Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, December 11, 1989 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. At this time, we will proceed with Prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed with the Order Paper.

Introduction of Visitors.

Are there any Returns or Documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Webster: I have for tabling our government’s museums policy.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I have for tabling various documents pertaining to the draft education act.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?

Petitions.

Introduction of Bills.

Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?

Notices of Motion.

Are there any Statements by Ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Yukon Museum Policy

Hon. Mr. Webster: Over the years, museums have become increasingly important to the present and future social and economic development of the Yukon.

Knowing our past helps define who we are and forms part of the social foundation we are building for the future. A better understanding of our collective history paves the way for improved cross-cultural communication among all peoples of the Yukon. An enhanced awareness of the Yukon’s past also helps newcomers make a stronger commitment to the territory as their permanent home.

Tourists also have a strong interest in attractions that illustrate the unique history of the Yukon, a fact reflected in the 1987 Yukon Visitor Exit Survey. Improving the appeal of our museums to our visitors will result in positive economic spinoffs to local businesses.

The Yukon museums policy, which I am announcing today, is a commitment to the growth and development of community museums as the primary vehicle for displaying and interpreting the Yukon’s historic resources.

By placing the emphasis on strong, independent museums operated by local, non-profit volunteer boards, the museums policy is reinforcing and acting upon the advice provided by the Yukon Economic Strategy and commitments made in the Yukon Tourism Action Plan.

The policy also reflects the advice provided by the Yukoners who contributed to the policy’s development, following the 1987 release of the “Yukon Museums Policy and Systems Plan” for public review.

The “Lord Report”, as the study was known, subsequently formed the foundation for consultations held in 1988 with individual community museum boards, the Council for Yukon Indians and the Yukon Historical and Museums Association.

The policy, which is the result of those consultations, will see the heritage branch act as a catalyst, coordinator and facilitator for the Yukon’s system of community museums. To allow the branch to play that role, the policy establishes guidelines for the overall delivery of territorial museums assistance programming.

Assistance will be provided to museums through a mix of current and new approaches in several main areas: inventory and cataloguing; conservation and security; exhibit and museum operations and development assistance; improved research capabilities; conservation training for museum workers; and the development of historic research educational programs and kits.

The policy will also enable the branch to seek the repatriation of artifacts when suitable repositories are available.

The policy that I am releasing today also contemplates the eventual establishment of a Yukon Historic Resources Centre as a base for the technical resources, both human and technological, which the branch is developing.

Another function of the Historic Resources Centre will be to provide public display and educational facilities as a means of heightening public awareness of the Yukon’s historic resources. The Historic Resources Centre will also be designed to support the territory’s archaeological artifact conservation and historic sites responsibilities.

However, having said that, I should add that I do not wish to encourage false hopes. In the current climate of fiscal restraint imposed by federal budgetary policies, there is not an immediate prospect for the construction of the Historic Resources Centre.

The museums policy will lead to improved inventories and cataloguing of artifacts. It will help ensure the proper conservation and security of both displayed and stored artifact collections. It will enable museums to develop their infrastructure, staff and programs, so that Yukoners and visitors alike will have access to museums that foster a better understanding and appreciation of the territory’s collective history.

The formal recognition of the Yukon’s community museums in this policy, and the improved conservation capabilities that it will produce, may also enhance community museum access to federal museums funding assistance programs for further growth and improvements.

In conclusion, we believe this decentralized approach to the presentation of the Yukon’s historic resources will foster education, tourism, employment and local business opportunities, which will enhance the quality of life in communities throughout the territory.

Mr. Phillips: I am pleased to see that finally, after four years, we have a new museums policy, but I would like to make a few comments about the statement the Minister has given here today. First of all, I agree with the statement that says in the policy, “Tourists also have a strong interest in attractions that illustrate the unique history of the Yukon, a fact reflective of the 1987 Yukon Visitors Exit Survey.”

I would hope the Member for Klondike, who has become the Christmas-Grinch-Who-Stole-Our-Gold-Panner-And-Klondike-Theme, would use this very argument to support the Yukon public who do not want the new Yukon licence plate. The Minister has become totally inconsistent with his announcement here today, reflecting a higher priority on community museum development and, while at the same time, the figures he proposes in the current budget before us show a downturn in this activity.

For example, he states that the Yukon’s museum policy will lead to improved inventories and cataloguing of artifacts. That is a great statement but I would like to ask the Minister why he has, in his 1990-91 budget before us, proposed a 50 percent reduction in funding in this area.

He stated that it would help ensure the proper conservation and security of both displayed and stored artifacts collections, but again, in the 1990-91 budget we see a whopping 59 percent decrease in funding. It is odd, to say the least.

He stated, as well, that this policy will enable museums to develop their infrastructure, staff and programs and then with the other hand he cuts the budget by 42 percent in this area. How is that supposed to help small community museums develop their infrastructure? The Minister said that this policy will help museums with exhibit assistance and again he demonstrates this in an odd way by cutting the 1990-91 budget in this area by another 33 percent. I know we are in a time of restraint but one would have to look long and hard through this budget to see if any other department is cut as badly as this one.

In another area of concern at the same time, when we are announcing that we have to tighten our belts, fiscally, the Minister announces a totally new facility and programming: the establishing of the Yukon Historic Resources Centre. This, I am sure, will cost a great deal of capital and O&M costs in the future, and, at a time of limited dollars, maybe we should be looking at supporting the many small community museums we already have. It seems to me that the Minister cannot have it both ways. On one hand, he is bragging about his government’s concern for a higher priority for community museums, and then, on the other hand, he drastically reduces the budget and the funding in this area.

I would like to conclude by saying that this Minister is totally inconsistent between the figures that he has brought forward in the budget and the ministerial statement he has given here today. He just cannot have it both ways. You cannot, on one hand, announce a priority to take care of, or look after, the community development of museums, and on the other hand announce a 30 to 60 percent decrease in the budget in that same area.

Hon. Mr. Webster: I want to thank the Member opposite for bringing forth his concerns with respect to the budget for the heritage branch, and specifically for museum assistance. I look forward to the opportunity to debate them more fully when we come to debate the budget.

Speaker: This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Hazardous waste diposal

Mr. Phelps: I have some follow-up questions on an issue I raised in the House a couple of weeks ago on the PCB storage shed built in the middle of the City of Whitehorse, contrary to this governments policy about not storing PCBs in highly populated areas.

This government asked for input from the City of Whitehorse about the storage shed, in particular, and a letter was sent to the Yukon government by the city engineer on August 30, 1989, outlining numerous concerns about the proposed shed, including its size, fire protection for it, the entrance gate to it, and so on.

Why did the government proceed with building this storage shed without replying to the letter of August 30 from the city engineer?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I appreciate the Member’s question because it affords the opportunity to clarify some facts surrounding the matter and allows me to provide additional information to the Member.

The letter was not responded to, in part because it was not solicited and in part because the facility was already under construction.

By way of some clarification, I must provide this to the Member. The government began its program for removal of ballasts in approximately March of this year and began storage under conditions of fairly close protection in the Marwell area. In July of last year Environmental Protection Services directed Government Services to contain them better than they were then contained, largely because at that time an interim order came through from Environmental Protection Services for a new standard of storage for PCBs. Government Services had 30 days to comply and sought the appropriate approvals from the city, received them, and proceeded with the necessary construction. The letter the Member mentions was received after that decision was made.

Mr. Phelps: That is not much of an answer. In this specific case the size of the shed was less than 100 square feet and, therefore, a building permit was not required. I am wondering why the government relied on this technicality in order to proceed without satisfying the concerns of the city.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: There were no concerns raised by the city. The matter was treated at an administrative level. The appropriate authority from the city was sought. The Member is correct, a building permit was not required. The administration of Government Services sought advice and spoke to the fire department, and I understand the building branch of the city procured the necessary authority to proceed, and proceeded. It was treated on that basis as a temporary storage for these ballasts that EPS had directed us to contain more adequately than we were.

Mr. Phelps:  Surely, the Minister will agree that the answer does not make sense. A building permit was not required, therefore, what kind of authority was obtained? Was there something in writing?

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  I will have to take notice of that specific question about whether anything was received in writing. I do not know precisely, but I am advised that assurances were received from the city that the department could proceed with the construction and it took the initiative to  make further contact with city officials and other affected agencies to ensure that the facility was properly and adequately constructed.

As I indicated to the Member in previous questioning, the building was constructed totally under the regulations prescribed by Environmental Protection Services.

Question re: Hazardous waste disposal

Mr. Phelps:  These answers are somewhat confused, because we understand - and the city councillors understood - that such authority had not been obtained from the city.

The letter dated August 30, from the city engineer to the Minister’s department, outlined a large number of concerns. There are seven concerns in all, ranging from the size of the entrance gate, the construction of the building itself, fire protection, fire doors, the size, the issue of fill containment, the ventilation, to the lack of sensors and alarms to detect poisonous gas and lighting. How can the Minister be assured, and assure us, that the City of Whitehorse gave its blessing to proceed with this building in the face of this letter dated August 30?

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  With respect, the letter received by the city speaks to a facility of a more permanent nature and casts a judgmental eye on the type of facility we ought to be constructing. We were containing PCB ballasts with minute quantities - virtually drops per ballast - which were being contained under full authority and prescribed regulations by environmental protection standards. Essentially, the letter that came from the city was unsolicited and after the fact.

For the Member’s information, I can tell him that on August 17, Mr. Collier from Government Services consulted with Jeff Hamm, the head of planning for the city, regarding the city’s zoning regulations for construction of the storage facility. He was advised that the shed complied with zoning requirements.

Subsequently, on August 28, Mr. Vautour from the department consulted with Ken Hyatt, the chief building inspector with the city’s building and inspections branch. He was told that no building permit was necessary, as the Member pointed out, due to the size of the shed.

Subsequent to that, the department advised the city fire department regarding the location and the quantity of the material being stored, as is required by EPS.

Those authorities were sought and approvals were generated. I have already said I would undertake to determine whether there is anything in writing.

Mr. Phelps: At the very least, we have a strange sequence of events before us. I am advised by the Minister, if I heard him correctly, on August 28 there was a conversation with regard to the need for a building permit. When was the shed completed?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I stand to be corrected, but the building would have been completed in September, because EPS gave us a 30-day period in which to properly contain these ballasts, which we undertook.

Mr. Phelps: I would like to put the Minister on notice that I would like some exact times. I would remind him he told us the letter of August 30 would have been too late because the storage shed was already completed. Would he advise whether or not the storage shed was completed prior to receiving the letter of August 30?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I accept notice, and I can provide the Member with specific dates relating to communications relating to this facility.

