Whitehorse, Yukon

Wednesday, April 21, 1993 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. We will begin with Prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.

Introduction of Visitors.

Are there any Returns or Documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I have some legislative returns to table.

Hon. Mr. Devries: I have some legislative returns to table.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?

Petitions.

Introduction of Bills.

Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?

Are there any Notices of Motion?

Are there any Statements by Ministers?

This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. Penikett: Yesterday, the Government Leader conceded to the press, if not to the House, that if Curragh could meet the government’s conditions, the company would not need any assistance from the taxpayer.

I would like to ask the Government Leader if he is now prepared to admit what some have suspected for a long time, that the Yukon Party is not prepared to do anything concrete to save the mines at Faro and Watson Lake and that, as he indicated in the newspaper, he does not believe that the government should be doing anything?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not sure I have the Member opposite’s question clear. I believe my statements to the press said that they would still need help with the Grum stripping. This is something we have always been involved in and prepared to help with, as long as the conditions are met so that the taxpayers of the Yukon would have some security for their money.

Nothing has changed in that respect. We are still prepared to help out with the Grum stripping, but, as everyone knows, Curragh has much greater problems that they have to resolve in order for them to be a viable company.

Mr. Penikett: Given that the Government Leader has confirmed that the impossible condition of a first charge on security applies for both the loan guarantee and the stripping program, is it not true that the Ostashek government has done nothing to save a single job at either Faro or Watson Lake?

Essentially, all the government has done is spend a lot of money with Burns Fry and blame other people for problems that are now very much the problems of the Yukon Territory.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: That is a very interesting question and preamble by the Member opposite. Maybe I could turn around and say we blame the Penikett government for not dealing with this issue a year ago in this House, when the Member opposite said, “the taxpayers of the Yukon could not afford a $30 million loan to Curragh on their own”. That is a statement the Member made in this House, which is recorded in Hansard, and he must share some of the blame.

Mr. Penikett: I never balked at taking responsibility for any actions of our government; the trouble is the Government Leader does not want to take any responsibility for anything.

Let me ask the Government Leader: since the situation with the mines has become much worse over the last few months and since the Government Leader bragged in the media yesterday that the people support his plans to flush the Yukon economy down the toilet, would the Government Leader be willing to test his theory by calling a territorial general election at this time?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Finally it comes out in the open, what the six weeks of stalling on the supplementaries has been, what all the wasted taxpayers’ money has been, due to the stalling tactics used by the Members of the Opposition. They are sitting there waiting because they think the Independents are going to bring this government down and they can go back to the people.

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. Penikett: The people are crying out for some leadership on this question. They are not getting it from the present government. It is no wonder that they might be looking for a change. Now the Government Leader has been willing to promote huge public expenditures on loony right-wing megaprojects, like gas pipelines from Watson Lake and railroads to Carmacks, neither of which will create a job in this century and probably not in the next. Why is he being so pig-headed in opposing money for the Grum stripping program, which would put Yukoners back to work immediately?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member opposite is quite wrong. It is not the first time he has been wrong, but he is quite wrong again. We are prepared to advance money for the Grum stripping. We said that in the special debate that was instituted by the Members opposite. I said there that we were prepared to advance $5 million or $6 million to the company over the interim, as long as they were prepared to start stripping the Grum deposit. All we needed was some security for the money. It would be very foolhardy for any government to be advancing money to a company that is under CCAA, not knowing whether they are going to be able to restructure and survive. All we would be doing is enhancing the assets for when the banks come to collect.

Speaker: I would remind the Member that before he asks his first supplementary that questions should not contain inferences, impute motives or cast aspersions upon other Members of the House.

Mr. Penikett: My supplementary is about the question of the economic security of this territory. I would like to ask the Government Leader, since we are talking about something of great significance to this territory, if he does not understand that if he fails to act or if he still insists on a impossible condition of a first charge on security, which the banks have refused to give, that the people of this territory, not the government, stand to lose, not $5 million nor $29 million, but millions in lost jobs, homes, failed businesses and shattered lives? Does he not understand his responsibility on that score?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: If the Opposition would move on, permitting us to pass the budget, we would see the generation of over 700 jobs. The fact remains that no matter how much money this government invested in that operation, it is not a guarantee that the company could be saved. The company has a $221 million debt load that it must restructure. The world price of zinc is currently 45 cents a pound and forecasted to remain there throughout this year. No amount of money that we could advance at this point, outside of bailing the company out entirely, which we cannot afford, would help that company.

Mr. Penikett: I do not think the Government Leader is listening, and he has the same problem with this as he does with some of the statements he reads here and some of the math he provides to us in the House.

The point is, the territorial economy is crying out for some action on the Grum stripping program.

He cannot pass the buck; he cannot blame anybody else. Does he not understand that, since there is no viable zinc mine anywhere in the western world at 45 cents-per-pound zinc, the only mines that have a prospect of surviving and continuing to operate are those that continue to operate in some fashion through this period of low prices, and that requires action by this government. Does he not understand that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I have just said that we are prepared to help with the Grum stripping. Is the Member opposite asking us, at a time that a company is under CCAA, to advance unsecured funds for the Grum stripping? Is that what the Member opposite is asking me to do?

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. Cable: Just following up on the previous questions - the Government Leader was on the CBC this morning talking about zinc prices and the prospects for the Curragh operation. The Government Leader has had the advantage of the Burns Fry report and various other technical information that we Members of the House have not had. Is the Government Leader prepared to indicate to the House whether Curragh, at the zinc prices that were discussed in the CBC broadcast, could meet its operating costs in the near future? By operating costs, I mean its total costs less its debt-servicing costs.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I thank the Member opposite for the question. The information we had from Curragh itself is that they cannot break even at 45-cents-per-pound zinc - they cannot even begin to break even at that price.

Mr. Cable: Perhaps the Government Leader misunderstood my question. I was talking about operating costs, not a total break-even picture.

Let me ask this question: if, in fact, the Government Leader reaches the conclusion that the Faro operation cannot be sustained, will the Government Leader amend the budget accordingly to reflect the fact that, rather than contemplating the operation of the mine beginning after the end of the first quarter, the mine will be shut down on a permanent basis?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not know if that is the action this government would take. A lot can happen in six months. Curragh may get their house in order and continue to operate, and the price of zinc may come up. We would be overreacting if we were to try to amend the budget that quickly.

Mr. Cable: I think all the Members are aware of the fact that there is some substantial risk associated with the Curragh operation. Has the Government Leader developed a plan for the whole economy, not just the bail-out of Faro, if Curragh remains down?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I just said that, in the budget that has been tabled in this Legislature that we are waiting to get into approving, there are over 700 jobs, and that will go a long way toward helping the economic health of the territory.

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. Harding: We are well aware that the money Faro seeks for the loan of the Grum stripping is not the sole saviour of the company. We are also aware that the first charge on security, as requested by the Yukon government, has been rejected by the banks.

Does the Government Leader not realize that it is going to take some new spark to ignite a deal here, so we can get people back to work in Faro, Watson Lake and Whitehorse? Does the Government Leader not realize that it is going to take something new?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I do not believe it is going to take something new. It is going to take the price of zinc coming up on the world markets, so the company can be viable and continue to operate. There is no miracle cure for this. As I said, it would be very irresponsible of any government to put money into an operation that is in the tenuous position the Faro operation is in right now, without security for the taxpayers’ dollars.

Mr. Harding: Does the Government Leader not realize that the loan guarantee is an integral part of the equation, and it is the spark that will ignite some movement on equity and the Stronsay sale, so that Curragh can raise working capital to survive these low-level periods? Mines do not just shut down when the production costs are higher than the price of metal. The trick is to stay in business during these times. Does the Government Leader not realize that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not sure whether the Member opposite is living in a dream world, or what. The economics of the mine say it is not viable at these prices. Does he expect that government should be standing there, for any company that is not viable, and continue to pour taxpayers’ dollars into it, regardless of how much you have to put in, with no security? That is not the kind of economics this government believes in.

Mr. Harding: There is no question that the Ostashek government believes in doubling the unemployment rate. That is their economics and their belief. No one in the zinc business in the world is making money right now. The mines that stay open through this period receive some support - I am talking about the Grum stripping right now. Let Curragh raise their own capital. Let them raise it through equity and selling Stronsay - that is fine.

Does the Government Leader not realize that the trick for the Yukon’s economy is to get together with the key players involved in this equation and sit down and negotiate a way to keep the mines open, instead of just sitting there and doing nothing?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: For the Member opposite to say that this government is sitting here and doing nothing is simply not true. We did not give them a $5 million unsecured loan. We did not do that. We did not take that kind of tactic with the taxpayers’ money.

The fact remains that this company is in serious financial difficulty. It is in more difficulty than this government can help them out of. We have $5 million sitting there that could go into the Grum stripping immediately, as long as we get some security for that money.

We are not prepared to use the NDP economics of giving unsecured money to the company.

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. Harding: The Government Leader knows what he did not do, but he does not know what he has done. There is no question, from the answers we have heard, that the Government Leader does not realize that he is increasing the unemployment rate at an astronomical rate.

I believe that the people of the Yukon are willing to accept some risk in an effort to stimulate the economy. Yesterday, he said that the vast majority of Yukoners support his position of not doing anything for those jobs. Does the Government Leader really believe that the vast majority of Yukoners are not prepared to take some risk to try and get those people working again in Faro, Watson Lake and Whitehorse?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: It was interesting to hear the Member’s comments today, when, on a radio program yesterday, he said, “I say forget about the $5 million. Forget about the $5 million loan guarantee. Forget about the $34 million loan guarantee.” That is what he said. The taxpayers of the Yukon are certainly prepared to take some risk if they see some hope that the operation will survive. I do not believe the taxpayers of the Yukon expect their government to simply throw money at something, without any hope of it surviving. We need the world zinc prices to come back up and the company to be able to restructure their debt. Only then will we have a long-term, viable solution.

Mr. Harding: The Yukon government is key to the ability of the company to restructure. It is the chicken and egg theme. The banks are waiting for the Yukon government to ignite the spark.

What the Member for Faro said was to forget about the $5 million and the $34 million, and let us look at a new solution. Let us look at some way to bring all the players together and come up with something creative to salvage the jobs and economy of the territory.

Does the Government Leader not realize that it is going to take something new and creative - some new way of looking at things or movement - to stimulate that spark, get some equity, sell Stronsay and get the Grum stripping activity going in order to entice the banks and entice investors?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The Member opposite seems to think that government should act as the be-all and end-all for private enterprise in the Yukon. If there was any way that this government could advance funds now, with minimal risk, we would be prepared to look at doing that; however, we are facing a deadline of May 3 - less than 10 days from now - and after that deadline, the banks say that they will reserve the right to force bankruptcy proceedings.

It would be very foolhardy for anyone to get involved in a rescue operation of that company, if they do not have $200 million to help the company out.

Mr. Harding: The Government Leader makes a valid point about the May 3 deadline, but surely it is worth a meeting to save thousands of jobs in our tiny private sector economy.

