labour organizations, with respect to the value-added policy.
As well, there will continue to be emphasis on implementing energy conservation projects for government buildings. At the same time, something the department and I are currently addressing is the entire issue of long-term space requirement for government in Whitehorse, addressing the issue of lease space and a plan and policy relating to how to best address the needs of government on the space question.
Those are some general opening remarks. I would be pleased to discuss any specific issue or item relating to individual branches of the department and line-by-line items. I have additional information as we go through each of those, and particularly at the introduction of each of the branches.
Mr. Lang: Probably the most outstanding critique that can be made of the department is of the responsibility the department has for the purposes of overall planning for projects. I see that substantially more money has been put into the area of planning.
I would like to know what steps the government is taking in an effort to ensure the projects being tendered are within a reasonable striking range of what the tenders will be coming in at. We have a situation where people are bidding at great cost to themselves, then they find out that the government, for one reason or another, in most cases due to financing, turns around and revokes the contract and does not tender it. This is at great cost to the individuals involved. The government has almost a flippant attitude about this. It is in the clause of the contract so they just pull it. The contractor is just supposed to fend for himself or herself. I do not think that is fair. I would like to know what steps the government is taking to ensure that the projects that we are being asked to vote here are going to come within budget or at least within an acceptable five or 10 percent range of what we are budgeting for these projects.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I thank the Member for his question. It is certainly one that we flagged together in the supplementary discussions previous to the Mains coming before us today.
In some instances there have been some cases where the budget was developed using estimates that turned out to be low, in many cases. At the same time, in a couple of instances, however, they were actually high and there were projects that came in well under.
I guess this is an issue that the government is serious about addressing and, in particular, it is one that I have set as a priority to address. It goes hand in hand with the whole effort that was addressed by the Public Accounts Committee, about the handling of projects from beginning to end. The pre-planning exercise, the planning exercise, the implementation exercise all result in the final construction.
I think that it has already been mentioned that the department, on the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee, and, from what I understand, by the commitment of the previous Minister, has embarked on a project management manual. I understand that it is in at least the third stage. I have not seen it yet, but I have been advised of some of its contents, speaking to the whole issue of Government Services being charged with delivering a project and its relationship with the client department for whom it is doing the project. Certainly, we will see a much better project estimate as a result of some of the steps that are being proposed to be put in place. There will be a much closer relationship between the client department and Government Services, a much closer accounting process of funding and, by and large, an expanded planning exercise.
For example, the Department of Community Services, for the most part, has implemented a two-year planning and construction exercise, meaning that what Members will find in a budget in one year on a new project will be largely a planning component. In the subsequent year, there will be the actual construction. This allows a time frame where a job is not rushed; there is more accuracy to the figures being assigned and, through the steps that take place between the client department and Government Services, there is a better refinement of the reality of things.
Government Services appears, historically, to have been caught in the bind of having to plan and build in the same year, and as the Member observed, more money is being directed at the planning exercise, and clearly that should permit much more realistic figures and subsequently accurate estimates for the final construction.
The project management manual I refer to is, as I said, in the final stage of effort. I expect to be reviewing it with department officials soon and it is my hope that we can implement this very quickly. I gather as well, that in light of some of the efforts to date, some efforts are already taking place to extend and refine the planning period in order to more accurately reflect estimates in the early stages.
Mr. Lang: I just remind the House that the Public Accounts recommendations that we are dealing with, I think were accepted by this House almost a year ago if not longer, yet at the same time there was $110 million last year and the $100 million this year, and we still do not formally have anything in place. I just want to register my observation that we should be finding that unacceptable if we are very serious about ensuring that we are getting the best mileage for the dollars we have. When is this document going to be complete and ready for tabling?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: To answer the last question first, I would expect that if it is not ready for actual tabling before this session of the House concludes, I will ensure that every Member gets a copy following its final acceptance and adoption. The Member recognizes the importance of this procedure to the government; I will make it available.