Question re: Hazardous waste disposal

Mr. Phelps: This makes me concerned about other storage sites for hazardous wastes within the City of Whitehorse. We know hazardous wastes are stored at the Whitehorse dam in some sort of a trailer. Can the Minister tell me whether a building permit was obtained for the storage facility at the Yukon Energy site?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I would have to assume the facility was constructed some time ago and would appear to have received the appropriate authorities for construction. The Member raises his concern about other facilities in the city, and I share that concern. That is part of the urgency I have placed on the matter by creating an advisory body and placing some priority on having a permanent facility selected outside the city limits by next summer. I have provided to that committee the necessary level of expertise and an opportunity to provide an intelligent, rational and calculated set of options for me to choose from. There are at least nine facilities in Whitehorse that contain PCBs. I am quite prepared to table the list for the Member. It is a matter of some concern, and I respect my responsibility to ensure that these hazardous wastes are removed from the city boundaries.

Speaker: Order please. Will the Member please conclude his answer.

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  I have undertaken that and will do it.

Mr. Phelps: Last spring, we debated a motion at some length about this very issue in the Legislature. At the time, the Minister stood in his place across there and advised Yukoners and we in the Legislature that a lot of consultation was going on between the various levels of government, progress was being made, problems were being identified, and so on. What we have here is a ...

Speaker: Order please. Would the Member please get to the supplementary question.

Mr. Phelps: We have a very apparent breakdown between the levels of government. Can the Minister advise us about the storage shed that is being utilized by the federal government in the Takhini area? Is his department aware of that? Did the City of Whitehorse authorize the building of such a storage shed up there for hazardous waste?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I would be quite pleased to provide to the Member the list of the storage sites in the city. In fact, the City of Whitehorse itself has one on Quartz Road. The matter is of some concern to me and I repeat that that is why I have treated with priority the locating of a permanent facility outside of municipal and city boundaries, and that is why I have directed that this happen by next summer, so that we can begin the creation of permanent facility, rather than these temporary ones that we have around the city.

Question re: Licence plates

Mr. Phillips: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services, as well. This one regards the proposed new licence plate. My question relates to the method the government used to come up with the new proposed design. We already know the government did not ask the Yukon people what they felt about changing to a new design, or we simply would not have the new design in front of us. Did the Minister use an internal review committee to establish this new design?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I should tell the Member, and all Members, that I was certainly quite surprised, and in fact amazed, at the reaction to the new licence plate from many of the Yukon public. With respect to the review process the Member seeks out, I want to tell the Member that the licence plate has been in evolution for a number of months.

It was in full consultation with the tourism branch and it was largely the result of my initiative, and I take full responsibility. The plate was originally produced in a number of variations, and those variations were reduced to a central theme that was in conjunction with the tourism strategy that was developed by this government a couple of years ago, which in fact called for a broader theme to promote the Yukon.

I am sure Member may recollect Mr. Porter announcing “The Magic and The Mystery” theme in 1987. That was the result of considerable market testing and considerable statistical analysis, and it was determined that a broader theme than simply “The Klondike” should be utilized. That is what I attempted to incorporate, as well as speaking to the broad spectrum that Yukon represents to us all ...

Speaker: Order please. Will the Member please conclude his answer.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: In conclusion, I can advise the Member that considerable internal review took place between my department and that of Tourism, which eventually resulted in the design tabled a couple of weeks ago.

Mr. Phillips: It has come to my attention that the design that the review committee recommended to the Minister and to Cabinet is not the same design that we see in front of us today. Can the Minister confirm that this is not the final design, nor the final recommendation that this review committee made to the Minister?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am not sure, precisely, to which review process the Member refers. The design that came forward to Cabinet was the result of considerable review that I initiated, one theme of which was the design that we see before us, at an earlier evolutionary stage, as well as numerous others.

Mr. Phillips: Will the Minister confirm that the final design of the review committee that was presented to the Minister retained the Yukon gold panner or “The Klondike” theme words, and possibly both? Why did Cabinet decide to remove both of these and replace them with the fireweed and the words “The Magic and the Mystery”?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member suggests that I was advised to retain the gold panner. That is not so. I took the initiative to seek out a number of options and have them refined. That is what took place. That is what I took to my colleagues and that is what Members see before them.

Question re: Licence plates

Mr. Phillips: I would like to pursue a question again about the proposed new licence plates.

Several new facts have come to light since the government announced it intended to remove the gold panner and the Klondike off the Yukon licence plates. First, two licence plate designs, the raven and sternwheeler, were given to the government and they were told there was no reason at the time to change the design, and when the government did decide to change it they would consult with the public. They did not consult.

Many Yukoners have objected to the change and have written to the editor. A phone-in show was held on CBC radio last Thursday and over 30 calls objected to the change and only nine supported it. A petition is now in circulation with over 1,000 signatures on it. Less than a week ago this petition started, and now has well over 1,000 signatures on it. The Klondike Visitors Association and the CYI are upset and the Tourism Industry Association wants more time to consider the changes.

In light of the overwhelming opposition to this licence plate change, will the Minister responsible take this opportunity to tell Yukoners that he has delayed the decision to proceed with the new licence plate until more consultation with the Yukon public can take place?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: As the Member is aware, or ought to be aware, trying to achieve consensus on an item like a licence plate design is near impossible. My experience in previous political life, as well as in municipal politics, and the classroom, led me to recognize that consensus would not be achievable.

However, I do respect the question. As the Member is aware, I returned to the Yukon last Friday and was amazed at the reaction to the plate that was introduced.

I have had a chance to review debate that took place in the House last week, some of the media reports, and seek advice and opinion from people at large. Over the weekend I directed Community and Transportation Services to direct that an information sheet with a questionnaire to be included with the pre-arranged mailing about staggered licencing that is going out this week. Essentially that is going to be done. I will wait for the results of that questionnaire and have asked that responses be received by January 15, at which time I will review the responses, petitions, letters and opinions from Yukon people.

Mr. Phillips: I am interested by the comments of the Minister about not being able to get a consensus on the licence plate. I can assure the Minister that the people of the Yukon are not happy with a Cabinet decision to change the licence plate.

In light of the new turn of events, and his delay in doing anything about the new licence plate for awhile, will he allow the petition that is circulating to be placed at the front desk with the new licence plate so people can express their views, both pro and con? They can answer the Minister’s questionnaire, but they can also sign the petition if they object to the new licence plate being produced by this government.

Hon. Mr. Penikett: With respect, I believe the Member is playing games and taking advantage of the fact the Minister of Government Services was not here last week. I have already answered that question on behalf of the government last week.

Mr. Phillips: I am not playing games at all. That is the Government Leader’s tactic of evading the question. I am asking if the government will allow the petition to be placed on the front desk, like many other pieces of information are, so people can have the opportunity to sign the petition.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I already indicated the initiative I have taken over the weekend to seek further input from Yukon people through a mail-out  that will explain the staggered licensing system. I will be seeking the responses from registrants, as well as from Yukon people who do not have vehicles, by placing those forms at territorial agents’ offices, at municipal offices and with the motor vehicles branch. The Member can be assured that I am inviting Yukon people to provide input and comment with respect to the proposed new licence plate.

Question re: Licence plates

Mr. Phillips: It seems the lights have gone on in the Minister’s office this weekend, and the Minister has finally seen the light of day, so to speak, on this licence plate issue. Will the Minister delay ordering any new licence plates until some time in early spring, so Yukoners will have an opportunity to respond to the Minister’s questionnaire or to respond in any other way they may want in order to express their views on the new licence plate proposed by this government?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I can assure the Member opposite that I have had a fairly good grounding in the real world of consulting with people, which he probably has not.

I have already indicated to the Member the time frame in which I am seeking some further public input regarding the licences, which has been generated by the response I came back to last week. The current issue of plates will physically be running out by number and by plate approximately next July or August. We require approximately three months in which to manufacture a new series. Backing up from that time, the tender for the manufacture of plates will have to be placed by the first part of February.

Mr. Phillips: With all due respect, the government brought this on itself. It should have considered that before it announced it was going to do this.

We are going to be adjourned from this House until some time in mid to late January. There is very little opportunity to debate this issue again after this week. As well, it is the Christmas season, and many Yukoners are preoccupied over the Christmas holiday season with family and friends. Will the Minister give consideration to withholding any decision on making a new Yukon licence plate until at least some time in March, so Yukoners have an opportunity to review the proposed licence plate and express their views on whether they like it or dislike it?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: If the Member had been listening to my last answer, he would recognize his question is an impossible one to accede to. March would be too late to make a decision and provide plates in time for when they run out in July. I have already indicated to the Member that, until January 15, I will be awaiting further response and input from Yukon people. At that time, or shortly after, I will be taking a decision respecting the plates. The time frame only permits us that latitude at this point.

Question re: Licence plates

Mrs. Firth: I would like to follow up with some questions about the Minister of Community and Transportation Services’ comment today about the licence plate information sheet and questionnaire. I know that garages have been mailed colour copies of the licence plate and have been asked to put them up in their places of business. Municipalities have been mailed coloured licence plates. Indian bands have, I believe, been mailed colour licence plates, from the information we have been given. Now something is going to be mailed to all licence holders and included in it is going to be a questionnaire. Is that information accurate? Is the government mailing out these coloured copies of the licence plates? Could the Minister tell us how many have been printed up to be mailed out, or how many are anticipated to be printed to be mailed out?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Of course I can provide the Member with that information. The mailing that is being done this week was previously arranged mailing to explain the staggered licensing method, with respect to when people would apply for their renewals, how the fees would be structured, and what their cycle of renewal would be. I have taken the opportunity to ask the department to include, along with that standard mailing, a statement regarding the public discussion that has been generated about the licence plate and to seek further input. To be quite frank with the Member, the final draft of that questionnaire has not been concluded. The Member has to appreciate that I undertook this new initiative last Friday and worked through the weekend.

The Member also raised the issue of the colour plate inclusion; yes, I have directed that a colour plate inclusion be placed in the envelope, along with the staggered licence information and the questionnaire.

Mrs. Firth: So what the Minister is really saying is that instead of reconsidering the decision that they made, they have decided to launch a huge damage-control campaign, using the taxpayers’ money to convince taxpayers that they really like the licence plate. That is what this government is doing. The Government Leader says, “We are giving them a chance to see what it looks like - that was because they were not happy with the black and white in the newspaper.” This government...

Speaker: Order please. Would the Member please get to the supplementary question.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to ask the Minister of Community and Transportation Services what this damage-control campaign, using taxpayers’ money, is going to cost the taxpayer. I want a figure on it.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member raises some erroneous preamble information. The issue is not damage control. The issue is to provide members of the public with a picture of the plate, in colour, for a fair representation of what the proposed new plate is going to look like. The questionnaire simply seeks their input on that licence plate, and it is an appropriate way to go in order to conclude a decision.