I would ask the Government Leader if he would commit to holding a Faro/Watson Lake mine summit in the Yukon, inviting the major players from the banks and Curragh to sit down and take a fresh look at what can be done to re-open the mines for the long run and get jobs going? Will the Government Leader at least commit to doing that?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: This government is doing everything in its power to get this matter resolved.

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. McDonald: I have a question for the Government Leader on the same subject.

The government has expressed concerns about the Yukon government’s dependency on federal funding. We have a budget before us that anticipates record high levels of funding from the federal government, and further we see the possible collapse of much of the private sector economy.

Why can the government not see that the Curragh situation and the government’s inaction will result in an unprecedented level of financial dependency on the federal government, leaving the Yukon more vulnerable to the moods of politicians thousands of miles away; does he accept no movement in the negotiations, at this point, as being a solution?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: Certainly, if the restructuring of the company and the operation at Faro is not going ahead, there will be an effect on the economy of the Yukon; there is no doubt.

Again, with the situation facing us at Faro and with the limited resources that we have available for investment, we would not be able to help the company survive and we have said that from day one.

We have said that we are fully prepared to get involved in the Grum stripping and we stand by waiting for Curragh to accept the offer that is on the table, but they will not accept the offer. Right now, they are more concerned with saving the company than they are in saving the Faro operation.

The $34 million guarantee is there and the banks know the offer is there; we do not have to do anything more on that issue; the money is there and ready to go ahead as soon as we see that the company is viable.

Mr. McDonald: Is the government willing to direct some of the biggest budget on record directly toward a stripping program, without unreasonable conditions, but with, instead, conditions that the company and the banks can meet, so there will eventually be some return on the government’s capital investment, unlike much of the rest of the capital budget?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I just want to go on record saying that while this is the largest capital budget in the history of the Yukon, it is one of the lowest in terms of discretionary capital spending. The rest is for capital projects that are funded by the United States government and by the federal government that have to go ahead or the money is not there.

Mr. McDonald: That is a very disputable point, but that was not the answer to the question. Is the government willing to direct some of its capital funding directly toward a Grum stripping program, in a way that will be acceptable to both Curragh and to the banks, without impossible conditions but with realistic conditions? Does he place a value on the exposed ore body in Faro?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I thank the Member opposite for the question. That is exactly what we are trying to do. There are not 14 conditions attached to the $5 million that we are prepared to advance for the Grum stripping at this point. All we are asking is for some sensible security for the taxpayers of the Yukon. That is all we are asking for. We have not been able to get very far with it. Right now, it appears to us that the company is not interested in stripping the Grum deposit at this point.

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. McDonald: The Government Leader has indicated that Curragh Inc. is interested in protecting itself, and not protecting the jobs in Faro. One would argue, quite reasonably, that the two are interlinked. If they had the operation in Faro running, they would be able to salvage some form of a corporate entity.

I would like to ask a question respecting the Grum stripping program. The Government Leader has indicated that the loan that they would provide to Curragh has to be secured by first-charge security, ahead of the banks. The Government Leader is shaking his head. Is it his understanding that this is not the case?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: When we put forward the offer of the $5 million, we asked for a first-charge security but we were prepared to look at anything else they would put forward for security. They have not come back to us with anything.

Mr. McDonald: So now we see that the first charge, which was not negotiable before, is now negotiable. What forms of security is the government willing to accept that would allow them the ability to go ahead with the loan to permit the stripping program to go ahead, jobs to be had and the economy to be saved?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: As I said, the $5 million has been negotiable. We said that in the emergency debate back on April 5. I clarified it again in answer to a question from the Member for Faro on April 6. I have it in Hansard here. The fact remains that we are prepared to look at anything the company is prepared to offer for security.

Mr. McDonald: I will ask the question again: what is the government prepared to accept as security for the $5 million loan guarantee?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: We are prepared to accept anything that would be reasonable. I am sure the company has a better idea of what is not encumbered that they could put up for security. The company should know better than we do what they have that is unencumbered, especially a company that has $220 million worth of debt.

Question re: Polarettes Gymnastic Club facility

Mrs. Firth: I have a question for the Minister of Education regarding the Polarettes Gymnastic Club facility, or the third gym at the Jeckell School. It was the position of the previous government that this organization pay its own operating and maintenance costs and that no money would be identified in the capital budget for the project. The new government has agreed to pay the O&M costs and has identified $50,000 in the capital budget for this project. I would like to ask the Minister what other new arrangements have been negotiated into the deal between the club and the new government?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There has been no deal signed or negotiated between the club and government. There is an understanding that the club will work out a lease arrangement with the Department of Education to lease the facilities.

Mrs. Firth: The club was supposed to tender its own project previously. Is the Department of Government Services going to tender that project for the club now?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The Department of Government Services will be tendering the project and managing the project for the Department of Education.

Mrs. Firth: It is part of another new deal.

The club was to provide $75,000 cash toward the project and have a joint-use agreement. Now, the plan is to have a new lease agreement for the group to pay the money over time. Could the Minister tell us the details of this new arrangement?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The agreement we have with the club is that the club will come up with $75,000 cash by way of lease or a loan. Whichever way they do it, they will pay $75,000 toward that project.

Question re: Polarettes Gymnastic Club facility

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister table the contents of the new lease agreement that is being arranged, so we can find out whether it is a loan they are getting, or whether they are going to pay it over time?

We have now established that this is a very different project than was originally planned, and many Yukoners have expressed objections to me about the way this deal was arranged, the precedents being set, and the unfairness of the whole deal.

Exactly how much is the government going to now spend in total, supporting this project?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I believe the total amount is about $425,000. There is $300,000 from the CDF and $75,000 from the club, but I will have to get the exact figures for the Member. I can get back to the Member with that.

Mrs. Firth: I would like the Minister to get back. There is $300,000 from the community development fund, $50,000 in capital costs, Government Services’ cost and time tendering the project and, if they are paying the $75,000 over time, that is going to also incur some costs to government.

In this time of restraint, would the Minister reconsider the government’s position regarding this issue and make it a requirement that they go back to the previous commitments made regarding the project?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: No, we will not go back to the previous commitments. Earlier in questions on this matter, I tabled two letters, one from the Liberal Party and one from the New Democratic Party, who were aware of this particular facility and supported it. It involves about 300 children in the Yukon Territory, it frees a gym that is one of the busiest in the territory, and I think it is a worthwhile project. If it comes in under budget, and we tender it, the project will go ahead.

Mrs. Firth: It would be interesting to see if the party supports the new project, because it is not at all what it was originally intended to be. Could the Minister provide to this House a detailed account of the complete new deal by tomorrow afternoon?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I would be happy to provide the information the Member requires: the total amount of the buildings and the cost of the new gym. I will provide that information as soon as I can although I am not certain that I can provide it by tomorrow.

Question re: Capital budget, recoveries

Mr. Cable: In Whitehorse Star last week there was a report on the capital budget. The Deputy Minister of Finance was quoted saying that of the $129 million capital budget, $85 million of that is recoverable and that that money can be spent even if the budget does not pass. Is that a view shared by the Government Leader?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I am not certain of the legality of spending the money if the budget is not passed. The amount of $85 million is recoverable and I believe that the government can operate on warrants if the budget is not passed, so there are avenues open.

Mr. Cable: The Deputy Minister of Finance refers to the Financial Administration Act. Perhaps the Government Leader could follow that through. Assuming that the deputy minister is correct and there are 700 jobs at stake under the capital budget, can the Government Leader assure this House that, in view of the Curragh situation, the spending of the capital budget will be accelerated to make up for the possible loss of jobs in Faro?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I believe those actions have already been taken; contracts have been let out. The Minister of Health has said that construction on the hospital facility will be accelerated to keep people working. Those actions have already been taken.

Mr. Cable: I am somewhat alarmed at what is going on in the community as a result of the Faro situation. Is the Government Leader prepared to strike an all-party committee of this House to deal with the Faro situation and deal with the economy as a whole? There is a whole world out there that does not really relate to what is going on in this House, and they are concerned.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: There is no doubt that there are some concerns about the economy right now. Whether one could solve that by striking an all-party committee of the Legislature, I am not sure.

Question re: Whitehorse water and sewer facility

Ms. Moorcroft: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services about the four million litres of sewage effluent a day that comes out of Porter Creek and, for the last day or so, has gone into the Yukon River.

The Minister is the MLA for Lake Laberge. He has constituents who live downstream and use the river water. Some of them use it for drinking water. What steps are environmental or public health authorities taking to advise residents in the Minister’s riding, downstream from Porter Creek, to not use the water?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The Member opposite is fully aware of the newspaper articles and radio media attention. I am not sure if environmental health has done anything more than the warnings that we have heard on the media.

Ms. Moorcroft: We must recognize that not everyone is necessarily aware of the problem. Are any officials from the Minister’s department going out to the area to post notices and talk directly to the people?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: No.

Ms. Moorcroft: Several million litres of raw sewage has been dumped into the Yukon River. I would like to ask the Minister why he has not acted and what steps his department is taking to assist the City of Whitehorse to deal with this environmental emergency? Has the city requested any help and is Community and Transportation Services offering any?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The Member opposite should be aware that this is totally a municipal responsibility, and it is also a responsibility of the federal government through their environmental health people.

Question re: Land claims, land selection within Whitehorse

Mr. McDonald: I have a question for the Government Leader. Yesterday, the Government Leader indicated that he felt that land selections made by the Kwanlin Dun First Nation were not balanced - he refused to define what he meant by that - and that until they were balanced, negotiations over community land selections would not proceed. Can the Government Leader indicate what provisions there are in the UFA that give the Yukon government the unilateral right to reject the land selections without negotiation?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: It was not only the territorial negotiators who were not happy with the map; the federal negotiators did not like it either. They both asked the Kwanlin Dun to go back to have another look at the issue.

Mr. McDonald: I understood there to be three parties at the negotiations, including the First Nation. I will ask the Government Leader again: what gives the Government of the Yukon the unilateral right to reject those land selections without ever discussing the selections with the First Nations directly?

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: The maps were discussed with the First Nations. They said that they had great concerns that the maps were not balanced enough to make a valid basis for negotiations. They were concerned about negotiations breaking down. The fact remains that there was a memorandum of understanding that the selection of land should be balanced and there could be great difficulty in finalizing land selections, especially in the Whitehorse area. All parties have to work together to accomplish that goal. We cannot have interference by a person who pretends to be acting on behalf of the Kwanlin Dun and is giving them advice that makes it very difficult to proceed with negotiations.

Mr. McDonald: This appears to be a personal vendetta against Pat Joe, who is the land claims coordinator for the Kwanlin Dun.

The Government Leader knows that First Nations have selected lands that may be used for Whitehorse sewage treatment. He said that he wanted them transferred to the city unencumbered. He also said that they would negotiate the matter with the First Nations. Given that there has been no communication with Kwanlin Dun over the last few months, including today, according to the land claims negotiator for Kwanlin Dun, when are these negotiations and discussions supposed to begin?

Mr. Ostashek: I do not know where the Member opposite is getting his information from today - whether it is mole A, or mole B - but the land claims negotiators met with Kwanlin Dun yesterday.