I believe, and I am working strictly from memory, when the House last dealt with the Public Accounts Committee recommendations, there was a commitment that such a project manual would be in place within a year of the time of discussion. Again, I am working from memory, but that year is not yet up, but certainly, I recognize not only the commitment, but the obligation to refine this.
Mr. Lang: I understand the stress the department is under too, because it does have a lot of responsibilities and at the same time the importance of this cannot be overlooked. It has to be a top priority item to ensure that it is done properly and to also not only give guidance to Government Services but other departments.
I had another question to the Minister. The service contracts that have been assembled, when will they be tabled - tomorrow?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have been staying very close to the development surrounding the contracts. It is my understanding, as of today, that there are still several contracts being entered into the system. We should have a final run of the contracts, I am assuming, at the latest, tomorrow and they are going to the printers simultaneously. We may or may not have them ready for Thursday tabling. I can assure the Member they will be tabled Monday at the latest.
Mr. Lang: The next time around, on April 1, let us just have the contracts that are in. Copies of those that are delayed can be sent to us. We are then not waiting around. In view of the time frame of our sitting, in deference to the House, we should have whatever information we require. I would rather have 98 percent of it than have to wait for that other two percent, which could come afterward, in any event. Is the Minister prepared to make that undertaking?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I take the Member’s advice. He must recognize that if we are going to produce an earlier, incomplete document, there will be documents to follow, or contract listings to follow. It is impossible to have them ready on the first day after the year end. The terms of one contract for registering are being flown in from Old Crow on the plane today. That is what is happening to compile a complete and accurate contracts listing. I take the Member’s advice under full consideration, and we will see what we can do next year.
Mr. Lang: We have not had that debate with respect to when the House sits, and it will come up. We could well be in a situation where we may be dealing with the O&M Budget in any given year in the late fall. In that case, the date would have to be changed so we can deal with those documents in conjunction with our budgets, as opposed to waiting for year end.
Year end is not that important to us. It is the end of a month, and that is it. There is going to have to be some accommodation on dates concerned.
I do not have any other questions in general debate. I am prepared to go on to line by line.
Chair: We will proceed with line by line.
On Systems and Computing Services
On System Development
Hon. Mr. Byblow: Under the systems development portion of the budget, the entire facility is designed to provide data processing for the government and, in that regard, to provide support service for all the government. In short, it amounts to computer access between departments for government and throughout the communities.
Some examples of what is specifically taking place within this year’s budget relate to driver records, systems specifically relating to the Department of Community and Transportation Services, providing computer access to territorial agents around the territory. Additionally, there are data systems developed for Health and Human Resources, with computer access in the communities.
This particular budget also provides for some development and implementation money throughout the Yukon. As Members will note, there is a considerable decrease from last year. The short answer for that is that, as many of the systems have been developed, budget restraint dictated cutting back in this area.
Mr. Lang: How much is projected for the whole program? You said there was restraint this year. Are we talking about $10 million or $5 million? What is the total amount that is going to be spent in order to update the system?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: With respect to systems development and implementation, last year $2.4 million was spent, this year $1.2 million is being spent. In comparison to last year, it is chopped in half. Is that the question?
Mr. Lang: There must be a multi-year plan about what has to be done or what people would like to see done. What is your total projected cost?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I do not have figures that would spell out future years’ costs in any extended fashion. I understand the department essentially receives the requests from various departments, priorizes them and budgets accordingly.
Mr. Lang: Basically, I would like to know, in general terms, what we are talking about over the next two or three years with respect to this particular program. Would the Minister undertake, for the next budget, to present to us an idea of what the departments are asking for, to give us an idea of what finances we are going to be dealing with during the next three to four years?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: So that I understand the request, I assume the Member is asking for anticipated, future years’ expansion to computer and data processing for all departments.