Mrs. Firth: It is interesting that the public was not consulted beforehand. All of a sudden, now, they want the public’s opinion about the contents of the licence plate: the gold panner and the words “The Klondike”. The Minister did not answer my question. I would like to know how much it is going to cost for the government to launch this damage-control campaign, because that is what it is.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have already indicated, and repeat for the Member, that when I returned to the Yukon on Friday I was quite amazed at the response that appeared to be coming from the Yukon public. In recognition of that I felt that a fair representation of the decision ought to be made to Yukon people. Therefore, I have included a short information sheet as well as a questionnaire, and saw to it that the package include a photographic reproduction of the plate. It is not an unreasonable gesture for people to recognize the decision.

Question re: Licence plates

Mr. Phelps: It seems the government has spent a lot of money on this plate already without consulting Yukoners, and all of a sudden now it is going to spend more to finally talk to them about the new plate.

The question was asked last week of the Minister of Tourism about the cost for designing this five-colour plate. How much was spent on the design and creation of this piece of paper with the plate on it?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: This design was produced over the past two, three or four months at a total cost of $3900. It was work produced by a local firm. That is the price to date for the design.

Mr. Phelps: How much are the plates going to cost in a five-colour reproduction? How does that cost compare with the cost of the present plate with the gold panner?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have indicated that we propose to be going to public tender for the manufacture of the new plate. We took the initiative to call a number of firms respecting the cost of the new plate. We received a quote of $2.32 per plate. We are currently paying $2.09 for the existing plate. There is a 23-cent difference per plate for the five-colour reproduction.

Question re: Licence plates

Mr. Phillips: The Minister stated that they are sending out an information package to all Yukon residents that has a full-colour picture of the plate enclosed. Does the government understand that the people of the Yukon are not as much concerned with the colour of the plate as with the fact that the government is removing the gold panner and the words “The Klondike” from the plate? That is the issue.

The issue is not whether the plate is brown, pink, blue, green or any other colour in the world. The issue is the removal of the gold panner and the words, “The Klondike”. Does the government understand that is the issue, not the colour of the plate?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am clearly aware of what the issues surrounding the plate are. I am addressing those issues by seeking input from people. I should point out to Members that it is not a package being sent, it is a single sheet of paprer requesting information pertaining to people’s thoughts regarding the new design, the removal of the Klondike wording, the removal of the gold panner and commentary they may provide to me, in order that I may more fully and adequately address this issue, given what took place over the past 10 days.

I did not anticipate this reaction. I have explained to Members that I intended to take into account the existing broadening tourism theme that has been promoted for Yukon. I have attempted to take into consideration the full cultural and historical depth of the Yukon and have come forward with this plate. I think it is a very good representation of Yukon. As I learned when I returned ...

Speaker: Order please. Would the Member please conclude his answer.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: ... there was an appearance of objection to the new plate and I am seeking further input on the matter and doing it in a fashion that is fair.

Speaker: Order please. Would the Member conclude his answer.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am providing the Yukon public an opportunity to make a fair judgment about the proposal I put forward.

Mr. Phillips: It is beyond my, and it must be beyond most Yukoners’, comprehension why the government will not just admit it made a mistake and go back to the old gold panner. That is all Yukoners are asking. Why will the Minister not rise in the House today and admit that, with the onslaught of opposition he has had to this new plate, he made a mistake and will not be removing the gold panner or “The Klondike” off the new plate?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I beg to disagree with the Member. I, too, spent some time on the street and on the phone over the weekend. At the same time that people voiced some concern over the removal of the gold panner, I have also been advised not to change the proposed new plate, that it is an ideal representation of the Yukon and does reflect what Yukon stands for. I beg to differ with the Member that a mistake was made. I sought further input and opinion from the public at large, and I will review that in the context of any additional input.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now lapsed. We will now proceed with the Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House now resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We will have a brief recess.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee to order.

We will begin with Bill No. 13.

Bill No. 13 - Second Appropriation Act, 1989-90 - continued

Chair: We will begin with Community and Transportation Services on page 19. Is there any general debate?

Department of Community and Transportation Services

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Perhaps the House would permit my Deputy Minister, Mr. Graham, to join me on the floor?

The supplementary estimate before us has a total net amount of $3,143,000. As Members can see the operation and maintenance portion is $913,000 and there is a capital portion of $2,135,000.

This variance that totals $3,143,000 is almost entirely due to capital funds that were carried forward from the previous year in the amount of $2,518,000. The additional amount is capital funds net of O&M savings that were advanced from last year into this year, which permitted the acceleration of certain projects. There was a net amount of $280,000 on that. When these two items are taken into account, along with an adjustment that applies to the previous year, the department has essentially operated to period 5 with a zero net variance.

In short the expenditures have been held to those anticipated in the original budget. I think that reflects some sound fiscal management and the ability of the department to meet its obligations within a financial framework.

The additional amounts not cited represent various transfers and reallocations within the department and, when we get into line-by-line, I would be more than pleased to explain precisely how the $913,000 is generated, as well as the $2,135,000, as indicated in the budget book.

I am quite open to questions from Members in general debate and quite prepared to discuss specific line-by-line items.

Mr. Brewster: I would like to start out on casual hiring. Last year it was very unfair, because people who worked for several years were not given an opportunity. The more I am around the Yukon, the more I find in quite a few places. The Minister assured us he was going to correct this and I would like to have it on record that it will not happen again.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I recall the occasion the Member raises with respect to casual hire. The policy has been reviewed. In the specific instance the Member raised, I understand through subsequent correspondence, that while the Member may not have agreed with all the approach taken, the department certainly attempted to rectify an oversight in recognizing local people on a casual hire basis.

It is my understanding that in our policy of encouragement for local hire we seek applications throughout the year. Those applications are forwarded, essentially, to the department, and as postings come up people can apply for them or be hired on the casual basis. I do not know if the Member has any specific areas. I would be quite pleased to discuss them or to take representation.

Mr. Brewster: The main problem I have with this is that in the cases where people have been on for two or three years, they were told that all they had to do was to write to the foreman and notify him that they were there for the job and they would get it without applying. Then, they found out that they never even got a chance at all, that other applicants had been hired over them, and that they had no seniority at all. I just think the situation is unfair.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: To my knowledge, the Member is correct in his description of the approach taken for bringing people back to work, either on a casual or an auxiliary basis. They simply have to notify their foreman and their names are added to the available pool of people. I think there was, in the case that the Member brought to my attention last summer, some confusion about the status of those employees, and I believe it was corrected, albeit after the fact, to the best of our ability, for the oversight and the confusion that took place in the very legitimate case that the Member brought to my attention. My understanding, however, is that the policy still prevails, that people who are on a casual or an auxiliary status are first up for recall upon notifying their foreman that they are still available and that, in fact, ought to be taking place.

The Member can appreciate that in some camps the work does not necessarily remain the same from year to year. There will be different times when people are brought on. There will be different durations of work for the casuals and the auxiliaries, and certainly the qualifications of the individual would have to be taken into account, depending on whether he is an equipment operator or a labourer, or some other skill.

I guess, in short, I would like to give reassurance to the Member that I have directed the department to ensure that the local-hire policy is respected, that Public Service Commission rules are respected at the same time, and certainly we do grant the recognition of local areas.

Mr. Brewster: I thank the Minister for that. There is only one other suggestion that I would make and I will not carry on long with that. In any private contract, foremen get an awful lot to say on who they hire and who they do not. It is quite apparent that all the hiring is done in Whitehorse and I do not think the foremen really get a say; therefore, they are getting people that they do not particularly want. This has happened and I can give you cases.

Is it not true that the casuals were laid off very, very early this year from most of the road camps?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The last question first. I am advised that has been no difference to the lay off of casuals this year than any other year. It would depend on the nature of the work, the nature of the season, and that there was no extraordinary, deliberate action to lay off earlier. If the Member has any example of that to the contrary, I would like to hear it.

Back to the question of hiring and local authority for the foreman to do so, my understanding is that the hiring is done jointly. Granted, the names of available people and applications are centralized, but no hiring is done without consulting the foreman. That is my understanding of things and I think the Member can appreciate that he is correct that if we centralized hiring totally, without consulting foremen, there could be instances where the work relationship might not be the healthiest. Certainly, one has to be very flexible and sensitive in those areas, but my understanding on the decision making for the hiring is that it is done in consultation with the foreman. If the Member has anything to the contrary, I want to know. In the case of laying off, there is no deliberate difference to it this year than in any other year.

Mr. Brewster: I will have to take the Minister’s word for it. However, many people who were on casual told me they were laid off two weeks to a month earlier than usual. On the question of the foremen, there is a difference between consulting and taking the advice of foremen. You can consult all you want, but if you do not take their advice, what is the point of them being on these boards to start with?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I would be curious to hear a bit more from the Member. If there are deficiencies in our hiring policy, I would like to be able to address that and reconstruct policy where possible. If the Member is advising me quite clearly that foremen are not adequately consulted on the selection of personnel for camps, then I want to know that. He need not cite names on the floor of the House, but please advise me. I am being advised that foremen are consulted; the Member is saying differently. I must know.

Mr. Brewster: I did not say differently. I said you were consulting, but you are not listening to them. There is a big difference. Has this never been brought up at a foremen’s conference, that they are dissatisfied with the way some of these hiring practices go on?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The matter may well have been brought up in private discussions internally. I am advised that, as an agenda item, it was not universally discussed at the foremen’s meetings.

With respect to their authority, I am advised that foremen have full participation in the panels that select the new entrants to the labour force. In other words, foremen participate with the recruitment work that is done in selecting new applicants to join the labour crews, as they may be at the camps. Once a person has established a status with a camp, meaning they have worked for a camp, then the other method kicks in. There is no re-review; it is simply a notification of availability, and their seniority and trade skills would apply.

Mr. Brewster: The only thing I can say about that is, number one, maybe it was just an all-around screwup in the Haines Junction area. The two people who had two years never got an application until I came in here and started to clamour. Incidentally, the one boy got 64 points out of 66. He was probably one of the highest. There is no question that the foremen and the crews and everyone in that area wanted these people hired, and they were not hired. It took six weeks of fighting to get them on any kind of a job. Maybe it does not happen everywhere else, but I am being told it does.

The Minister is saying one thing, and I am prepared to believe him, but it is not being done in practice out there.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I appreciate the Member’s comments and observation. I will undertake to fully discuss the hiring practices with my department. Perhaps I can share some additional information over the course of the next budget debate.

Mr. Lang: I wanted to move back to the question my colleague asked with respect to the road crews and early layoffs. It came to my attention from a number of people in my riding who felt they had been laid off early. The word was that they had been laid off because of the financial situation within the government.

Is the Minister telling this House there was no deliberate directives from either himself, the deputy minister or the acting deputy minister to cut back on road crews early in order to save money?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I will take the question under advisement to the extent that I will pursue it further. There was no directive from myself, and I am advised, neither from my deputy with respect to laying people off earlier. I can speculate that the natural management tendencies within the department may create such a perception. If people are faced with their budget nearing depletion, the roadwork being adequately done with no need for additional work this year, there may well have been an administrative management decision to terminate at a certain point. I have undertaken to explore this further.