Question re: Land claims, land selection within Whitehorse

Mr. McDonald: Not about sewage treatment.

I must say that I take great offence that communicating with my constituents, which include First Nations members, is seen to be talking with a mole.

With regard to the same subject, I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. The Minister said that any conflict that exists between a First Nation’s land selection and land development proposed by the Department of Community and Transportation Services, would go to the land claims table. As long as the land selection talks are stalled, how will the government live up to its commitment to negotiate land use conflicts with the First Nation?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not exactly sure what the Member opposite’s question was. If he is referring to the Whitehorse sewage lagoon, the Ta’an Kwach’an people were on the committee that selected the type of system and the site and were perfectly aware of the fact that the Yukon government wanted to provide that land to the City of Whitehorse unencumbered.

Mr. McDonald: That is an interesting subject, but I am trying to refer to various land development projects, including residential land development. In speaking with the band today, they indicated that there was no consultation with the bands about land development projects associated with Hillcrest D, Logan and Pineridge. This is somewhat contradictory to what the Minister said.

Will the government commit to real and effective consultation directly with the bands respecting those land development projects?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: It is interesting that the Member opposite brings out his statement that there was no consultation. If he looks back, it was those people who were in government when the plans were made for that particular subdivision.

However, I have checked with our lands people and, in fact, notices were mailed and discussions took place on all of the Granger and Hillcrest D subdivisions.

Mr. McDonald: It is the Yukon Party that is planning to spend $13 million this summer on actual construction work on those projects, not the NDP. My question is: given that the Yukon Electrical Company is planning development work on lands selected by the band near McIntyre, and given that the Minister has said that he thought the selections would not conflict with planned work this summer, how is he going to resolve the obvious conflicts between these development plans and the Kwanlin Dun’s land selections?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am sure the Member opposite, who at one time sat in my office, is quite aware that land development projects take at least three years before construction ever starts.

The current work that is going, and the information concerning it, has been provided to the land claims table where the negotiations should take place.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will proceed to Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS

MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

Clerk: Motion No. 35, standing in the name of Mr. Abel.

Motion No. 35

Speaker: It has been moved by the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in

THAT it is the opinion of this House that trapping is an important part of life in many Yukon communities and that Yukon trappers contribute to both the economic and cultural values of Yukoners’ lifestyles;

THAT this House commends Yukon trappers for their humane and wise use of wildlife resources; and

THAT this House urges the Government of Canada to continue to support the fur industry both within Canada and abroad.

Mr. Abel: There was a time, years ago, when the people of Old Crow could depend on trapping as the main source of their livelihood. Even 10 years ago, 90 percent of the Old Crow people were involved in trapping in some way. Trapping was a traditional activity of our people. We would trap lynx, marten, mink, beaver, wolverine, wolves and other fur-bearing animals. Old Crow had the largest muskrat trapping industry in the Yukon, and maybe all of Canada, for that matter.

Every spring, from March until June, our elders, men, women and children would move to the Old Crow Flats, where each family would have their own specific area for the muskrat trapping season.

In this way, we would make sure our younger people had the opportunity to experience a type of lifestyle that has been a part of the culture and tradition of our ancestors for many years. However, it was more than just following our ancestors and the old ways. It was how we earned our living and provided for our families and respected the land in general.

We did not just trap muskrats. We would also live off the land. We would hunt caribou, moose and fish in the lakes and rivers, rabbits and ptarmigan, and there were always geese and ducks in the spring.

If I were not in this House right now, I would be out on that land and really enjoying myself.

When I was growing up I would go with my family to Old Crow Flats. The school would close between March and July for school holidays in order for us to be out on the land to learn the skills that our fathers handed down to us. It was not really a holiday though, because I would be working with my family.

We would go out by dog team and live in tents - not teepees any more. I had to work hard to survive and learn this type of lifestyle and skills that were handed down to me by my father, who learned those skills from his father.

Every day we had to haul wood to keep our tent warm and to do our cooking and we would melt snow to use as water. We would check our traps every day and bring the fur back to camp to do the skinning and stretching of the animals. We would use the whole animal; for instance, the muskrat is good to eat; it tastes just like chicken. Whatever was left over we would dry for summer to use for dog food. There were always lots of muskrats at Old Crow Flats and there was never a dull moment, because there was always something to do. After the day’s work was over, the children would go and sit with their elders and listen to their stories.

In those days, our people would trap about 70,000 muskrats in one season. We could sell the skins and make enough money to buy the things that we needed.

I know that when we do not trap, muskrat populations build up, causing them to run out of their food supply, and they begin to die off. We are actually helping the muskrats to survive by controlling their numbers.

During the muskrat season we also hunt geese and caribou, as I mentioned before. We would fish so that we could take meat back to our homes for the summer.

In those days, we did not have freezers, so we dried everything. We could go back to Old Crow by boat and go back to school for the rest of the year.

Things have changed since I was a boy. Today, I do not think there are any of our people on Old Crow Flats - I do not think there was even one family on the land for the muskrat season - because the value of the fur is so low now. A lot of people still go out in the bush because they enjoy the lifestyle.

Today, there are no dog teams. Everyone uses snow machines. Things are more expensive and if people cannot make any money by trapping, they do not go.

Some of the men who enjoy being on the land will go out to trap during the winter and spring, but it does not provide them with a secure living. They will sell the skins they get and that will help them pay for some of their expenses. If they are lucky, they might even break even. What is important is that they want to preserve a way of life they enjoy and one that is part of their culture.

There are people like the Vuntut Gwich’in all over the Yukon and right across Canada. In all of the communities, there are people who value the practice of trapping for both economic and cultural reasons. There are people who could make a living for their families if the market for their furs was in better shape than it is now.

Today, we have to convince people that the trapping of animals for their furs is a respectable and honest way to earn a living. The anti-fur people in the United States, in Europe, and even in Canada, have been successful in taking away some of the markets that we have had in the past. If the fur industry is to survive, it must have the help of our territorial and federal governments. There are many organizations and trappers, both native and non-native, who would be happy to help our governments in this campaign.

Canada was built, to begin with, on the fur industry a few hundred years back, but I do not want to go into history - everybody knows it. The benefits of a healthy fur industry would reach out across Canada, especially to all our small communities across Canada’s north.

Mr. Joe: It is with great pride that I rise once again in this House to speak about how important trapping is to the people of the Yukon. A great deal of history goes unsaid. As the Member for Old Crow well knows, history is as important as trapping in the lives of First Nations people. In our tradition, we only say some of these things when we are out on the land.

Our families wait at home for the fur that will keep us warm during the winter.

First Nation people did this long before white people came to our country. The white people came to our land searching for fur. The people of Europe found out that we are right all along - the furs keep us warm.

Our people welcomed the new people from Europe. We taught them where to get the best furs, the best ways to trap, and how to skin animals to keep the best fur. I remember my father used to tell us stories about all the people he taught. He was a good trapper and he was very willing to share his knowledge.

I would like to tell a story about the trading of fur with the Indian people on the coast. This was an important part of us growing as a nation. We exchanged many good things with these people. We exchanged stories and songs. It was an important part of our culture. Even after the white man came here, we traded our fur for tools and for money, with which we could buy things to make our life better. We needed this trade to help our children grow up healthy and strong. They were better off because of the fur trade.

But then things started to go wrong. The same European people decided that they did not like trapping any more. They thought that we hurt the animals and that it was cruel. Take it from me, they did not know what they were talking about. I could take any of these people out to my trapline to show them just what life is like. It is not what they think it is. This is what happens when people talk about things that they do not know about. They make judgments, they tell lies and they hurt people who are just trying to make a living.

I would like to add that it is not just the people in communities who benefit from trapping. Many people here in Whitehorse depend on incomes from trappers to make their living. A trapper buys supplies and has enough money to come into town and buy things. There are still lots of people who are in the business of trapping who depend on it for a major part of their income.

They think that trappers are not able to trap wisely. I would ask the same question of those people who use artificial clothes. Did you think that using oil to make clothes is any healthier? Think about all the pollution that goes into the air and the water in order to make plastic clothes. In my opinion, it is not wise.

So, you see, it is a trade-off, and it is a way of balancing both worlds; therefore, I would like to add my words, once again, in support of this motion. We must do anything we possibly can to make sure that trapping is respected, that our fur continues to keep people warm, and that government works to help this industry.

In closing, when you talk about trapping, it is not an easy life. I have been a trapper myself. Sometimes, I used to trap, come home at 50 degrees below, 40 below, 45 below, and I worked hard for very little. However, this is my life, and I enjoy it very much, even though I did not make that kind of money. I did not mind these kinds of days in my younger days.

Today, you see a different world. You have to force the young people to get out and try to learn the culture.

I want to add one more thing. Even trapping is not worth anything if it gets so bad. I would like to see the government continue with the trapping program to provide training for the young people. This would keep trapping alive for the people of the Yukon.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: It is a great pleasure to be able to follow the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in and the Member for Mayo-Tatchun on this. I can assure the Member for Mayo-Tatchun that as long as I am the Minister of Renewable Resources the trapping program will continue.

It seems that for the past 11 years I have had to speak to this motion every year in the Legislature. It is a motion that should always be brought to the attention of people here, as it is a very important motion for a lot of people. A lot of people in the outside world do not realize the importance of trapping, nor do they care.

Trappers make their own living. As the Member for Mayo-Tatchun said, it is a tough living. They do not make a lot of money but they are happy and that is just as important as money.

The Government of the Yukon supports the trapping community in the Yukon and also across Canada. We recognize the social and traditional values that trapping brings to the aboriginal peoples. We recognize the economic importance of trapping to many small Yukon communities. This obtainable utilization of wildlife affords many Yukoners and other northern Canadians with a unique and cherished lifestyle. All trappers are environmentalists. They recognize the need to use the land and farm the fur sensibly. They are people who carefully follow the seasons. They know the land and its animals, treating both with respect.

The Yukon should be very proud of what has been accomplished by the Department of Renewable Resources regarding their efforts to encourage humane trapping. The department has sponsored trappers, provided education workshops and placed restrictions on the use of steel-jawed leg-hold traps.

New, more humane traps, recommended by the Fur Institute of Canada have been introduced. A trap exchange program has been introduced that will help the trapping community meet this transition.

The new regulations are supported by the Yukon trappers. They are concerned about the image of their industry and the welfare of the animals that they harvest.

The banning of steel-jawed, leg-hold traps has been done in order to comply with a regulation passed by the European Economic Community in 1991. The regulation was prepared by the European Economic Community, as a result of intense lobbying by European organizations opposed to trapping.

Although I do agree there is a need for watchdogs, I feel the energy and dollars could be better spent addressing the millions of starving people on our planet today.

Many of the interest groups so quick to condemn trapping know nothing about the industry, or the Canadian north and its people. These groups are very quick to criticize, but very seldom do they offer any alternatives to those who trap for their livelihood.

Our aboriginal people have been trapping and trading furs for thousands of years and to them this is an irreplaceable lifestyle.