System Development in the amount of $1,200,000 agreed to
On Computer Workstations - Equipment and Support
Hon. Mr. Byblow: As indicated, computer workstations provide support for regular work duties relating to word processing, electronic spreadsheets, access to data and various ordinary forms of electronic communication for departments. The lower budget this year reflects restraint in this area.
Computer Workstations - Equipment and Support in the amount of $250,000 agreed to
On Central Facility
Hon. Mr. Byblow: As suggested, this is the program that provides the main storage database for the government where there are multiple users. In other words, it is the central activity for data. It provides for similar workstations throughout the Yukon to share the information. That is the intended expenditure for this year for the central facility. It would also, in part, be financing some of the expanded services that are going on in the communities.
Mr. Lang: I will go back to my question about the systems development. We spent $563,000 last year, and we are projecting $600,000 this year. It was just a number of years ago that we took out the mainframe that we had paid a few hundreds of thousands of dollars for. We sold it for under $20,000 because it could not cope with what the government needed.
Is this it? Will this effectively give us the central facility we need with some minor modifications over the next three to five years?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I share some of the Member’s concerns. One of the exercises in future budgeting will be to assess future costs. Part of the costs that happen each year, as I am sure the Member realizes, is that as you bring a new program on, you have to bring in the data support system for it.
I guess a simple answer is that any time you increase a capacity, for example in the communities, you have to make sure that you have the central facility support to access, store and exchange that information.
Mr. Lang: I will not argue that, and I am the last one to say that I am an expert on computers. My concern is that we replaced the previous computer at a great deal of expense under the understanding there was a larger computer that could do so much more work. Now we are being told that we need another $600,000. What is the end result here? Will we be voting another $600,000 next year, or are we at the end of our capitalization for this particular project with perhaps some minor modifications as we move along? Asking us to vote this much money each year really begs questions. Yet at the same time, like the service contracts, we still have to wait anyway. It does not make much difference.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: Good shot. My understanding is that the capital for the central facility is essentially spent. We are expanding the capacity for it to handle the increasing programs that are punched into it. I will undertake, for the next budget period, to have a long-term guesstimate and analysis of expanded computer and data processing facilities.
Central Facility in the amount of $600,000 agreed to
On Telephone Equipment
Mrs. Firth: I would like to ask the Minister what this is for. It is a new item in the budget. It was not in last year’s Capital Budget.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: My understanding of the one dollar item is essentially to leave the vote open to be dealt with once further information is known. There is a current analysis being undertaken to refine whether there is any cost benefit to purchasing telephone equipment as opposed to leasing it. That study, I am told, is underway. It is essentially a cost-benefit analysis about whether or not it would incur major savings to the government. Once that study is delivered, it will provide some basis for decision making.
Mrs. Firth: It sounds like a blank cheque to me. Who is doing this cost benefit analysis? How much is it costing us? Where did the money come from to do this analysis? When did it start, and when do they expect to have an answer to it?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am advised that, at this stage, it will be done in-house. It will fall under O&M for costing. There is no outside expenditure expected at this point.
Mr. Lang: I would like an undertaking from the Minister that we are not giving him a blank cheque to spend $100,000 to $300,000. I hope the Minister would give the undertaking that if the study comes in and proves this cost benefit is beneficial to the government, we be given the opportunity to scrutinize it in the House prior to any substantial decision being made to purchase new telephones. That can get very costly. Will the Minister give us that undertaking?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am sure the Member realizes that no major decision is going to be undertaken without a close scrutiny of its benefit to the government and whether there are funds available to undertake this. Like a previous debate we had relating to photocopy equipment, there is a substantial benefit related to buying out certain leases and owning the equipment. That decision was taken, and I suspect it was taken before a supplementary came forward for any additional money. The money was found internally. I would trust the Members opposite would trust the judgment of this Member for the wise expenditure of funds.