I am advised that certainly my deputy did not initiate any instruction to terminate or lay off earlier. I certainly did not. The Member may appreciate that good management may generate some perception of that sort.

Mr. Brewster: Good management or not good management, roads are very serious and very important. If this is where we are trying to cut back, I wonder about this. I have a number of complaints about the icy conditions of the Carcross Road. It was closed down completely one time. Was it because of cutbacks that sanders or crews were not out there to keep that road open?

I will agree and concede that it was an icy year, but that does not stop commerce, or stop people from using roads. Somebody should be out on those roads. I drove from Edmonton to Grande Prairie, and there was snow and ice all over the road. There were trucks every 10 to 15 miles trying to get it off. Here, the road practically closes down because of this. Are there not enough sanding trucks or crews?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member raises the icing conditions of approximately one month ago. At that time the Leader of the Official Opposition raised the matter with me to an extensive degree that his understanding was we were cutting back forces and budgets, and that is why the roads were not adequately being addressed. I want to put to rest that there have been any directives to cut back. Our budget reflects the standard increase from last year, and we are working within that budget, maintaining roads to the best of our ability. This particular year, we did have a couple of occasions where weather conditions occurred rapidly through the night and created morning conditions that were not quickly dealt with. I provided a couple of explanations to the Leader of the Official Opposition. There was no deliberate attempt to cut back either by forces or budget on the road maintenance. I respect the importance and necessity of maintaining good roads in the territory.

The Member is correct that we do have conditions that sometimes catch us short. In one particular instance approximately a month ago, the second crews were not in place yet. The early morning crew that gets on the road at six o’clock was not in place. We were caught the weekend before it was put in place. It just happened to be a situation where we were caught by the weather.

On another occasion we actually lost a sanding truck in the ditch on the Carcross Road. I believe it was reported in the local media. That occasion caused some delay in adequate road treatment. It was short lived, but it was because of the peculiar situation where a sanding truck lost control, hit the ditch, and reduced our ability to deal with that portion of the road.

In short, there is no initiative to reduce forces, cut back budgets; we are onstream with our battle plan for maintaining roads. The overtime is authorized where necessary. We have to keep those roads in the best condition possible and we attempt to do that.

Mr. Brewster: I just have a couple more questions on the Skagway Road. There were an awful lot of complaints from people who tried to get through the construction area and I imagine the Minister has heard these complaints too, where literally these buggies were running straight at you, and a few other things, and people were even stopping coming from Skagway because of this. The other question I would like to ask is whether or not there will be a sander at Fraser this year or are we going to have to go through a continual fight, like we did all of last year?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member, I believe, first raised the issue of poor conditions through the construction zone on the Skagway Road. He is correct; I received at least several complaints in my office regarding it, and on each occasion I addressed them. Departmentally, we raised our concerns with the contractor - I believe it was Lobe - that was doing that contract. On each occasion they provided some explanation and a commitment to improve. I was somewhat disappointed on that matter and I believe I undertook to in fact correspond with the contractor about the frequency of the complaints. I took what action I could and it is something I have addressed with my department for future contracts: that it is unacceptable that we should be receiving complaints of inadequate supervision, inadequate piloting and inadequate road surface conditions, through construction zones.

I believe we can call for contractors, through our tenders, to be more vigilant on this, and we have the power to do so; that is in fact what we are planning to tighten up next year. It was not only on the Skagway Road, it was also on the Klondike Highway, as well as on Campbell Highway construction zones. They were similar complaints, not as severe as on the Skagway Road but it gave me reason for concern and reason to ask my department to address it through the tendering process, and provide closer supervision and more vigilance, so that these kind of complaints are kept to a minimum.

I have some sympathy for contractors on the job, where conditions may deteriorate somewhat, periodically, in a construction zone, but the complaints were too numerous and too frequent on the several construction jobs that I am familiar with, and I have asked for this to be addressed, departmentally, through the tendering process.

Mr. Phillips: I would suggest to the Minister that he does not have to issue those instructions through the tendering process. As far as I know, the requirements are already there in the tendering process. When the contractor does not follow by the rules set out in the tender, he is violating the contract. It is already written down and all we really need to do is have the governmental inspectors working on the job ensure that that part of the contract is followed to a ‘t’. I can tell the Member - I spoke to the Member privately on this - that I had a personal experience on that road where we almost got run over by a buggy. In fact, it lead to me getting out of our vehicle and standing by the middle of the road to stop the equipment just so we could pass through the area, because obviously no one was going to stop for us.

The Minister knows the story well. I would like to know if the Minister responded to that issue that I brought to his attention at that time; it was in late October, I believe; I have the date in my office.

Could the Minister tell us if he responded to that and, if he did respond, I would like to see the letter that he sent to Lobe Contracting and the government inspector, whose job it was to ensure that there was safety through that construction zone. I would like to know what steps the Minister took on that particular issue.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: As with most complaints of the sort the Member brought to my attention last fall, the immediate reaction is to advise our highways branch to deal with the project supervisor and attempt immediate rectification at that level. The Member is quite correct that we have our own inspection capability out on the job, and I also thought that it was our vigilance that was not adequate. It appears that our vigilance, without putting additional bodies on the job, has limitations. There is an opportunity for slackness to develop on the job due to nobody’s particular fault, other than the contractor not being studious enough to watch what is happening in the construction process.

Our inspectors are fairly occupied on the job. They can be away at kilometre eight of a job while things are in a mess four kilometres away. I have asked that that aspect be addressed. Yes, the inspectors are there; yes, they are supposed to be supervising the project; yes, we have the power of holdbacks, but they are not tight enough to actually apply them. I have asked that we address this so the frequency of the complaints we had this year will be tightened up, perhaps through the contracting process. If the response comes back that we do not have to tighten up any more than we already have but, rather, we have to supervise it better, then I will take that advice, too.

Mr. Phillips: I can assure the Minister that, in this particular case, the latter was the issue. They had to be supervised better in the particular case that I talked about where I had to get out of the vehicle. The government inspector was less than 500 metres away, sitting on a hill and watching the whole thing take place. I had to get out of my vehicle and guide our vehicle through the construction zone. When I stopped at the top of the hill and spoke to the government inspector, he told me he just witnessed the whole thing and apologized. That does not help if your truck or vehicle is run over by one of the buggies loaded with rocks and boulders and nobody will move over for you.

I should add that I went down to Skagway that way. I had to go to several businesses and, out of curiosity, I asked them about the road. Three people in three different businesses asked me if there was construction on the road and told me that, as long as it was continuing on that road, they were not going to go over it to Whitehorse because it was unsafe. If the Minister wants to know which businesses they were, I can tell him privately. These people were seriously concerned about their safety on that road. It should not have to resort to those kinds of complaints and that kind of thing happening, and we should not have to wait until someone gets run over by one of these vehicles before we tighten it up.

I am positive that, within the present contract regulations, it states these contractors have to make the road passable and safe to vehicles. The job to enforce that is the job of the government inspector. We do not need to put in all kinds of tighter controls in the contract system. They are there already.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I appreciate the Member’s observations. As I indicated to him, I asked that this be addressed for the next construction year. Whether that requires a refined articulation of the contract document that calls for it to be a safe and passable road, or whether it calls for stronger inspection on the part of our people, I cannot answer at this point.

In this particular past year, I have had more complaints than I can recall about highways. It has been a matter of some concern to me, and I have asked for that to be addressed. I am hoping to be able to tell the Members the approach we will be taking by next spring, when we start letting contracts go again.

The other thing I had a number of complaints about was the flagging. From time to time, I got complaints that flag people were not on the job, which can be extremely hazardous. I am concerned about those areas in what appears to be some deterioration in the management of the construction projects. Until I can fully determine where the fault lies and how we can tighten it up, I can only tell the Member I have asked for this to be addressed immediately.

Mr. Phillips: I look forward to next spring when the construction starts on the Skagway Road. To ensure my safety, I should invite the Minister to come with me during the height of construction season and see whether or not the new regulations are actually working.

Mr. Brewster: I am a little disappointed he accepted the offer from the Member for Riverdale North when he did not accept my offer to go to Mendenhall. I do not know if he is better looking than me.

Is there going to be a sander at Fraser this year so we do not have the hassle we had last year?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am working from memory. I understand we have not placed a sander at Fraser for a number of reasons that have been cited in this House through legislative returns and correspondence. It appears to me, unless Members can persuade me to the contrary, that it is serving the purpose adequately, and it will remain as is currently the practice. The sander will not be located at Fraser.

Mr. Lang: I would like to go back to the road conditions that occurred in mid-October. I was a little amazed at the comment that the reason we had such a severe problem was because the second crew had not been put in place at that time. Why had the crew not been put in place at that time?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member will recall from his days that the second crew is usually put on around the middle of October. This icing condition occurred around the first week of October, so it was technically about two weeks before the crew normally comes on. That precipitated an earlier-than-normal installation of the second crew, so the crews were put in place some two weeks before it was normally intended.

Mr. Lang: What is the department policy for this forthcoming year in view of the results of this year? Will the second crew be put on earlier? What decisions have been taken so it does not happen again? I had a number of complaints that I am sure the Minister received as well. People were very disappointed to find that the necessary equipment was not on the road until eight or nine o’clock that morning when, at eleven o’clock the night before, it was starting to drizzle; you did not have to be Einstein’s close cousin to figure that out.

What policy steps has the Minister taken to ensure there is some force there that can be called upon if we come up against these severe weather conditions again? It can conceivably happen in September, not just the first week of October.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I have to trust the administrative judgment of the departmental officials to address these types of things. I am certainly not going to arbitrarily implement a policy saying that second crews will be put in place in the middle of September in anticipation of weather conditions. The wisdom and experience of highways officials far exceeds mine and I will leave it to them.

What can be learned from this experience is that highways people ought not to be caught with delayed response to weather conditions. Certainly there is no way I would prevent the necessary authorization of overtime for crews to go out early. I would not discourage foremen or responsible officials from reading weather conditions and staying in close communication with weather forecasting. In the October instance it was a simple case where someone made a poor judgment on weather conditions. Had the prediction been made through the night, as the Member noted, that the drizzle could turn to sleet and freeze on the ground, then there would not have been as severe a problem with crews coming to work at the normal time.

Certainly the expertise, experience and efficiency of the highways people has to be relied upon to read those weather conditions well in advance with full knowledge of what weather forecasts are predicting and to respond accordingly.

From a policy point of view, I have the obligation to ensure the roads are safe and officials have the liberty to respond quickly and properly to conditions.

It seems to me that on the occasion that the Member refers to, only a portion of the roads were actually affected by ice conditions. As I recall, on one side of Whitehorse there were no icy conditions; on the other side, within 10 miles, conditions were icy. While it may have been difficult to predict, certainly the department is in a position to use the best forecasting and authority at their disposal to effectively respond.