To demonstrate our support for the Yukon trapping industry, our government arranges training programs each year through a contribution agreement with the Yukon Trappers Association. These programs help to keep Yukon trappers up to date with the changes in the fur industry, locally, nationally and internationally.

The government also provides financial assistance, both directly and indirectly, to trappers in the territory. Trappers are able to apply for funding assistance for capital projects that enable them to improve their fur harvest capabilities. This funding assistance has been in the form of a grant up to a maximum of 25 percent of the project.

Our government continues to respond to inquiries about trapping in the north. These inquiries are received from interested people all around the world. We take every opportunity to promote wildlife trapping as being economically viable and a wise and sustainable use of our natural resources.

Also, this is a very opportune time for this to happen, as tomorrow morning a fur-bearing animal conference will be starting in the Yukon, which will be attended by people from Alberta, British Columbia, the Northwest Territories and Alaska; on Saturday, the trappers will meet again.

I would say to the Member for Mayo-Tatchun that although we do have these trapping conferences, we attract very few young people. It is up to people like him to get these young people to attend these events.

We cannot teach the elders new practices, no matter how we try. The elders know more about trapping than any of our biologists or anyone else, but the young people in today’s world have to use modern traps.

I still say and I will always maintain that the elders should be left alone to lead their lives the way that they want, but the young people have to use modern trapping methods, not the elders.

I urge you to transmit this motion, when it is passed, immediately, to the Speaker of the House of Commons in Ottawa. I have made this request a number of times. Although I think we have put the message across, we must keep on continually telling people that this is a way of life and should not go the way of the seal hunt in Newfoundland.

Mr. Cable: I rise in support of the motion of the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in. Trapping is a way of life for many native and non-native persons in the Yukon. For many of our native Yukoners, it is more than an economic pursuit; it is a form of cultural expression. Renewable resource harvesting is also, for First Nations and non-First Nations people alike, a viable and sustainable industry that should be supported.

Research and innovation has changed the trapping industry in recent years, which has done much to alleviate the negative images that have been created about the industry. The development of new trapping techniques and the increasing use of new traps is an example of this change and innovation. The federal government has a role to play in working with organizations, such as the Fur Institute of Canada, in its efforts to improve the image of the industry. There is a role here for our local government, working with the local fur industry, to promote the industry and the associated jobs.

I have no hesitation in supporting the motion.

Mr. Millar: I rise in support of this motion, as well. Although I am not a trapper myself, like the Members for Mayo-Tatchun and Vuntut Gwich’in, I have a number of friends who are trappers. I would like to pass on some concerns that they have related to me over the years and things I have noticed things about the industry on my own, from spending many hours out on traplines with various trappers.

The lifestyles of the people in my riding are mixed. Some of them do it as a main source of income. Some are augmenting other sources of income.

I would also like to say, at this time, that the policies of the umbrella final agreement is that 70 percent of the traplines should be native. In the Klondike, I believe that there is only 30 percent native and 70 percent “other” ownership of traplines. I mention this only because I know it is a concern of everyone involved in the Klondike riding.

There is a 25-year phase-in period for this to happen, so the people should not get too excited and start to panic about it being incorrect; I believe that over a 25-year period it will correct itself.

Education of the public is something we are going to have to continue to work harder at, so that the people will have a better understanding of what the people in the trapping industry are doing with regard to humane trapping techniques. One way to do this may be to put trapping displays in the visitor reception centres in the communities. The local trapping community in Dawson is currently talking about the possibility of doing just that.

What would be involved in these displays? They could have some of the old type of traps shown alongside the new traps and maybe some of the animals themselves could be on display - something of interest that would attract the tourists’ attention so they would come to look and maybe learn a little bit more about the industry.

I believe that if tourists were able to see the positive things that are going on and the difficulties we have experienced in meeting some of the regulations pertaining to trapping, they would have a better appreciation of the industry. For example, trappers are required to check their trapline every three days or so; it is almost impossible to do this on some lines in the Yukon, because it is such a large territory and the lines are so big, without taking into consideration the possibility of bad weather or other unforeseen circumstances.

Another positive thing they should be aware of is the trap trade-in program, which has already been mentioned a couple of times here today, where a trapper takes in a couple of his old traps and gets a new one. We must let people who come into the territory know that we are doing everything we can to be as humane as possible so that they can take that information back home with them. One hopes that by spreading this by word of mouth, which seems to be one of the most efficient ways to get tourists into the territory, they will come up with a better and more positive outlook on the industry.

We must encourage the Canadian government to get the facts of the trapping industry in the Yukon to the people in Europe and other areas, who do not understand the reality of trapping in the Canadian north.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I am rising in support of the motion before us from the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in. As others have said before me, this is not the first time that we have had to deal with this motion. As long as this industry is threatened by the anti-trapping movement, this will not be the last either.

The Member for Vuntut Gwich’in talked about lifestyle. The trapping industry is not only a livelihood, but it is, like the Member said, a lifestyle. I have had the opportunity to go out on several traplines in my life in the Yukon. One trapline that I went out on several years ago was in Old Crow. I had the rare opportunity that some would have to go up to Old Crow Flats in the spring of the year and go ‘ratting. I can assure you that it is a very unique experience.

On May 1, there are almost 24 hours of daylight in that area. You do all your trapping and all your travelling between about seven o’clock at night and six o’clock in the morning. The rest of the time it is so mild out that the snow is too soft and you cannot travel. I was amazed at the families who were out there on Crow Flats, that had the experience in the spring.

One of the things that was discouraging to me, and I expressed some concern about it, was how that there were so few families going out to Crow Flats, from previous years. The reason for that mostly is the price of furs. It just was not worthwhile any more. Many of these people who carried on this tradition had no other means of income. The only way they could really go to Crow Flats in the spring of the year to trap, would be if the fur prices were high enough  so that they could make enough money to pay for the gas, food and other things they would need to go out on the trapline. In the last few years, the price of ‘rats has been very low. It has been more of a lifestyle rather than a living for most of these people who have gone out in that area.

The Minister of Renewable Resources talked about the timeliness of this motion. I think it is very timely, with the conference being held here in the next couple of days, as well as the trappers’ annual general meeting coming up on the weekend. I mentioned earlier that this is the sort of motion that we have dealt with before, but I think it is one that we are going to have to continue to deal with, year after year after year, simply to send the message out to people involved about the concern we have over the lifestyle and over the industry. I can assure you that the “antis”, the people who are against trapping, are not going to stop until they wipe the industry out, as they did the seal industry.

These people who are lobbying against the fur industry now are not just against the fur industry. That is where all Yukoners should be concerned. Although some Yukoners may not be trappers in their lives, they may go hunting from time to time, they may fish from time to time, and they may use the outdoors. The people who are driving the anti-fur movement are the type of people who are what I call preservationists, or environmental terrorists, who, one day, want to eliminate all those kinds of activities. Trapping is just one step along the way to destroying a lifestyle that many of us here in the Yukon have, love and enjoy, year in and year out.

All Canadians should be aware of how trapping led to the discovery of Canada. Many of the highways and corridors we have for transportation today were corridors established by the trapping industry by way of trading or just travelling from one area to another. Even today, when we are building new roads, we look to the mountain passes, the rivers, the mountain valleys and the routes the old trappers used to travel in working on their traplines, as well as getting their goods to market.

One of the areas where we could probably do a little more is one the Member for Kluane has talked about, which is the area of educating our young people of the value of trapping. We do some things now in our Yukon schools. The curriculum division works cooperatively with the Council for Yukon Indians to develop some appropriate materials to acquaint students with First Nations cultures, and trapping is a component of these kits.

We could do more, though. We have a program in Yukon schools now called Project Wild, which has a trapping component in it, and that is something we could emphasize. The young children are sometimes very easily influenced by pictures or sensationalism, and the anti-trapping/anti-hunting people are very good at sensationalizing these areas.

Another thing that we have to point out to people and educate them about is the very active work that has been carried out in the past and is still being carried out today to develop more humane trapping methods. I think that there have been great strides made in that area.

Another area in which I think people are a bit misled is the value of trapping to the environment. As the Member for Old Crow said, the trapping industry harvests the surplus and sometimes prevents the cycling of the animals. To use his example in the Old Crow area, when the muskrats were not trapped they still seemed to plunge in population, due to possible depletion of their habitat. When they were trapped in the area on a regular basis, there seemed to be a stable number of muskrats in the area.

As we gain more knowledge about the environment and wildlife we understand that there are sustainable wildlife populations and that we do have the ability to manage those populations with more modern data. We should be able to do that and be able to get our message out to those who are advocating doing away with this particular industry.

Something else that I think is important, and that I have mentioned in the past in speeches in this House, are the trappers themselves, the people who are out in the bush trapping. Many times, these individuals are the pulse of the environment. They are the people who identify the problems, sometimes before our biologists do, and certainly before many city dwellers do, and recognize that there are problems in the environment.

The trappers are the people who have had their advice ignored sometimes in the past, but I am pleased to say that recently, this government, in particular the current Minister of Renewable Resources, has taken a great deal of time and effort to sit down with First Nations people, trappers, people living in the bush and others to listen to their concerns about what is going on in the bush.

It is about time that these people have been listened to. Many of these people have spent their whole life living in the bush and they do know what is going on in the bush. They do not have to get the valuable information that they pass on to us from books. Much of the information consists of common sense and understanding of what is going on in the bush. These people are a very good pulse on the current environment; we should be listening to them.

The anti-trapping industry is a very well-organized group. They are not going to quit. Currently, fur prices, as I understand it, are starting to edge their way up again. However, as soon as the market starts to pick up, the anti-fur groups will be there, speaking out loudly and strongly. They will produce their obscene videos of fur coats and blood, and paint a very unrealistic and untrue picture of what the trapping industry is all about.

We have to work hard every year and not just pass this motion and forget about it, thinking we have done our job. We have to continue to promote the trapping industry and educate people in the Yukon, Ottawa and throughout the world that it is a very viable industry and supports a necessary lifestyle in the north and throughout Canada.

I would urge all Members in the House to support the motion before us by the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in.

Mr. Harding: I certainly have no problem supporting the motion introduced by the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in. I recognize the contribution of the trapping industry to both our economic and cultural values in the territory. I know that it is an important, free way of earning a living, depending upon a renewable resource. I feel it has a real role to play in the territory.

Given wise use and conservation, we can always continue to have a viable trapping industry, but it is important that elected representatives also demonstrate their support for the industry because of the very strong lobbies against fur.

We have become a society of groups with many different interests. We no longer have to join a political party to express our views and have some influence over how things are done. We simply have to join a special-interest group with a specific direction and beliefs and lobby the government through those groups, without taking a lot of ownership for what is asked for. The point is made on the basis of one’s particular interest and how it weighs against others.

In the system we have moved away from, if one wanted some influence over government, it would be necessary to move into a party and gain a position of influence from within the party. However, things have changed. I am not saying it is better or worse, but the system of joining groups - particularly anti-trapping and anti-fur groups - has really made the fight more difficult for trappers in terms of the abuse they take and the price they can get for their furs. It is their livelihood - a sustainable livelihood - which provides food and shelter and all the things they need.