Mr. Lang: I am not prepared to endorse a blank cheque. I am sure the Minister is going to do what he feels is right. I do not question that. My point is that I think it is an area that should be examined. I do not want to be sitting here in the House saying we agree in principle. We have not seen the cost benefit analysis, and we do not know what the costs are going to be. Is this cost benefit analysis going to be made available to those who are leasing the equipment to you, so that they have the opportunity to give their point of view in respect to what the costs are? It could all depend on the author how the recommendations come forward.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I trust the Member realizes the lack of information we have at this point to discuss the matter in any great detail. The study has not even begun yet. This is the approval for it to proceed. It is being done in-house. Given the Member’s interest in the matter, I can undertake to communicate with him once I receive the study.
Mr. Lang: He did not answer the latter part of my question. Is this study going to be made available to the company or companies that lease this type of equipment for their observations in respect to that study so you have the various points of view?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: It appears to me that I have to take some advice on the question. It is going to be an in-house document. It is going to contain some substantial analysis of our current costs of telephone equipment leasing. It is going to, no doubt, have quite a number of scenarios and options within it. I cannot give the Member a firm commitment that this will be provided to everyone. I prefer to take advice on that and check the wisdom of handing such a document out.
Mrs. Firth: This is a concern I have. What the government is doing here is to ask us to approve a new program. I mean, once there is a line item here that says “Telephone Equipment - one dollar” it means that the government can go out and purchase $1 million worth of telephones and never have to come back to this Legislature for approval. They have the approval here for one dollar, then can come back with a supplementary to say that they did it, if they can find the money elsewhere within the budget. However, what we are asking the Minister for is some explanation of what the government’s policy is and what its intention is, and he is telling us he cannot tell us that, because they are studying it, and if the study is being done in-house, it should not be costing any extra dollars, really, to do the study, if the department officials are doing it.
So, based on the results of that study, this line item in the budget gives the government the ability to go ahead and pretty well do whatever it wants, and perhaps the Minister could give us some indication if it is the intention of the government to get into purchasing telephones, that instead of renting them, as they do now, they are going to purchase telephones so that the telephone systems within the government then will be owned by the government, they will be maintained by the government, and again, we have the government controlling everything.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I do not want to get into a major debate about something that is currently being examined. The Member talks about policy. The policy currently is to lease telephone equipment, not to purchase. Clearly, what I have indicated is that a decision has been taken here to study the cost benefit of leasing over purchasing. I do not know the results of the internal investigation, the analysis. I cannot predict what will happen. Clearly, what is taking place here is that the policy is being examined as to whether it is wiser to lease than acquire. Yes, the Member is correct, there are a number of factors that come into play about who maintains the equipment and what is the long-term ramification. That will all be, no doubt, provided in the study. The Member says that this gives a blank cheque. I do not think that is the case. Should some decision be made, clearly we are committed to coming back to the Legislature to defend it and to deal with the decision. There ought to be some prerogative here and I make no contention that I know what is going to happen; I do not, and I am being up front about it.
Mr. Lang: Can we have the undertaking from the Minister that we may have a copy of the report that is done? You are asking us to give you vote authority on a report that is not even done. We do not have a problem with an examination being done but, if you are asking us to make some significant long-term changes, we should the information on why those decisions have been made, or are going to be made. There is no reason we should not have a copy of that report.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: If that is what the Member is asking for, I have already indicated that, once the study is done, I will communicate to him. I will now undertake a step further. I will communicate the results of the study to him.
Telephone Equipment in the amount of one dollar agreed to
Systems and Computing Services in the amount of $2,050,000 agreed to
On Supply and Services
Chair: Is there any general debate?
Mr. Lang: I would like an assurance from the Minister that we are not going into areas that are presently being provided to the government by the private sector. The government has to be very careful in this area. Over the years, governments have steadily encouraged people to get into the business similar to that of the Queen’s Printer. We have to be very careful that we do not intrude to the point of taking business away from them. Could the Minister give us that undertaking and assurance?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am assured by the department that we are not expanding our level of service, or quantity of service, or type of service, that would infringe on what is ordinarily the private sector area of supply under this vote. One thing that has been pointed out to me is that we are taking even more advantage of the private sector by using warranties of equipment more than we have in the past.