Mr. Devries: I would just like to go back to what the Member for Kluane was talking about: local hire. During the election campaign last spring this was a hot topic in Watson Lake. Shortly thereafter it seemed to kind of die away, because the hot topic was of the Alaska Highway and that little piece of construction on the transport. The road superintendent there, Mr. Greenway, I believe, felt that quite often it seemed that the local people were turned down and people were sent down from Whitehorse to fill in these positions.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I would certainly appreciate the Member providing me, privately or otherwise, specifics relating to local hire, because I am very sensitive to this and I want to see it protected, both as a policy of this government and as a desire by this ministry. The issue of people coming in from other communities to a camp can sometimes be the result of the available skill level of people in the community and the available work force that is on auxiliary status around the territory. It may well be - but I only cite this as a possibility - that an equipment operator is required in Watson Lake and no one is qualified for that position in Watson Lake. A person may be sent in from the available list, say, from Teslin, who is willing to move. While we have a local hire policy, it is not local-local, in terms of exclusivity to the area. It is local hire where preference is given to the immediate area. I think the Member for Kluane and I have discussed that aspect on a couple of occasions.

I simply invite the Member to share with me what he can regarding possible infractions relating to local hire because I am really sensitive  about the utilization of local people, where possible, from an area for jobs that are available. From the previous discussion, I can see that it would be useful for me to investigate a couple of concerns being raised by Members opposite and perhaps speak to it at further length when we hit the O&M and capital mains.

Mr. Brewster: I would like to go now to the Takhini Bridge, which I believe had a new face lift this year. The rumour is very very strong that the footings are gone and nothing was done with those footings. Could the Minister elaborate on this?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am not aware that there is any problem related to the Takhini Bridge, but rather to the contrary. I am aware the Takhini Bridge had problems and, in the course of this past year, we did considerable retrofits and renovations to that bridge. I believe it was $500,000 worth. It was part of a program by which we are addressing all major bridges in the territory.

I have been persuaded by department officials that it is far wiser and more efficient and economic to maintain a bridge, rather than repair it when you have to. If the life expectancy of the bridge is 20 years, somewhere around the fifteenth or eighteenth year you start ensuring it does not reach a state of collapse, which is going to cost you far more than proper maintenance would have a little earlier. That is my general understanding of the approach taken on the Takhini Bridge. If anything, I had complaints about lineups while they waited for the one lane of traffic to pass.

Mr. Brewster: I think that is the point of what we are trying to get at. Number one, you fixed the top of it. You put on a new road base, but is the Minister telling me his department was never informed that the footings were eroding beneath that bridge and that, if they were not fixed then, they would have to lift all that new concrete up to get those footings in, and we will have another road blockage next year?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member is quite correct in saying the decking was replaced with new concrete, which was necessary from the analysis that was done on the bridge through previous studies. We retained expertise to assess that damage. It is my understanding that the rebar was corroding in the existing concrete, which necessitated the decking.

However, during the course of the work this summer, there was damage found to the piers, more than was anticipated. However, the damage is not to the extent of any safety concern for the bridge, nor will it require of the existing work redone. Part of the pier repair was done this year, and there is some additional work to be concluded next year. That is the assurance I can give the Member. There is no rework that has to be done but, yes, there was damage to the piers that had not been calculated when the work began, and that will be done next year.

Mr. Phillips: Just so we get this on the record, my understanding of the project is that they removed the old deck on the bridge because of the faults the Minister stated. After they removed the deck from the bridge, they discovered there were some problems with the piers. I believe two of the piers, the one on the north end and the second one on the north end, were in the worst shape. The pier on the south end was determined to be sound. The second pier in the south end had some problems with it, but they were not as extensive as the problems with the north end piers.

I understand the government issued a contract for one pier to be repaired only, and that was a pier on the north end. It came in somewhere around $110,000, I believe. At that time, the government was advised by the contractor that, while the deck was off the bridge, while the swing stages were in place and while the bridge was closed to limited traffic, the government should consider repairing all the piers, because that is the time to do it, when you do not have to lift tons of concrete to get at the existing piers. In the government’s wisdom, it was decided not to proceed that way. What is going to happen now is that, next year, another tender is going to be called on that bridge. I think you will find that the contractor involved gave the government another price after he did the first pier, and it appears it was not going to cost quite as much money as the first one since he had all the equipment and everything in place. Next year, we are going to have to have a new set of lights on that bridge, another swing stage put on the bridge, and the existing concrete may have to be lifted, just so they can get at the other piers in order to repair them.

I am suggesting to the Minister that it would have cost a lot less to repair the bridge at the time they had the surface off it then it is going to cost us to repair it this summer. The work should have been done this summer because now you are going to inconvenience the people in that whole area next summer. It is going to take a good part of next summer to repair those piers. The Minister should have given that due consideration when the contractor approached him last year. Why did he not?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am not quite as familiar with some of the details the Member has stated. I am aware the work that is required to complete the pier repair can quite be done efficiently next year in spite of the work that has been done this year. I appreciate the suggestion that it may have been cheaper to do it this year. A decision like that would not have been taken lightly and certainly there would have been a large number of reasons for it to have been deferred to the subsequent year.

I will undertake to bring back more detailed information respecting the issue of doing the work this year versus next year. I am not adequately informed, and would like to be. I would like to share that with the Member. I appreciate his raising that detail.

Mr. Phillips: There is currently a speed restriction for Curragh Resources trucks on that bridge. I think they have limited them to 15 kilometres per hour across the bridge. Now that the bridge has a new surface on it, and is sound, is that restriction lifted? Can these trucks now cross the bridge the way they cross any other bridge in the Yukon, or is that restriction going to stay on there because with the new information we have on the piers not being sound we have to keep the speed restriction on because it is really not as safe as it could be? It could have been made safer this year if we had done all the work then, but now we are going to have to wait another year with the restriction on the bridge because they did not do the work last summer they knew they had to do.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The ore trucks are required to reduce their speed to 15 kilometres on all bridges. Whatever we do to any bridge will not change that. It is part of the agreement we have with Yukon Alaska Transport.

I have been assured by the experts in the department that the bridge is entirely safe with the condition of the pier as it is now. We are proceeding with work next year. I will bring back detailed financial and engineering information respecting why we may not have done that this year.

Mr. Lang: Is the Minister telling this House that it was not brought to his attention that there was a real possibility of and an extension to that contract to complete the work this year? Was there not a request put forward by the administration to Cabinet for further financing to finish the job rather than waiting?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am trying to remember how the Member phrased his question. Specifically, there was no request to seek additional financing for the project this year.

That was strictly an administrative matter. It surfaced in budget preparation for next year and the budget deficiencies that were found were explained to me. I was assured that the bridge was safe and the bridge will be completed next year. That is the short of it.

Mr. Lang: Could the Minister tell us how much it is going to cost to complete this structural rehabilitation of the bridge?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am just checking my capital budget for next year and I am sure he can do the same thing. It may not be in that detailed a state but I can provide the information to the Member later.

Mr. Phillips: I think we have made our point here: it was a problem and it was a problem that was known last summer when the bridge was under repair. It looks like what is going to happen now is that the new contractor, whoever that may be, is going to have to put in new traffic lights, install new swing stages, and he is going to have to restrict the traffic flow on that road. He is going to have to jack up the new concrete that is on the bridge - tons and tons of concrete - so it is going to make that job a lot more difficult. It is hoped that he will not damage any of that concrete when he has to lift it off the piers to repair the damaged piers.

Quite frankly, I cannot believe, for the life of me, that repairing those piers next summer will not be a lot more expensive than had the government done it last year. I think they should have done it all in one shot. When they knew the bridge was in bad shape, they should repaired the bridge. Now we have a bridge that cannot be declared sound. The Minister says that it can be declared sound, but I can tell the Minister that I took the opportunity, when the bridge had its surface off, of walking down to the pier and chipping away with a bar onto that concrete on that middle pier, and it just fell apart. That is not a sound pier and there are tons and tons of vehicles going over that bridge every day.

They did repair that section by capping it with more concrete but they did not do what they did to the first pier by digging down inside and putting new rebar in and reinforcing the whole thing; that was what was recommended by the contractor and that was what the government knew, this summer, that they had to do; yet they decided that they would not go ahead this year with the contract, that they would tender it next summer. All I am saying is that I think we are going to find that in the long run it is going to cost us a lot more money to repair this bridge next year, than it would have cost to do it right this year.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I understand the Member’s argument and I simply want to reassure him that the decision was not taken either lightly or without professional expertise. I, too, visited the bridge; I, too, saw the conditions the Member describes. At the same time, the Member has to recognize that there are budget limitations within any given year and a decision to postpone that portion of job completion until next year, given that they uncovered it during the course of the reconstruction, certainly does not leave me any reason to question the judgment of the professionals. I hope the Member is not seeking an engineering consultant’s contract, but certainly I am willing to provide some detail to the Member, as I promised, within the next day or so.

Mr. Phillips: It is not as if we discovered this problem in September as we were putting the new surface on the bridge. We discovered this problem, I believe, in late June or early July - some time in July. They knew, when they had the surface off the bridge, and they were advised to do it then, it would have probably added a couple of weeks in total to the whole contract. The contract would still have been done this year. The concern that I have is that we missed the window of opportunity and now not only is it going to cost us a lot more money, it is going to create a lot more inconvenience to the people who live out in that area.

The Minister was going to find us the costs of that project. What did it cost us to do it last year? Where do we find it in the new budget this year? What is the total amount that has been allocated to it? I understand that not only is there going to be associated costs for repairing the bridge, as they know it has to be repaired, but I understand that now, with its new surface, there may have to be a new engineering study to decide how they can even repair the bridge with the hundreds of tons of new surface material now on the bridge that will have to be lifted before the piers can be worked on?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The budgetary estimate for the entire bridge reconstruction, including both piers, is anticipated to be $738,000.

Mr. Phillips: Is that what they spent last year for putting a new surface on the bridge and repairing the two piers, or is that what is anticipated to be spent next year?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: To clarify the numbers relating to the bridge expenditure, we are still seeking the specific amount anticipated for the pier repair next year. The pre-engineering and design costs on the bridge were $90,000, and $70,000 of that would have been spent in 1988-89. The total bridge construction cost should be $648,000 for this year.

Mr. Brewster: I would like a breakdown of what progress has been made on the Granger subdivision. Have any lots been sold? Is anyone moving in? What is happening?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member is familiar with phase 1 of Granger. The first stage of development provided for 121 lots. Currently, 15 residential lots are sold or under an application for purchase. Seven lots are identified as park, school, multi-family, or service-commercial lots. It would appear that we have 99 residential lots currently available in Granger. For the Member’s information, power and paving for all phase 1 lots is completed.