So it is very important that elected people declare where they are coming from. I know the Member of Parliament for the Yukon is also very much in favour of the trapping industry and has declared her support. We are in support of the trapping industry and believe in it. I know people in my community - people who have perhaps come from other places in Canada - have come to the Yukon as a way of not really supplementing their income but more because they like the lifestyle and they like having that independent way of doing things.

They have taken on trapping; they have used the trapping courses here in the Yukon to get a knowledge of it, which makes them more self-sufficient. They have also been really active in hunter-education programs and that type of thing. I think people in my community want that feeling of being able to be self-sufficient, being able to use the land, to live off the land. To help them in that respect they have become quite interested in trapping and a lot of them now are doing things along those lines - working with the trappers in the area and investigating the possibility of running their own lines and that type of thing.

So I really have absolutely no problem supporting this motion and I think it is important; it has been done before in this Legislature, but it is important that we do make our position clear and throw our support behind the trappers and their association, which is a special interest group, just as the anti- groups are. They certainly have their lobby groups and they certainly come to government and present their side of the story. Unfortunately, some of the anti- groups have moved to very sensationalized tactics to make their cases, which I do not think are to the benefit of anyone for cutting to the bone to get to the real facts surrounding how the industry works and what exactly is under way in terms of looking at more humane ways to harvest the animals or the renewable resource.

Unfortunately, there is an argument to be made by some against trapping, and I can respect the argument. I do not agree with it, but I can respect the right they have to make it. It is important that we support the lobbies of the trapping association here in the Yukon and of the trappers, because it is very important to our way of life here in the territory and our cultural and economic way of life.

It is incumbent upon elected people to state their position clearly, and that is why I will support this motion.

Hon. Mr. Devries: I would like to speak in support of this motion. Having been the local fur trader in Watson Lake for many years, I have had a hands-on association with many of the Yukon trappers. I was also the local fur buyer for the Yukon Trappers Association. I will just explain the process.

I would have a separate in-trust bank account for the Yukon trappers, and we would have a couple of thousand dollars in there. When the trappers brought furs in, we would give them a 50 percent to 60-percent advance for the furs they brought in. Then the trappers would go to the grocery store and pick up their grubstake for the next month and have the opportunity to go back into the bush. Most of the auctions take place in March, and this would be too late for them to get the cash.

In this process, the trappers made a choice of which auction the furs were to be sent to. At that time, there were three - the Ontario Trappers Association, the one in Vancouver, and one in the Hudson Bay in Edmonton. My understanding is that the only one left is the one in Vancouver, although I am not certain of that.

The records of these transactions would be sent to the Yukon Trappers Association headquarters in Whitehorse, and the deductions for the advances would be sent to the various auction houses. These would be made immediately upon the sale of the furs, and one cheque would be sent to the Yukon Trappers Association, and what was left would be sent to the trapper.

Also at this auction house, the furs were cleaned; they were put into huge drums of sawdust and fluffed up. They would be graded, and this was the way they would be presented to the furriers. The furriers would buy a certain quantity of a certain grade. They would pay a certain percentage fee to the auction house for all this work, and one percent of the total proceeds would be sent to the Canada Fur Council, which was used in an attempt to counteract the anti-trapping movement.

It was during those days, as the local fur buyer and a taxidermist, that I developed a deep appreciation for the trappers and their way of life. Quite often, although a transaction might only take five minutes, you would spend an hour or more just listening to all the stories they had to tell. They may have been walking along and gone through the ice, or their snowmobile broke through the ice, and they had to spend many hours trying to get it out. One of them told me the story of where he was just zipping along on a fairly high plateau. If you have been out in the outdoors a lot, you will know that a lot of these potholes tend to be full of water in the fall, then they freeze over and dry out during the winter. He was zipping across one of these potholes, and the next thing he knew, his snowmobile was right inside a garage. It just dropped through the ice. He went about 100 feet under the ice before he managed to stop and realize what was going on.

I imagine that it was probably only about 10 feet. Those stories always get so stretched out and that is what makes them so enjoyable.

From the economic and employment sense, trapping is winter employment for many people in the rural communities. It contributes substantially to the Yukon economy.

I was kind of alarmed today when I received some of the statistics indicating that fur production for 1992 amounted to approximately $535,000. I think back to the mid-1980s when I was running my shop there; the annual production was approximately $1 million. Obviously, the recession and the anti-trapping movement has certainly had a tremendous impact on the trappers and their ability to make at least a part-time living from this.

Another thing that is very important in the trapping process is proper skinning. It can increase the value of pelts by almost 100 percent. If it is not skinned properly, you might get zero for it. If it is skinned properly, you might get $100 for that same pelt. The trappers really appreciate the work done by Renewable Resources and the assistance they have given them over the years through trappers workshops, which have helped them to improve skinning techniques. It is sad to say that there are still many furs, even today, that still come through the Yukon Trappers Association where the trappers could get substantially more money for them, if they would take the time to attend some of these workshops and learn to do it properly.

During my time as a local trader, many of the trappers brought in old traps to trade in order to purchase the leg-hold traps. They would trade these in. At that time, they had to purchase the Conibears and they would get a small amount for the old traps, which were mostly sold to novelty stands and stuff like that, or sold to tourists as items of interest or souvenirs.

The fact that trappers during the mid-1980s were bringing in the leg-hold traps and purchasing the Conibears at substantial cost to themselves, showed that they were dedicated to seeing the industry be preserved. They were quite aware of the fact that the “antis” were creating problems for them then.

Also, the proper stretching board patterns were very popular with the trappers. Again, the skinning is one point, but furs also have to be stretched properly. This way they get the premium dollar for their furs that they have worked so hard for.

Trapping is the bread and butter for many, and also a favoured lifestyle for many of the semi-retired. Trapping is also an important source of revenue for the local aircraft charter companies. It is during the off-season that charters would normally cater to the outfitters and to the various mining companies. Trappers help them get just enough money to maintain their airplanes over the winter.

I would like to compliment our former Speaker, Mr. Don Taylor, whom we all know very well. It would be nice if Don could hear this at his cabin at Stewart Lake - although I understand he is in town right now, so perhaps he is listening. Faithfully, at 7:00 every night, with his SBX radio, he checks on every trapper he can reach. This normally takes an hour and, once in a while, it frustrates somebody trying to get on the air, because when Don is on there, nobody interrupts.

The trappers normally tell him what cabin they are going to be at, and that they are taking their radio with them. He checks with them to see that they have arrived safely. For those who just go out trapping for the day, he knows approximately when they should be back. If he calls their cabin, and there is no answer, then he either gets in contact with another trapper to check on them, or he notifies the proper authorities, who would check to see what is happening. There are a lot of trappers and prospectors who owe their lives to Don’s work, who does this because he loves the Yukon and the Yukon has been good to him. He feels that, in this way, he can still carry out some of the service that he has dedicated a huge part of his life to, as the former Member for Watson Lake.

Most trappers love their way of life, and they do their best to manage this resource. It is unfortunate that there is always one or two who exploit and claim-jump. There are a few bad eggs out there and, unfortunately, they make it very difficult for the ones who do their best to manage the resource properly.

Both from the economic and historical perspective, trapping is a very important part of the Yukon. I am sure that the government on this side will do everything to make sure that this way of life will continue in the long term.

Mr. McDonald: I would like to lend my voice in support of this motion, because I know that it is important for the Legislature to speak with one voice in support of the trapping industry, which has suffered the slings and arrows - I do not know how far I want to keep that quote going - and has had many an outrageous fortune perpetrated by the anti-fur lobbyists. It is a perennial motion; it is an annual event that we conduct to demonstrate our support for the industry.

Many people in my new riding of McIntyre-Takhini are active trappers, and certainly many of the people in the Mayo area whom I represented for approximately one decade in the Legislature, are at least part-time trappers and receive a part of their income from trapping activity.

As some Members have mentioned already, trapping has not only been a form of income, it has also been a healthy way of life. I think that after a lifetime of trapping, you could be almost as fit as a working, underground miner - I stress “working” underground miner.

The NDP in the Legislature have been long-time supporters of the industry, as has been demonstrated on many occasions in the past. I think the most active and aggressive supporter of the industry was David Porter, who was the Minister of Renewable Resources for a period of time - as you know - who I think showed the kind of imagination and determination in providing for, not only financial assistance to various pro-trapping groups, but also the moral incentives to the industry and to international groups that really formed the first - and in some respects, final - line of defence for the industry in the face of an international anti-trapping lobby.

I was quite impressed with Mr. Porter’s aggressive approach, not only in the Legislature, but privately in discussions with caucus members and also in public, to ensure that there was general awareness among legislators for the needs of the industry in a time of crisis.

I was impressed by his understanding of the role that the Indigenous Survival International and the Fur Bearers Institute played in acting as effective lobbyists for trappers. I was also impressed by his determination that Yukon groups were able to participate in international campaigns to ensure that the word was out from the territory in support of the industry.

The Department of Education has played a significant role as well. The Minister of Education has indicated a few of the things that have taken place in the past. It is not an exhaustive list, but it gave flavour to some of the initiatives that have been taken in the classroom through curriculum development and by individual teachers to make our children more aware of all sides of the issue, particularly a respect for the traditional lifestyle practiced by the First Nations people in the territory. A significant proportion of that is, of course, trapping.

They have done such a good job that my own son, who participated in snaring an animal and a class project associated with skinning the animal, had to be seated on my knee for a bit when he started looking longingly at the family pets, so I could tell him that there is a difference between domestic animals and those that frequent the wilderness.

The children are the least susceptible to the alarmists and one-sided propagandists who do not want to see the full picture shown to the general public. They are less susceptible to intellectually one-sided arguments. Consequently, the next generation of leaders in the territory and adult citizens will have a greater awareness than before of the impact of the industry on the economy, lifestyle and culture of our territory.

I will close by simply saying that I support the motion. I thank the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in for bringing it to the Legislature. I would indicate to him that he follows in a long line of Members who have been charged with the responsibility of raising this matter in the Legislature and seeking unanimous consent. Through his wise words, he has ensured that at least all the speakers who have spoken so far respect the interests of the trapping industry. He has encouraged them to speak with one voice once again in support of trapping.

I support the motion and encourage other Members to do the same.

Ms. Moorcroft: We have heard the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in, and the Member for Mayo-Tatchun, speak about the lifestyle they were raised in, a lifestyle that included trapping as an important part of their economic and cultural heritage. Although I do not have their history behind me, I rise to express my support for this motion to recognize that trapping is an important part of life in many Yukon communities.

Yukon trappers continue to contribute to both the economic and cultural values of Yukon communities and lifestyles. Countless generations of First Nations people who have lived on this land have relied on the fur industry for their livelihood and their cultural survival. They still live here, and they still rely on trapping for that survival.

The previous NDP administration worked with the Fur Institute of Canada and the group Indigenous Survival International, to lobby nationally and internationally for support of trappers and the fur industry. As well, the Yukon Member of Parliament and the national leader of the New Democratic Party has contributed a great deal of her energies to support trappers and travelled around the world, lobbying on behalf of the fur industry.