On Queen’s Printer Equipment
Hon. Mr. Byblow: This specific item is to replace equipment in the Queen’s Printer for $92,000 and, also, to purchase a number of photocopiers for various departments in the amount of $96,000.
Queen’s Printer Equipment in the amount of $188,000 agreed to
On Office Furniture - Replacement
Hon. Mr. Byblow: This capital item relates, as the topic suggests, to the acquisition of furniture. Approximately one-third of the amount would be used to purchase locally manufactured furniture. Indications from the industry are that local manufacturers are more able to provide office furniture. That is the result of some effort by this government to encourage that. I would like to see this encouraged as much as possible. I have a firm belief that we are not doing as much as we possibly could be doing in the utilization of local products, particularly wood.
Mr. Lang: Can the Minister tell us exactly what a locally-made desk would cost now?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have to take notice of that. I will undertake to get back to the Member on that specific question.
Mr. Lang: My only point is that we have no problem with items being made locally; it is just a question of what the cost is to us. The cost has to be equated to the service the government is getting. There is another $300,000 that the Minister has not accounted for. If the $150,000 is for local, what is the balance for?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: It is the office furniture that would be acquired from local suppliers. It is other furniture that could not be produced locally. I am sure the Member recognizes that when you say you are going to spend one-third of this by purchasing locally-produced desks or chairs or other forms of furniture, a substantial amount also has to be ordered from regular suppliers who import from outside. That is the split.
Mr. Lang: Will this money also cover the new furniture that is going to be required for the 70 or 80 new positions within the government of which 40 are yet to be filled? Will this come out of here or will it come out of some other area?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: Any positions, including new ones, that require new furniture, would come out of this budget. The Member makes reference to 70 new positions. I hope he understands that a good number of those positions are ones that already exist, such as terms that were made indeterminate or where teachers are being added to the system. The suggestion that there are 70 new bodies to be accommodated and supplied with furniture is simply not the case. The majority of the positions do not require the additional expenditure related to space or furniture.
Mr. Lang: How many of these positions are going to require new furniture out of this particular vote?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The best answer I can provide the Member is that there may be 12 positions that may require new furniture.
Office Furniture - Replacement in the amount of $450,000 agreed to
On Pooled Vehicles - Replacement
Hon. Mr. Byblow: This item is to provide for the purchase of vehicles in the pool fleet. Members will note that last year’s expenditure was extremely low due to other priorities. There is a requirement to replace some vehicles.
Mr. Lang: I want to reiterate my concern. We are being asked to spend $300,000. Are we spending $300,000 here so that $50,000 can be budgeted and then $250,000 can be moved around? That is what happened last year. We budgeted $300,000 and $40,000 was spent on vehicles. That is total misrepresentation. Are we going to spend $300,000? If we are, give us a list of what you are going to spend it on. Otherwise, do not come to the House and ask for these figures. It makes a joke of the whole thing we are doing.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The short answer to the Member’s question is that the money is intended to be spent for vehicles. Last year, Government Services had to replace the money from discontinuance of charge-backs for equipment and services that had to be borne by the department but could not be charged back, and it came out of the pool fleet.
Mr. Lang: I will accept that. I want an undertaking from the Minister that if we are going to budget $300,000 to replace vehicles, then it should be in that neighbourhood. I do not want to come back here 10 months from now and find we spent $20,000 on vehicle replacement and someone else walked away with $280,000 and spent it somewhere else.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member knows that I listen very closely to everything he says. I scrutinize Hansard every day just to be sure that I am giving full consideration to the Member’s suggestions and I give it to him on record.