Mr. Lang: Last spring we were discussing infill and finding lots within the City of Whitehorse. Can the Minister tell us how many lots they found through this method?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am advised that that exercise is not completed. It is being done in conjunction with the City of Whitehorse. I expect it to be concluded over this winter. The lands branch and the city are engaged in discussions for identification of those lots and a process by which they will be delineated to bring them to sale.

Mr. Lang: The Minister told us the same thing last spring. There were discussions with the city and decisions were to be held over the course of the summer. I do not understand why the Minister told us last spring that they were doing it. We budgeted money to do it, and something was to be done to come up with more land. If you are not going to do it, do not tell us you are going to do it and then not do it.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am advised it is simply taking more than the anticipated length of time to reach agreement on what areas ought to be infill areas. It is a discussion with the city that has not concluded. No agreement has been made on lot selection.

Mr. Lang: What is the problem here? Is YTG recommending that they intercede in areas that have been designated as green belts? Is that where the problem lies?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member is quite familiar with the potential for infill lots. There are a couple of areas in Porter Creek and I spoke about them in the spring.

Specifically, we are not recommending the invasion of green belt areas. We are recommending areas where land development exists and it is reasonable and not expensive to bring more serviced lots into being. I am saying that discussions have not concluded. There are no particular delays - just delays.

Mr. Lang: I know there have been a couple of lots that came onstream on Oak Street and Aspen Place, for a total of four lots. The department earns a bouquet in that they were informing people of what they were doing in these particular cases, and everybody appreciated it.

One observation I would make, and did make to the administration and Minister in August, is why were these lots not available in August or September? If somebody wanted to build, footings could be put down in reasonable weather with considerably less costs to the buyer. I notice one house going up and I am sure the cost is substantially more than it would have been two months earlier.

The next time some land is available, surely we can make it a high priority to advertise and get it out. The department starts worrying about other things, such as a lottery for only four lots. If we have only four or five lots let us get them out earlier in the summer, and give everybody fair opportunity to apply for them. There is no reason that their release had to wait as long as it did.

Can the Minister assure this House that when lots are made available they will be put out expeditiously? It is crazy for the government to be holding onto this property. It is money in its pocket and, more importantly, it is more cost to the individual. Surely we are here to serve the public, not ourselves.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I will assume that they accept the Member’s suggestions about expediting available lots. Now that the Member mentions those particular lots, I do recall his correspondence on the matter and our addressing of the situation. I appreciate his comments. I am sure the department is acutely aware of the need to move expeditiously when land is available. In these particular four lots, if I recall correctly, there was some paving that was completed prior to them being made available. It may or may not have been laid. I do not know. I appreciate the Member’s suggestion for the expeditious release of lots early in the year to allow for building. It makes good sense to me.

Mr. Brewster: I would like to move on to the recreational lots on Pine Lake. When is the lottery going to be held for them? Has this been decided, and when will they be up for sale?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am glad the Member raised the question. I seek his advice on some of the problems surrounding that development. As the Member is aware, Pine Lake is a recreational development near Haines Junction but outside the municipality. I have been lobbied by this municipality to provide some restrictive sales covenants on the property. As the Member is also aware, I met at some length with this council. I believe part of the meeting was a public meeting, and there was quite a strong representation made at that meeting that the lot sales be restricted to Haines Junction.

We discussed that at some length, and concluded that the best approach would be to go for a general sale of five of the nine lots through a lottery system, hold back four of them, and see how the sales went. I believe that has been the final communication to the municipality. I am now waiting to see if they find that agreeable and acceptable. I say “acceptable” only because I sought their advice once they began their lobby to restrict the sales to Haines Junction. As the Member knows, that is fraught with a lot of complexities, particularly since it is outside the municipality.

I am interested in the Member’s point of view about restricted sales in communities. It is something we do not do, as land that is in the territory is available to all territorial people, and it posed something of a dilemma for me. I believe the compromise reached may resolve the matter. We release some of the lots, see how the sales go, and then decide how to release the remaining four.

To answer the Member’s question about when this is going to happen, I anticipate the municipality will be responding shortly, because it is only recently that I finalized the approach I proposed to them. They are probably in the process of reviewing it now, and I expect to hear from them in the next couple of weeks. I anticipate we will be putting them up for sale in January.

Mr. Brewster:  The first thing is that I would advise the Minister that I am not here for questioning; I am here to ask the questions.

As I understand it, those lots will all have to have large holding tanks.

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  Working from memory of the issue, which was rather intense six weeks ago, my understanding is that the lots were developed to be large enough to contain septic fields. Those existing nine lots in the development do not have to have holding tanks only. They could, but they are large enough to contain septic fields. Part of the discussion with the municipality and the residents at that meeting surrounded what approach to use for further lot development. I have to admit that I did not get a very clear signal, and whether or not further lot development beyond those nine is advisable is something the lands people are reassessing. There is mixed opinion on the matter.

In the first instance, the lake is apparently very precious and beautiful. It may be required for water supply to Haines Junction some time in the future. There was a resistance to massive development in that lake shore area. Neither the lands branch, nor I, have taken any position about future development. It was discussed whether or not those nine lots could be cut in half and made to use holding tanks, but it was decided not to do that. As it stands now, the nine lots are there. We intend to release five of them for public sale through lottery. We will hold back four of them and make a decision about whether we restrict these to Haines Junction and area after we see the results of the first five, because it can become very complicated.

The existing nine are large enough to hold septic fields; holding tanks are not necessary. Certainly, I would expect they can be used if people wish.

Mr. Brewster:  There are a couple of things I would ask. It amazes me that you can be right by the lake and put in a septic field when we have other people sitting a mile and a half from a river and they cannot put in a septic field. If they put in a holding tank, - and this will be coming up again when we discuss Mendenhall, so maybe you can get the answer - who is going to pay to haul the sewage to Haines Junction, and who is going to pay the municipality for looking after sewage outside their district?

I made it very plain to the Minister that I question the giving of authority to municipalities to make decisions outside of their area, when the people in the outside areas cannot even vote for them.

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  I have a deep and abiding respect for what the Member is saying in regard to municipalities having authority for areas outside the municipality. I want the Member to realize that I sought their advice because they came with a lobby. Municipalities, rightly or wrongly, have useful input to areas adjacent to the municipality. I accept that at face value.

It does not suggest that municipalities have authority and control over areas outside the municipality. From my perspective, it means that advice is welcomed and useful, and that is the extent of it. In this particular case, the compromise I provided out of the interest and representation made by the municipality was to sell only five of the nine lots and reassess whether restrictive sales should be made after that. I wholeheartedly respect what the Member is saying regarding the influence of the municipality on an adjacent area. Where do you start drawing the line? Do you restrict sales in that area to just Haines Junction? Do you go as far as Champagne? Do you go over to Destruction and Burwash? Do you go as far as Beaver Creek? Do you come into Mendenhall? What restriction are you going to impose, and what right does any area have for restricted sales of those particular lots? It is a complex question.

I anticipate being faced with a tough decision yet on that score.

The question was relating to sewage. It is a problem. The way the lots are now structured, people can put in septic fields. There is no obligation on the part of government to provide a service, should they choose to put in a holding tank. From a service point of view, if the adequate business was there, I am sure the private sector would jump at the chance to collect and dispose of the sewage. On the question of what the government is going to do about utilizing Haines Junction’s facilities for sewage, this poses another complex issue. It is something that was raised at the municipal level. It is something that will have to be discussed. It is something we have to address.

At the moment, the lots provide for sewage disposal by septic systems. There is no need for holding tank discharge and the haulage of sewage. If the need does arise because people choose to put in holding tanks, then we are going to have to make a policy decision on the matter and assess whether we have any obligation to assist with that. I do not think it will come to that. From my understanding and discussions with the municipality, it looks to me like Willow Acres is being considered for holding tanks. It is quite predictable that Haines Junction will have sewage discharge capability for hauling and we may not have a problem.

I am not sure I have given the Member a clear answer, but it is one we have not resolved because, at the moment, there is no identified need for that.

Mr. Brewster: That is not what I am getting. As I pointed out, these lots are right on the lake, yet there are people up on Aishihik Road who have to put in 5,000 gallon holding tanks. They cannot even have an outhouse in back. They have been stopped.

In Mendenhall, one individual was stopped from putting in a lousy little outhouse while he is trying to build. They are going to have to have holding tanks. It is about time the government got ready to make a policy. Where is all this sewage going - to Whitehorse or to Haines Junction? Who is going to pay the shot? Was it in the contracts in Mendenhall that they would haul their own sewage? Has this government checked with the environmental people, who seem to have a different philosophy on this thing than the government does?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The issue of policy development for solid waste and sewage effluent discharge and containment is something I have directed to the committee I have struck to assist me with developing a clear policy for rural areas. With respect to Mendenhall, there was no specific agreement respecting the type of sewage disposal that would be entertained. It is something that is the obligation of the lot owner, as would be the case at Pine Lake. The responsibility for sewage disposal is the obligation of the lot owner. Where the government would come into any obligation is something I am still wrestling with and am waiting for some clear policy development.

I know of the instance at Mendenhall that the Member raised. I saw his witty correspondence on the matter. I have a similar question on what guidelines Environmental Protection Services provide. Are they consistent? I have included EPS on the committee that is striking a policy on special wastes and waste management. More than ever, I am hoping the authorities outside this government are in full cooperation and communication with this government as we develop sewage disposal policy for places like Mendenhall and Pine Lake.

Mr. Brewster: The letter I got back was another study of the Mendenhall area that I had already read five or six times, so that is how witty they are when they reply to your witty letters.

Was it ever stated to the people who took these lots that they would have to haul sewage to Whitehorse or Haines Junction and pay for this? They thought they were getting cheap lots, but when they are through, these lots are going to cost an awful lot of money.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: My advice is that according to the agreement for the land sale that took place, the lot owners are responsible for their sewage disposal. Logically, they ought to be able to install septic fields and sewage disposal systems on the property. Certainly my recollection serves me that those lots do have percolation capability to take septic fields. I am puzzled why anyone would even consider hauling sewage to Whitehorse.

Mr. Brewster: I agree with you. As I read the Mendenhall study, that is what it seems. These people thought the same as you and I, but I already know of one holding tank there, and I know of others having problems. You have seen the letter where they could not even have an outhouse while they built the house. If the environmental people keep going, they will all have holding tanks and they will have to haul it somewhere. This means somebody will have to enter into an agreement with the municipality of Haines Junction or the City of Whitehorse to take this. That is a long haul. These people cannot afford to pay anything like that.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I certainly agree with the Member that it would be an onerous cost burden to the Mendenhall residents to haul sewage to either Haines Junction or Whitehorse, on top of which the issue would arise as to whether either of those communities would accept that, and at what cost.

I am hoping questions like this can be addressed by the waste management committee I have struck. It is working with the department under terms of reference that call for policy development options to be brought forward on how to deal with sewage disposal in the rural areas where it is a problem, and what guidelines we are going to use. On top of this, I have included in this committee the branches related to environmental and sewage control so they can sit at the same table and come forward with recommendations.