The Education Act acknowledges the First Nations’ prior existence and heritage in the land we call Yukon. Children in Yukon schools are now taught awareness of traditional lifestyles in the classrooms. Part of the Land, Part of the Water, by Yukon aboriginal people, with anthropologist Catherine McClelland, is another example of an initiative by the previous administration to increase the knowledge of Yukon heritage, including the trapping industry.

As the Member for Mayo-Tatchun stated, furs kept people warm, and there was a fur trade between the interior Athapaskan people and coastal tribes long before the white fur traders arrived in the Yukon.

The Minister of Education spoke about how trapping led to the discovery of Canada. In a sense, that is true. The Minister of Education seems to be still learning that the aboriginal population, which has lived on the land for centuries, did have a culture and a fur trade before Russian and European traders arrived and explored the waterways and mountain passes, previously known and travelled by our First Nations people.

Trapping is a longstanding, respectable and honest way of making a living. Trappers depend directly on a healthy and continuing population of animals in order to trap, hunt and fish. For their own future, Yukon trappers practice humane and wise use of wildlife resources. Trapping has been a key component of the territory’s economy. It was thriving before the gold rush.

We must encourage this renewable resource industry and educate anti-fur lobbyists to respect a way of life a number of people depend upon. For many rural northern native communities, there is no alternative. Trapping contributes to the economic and social well-being of many Yukoners and to the communities in which they live.

In closing, I support this motion, which calls for this House to urge the Government of Canada to continue to support the fur industry, both within Canada and abroad.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: I rise today to support this motion, which has been brought forth by my colleague, the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in. While Members speaking before me said that this motion has been debated in this House many times before and, as the Member for McIntyre-Takhini put it, it is almost an annual event, I believe that it is a very important annual event. It is important that this Legislature stay on the record for supporting an industry that contributes to Yukon society and to the social fabric of the Yukon, as well as to the economic fabric of the Yukon.

Many years ago, prior to my coming to the Yukon, I had the opportunity to participate in the trapping industry for some five or six years. As Members in this House are aware, my past history was as an outfitter. Living that type of lifestyle left me with winters during which I would have to go out and seek employment. After doing that for a few years, I decided to purchase a trapline, so I could continue to have the freedom and the ability to make my own way in society without being dependent on having to go to work for wages in the wintertime. It was a very good way for me to supplement my outfitting income, so I could provide for my family for the entire 12 months of the year.

I just want to go on record and say that, because of my great love for the outdoors, I found trapping to be a very satisfying way of making a living and promoting a lifestyle. The area where I was trapping had a lot of marten. Perhaps some of the Members in this House are not old enough to remember, but, before the Second World War, during the hungry 1930s and, prior to that, in the 1920s, marten was a very valuable animal. I can remember hearing stories from old trappers who were getting $80 to $100 a pelt for marten during the hungry 1930s.

Trapping was a way to make a living when there was not much else for people to do in those days. There are many great stories about national park wardens in Alberta who used to supplement their income with a few marten hides in the wintertime, while they were out on snowshoe patrol - that was the only way they had of getting around.

I am thankful that I had the opportunity to participate in this type of a lifestyle for a very short time in my life, facing the challenges of having no one to depend upon but yourself, your own wits and your own skills for survival, and your ability to obtain furs so that you could supplement your income.

I never did have the opportunity to trap muskrats and I think I will have to take up the offer of my friend and colleague, the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in, to go to the Old Crow Flats someday and participate in trapping muskrats. I did trap beaver, but I never did trap muskrat. During caucus this morning the Member for Old Crow was showing us how to call muskrats and I think that is quite unique. Mr. Speaker, the Member also told me that he was going to use his muskrat call in Committee of the Whole to call the House to order, so maybe we will have the opportunity to hear that this evening.

I believe that trapping gives people the ability to have the freedom of that lifestyle to be totally dependent upon themselves for their survival and their livelihood. I think that it helps very much to build character in people.

The Hon. Member for Watson Lake spoke of a former Speaker in this House, Mr. Don Taylor, and his radio network that provides a service to trappers throughout the Yukon, parts of British Columbia and the Northwest Territories. As I said, I have never trapped in the Yukon, but I have listened to Mr. Taylor on the single side-band radio while I was at my place in Burwash during the winter. I did not start up the light plant, so I did not have a telephone, but I did have the single side-band radio and I would listen to his total dedication of keeping track of people hundreds and hundreds of miles apart in the wilderness. Yet, through his efforts, they were a very close-knit community where people looked after each other.

It is great to have tools, such as single side-band radios, available to us. When I was trapping in Alberta, we did not have those luxuries and we were pretty well totally dependent upon our ourselves. If something happened, the only time that you would have someone come to look for you is if you said you were going to be out on a certain day and you were not; then your family would get worried and send help for you.

Also, what I enjoyed about the years that I participated in the trapping industry was being able to share it with my children. My children were very small during that time; my second daughter was about seven years old. On the weekends I would take the children out on snow machines to go trapping. We would check the trapline on the way into the cabin and pick up whatever marten that we had in the traps, get to the cabin and let them thaw out. The next evening we would skin them and the children would help. I cannot forget how enthused they were about learning to help with those chores and how interested they were. I found that very rewarding.

I believe that, as I said earlier, we have to continue to go on record in support of the trapping industry in the Yukon. It has not only economic value, but cultural value for First Nations and non-First Nations people - people who have grown up in that lifestyle. It takes a tremendous amount of effort to live that lifestyle and the financial rewards are small. The quality of life is something fantastic, to be out there in the modern days on a snow machine on a beautiful snowy day. One can hear the sounds of winter when one turns off the snow machine. It is a fantastic feeling and is part of my life that I will never forget.

It is hard work for dedicated trappers. They ask nothing except for the ability to sell those furs to make enough to continue their lifestyle. There are few people, if any, who are going to get rich by being a trapper, but they can supplement their income and have a very good lifestyle. I believe that some of the outfitters today in the Yukon are still involved in trapping in the winter to supplement their incomes.

We are always going to have the environmentalists and anti-trappers beating down the doors and putting up roadblocks to try and kill this lifestyle, just as they have killed the sealing industry in Newfoundland. They will continue to work hard to try and kill the trapping industry as a whole. We must continue to help educate the people of the world that trapping can be and is being done in a humane manner and has much to add to the fabric of society as a whole.

As Minister responsible for intergovernmental relations, I would like to speak to the part of the motion that urges the Government of Canada to contribute support to the fur industry, both within Canada and abroad. As the Member for Kluane urged, Mr. Speaker, I also request that you forward this motion to the Speaker of the Canadian Legislature. We must get our message through to the federal people so that they can continue their fight abroad to tear down the barriers being placed before the trapping industry in the Yukon.

The Yukon government has long supported the Canadian fur industry. The Canadian government, for its part, through the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, has participated in lobbying efforts on behalf of the fur trade and indigenous survival, both nationally and internationally. The External Affairs Department has provided financial support for the lobbying efforts of groups, such as the Fur Institute of Canada. I believe that this House should encourage the federal government in these endeavours. I urge you to forward this motion to the federal House of Commons. It is crucial that this level of political and operational support from the federal government be extended to ensure that international markets for products from indigenous activities, such as trapping, be maintained and even expanded. The issue of available markets for fur must also be incorporated in the federal government’s dealings on the Free Trade Agreement and fair trade discussions through the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trades and other international trade forums.

Markets in Europe and Asia provide exciting possibilities for the Yukon fur industry. National support to groups such as Indigenous Survival International and the Fur Institute of Canada is important to ensure that international markets are cultivated. Motions such as this will go very far in supporting these groups to get their message out throughout the world.

As the Member for Kluane said, this is a timely motion because of the meetings that are taking place in Whitehorse tomorrow. I would just like to urge all Members of this House to support this motion here today.

Ms. Joe: I was not on the list but I chose to speak in support of this motion. The Member for Old Crow is not here, but I would like to let him know that I appreciated his version of the history of trapping in the Yukon. It gives this House a lot more information about what happened long before the gold rush.

I have been in the Yukon for almost 28 years. Most people know that I grew up in southern British Columbia on a reserve. There was an annual run of salmon through a creek that ran through the reserve. Consequently, I was not knowledgeable about trapping and hunting until I came to the Yukon

My young years were spent eating a lot of fish, watching it being dried and salted. We had orchards with lots of fruit, wild berries, beef and garden vegetables. People used to say that aboriginal people from that part of the country had it easy because the weather was warm and we did not have to do the hard work to make a living by trapping and hunting as they did in the northern part of the country.

I came to the Yukon in 1965 and recognized, through my friends, that there was a different way of life up here and that trapping and hunting was a very important part of it.

When I was with the Yukon Association of Non-Status Indians, one of the things we did, which a lot of people do not know about, was to establish the Yukon Trappers Association in 1973. Two individuals who worked on that program were from YANSI. Anyone who has been in the Yukon for a long time will remember Ted Geddes and Ollie Dixon. They travelled through the communities buying furs. I remember one time when they came back from Old Crow and said that for about two weeks after they were dreaming about ‘rats, because they counted thousands of them. They travelled throughout the country buying and selling furs.

We also had workshops to educate the young aboriginal people about trapping. In 1976, the Yukon Trappers Association became independent, as it is now. I thought that this information was not well known and felt it should be included in part of my speech.

I am in support of this motion. As it has been mentioned in the past, we have supported similar motions in the House. As the Opposition, we introduced a motion to support trapping in the Yukon, and as the Member for McIntyre-Takhini mentioned, it is an annual occurence for us to introduce this motion in the House.

Our party, while in government, of course supported a number of initiatives, implemented different kinds of programs and had money available to promote trapping in the Yukon. Although there are many people who are not supporters of trapping, if one has lived in the Yukon long enough and seen the kind of things that are important to the people of the Yukon, one will recognize and respect that way of life.

One of the things I was aware of many years ago was the loss of many traplines by our aboriginal people in the Yukon and the many ways that people lost their traplines. Because we are all in a good mood today and supporting this, I will not mention some of the underhanded ways by which some of our aboriginal people in the Yukon lost their traplines. I recognize the cultural and economic benefits of trapping in the Yukon. It is a very important part of life and, therefore, our whole party, I am sure, will be supporting it.

Speaker: I would just like to remind the Member for Whitehorse Centre, and in fact all Members, whether they are in the House or not at the present moment, that they should not, in their speeches, refer to the presence or absence of other Members.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would like to go on record in support of the motion by my colleague, the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in, with respect to trapping and its contribution to the economy and culture of the Yukon and Canada.

I have very little to say about the motion. It has been many years since I had anything directly to do with trapping. When I was a young boy in Alberta, I helped my brother, who had a small trapline near our farm. Funds earned from those activities helped with the very existence of that farm. At the time, my family’s lifestyle was not too dissimilar to Mr. Abel’s past experiences. I believe that way of life should be encouraged and protected.

I am tired of listening to the various lobbyists and groups that denounce hunting and trapping, especially as these people are usually ill-informed. However, in any case, I would like to go on record in support of the motion.