Mr. Lang: I will take that as an undertaking that we are not going to be seeing a great amount of this money going someplace else in the department.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member has my assurance that we will expend the monies within the budget as appropriated. If there is any change, I will give him the due explanation.
Pooled Vehicles - Replacement in the amount of $300,000 agreed to
Supply and Services in the amount of $938,000 agreed to
On Property Management
Chair: Is there any general debate?
We will proceed with line by line.
On Pre-Engineering Capital Projects
Hon. Mr. Byblow: As Members may have noticed, this branch was reorganized last year by combining public works and property management under property management. There is going to be some strengthening of the branch by the establishment of a planning and program section. In the pre-engineering capital projects, this provides for pre-design activities that I indicated earlier we were going to be devoting some additional energies toward. It will provide planning, it will provide for project cost estimating and it will provide for feasibility studies, as well as engineering reports.
It is going to begin on a planning basis by doing projects a year in advance of actual construction. In conjunction with the client departments, this will meet all the project requirements for the construction. The work in the pre-engineering area is what is conducted prior to specific projects being approved and what generally turns out to be the identification of a project’s overall cost. In some instances, projects do not proceed, so you invariably end up with some planning and costs related, but the project never proceeds and, in that regard, you never see the specific projects.
This money will also deal with project management. The activity is intended to more tightly control that end of construction. The higher expenditure is to advance the pre-engineering and project planning.
Pre-Engineering Capital Projects in the amount of $550,000 agreed to
On Energy Conservation
Hon. Mr. Byblow: This is part of what is an ongoing effort. The overall goal is to reduce the dependence on imported fuels by reducing heating and ventilation costs. While Economic Development is now responsible for studies and research, the implementation budget has been increased by $142,000 over last year’s budget.
Mr. Lang: I am just wondering if he will give us a breakdown of where this money is going to be spent.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The activity under this vote will be for burner replacement at various locations, specifically in four buildings at Watson Lake, at Teslin School, at Takhini School and the Ross River School, the Watson Lake one being the administration building. There are overhead doors and exterior window installation at the Haines Junction Grader Station. There are a number of energy projects being undertaken territory-wide and a retrofit at Watson Lake of the administration building, which will include a ventilation system and insulation.
Mrs. Firth: Just before we clear this last item, the energy conservation, in last year’s budget we estimated $1,145,000 for that line item, and according to this budget, we spent $308,000. Can the Minister tell us why there is such a large discrepancy in the figures and what happened to the rest of the money?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: Again, the explanation being afforded me is largely the one I gave earlier about where the money went on the pool vehicles. Because they discontinued charging back projects to client departments last year, the department had to find some method to assign those costs related to planning and construction management and project management and related activity for various client departments, so the money had to be drawn from somewhere to, in effect, create a balanced budget. The short answer is that the discontinuance of the charge-back policy forced the department to scrounge for dollars.
Mrs. Firth: What is the Minister saying now? That the departments are going to pay their own costs for things like pool cars and energy conservation initiatives, and that Government Services is no longer going to cover those costs? I am not quite sure what the explanation of the charge-backs covers.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: What I am saying, in short, is that the department now has to pick up its personnel costs related to capital projects. Government Services now has to pick up any costs that are related to its own projects or client department projects.
Energy Conservation in the amount of $450,000 agreed to
On Construction Overhead
Hon. Mr. Byblow: This capital program is part of the reorganization effort. It is new. It is the provision of an overhead program that eliminates all the charge-backs that we were talking about earlier. In effect, it addresses all the personnel salaries related to capital projects. The level of the expenditure is related to the level of capital building projects that are undertaken by the government.
As I was explaining earlier, last year’s dollars were quite low because, at the time that the budget was put in place, there was the expectation that there would a charge-back on the capital projects to client departments. This has been dropped. The department now picks up its own costs and hence these budget numbers.
As I said, the level of expenditure in the program is related to the construction projects being undertaken. It depends, of course, on the extent to which the client departments put demands on Government Services.