Mr. Brewster:  I just bring this up because it is going to be a very very big issue, and I just do not want everybody to bail out and leave the taxpayers to foot the bill again. It is not saying much about the Environmental Protection Services when you write and lay complaints, whether they or witty or not, and they send you a book that you have already read about 10 times. I can tell you other stories about them, but I will not; they probably should not be told in the House.

I appreciate the fact that the Minister did take my suggestion and smooth out the road so that they could get a vehicle over it; however, as I read the study, there is supposed to be 20 millimetres of finely crushed two-millimetre gravel on it and that is why I wanted the Minister to go out with me, to show me where all that gravel disappeared to, because it is certainly not on the road. I think that these people deserve better treatment. For instance, lot 20 does not even have a road going in to it and yet they sold a person this lot. There are other people running up and down the power line, which people said they were not to do. I do not know where they were supposed to go to get their lots. They have to build their houses within five years and they have only got a couple of years left. Some of them have not even been able to get started. They have destroyed vehicles in there, and it is a rough road to hoe out there. On the other hand, I have no doubt, just talking with these people, that they are going to make a success of it. They are not going to be homesteaders for very long, they are going to be another community. Whether the government likes it or not, they have made up their minds that they are going to do this. Maybe a few will give up, but most of them have made of their minds that they are going to make a community. My suggestion is that the government cooperate with them and help them, at least on the roads. I sent pictures of some of the mud holes to the Minister, and it amazes me how strongly the environmental people feel about closing down the Tatshenshini, and up there, there is bush this high on both sides of the road that has been left there as a fire hazard. When people bought their lots they had to cut that out to even get in to their lots; that is the kind of the road they made. All the water lays on the road. Anybody can tell you that. I do not have to be an engineer to tell you that you cannot do that. The environmental people are not going to say anything about that because the government did it, but if anybody else would do that, bingo, they would be in trouble. I suggested, and I am seriously hoping, that in this new budget there is some money to do something out there to help those people.

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  Again, I appreciate the Member’s comments but I have to suggest that he exercise caution on the extent to which he is asking the government to come forward with expenditure for upgrading roads to any great extent at a place like Mendenhall, because it is certainly something that I have wrestled with. The Member knows quite well that Mendenhall was brought onstream as a low-cost development, and it was deliberately done at the minimum cost possible, so that there could be cheap land available in some measure of quantity to people of the Yukon. The costs that were incurred to bring that development onstream were deliberately kept low, and that required services to be at an absolute minimum. The people who acquired lots in Mendenhall acquired them under an agreement that said that you get what you see, this is the level of service provided in order to keep the prices low. In that respect, it was an excellent deal. The fact that I made a decision to inject further money can arguably be challenged, because what has essentially happened is that public funds have gone in to improve the individual lot prices of that development. I did that with considerable agony, in the sense that we were tampering with an original principle to bring those lots onstream. I appreciate what the Member is doing in representing the cause of Mendenhall people, but I have to caution the Member to recognize that what he is asking is certainly not fair regarding the public use of funds. The only avenue we could probably pursue on that would be to apply a frontage charge to individual lots for a further upgrading of services.

It is one that requires some fairly careful analysis because of the nature of the development.

Mr. Brewster: All we are asking is for you to live up to your commitment. The contract said there would be a road in there that was passable most of the year. It was not passable last year. In some places, it was four-wheel drive only. When the trucks went in to do the little bit of work the Minister wanted done in there, they had to turn around and put gravel in before they could even get in there themselves. Nobody will even drive in to service you. You cannot get lumber or propane or anything else. The road is completely tied up. The best time of the year in the whole is probably the middle of winter. It is all frozen and they can crawl over top of it.

It states very plainly in the study book that there was to be a layer of gravel put on there, and it is not. That is why I want the Minister to go out, so he does not think I am coming in here just talking. I can show him there is no gravel. I defy anyone in the government or elsewhere to show me where they put gravel on that road. That is a public challenge.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I would like to assure the Member that I have been out to Mendenhall a couple of times. I saw the conditions that were being described by residents last spring. As the Member correctly referenced, we did go in and do some upgrading.

The issue of the roads at Mendenhall, as would be the case at any homestead development, is not one where we spell out a commitment to put in a road to a particular standard. That was clearly the desire in the original policy but, as each development comes onstream, it retains individual characteristics and lot pricing accordingly. In the case of Mendenhall, we had to keep the prices down to a $4,000 level, which we did, in order to provide for an equity portion that could be written down over 10 years. Between the equity and the actual dollar value, we had to sell those lots at less than the market value. Had we put in much more development cost in the original stages, there would not have been an opportunity to provide the cheap land. That is the basic principle.

I appreciate the Member’s comments. We have done what we could to put the roads into a condition where they are passable for a portion of the year. It is going to be a really serious issue to go in and do more upgrading.

Mr. Brewster: I suspect that what they do not understand, and what I do not understand, is that in the winter months it is passable, and the rest of the time it is not. Water runs off the hill and sits in the road and you cannot get out. It stands to reason you cannot get out. There are windrows on both sides of the road, made of trees and dirt that the Caterpillars pushed there. Are any of the other subdivisions or homesteading areas experiencing the same problems, or any problems?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The only other homestead subdivision we have is the Robinson subdivision. The Member is quite familiar with the road issue at that development. In that respect, Robinson had a similar problem to Mendenhall, albeit, on a comparative level, far less of a problem. My recollection is that we spent about $8,000 to fix up several potholes on the Robinson road, and we spent about $21,000 fixing up the roads at Mendenhall. This is after the fact. This is after the sale of the lots, after the agreements were in place. This was money from general revenue.

Mr. Brewster: Does the Minister feel the government lived up to its agreement in these contracts by putting in that road the way it is now?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The original purpose of the homestead subdivision was to provide cheap land. The only way you can provide cheap land is to minimize the development costs you put into it.

In that respect the roads pushed into Mendenhall were adequate for the purposes of the subdivision. I seriously addressed the arguments that subsequently ensued that we did not live up to a stated policy commitment of a certain standard of road. I analyzed those arguments thoroughly, and made the essentially arbitrary decision that we would go in and tidy up a few spots, and we did.

I believe we have met our commitment to provide passable roads for the major portion of the year. To provide further upgrading is something I am not prepared to do at this time, except where we can recover those costs. It would not be fair to have sold cheap land and then spend a bunch of money to improve the value of that property without assigning some charge back to the property.

Mr. Brewster: Did the original contract not say that the road would be ditched on each side?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Unfortunately I did not bring the original policy with me because we could compare what it calls for and interpret it accordingly. The original policy did say ditching would be done where necessary. I forget the  precise wording of the policy relating to the width and standard of the road, but it is articulated. That was the policy intent.

In the case of Mendenhall, the property had to be brought onstream at a very cheap cost in order for it to be available. If we had gone to upgrading the roads we could discuss the impact of my decision this summer. We spent $20,000 on those lots. If you pro-rate that development cost to each individual lot, you are likely to add another $1,000 to the price of the lot.

The Member asks whether we lived up to our commitment on the roads. As of this point in time, yes.

Mr. Brewster: People pick up a policy paper that was shown all around. It was a good one. I do not have a problem with it. The policy paper says you were going to ditch the road and not one piece of that road has ever been ditched. It has never been ditched because all the windrows are lying on both  sides and the water all comes inside. How can any government say that it is fair? I do not know how forestry and the environmental people let you do it to start with. I guess when you are government you can get away with it and nobody else can. It is a horrible mess.

I will be asking the Minister for support when I introduce a motion in this House that the people in the Mendenhall area get another three-year extension because of the trouble they have had getting lumber and building material in to build their homes.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I will revive the policy and deal more specifically with the Member on the issue of roads.

I do not believe the Member is correct that the road is required to be ditched throughout.

Secondly, I have driven through Mendenhall and can fairly say my recollection is that there is some ditching on some of the roads. If the Member recalls, one portion of one of the roads is a roadway constructed to a former CN repeater site so there was a fairly substantial trail in there to begin with.

The Member does not disagree with the policy. The Member does not disagree with the creation of the homestead lots. The Member does not disagree with the price of the lots. I think he agrees with me that we have met our commitment and have provided a reasonable improvement of service to Mendenhall.

Chair: We will have a break at this time.

Recess

Chair: I call the Committee to order.

Mr. Brewster: I will let that subject go because we are not getting anywhere. The Minister can rest assured this is going to be with us for probably the rest of our time in the Legislature unless something is done.

During the spring session we passed a motion to form a committee with Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Territories and British Columbia. What has been done about that committee? Or is that a little out of line?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I think the Member raised the issue of the Alaska Highway during Question Period. I mentioned many steps that have taken place with respect to the Alaska Highway cause. During the summer I had the opportunity to meet with the federal Public Works Minister, Mr. McKay, and alerted him at some length to the concerns we face. I also had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Bouchard, the Transport Minister, and expressed the same concerns. I even had the occasion to meet with the former Transportation Minister for B.C., Mr. Vant. He is no longer in the position and I communicated with the new Minister, Rita Johnston, specifically on the B.C. end of things. They have not agreed to form a part of a committee but are prepared to jointly lobby the federal government about the highway.

They have not expressed any objection to our restoration of an equilibrium between the B.C. and the Yukon portions of the highway for maintenance and capital, principally capital, because that is where the inequity primarily sits.

In addition, there has been considerable correspondence relating to the need for better funding to upgrade the highway. I should also add that, earlier in the year, my officials were able to meet with Alaskan officials in was a follow-up to a meeting that Members of this Legislature and I had had with Mark Hickey during a legislative exchange last March.

As recently as today, the public works officials, Alaskan officials, Transport Canada officials, and our own officials have been in a meeting with respect to the Shakwak portion of the highway.

The committee consists of those four bodies; B.C. is not part of it. On the B.C. side, I am working directly with the Minister to address the highway issue.

The short answer to the Member is that the committee has met as late as this afternoon. Unfortunately, I cannot say how many times they have met. There have been several meetings of portions of the committee between jurisdictions to address the highway question.

Mr. Brewster: I noticed he never mentioned the Northwest Territories or Alberta. It is quite apparent that that motion, like the rest of them, did not go anywhere.

In finishing, I would like to thank the Minister for sending me the letter on the capital cost of the Beaver Creek swimming pool and skating rink. I would like to forward a picture of the Beaver Creek skating rink that you would not give me the cost of. It is my understanding from people up there that it cost $18,000. It looks very beautiful. I think they could put Christmas lights in the trees in the middle of the skating rink and have Christmas in there.They can drive a truck into it.