Mr. Penikett: I have a short speech here I would like to give in support of this motion. Having expressed my support for the motion, I will now sit down.

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I will not have to speak very long to be able to say that I did not give the shortest speech in the Legislature on this important motion. Of course, I am sure it will enjoy unanimous support in the Legislature.

I listened with great interest to the speeches before mine. I truly enjoyed the speech that the Hon. Member for Vuntut Gwich’in gave in his opening remarks.

The area that I represent in the Legislature has a good many First Nations residents within its boundaries. Many of those people are trappers. They enjoy the lifestyle, but they have fallen on hard times. The income for most of these people from trapping is minimal these days, given the depressed market for furs.

I think this motion is timely. I know the Yukon Trappers Association is meeting soon - this weekend, I think - and I know they will be encouraged to know that, once again, they enjoy the strong support of their elected Members in this place.

Therefore, I support this motion, along with everyone else here, and really do urge the various governments to redouble their efforts in the fight against those lobbyists who are anti-trapping, particularly in Europe, and to do whatever they can to help address the situation, so that fur prices, once again, may move upward and reach a level where this important lifestyle can be maintained by northern residents.

Speaker: If the Member now speaks, he will close debate. Does any other Member wish to be heard?

Mr. Abel: Trapping and hunting are important to a great number of people across Canada. Therefore, I would like to thank all Members of this House for supporting this motion.

When the people of Old Crow, the Vuntut Gwich’in, were selecting lands for the land claims agreement, they were aware that it was important to include those areas like the Old Crow Flats, where our people had hunted and trapped and lived for thousands of years. If there was more of a demand for furs of those animals that are trapped today, there would be more of our people on the land now, and all of the Yukon would benefit from the stronger fur market, because there are trappers in all of our communities in the Yukon.

I would like to close by saying that our territorial and federal governments can help the fur industry in the Yukon, and all across Canada, by encouraging and supporting all the people who are involved in trapping, processing and marketing wild furs.

Motion No. 35 agreed to

Clerk: Motion No. 29, standing in the name of Mr. Millar.

Motion No. 29

Speaker: It has been moved by the Member for Klondike

THAT it is the opinion of this House that the Top of the World Highway should be upgraded and that the Government of Yukon should consider upgrading the existing ferry service and should investigate the feasibility of building a bridge across the Yukon River at Dawson City in order to promote tourism and economic development in the region.

Mr. Millar: Tourism is a very important industry to the Yukon as a whole, and to Dawson in particular. Tourism is the number two industry in the Yukon. Today it is worth about $47 million, or about 10 percent of the territory’s economy. The recently released interim Dawson economic profile indicates that tourism accounts for 10 percent of person years of employment, 15 percent of the payroll and about five percent of purchases in the Dawson area. My wish is to enhance these numbers. The way that I want to do it is to start with long-term planning now, for capital projects in the future.

I am very much aware of the budgetary constraints of the present government at this time, but the government’s mandate is to provide services to help private industry thrive. The government has a vital role to play in helping to provide the necessary infrastructure to allow the growth of tourism to take place. This would greatly benefit Dawson, as well as the taxpayers of this territory, by reducing, and ultimately eliminating, our dependence on government money to support our local economy.

When the time comes, I would like to see all the plans in place for developing a year-round highway loop with our Alaskan neighbours. At present, the Top of the World Highway on the Canadian side, known as the Taylor Highway, on the Alaska side, is open only to summer traffic. The road intersects with the Alaska Highway at Tetlin Junction on the U.S. side, and is easy access for travelers who intersect with other highways to Fairbanks and Anchorage.

One reason that it would be impossible to have the road open year-round at this time is because the government ferry at Dawson City can only run across the Yukon River during summer months. The ice bridge is suitable for traffic for three or four months of the year only. That means that there are two in-between seasons, during the winter freeze-up and the spring break-up, when there is no method for vehicle traffic to cross the river. This problem was identified many years ago, and has been discussed over those years. Nothing has been done to date.

In 1966, when Clinton Creek asbestos mine was coming on stream, the company and the town wanted a bridge, but it was believed by the decision makers to be a waste of capital project money, since the mine was only predicted to be operational for 10 years.

There was no vision in those days of what a bridge and a highway could do for the economy of this territory. Tourism was not heavily promoted at that time.

Times have changed. Dawson, the tourist mecca of the Yukon, would benefit greatly from year-round trade in our town, if the road was opened during the winter.

As you well know, Dawson is a town that has captured the flavour of the turn of the century. It is a charming town to live in or to visit. In the summer time, Dawson is teeming with pleasure visitors. July is the peak month, and we need to have more tourists come earlier in June and later in August, the month when the tourist traffic slows down considerably, before the town battens down for the winter.

In the summertime, the hotels and restaurants are booked and busy, but what about those other months of the year, known as the “shoulder season”? Dawson would like to boost that season until there is a full-fledged, year-round trade.

During the winter, Dawson does get some traffic because of winter sports tournaments such as hockey and curling, and competitions such as dog sled racing. However, we could greatly increase the numbers if a highway loop was available for year-round travel.

At present, when our Alaskan neighbours come to visit, they must drive the Alaska Highway all the way to Whitehorse and, then, swing down the Klondike Highway and drive the approximately 330 miles to Dawson. Either that or they can fly; both alternatives are fairly expensive, and driving is quite time consuming.

I am in no way proposing that Dawson’s tourist traffic be increased with a determinant lessening of tourist traffic from Beaver Creek to Whitehorse. What I envision is that travellers travel by road to see new and different scenery and to have a variety of experience along the way.

Tourists want to see as much of the Yukon as they can in the time allotted to them. Some tourists have nothing but time, but many are travelling during a holiday break from their jobs, and they only have a few weeks to get from their home to the Yukon and back again, in time to return to their employment.

The loop would offer travellers another way to come into Dawson by one route, and the Alaska Highway offers another route for going home, or vice versa.

Several years ago, the Alaska Highway washed out in places and the road was closed. There were ones who knew of another route to Alaska through Dawson; however, there were many travellers who turned back before they reached the Yukon because they did not realize there was another transportation corridor available to them. Dawson was not prepared for all the traffic that did come at that one time.

The ordinary, regular tourist traffic can line up for six hours waiting to cross the river by ferry, because the rubber-tire traffic all want to leave early in the morning to be at the border when the U.S. customs office opens. It would be of great benefit if we could get the customs office hours extended so that there would not be this long lineup.

The ferry lineups, the year the Alaska Highway washed out, were backlogged for two or three days. These lineups create severe inconveniences to our visitors and local residents, who are also dependent upon the ferry. The ferry problem leaves a negative impression. As these tourists travel down the road, they may pass on negative comments that discourage other travellers from risking a similar experience. Many of these tourists are on a tightly structured schedule, and they cannot afford any delays.

Two centennial anniversaries are approaching: the discovery of gold in 1996 and the gold rush celebration in 1998. There is a projected increase in people who will visit Dawson. The bottleneck at the ferry will be an even more acute problem. We have to address it now.

For longer range planning, we have to look at constructing a bridge across the major gateway. The hard surfacing plan for the U.S. plan of the Taylor Highway is certainly a good start on upgrading the loop.

We must look at sitting down with the State of Alaska to explore ideas about a joint venture effort to upgrade the entire road from Tetlin Junction to Dawson. There is tremendous potential to draw more visitors into the Klondike from Alaska, or those en route to Alaska, especially at times known as shoulder seasons. A coordinated effort between Yukon and Alaska would create attractive options, and just think of the spinoff benefits this would have, not only to the people of the Yukon by bringing more traffic through Dawson and to other communities en route to Whitehorse, but it would also be a boon for all the people who live in the bush communities and settlements along the way, such as Chicken and Eagle.

I think it is time to have a far-reaching vision that extends into the future as a definite plan of where this government and the tourist industry want to be 20 or even 30 years from now, but we must address the ferry lineup problem immediately and without delay.

Mr. Penikett: I am not quite sure why I was asked to lead off from our side in this debate. Perhaps it is because I am a former Dawson resident, or perhaps it is because I once worked on the bridge in Dawson City. In any case, I am pleased to do so.

As everybody in the House knows, the Top of the World Highway provides an important link between the Yukon and our American neighbours to the west. Of course, improving the condition of the road would facilitate transportation and commerce between the two jurisdictions.

The Top of the World Highway is not only a commercial and transportation link, but it also serves as a beautiful scenic experience for tourists. I can well remember the frequent trips I made on that road during the days I worked at Clinton Creek, when it was an operating mine, and my parents lived in Dawson City. Members of my family used to commute between those two locations.

The motion is an interesting one, in terms of the way it is worded. It suggests that the Top of the World Highway should be upgraded, that the Government of the Yukon should consider upgrading the existing ferry service, and should investigate the feasibility of building a bridge across the river at Dawson City.

Of course, I am not sure how all of these pieces fit together. If one investigates the feasibility of building a bridge across the river, presumably, it might not be immediately necessary if the ferry service were improved.

I know, from my own conversations with people in Dawson City, that there is not a unanimous feeling in that town about any of the alternatives to improve the transportation of people and goods across the river, especially in the summer.

There are many roads in the territory that need work. There are many traffic problems in the summer during the height of the tourist season and they all require attention.

I guess the demonstration of the new government’s commitment would be found in the proposed budget, which we will be talking about in the next few days and weeks. There is some commitment to the upgrading of the Top of World Highway in the budget, and that is fine.

Various ideas have been mooted about for improving the ferry service. There was an experiment last summer, about which I heard mixed reviews, where the government attempted to respond to an initiative by the Mayor of Dawson, and I think some members from the Chamber of Commerce, to schedule ferry traffic. I am not sure that that was a wholly successful experiment.

The language about the building of the bridge, which is about investigating the feasibility, is very soft language. It is my own view that the only bridge we may see in this century is the bridge on which I worked some 20 years ago, which was the ice bridge that was used to operate in the days of Clinton Creek. That was a necessary activity, but not entirely reliable.

If I may say in passing, I was once sent down from Clinton Creek to work on the ice bridge in October one year and I was told that I would be there for six weeks. I think we finally got ice across the river and a bridge functioning around February 23. This was after someone - whose name I will not mention, because they are still around in this community - made a decision to send trucks across the ice on December 23, the day before the highway superintendent said it was okay to do so. Several trucks went across, including some White Pass trucks, and then a couple of Cassiar Asbestos trucks actually went through the ice. I recall that event causing a fair amount of consternation at the time, demonstrating nothing more than that an ice bridge is not entirely reliable and certainly not a satisfactory solution.

I have been around long enough to remember several decades ago the former Member of Parliament for the Yukon, Erik Nielsen, promising a bridge across the river at Dawson City. He was, at one time, Minister of Public Works; he was Deputy Prime Minister of Canada. He was, since he was elected to office when Mr. Diefenbaker was first in office, a man respected by a gentlemen on the other side, someone who they claimed had lots of vision; for all that vision, the bridge did not happen. I suspect, given the financial health of the federal and territorial governments, it is not something that is likely to happen in the next couple of years.