Construction Overhead in the amount of $1,950,000 agreed to
Renovations Public Buildings
Hon. Mr. Byblow: This line item is essentially to maintain and upgrade buildings to the various required standards. This is the vote authority, as noted, that has an amount identified for Yukon College. If Members have specific questions or want a breakdown of the entire amount, I can provide that.
It is a summary of some of the work being undertaken in this vote. One is elevator maintenance. That is the ongoing costs related to servicing and maintaining elevators under our responsibility. There is a fire alarm servicing program that is undertaken in this vote. I do not have specific amounts.
I will provide a breakout to the Members of the $1.9 million. There are quite a number of projects involved. There are about 20 as follows: various senior citizen projects, upgrading, handicap access, reroofing, sprinkler systems, some work at Corrections, $750,000 for the Old Yukon College and some school renovations. I would give the Member the undertaking to bring in a refined breakdown of the dollars of this vote.
Mrs. Firth: I would like to specifically ask about the Old Yukon College. The Minister has just said there is $750,000 in this $1,775,000 for the Old Yukon College. What does “Includes funding of $700,000 for the Old Yukon College for 1988-89" mean? Does it mean that amount is included in the $1.7 million as well?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: The asterisk at the bottom of the page that refers to $700,000 being in that line item is for the 1988-89 year. That is where the $700,000 is identified. There is an additional $750,000 identified in this year’s vote. Combined, it would be $1,450,000.
Mrs. Firth: Why did they have to do this? Why did the department put this asterisk with this note? What is the relevance of doing it if the money had been in the capital budget all along? What is the relevance of bringing it to our attention and why was this note even included?
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I asked the same question and the only satisfactory answer I received was, in part, because it was something of an issue, in order to ensure that this is where the money was identified.
Mrs. Firth: I have some difficulty with that concept because it looks more to me like the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing. We as legislators were of the impression that there was no money in last year’s capital budget for the Old Yukon College, because we were told that by the previous Minister, so, obviously, the departmental officials would have been of that opinion also. However, the new Minister has come in with this explanation and said that we found money here, and here, and here, and he gave me a big, long list of all of the places where they found a few hundred thousand dollars, until they scraped and scrounged together $700,000 in the old capital budget. I then wonder why, in the new capital budget, they would highlight this and put in an asterisk, saying that oh, by the way, this includes $700,000 for the Old Yukon College in 1988-89, because it looks as if the explanation is that that $700,000 is included in the $1.775 million and that he is asking us to vote retroactively.
That is the impression that is given. I interpret it that way anyway; the impression is that part of this amount that you are asking for includes a retroactive vote for $700,000 for the Old Yukon College.
I raise the issue because I think that it has been poor, sloppy financial accounting and there should not really be any need for them to have this asterisk and explanation if we had been given the proper explanation in the first place, and that there was money in the previous capital budget for the renovations to Old Yukon College. I think that it should be noted that I would not like to see it happen within the Department of Government Services again. I am sure the auditors will have some question about the management practice that we have just seen.
Hon. Mr. Byblow: I appreciate the Member’s observation. It was an interesting comment that it was asterisked to provide the appropriate authority. I thought that we went through the explanation about how the vote authority took place, and that a year ago it was not in the capital budget as an identified line item; however, the authority for it came from that line item.
The Member and I have been around the mulberry bush on it. I appreciate the Member’s observations. I am certainly going to ask the question as the Member has pointed out: is this retroactive authorization. I do not believe so, not from the explanation that I had and provided to the Member, but I appreciate the observation.
Mr. Lang: I would like to make an observation. I find it disconcerting that we are getting general line items. They are so general, that, with this vote authority, you could go ahead and rebuild the Mayo Administration Building. I do not have a problem with having a general line item for general maintenance and small projects of $10,000 or $15,000. I do have a problem when we are sti