While I am on it, I might point out to you that there is a place where it is absolutely stupid to spend $10,000 or $18,000. You have five children, none of them go past grade eight, it is in one of the northern parts of our area where they go to school in the dark and come back in the dark. There are no lights. It is just plum squandering, and people up there say why did they not come and talk to us and give us an extra television channel? I cannot answer that. Maybe the other side can.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: If I am understanding what the Member is saying, he is saying the money spent on this skating facility was squandered. I will undertake to determine when this was constructed. It looks to me like it was constructed some time ago. I will get back to the Member with more precise costs and why it is in the condition it is.

I take it the Member can also advise me if the condition is still the same. At the same time, I will have a number of my own questions about why it is in a deteriorated condition and whose responsibility it ought to have been to maintain it. I appreciate the Member bringing it to my attention. I will investigate it fully.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Policy, Planning and Administration

Mr. Lang: Can the Minister give us an outline of any service or consulting contracts that were entered under the O&M expenditures? If so, for what particular initiatives, the amounts, and who were they let to?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Prior to answering the specific question, the $67,000 is primarily due to the funding requirements for departmental land claims. The balance is due to a number of smaller amounts that were offset by position vacancies.

I would take the question on contracts under advisement and get back to the Member.

Mr. Lang: When the Minister was away, we did receive that information. There should not be a problem getting this, because the Minister is also in charge of Government Services. It is obviously available.

The Minister talks about dollars allocated to land claims. Can he be more specific on how much and for what?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The money was essentially for the establishment of two positions: a departmental director of land claims and a senior lands adviser. The lands adviser would be working largely with mapping and matters related to lands.

The departmental director of land claims was the position established in consultation with AYC and principally will be the person coordinating land claims related matters out of the department at the table with a principle function of speaking to matters of self-government and AYC involvement in the communities. The two positions required the identification for $113,000. That is what would be expended over the duration of the year. The reason only $67,000 is being sought is because the balance was offset by a number of items that came under budget, a large component of that being vacancies of positions.

Mr. Lang: Is it the responsibility of the director of land claims to bring forward the position of the Association of Yukon Communities? Are they setting the policy direction for that point of view to be presented at the table?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The two positions, and principally the departmental director position, evolved after some considerable discussion with AYC, branch officials and the land claims secretariat. There is a need for policy development at the table on matters relating to self-government and overlapping municipal concerns. The municipalities identified a desire to have more support in that area when they are dealing with land claims matters in the communities. The position would work in conjunction with the land claims secretariat and at the same time provide advice, information and guidance to AYC. The position is a Public Service Commission position, and as such, an employee of the government. Does that answer the question?

Policy, Planning and Administration in the amount of $67,000 agreed to

On Communications

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Essentially that is a single item postponed. It has not been possible to put the White River translator in place this year and it is to be done next year. We may see this as a revote later.

Mr. Brewster: Exactly what is that going to be when it gets on top of the mountain?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: It is to replace the repeater that is on top of the mountain at White River.

Mr. Brewster: There is a large number of people in that area and they wonder why they cannot get CBC connected to that same tower so they can get radio also.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I am advised that it is similar to the Destruction Bay issue the Member and I shared sometime last spring. The CBC has been reluctant to move on the issue. Perhaps we should exercise the joint lobby we used last time to have the service installed. I can undertake to try to hook CBC into it when we do the installation next year.

Communications in the amount of an under expenditure in the amount of $4,000 agreed to

On Transportation

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The $358,000 is made up of a number of items. The principal increase is the contract at Mayo for an observer\communicator. I believe that is recoverable so it will reflect on the recovery side. It has to show up on the budgeting side for expenditure.

There were additional funds required for some repairs to the Alaska Highway and the Klondike Highway, and some emergency repairs at Stewart Crossing. I believe I hear Members asking for specific amounts.

The Mayo observer\communicator amount was $160,000. The balance is due to various road repairs that were not anticipated.

In the case of the Alaska Highway, that is recoverable money, so it will show up on the recoveries side. In the case of the Klondike Highway, it will not.

Mr. Lang: Surely we know what the amount is for the Alaska Highway, since we are recovering it. Surely you have that information with you. You are asking us to vote money, and we should at least have a general knowledge of the specifics.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I said the Mayo observer\communicator was $160,000; the Alaska Highway costs, $120,000; the Klondike Highway, $50,000. That totals $330,000. There is $28,000 on various others, one of which is some additional costs related to BST application on one of the contracts; another is an adjustment on a gravel contract that was under budget. The $28,000 is miscellaneous.

Mr. Brewster: Maybe I am wrong on this, but you said it was recovered for the Alaska Highway in operation and maintenance recoveries. There is only $59,000. Am I doing something wrong here?

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The Member appears to raise a valid point that I do not have an answer for, but I will provide him with one. If we are showing a recovery of $59,000 and an expenditure of $160,000, they do not jibe. I will provide him with a clarification.

Mr. Lang: Could the Minister tell us what the $160,000 for the Mayo observer\communicator entails? Is it similar to the amount it cost to run all other airports?

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  The nature of the contract is similar to other communities in that the procedure by which a contract is entered into is similar. Various airports have different levels of open hours. The Mayo  one operates for 12 hours, and the contract would involve the provision of observer\communicator services for those 12 hours. I believe the contract calls for about four people to be engaged in that 12-hour service.

I recall some discussion on the level of services at different airports. There is a variance between airports, as I am sure the Member is aware. My own constituents complain that we do not have our airport open long enough. It is just a level of service that is provided by Transport Canada, and the level of service is not something we are in a position to influence. Certainly, if we conclude our agreement with the feds on B and C airports, that would then fall under our jurisdiction at the level of funding currently being provided. We may be in a position to affect levels of service, should they be deemed inadequate or inappropriate  some time in the next year, if and when we sign the agreement with the feds.

Mr. Lang:  I thought we had voted money for the cost of running the various airports. I do not understand why there is $160,000 over and above what we voted last spring.

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  The only new thing that has occurred in the case of Mayo is that previously the federal government provided that service and contracted directly. In the past year, it fell under the same process as the other airports where they contract with us and we in turn contract with a contractor to provide the service. It is all recoverable money.

Transportation in the amount of $358,000 agreed to

On Community Services

Hon. Mr. Byblow:  In anticipation of specific amounts, I have asked my trusty deputy to find those while I tell Members what the increases relate to.

Four hundred and ninety-two thousand dollars is, in part, due to increased requirements for our funding of the Whitehorse Transit System. As Members are aware, we have an agreement by which we pick up, I believe, 60 percent of the deficit of the operation of that facility. That was unanticipated when the budget was first set.

Some additional funding was used to send the Yukon contingent to the Arctic Winter Games. Tied into this number is also overtime pay required for ambulance people, and some smaller amounts are simply reallocations within the department. As well, there was increased requirement for a municipal operating grant that had not been precisely calculated when the budget was first set.

Those figures generally work out in this fashion. For the overtime relating to ambulance attendants, $100,000 in additional money is required. As Members are aware, we ordinarily do not budget overtime as a matter of policy but, in the case of ambulance attendants, you cannot avoid it. You always end up with a shortfall of funds. I have changed that and in the next budget we are going to look at what we have budgeted for overtime for ambulance attendants, but it was not historically done, nor is it in this current budget.

Of the $492,000, $100,000 is for overtime pay; $52,000 is for the increased requirement to the municipal operating grant, which could not have been calculated, given the time the budget was first prepared; the Whitehorse Transit System required an additional $128,000, as our share for financing that operation. I have indicated that we finance 60 percent of the operation of the Whitehorse Transit System. It had a deficit exceeding our projections by a considerable amount, of which $128,000 was our portion. There was $116,000 required for sending our athletes to the Arctic Winter Games in Yellowknife.

As Members recall, the Home Owner Grants increased this past year, and $100,000 has been injected for that purpose.

We may well have a total of more than $492,000 in the figures I have given, but that is offset by some under expenditure in some areas. Those are the principal items of the $492,000.

Community Services in the amount of $492,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures in the amount of $913,000 agreed to

On Capital Expenditures

On Highway Construction

On Planning and Engineering

Hon. Mr. Byblow: The $4,000 is due to position reclassification costs internally.

Planning and Engineering in the amount of $4,000 agreed to

On Klondike Highway #2

Hon. Mr. Byblow: Of the $869,000, I indicated in my opening remarks that we moved some money forward from next year to work in this year: $120,000 was brought forward from next year to do some additional BST work on the Skagway Road. I should point out that while we brought forward monies on the capital side to do the BST work on a portion of road that was completed early, we had our budget adjusted by $40,000 to take into account the reduced maintenance as a result of that. While we moved money forward, we saved money in the process by reducing maintenance.

Additionally, the jobs on the Klondike Highway, in one instance, ran over by $120,000, and one by $83,000. One job was the reconstruction done in the area by Montague House, just this side of Carmacks, and $83,000 for additional work required in the area of Eleven Percent Hill. The balance is just a series of costs overruns on other jobs - some gravel preparations - totalling that $869,000.

Klondike Highway #2 in the amount of $869,000 agreed to

On Campbell #4

Hon. Mr. Byblow: That reduction for $40,000 was budgeted to do engineering work on the section between Faro Junction and Ross River. That was not done. It was deferred to next year principally because of insufficient staff to handle the job. We concentrated on the areas of construction that were in place. It is my intention to restore that next year.

Campbell #4 in the amount of an under expenditure of $40,000 agreed to

On Tagish

Hon. Mr. Byblow: That is some additional work done on the Tagish Road, principally clearing. It was work that had begun the year previous. It was unanticipated.

Mr. Phelps: I do not want to let this opportunity pass by without making a pitch, which I will be making again when we discuss the mains. There are extensive roads into the Taku Subdivision that are of very poor quality and very difficult to maintain. Those roads require resurfacing in the form of crush. They are in terrible shape and the residents are extremely unhappy about them. The government would save a good deal of money in the long run if it put crush on all the Taku Subdivision roads.

The other road I want to mention now, and will be mentioning again, is the road on the east side, from the campground area near the highway to all the cabins along the lake. It requires upgrading. There has been some difficulty getting cooperation from the Carcross/Tagish Indian Band since the road does cross their reservation. I would ask that the government look into that matter as well. I will be raising it again.

Hon. Mr. Byblow: I appreciate the Member’s representation. The roads into the Taku Subdivision are, indeed, our responsibility. The Member is recommending that some surface upgrading take place. It sounds to me like a reasonable suggestion if that is the case. The road on the other side of the river is commonly referred to as the Six Mile Road. I recall over the past two or three years some considerable discussions surrounding that road. It does have major problems in terms of its condition. I believe five or six people live there part-time and some year-round. The Member can correct me on it. I believe we have also had previous discussions with the Carcross/Tagish Indian Band because it does, at least in portion, pass through their lands. I certainly appreciate the matter being flagged to find out the status of those discussions.

Chair: The time now being 5:30 we will break until 7:30 p.m.

Recess

Chair: I will call Committee of the Whole to order.

We will continue with Bill No. 13. Community and Transportation Services, Highway Construction