I do not dismiss the idea out of hand. Obviously, Dawson is not only a mining centre but it is a tourism centre, and if the Government Leader has his way, it may even evolve further into a regional centre when the decentralization starts anew in a few years from now.

It is obvious, particularly in the summer, that the situation there is not entirely addressed by the existing ferry system and that we should look at the possibility of building a bridge, somewhere down the road. For that reason, I think our caucus can have no objection to this motion, and would therefore be voting for it.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would just like to go on record as supporting the motion that the Top of the World Highway should be upgraded and that the government should consider upgrading the existing ferry service.

Although I certainly support the motion, and agree that the ferry service should be upgraded, there are some problems that we do not have a lot of control over.

The ferry service does operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week on the Yukon River in the summer months. The problem is that the peak period runs from about 7:30 in the morning until 11:00 in the morning. What happens is, a lot of the placer miners on the far side of the river are trying to get one way or the other at that time, and the bus tours generally leave the City of Dawson sometime after 7:30 in the morning, and before 11:00. The Member opposite mentioned an initiative that was tried last year when the bus tours were given priority between 5:00 in the morning and 7:00 in the morning, in an attempt to spread out the traffic. Although this was partially successful, the problem was that the U.S. customs and the Canada customs opened at 9:00 in the morning. Even though the buses were willing to leave a little bit earlier, they had to pile up and wait at customs until they opened up. There are some considerable problems with upgrading the service, not the least being that we could look at building an additional ferry, and putting it on for the peak period, approximated eight hours a day for about three months during the summer.

The cost for an additional ferry is estimated at $2.72 million or $3.2 million. It is quite a large capital cost, and there is an estimated O&M cost of $200,000 per season.

The other possibility is, naturally, as the Member mentioned - perhaps we should be blaming our former Prime Minister, Mr. Diefenbaker, on his vision that did not go quite far enough - a bridge across the river at Dawson. However, again, a bridge is estimated at a cost of approximately $18 million. With the existing traffic, it does not make a lot of economic sense. I think the people from Dawson, as well as the Member from Dawson, could probably argue with some success that, if there was a bridge, a better ferry service or if customs ran longer hours, we could probably get more traffic on that route. It is a very pretty drive and is certainly worthwhile.

Having said that, I would like to go on record that I fully support the motion.

Mr. McDonald: I will be relatively brief. In speaking in favour of the motion, I find it acceptable for a number of reasons. Certainly, we must acknowledge the fact that the road services from Whitehorse north along the Klondike Highway constitute one of the major tourism corridors in the territory. Anything done to upgrade that corridor would serve the tourism industry well.

The upgrading of ferry service has been a longstanding request from some people in Dawson over the last decade or more. I know, from conversations with Mayor Peter Jenkins, that he has always shown a fondness for bridge building, not in terms of his good relationship with the Government of the Yukon necessarily, but for traversing the Yukon River at Dawson and for easier access to the Top of the World Highway. While I recognize that the investigation of bridge building will require some funds, at this stage we should be taking a long-term view of this transportation corridor and doing our homework toward some improvement, knowing that there will be improvements at one time or another.

I would like to make one short comment about Mr. Diefenbaker’s vision on behalf of the Mayo residents. The vision should have involved highway development from Mayo north to the Arctic Circle to connect with Dawson. I know there are some people like Mrs. Jean Gordon and Wilf Gordon, who would never forgive me if I had been talking about road access up north and did not mention the absolute need for better road access from the Mayo district north to the Arctic Circle to conform with part of the circle route that central Yukon residents talk about when they envisage increased tourism traffic in the area.

I know that I have spent more hours talking about that with the former Member of the Legislature, Mrs. Gordon, on that subject than any other constituent on any other subject. I feel that she deserves a plug, even though she has not been in the Legislature for some time and even though it is not entirely relevant to better ferry service at Dawson.

I support the motion and urge others to do the same.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I, too, rise in support of this motion. The Leader of the Official Opposition talked about the content of the motion, and I could not agree more that the Top of the World Highway needs and should get some upgrading. In this budget there is some money for the upgrading of that particular highway. One of the things that I think is extremely important in the tourism industry and people are becoming more aware of is the need for loop roads - for tourists to go up one way and return another.

The Top of the World Highway is becoming one of the well-known trails for people to travel when they come to Yukon and Alaska. They can come up the Alaska Highway and back through Dawson or go up through Dawson and return through the beautiful Kluane area.

The Member for Mayo mentioned the vision of Mayo becoming part of that trail. They are looking at the highways in that area, and I can assure the Member that I, too, share some of the concerns over the tourism potential of the Mayo area.

In the Tourism budget, if we ever get to it, we can talk about the passport program that will continue. It was a great benefit to the museum in Keno City and the Mayo area. When and if we get to the budget, the Member will see that that program is continuing. The people in Mayo have done a great deal of work over the last few years and I commend the Member from that area, as well as those individuals who persevered. They have a very nice kiosk at Stewart Crossing as well as a lot of signs along the highway identifying the Silver Trails Tourism Association and the work they are doing. They have done a fine job in that area and we hope to see an increase in tourism traffic in that area in the future.

The other part of the motion talks about upgrading the existing ferry service. That part of the motion addresses a more immediate need  and that is to look at an arrangement that would improve the access in and out of Dawson during peak times. There have to be some innovative ideas come forward on how we can improve that ferry service.

The Member from Dawson pointed out very clearly that the problem is not just the ferry. The problem is customs as well, and we are meeting with customs officials and have had some meetings with Alaskan officials regarding the hours of American customs; we are hopeful that we can come to a resolution of this matter where, possibly, the customs office may open a little earlier in the season. We are hoping we can get some agreement from the federal officials, both American and Canadian, on this matter because it is key to moving the traffic through that area.

The last item in the motion is to examine or investigate the feasibility of building a bridge across the Yukon River at Dawson City and it would be irresponsible for us to just insist that we build a bridge across the river there. This is something we should look at in a very serious manner. I suppose the bridge would have cost us a lot less money in 1966 if we had done it then, and it would probably still be standing today, as many of the bridges in the Yukon are. But in these times of tight economic finances, one has to be very careful where and how one spends funds. A feasibility study to investigate the potential of putting a bridge in at Dawson City is the right route to go.

The road to Dawson City and over the Top of the World Highway is, as someone said here today, one of the most beautiful drives in the Yukon. I have had the opportunity of taking the trip myself, so I know of what I speak when I talk about the fantastic and beautiful scenery on a clear day, which can be seen when driving along that road and over the summit. It is just spectacular.

Upgrading that road is essential. We are now entering the decade of the anniversaries of 1996 and 1998. Much of the focus of those celebrations is going to centre around Dawson City and the gold fields and the gold rush. In the next few years, with the advertising and promotion that the Department of Tourism, the Anniversaries Commission and the State of Alaska are going to do will really create a focus on Dawson City. Dawson City and the area wants to be ready to handle the tourists as they come through.

You cannot do that overnight. These roads cannot all be improved in one year. They have to be phased in so as not to disrupt the heavy traffic that is already there in the summer months. We have to plan this over two or three years and do ongoing upgrading of that particular road. I think this motion is extremely timely for the Government of the Yukon to be considering the upgrading and improvements of the Top of the World Highway. I think that in 1996 and 1998 we will find that road will be one of the most travelled roads in the territory, with the tourists who come through Yukon.

The other thing that I see happening is the increase in the bus tour traffic. Again, the bus tours are looking for loop routes. They do not like to take their tourists through the same area time and time again. They like to go up one road, loop around and go back through a totally different scenic area and see some different attractions. The Dawson loop and the Top of the World Highway is becoming increasingly more attractive to the buses.

We have to ensure that the roads in this area are safe for those travellers. All we have to have is one accident on that road involving a bus and it could create a lot of problems for other big bus companies that are travelling in that area. I know that we had an accident on that road several years ago, but we want to make sure that the road meets the best standards.

As well, as the Member for Mayo mentioned, the road now from Whitehorse to Dawson City is a fantastic highway; it is a great road. A few years ago, I can remember it taking six or seven hours to get to Dawson City. Now you can get there a lot faster than that; I would not like to predict how fast because I know some individuals get there a lot faster than others. That road is in great shape now.

That highway is in very good shape. Mind you, there are other highways in the Yukon that we have to consider. Of course, the Alaska Highway is having a lot of work done this year, and that will tie in with the Top of the World Highway over the next two to three years.

The Member for Whitehorse Centre may not be interested in this particular motion, but I think that it is an important motion. Many of the tourists who come to the territory over the next few years are going to go back and tell their friends how good or how bad our roads are. Whether that Member likes it or not, it will affect people in her constituency, if they are in the tourism business.

This is a very positive motion, and I believe that it is a motion that the government is moving on now.

The motion will also send a message to our American friends in Alaska. We talked to them a few weeks ago about their side of the highway, and we are going to be discussing that motion in a moment, so I will not get into that now. However, passing this motion today will be a demonstration from our Legislature that we are committed to improving our side of the highway for the 1996 and 1998 celebrations, and I urge all Members of the House to support this very worthwhile motion put forward by the Member for Dawson.

Mr. Harding: I am going to have a hard time following that powerful speech from the Minister of Tourism, but I will try my best.

I support the Top of the World Highway being upgraded, and I also support the upgrading of other important highways in the Yukon, such as the Robert Campbell Highway where, up until the last couple of weeks, we had the only operating mine in the territory. That highway is also important to the economy and should also be upgraded, not cut, as has been proposed in the budget, by 72 percent on the capital side and 17 percent on the O&M side. As we await the much and often distributed $10 million from the federal government, we will see what remains of the budget for upgrading the Robert Campbell Highway.

I have no problem with the consideration for upgrading existing ferry service. I do not know exactly what is being proposed - if it is looking at scheduling and what tourists have to say about it - but I could certainly support that.

I could support the investigation into, and the feasibility of, building a bridge across the Yukon River at Dawson City. I would caution the government to watch the monies that are being spent on the investigation of the feasibility. Perhaps they could hire a cheaper and more productive company than Burns Fry to do that, or Micon. I think we could perhaps save a few tax dollars if we hire some people who work on a more cost-efficient basis.

On the basis of the motion, I can support the investigation into the feasibility of a bridge.

Hon. Mr. Ostashek: After that powerful speech, there were many Members on this side anxious to jump up to see if we could keep up with the admirable speech. The Member for Whitehorse Centre seems to have no interest at all in this motion. I sometimes wonder if there is nobody in her riding who participates in the tourism industry.

This is an important motion, whether the Member for Whitehorse Centre thinks so or not. We have to a provide decent infrastructure for the tourism industry in the Yukon if we want to promote it. Having been involved in the tourism industry for many years and listening to the tourists who stopped in the Kluane area after travelling over the Top of the World Highway, many of them spoke about how beautiful an area it would be if it had a decent road. Some of them said that they would not go back over that way again or recommend it to others until the highway was upgraded. I know we have to dedicate our resources to it, especially with the centennial celebrations coming up in the next four or five years.

There is no doubt in my mind, as the Minister of Tourism also said, that the traffic on that highway will increase tremendously as a