Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, May 31, 1993 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. At this time, we will proceed with Prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed with the Order Paper.

Introduction of Visitors.

Are there any Returns or Documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I have some legislative returns.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I have two legislative returns.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?

Petitions.

Introduction of Bills.

Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers.

Are there any Notices of Motion?

Are there any Statements by Ministers?

This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Forestry transfer

Ms. Moorcroft: I have a question for the Minister of Renewable Resources regarding the forestry transfer agreement.

According to a recent news release from the Public Service Alliance of Canada, the forest resources program of Northern Affairs has recently downgraded a number of critical positions from full-time to seasonal status, a management decision that has spurred a number of complaints by employees and which may substantially affect the resources available to the program. Is the Minister aware of these program changes and are they proceeding with his approval as a result of negotiations?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: The agreement is going along as usual and we are aware that there is some discontent but nothing has come to us at the negotiating table.

Ms. Moorcroft: Management of forest resources on Yukon public lands is a considerable responsibility and it is imperative that the Yukon program be an adequate one when this government takes over responsibility for forestry. In view of the fact that recent management decisions have led to the filing of more than 35 grievances by many employees of the forestry program, many of them relating to the dollar resources attached to positions in the program, will the Minister consider placing transfer discussions on hold pending their resolution and a confirmation of the resources that would be attached to each of the positions in the event of a transfer?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: No, I see no reason for that at the present time. We have had nothing brought to us and we have an agreement in principle; as long as that is honoured, we will continue the way we have been.

Ms. Moorcroft: Given that the Kaska of southeast Yukon hold the only active timber harvesting agreement in the territory, and given both the Yukon Party’s political commitment to consult with First Nations on devolution matters and the consultation obligations imposed by the umbrella final agreement, formally signed on Saturday, how has the Minister involved Yukon First Nations in forestry transfer negotiations to date, and what guarantees of formal involvement in the continuing negotiations is he prepared to offer?

Mr. Brewster: We carried on the same negotiations as the former government did with the CYI and we have continually sent them information. Although they do not show up at meetings, we have forwarded them information on what goes on at those meetings.

Question re: Northern Accord, First Nation involvement

Ms. Joe: On Tuesday of last week, the Government Leader told this House that he felt comfortable going ahead with the signing of the Northern Accord, because he and the Hon. Tom Siddon said that they had fulfilled its obligations under the umbrella final agreement.

The Council for Yukon Indians was strongly opposed to this, as was the Government Leader of the Northwest Territories, and, I understand, other aboriginal groups in the north.

I would like to ask the Minister of Economic Development if he could explain the contradiction between his party’s stated election commitment to consult with First Nations on devolution matters and its unwillingness to deal with First Nations concerned in this transfer of federal management to the territory?

Hon. Mr. Devries: I have available a substantial listing of various attempts to consult that were made and also a list of various consultations that have taken place from 1988 to May of 1993. I would be prepared to table this information, if that would answer the Member’s questions.

Our legal advisors advised us that everything we were obligated to do has been done.

Ms. Joe: It is very easy to stand here after the fact and make up all kinds of excuses as to why things were not done in the proper manner.

I am not sure if the Minister consulted with the Council for Yukon Indians to find out whether or not they can confirm this information; I would hope that he has.

There will be further negotiations about the Northern Accord and the management of Yukon’s oil and gas. I would like to ask the Minister whether or not he can tell me what future role the Yukon’s First Nations will have in any further negotiations regarding off-shore oil and gas management.

Hon. Mr. Devries: In any subsequent negotiations as a result of the Northern Accord, the First Nations will be consulted on an ongoing basis and kept informed of where the negotiations are, since they are a large part of this agreement. I can assure the Member that they will be participants in the policy development, et cetera.

Ms. Joe: He also has to assure the people that they will be involved in any further negotiations. It is almost like water off a duck’s back, when they respond as if there was no problem; indeed, there is. I would like to ask the Minister whether he can give assurance to the Yukon’s First Nations that they will consult before the fact, and not after a done deal in regard to any further negotiations regarding off-shore management of oil and gas.

Hon. Mr. Devries: There will be interim committees established, both for the on-shore and off-shore management. These committees will be obligated to fully consult with the First Nations. I feel that should take care of the matter.

Question re: Seniors’ housing

Mr. Cable: I have a question for the Minister responsible for the Yukon Housing Corporation relating to housing for senior citizens. I have been told that there are over 30 seniors on a waiting list for housing in Whitehorse, and that only six seniors have been placed in Whitehorse housing units over the past 16 months, due to a low turnover rate. What is the Minister doing to expand the number of units available to the growing number of senior citizens?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, would the Member mind repeating the question?

Mr. Cable: I am told there are over 30 seniors on a waiting list for housing in Whitehorse, and that only six seniors have been placed in Whitehorse housing units over the past 16 months, due to a low turnover rate. What is the Minister doing to expand the number of units available to the growing number of senior citizens?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I thank the Member opposite for his two questions. Does the second one count as a supplementary?

The Member opposite is absolutely correct. There are over 30 seniors, and I believe the number six is approximate. We hope the Gateway Housing unit, which will involve 39 units, will help to alleviate the problem. In social housing throughout the territory, we have implemented rent geared to income, which will free up about 50 social housing units, but not necessarily for seniors.

Mr. Cable: I understand there is a rent supplement program, which may have been what the Minister was just talking about, which permits the Yukon Housing Corporation to rent premises from private owners, then turn them over to the various housing corporations for subleasing to people who are in need. Is the Minister prepared to approve more rentals of private units, in order to alleviate what appears to be an extreme need on the part of seniors?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: For many of these programs, the funding actually comes from the federal government. I believe we have used our maximum allotment for the previous year; however, we will certainly look at whatever programs are available because, as the Member opposite has pointed out, it is nearly a critical situation.

Mr. Cable: I am told that senior citizens who apply for Whitehorse housing units are refused information, as a matter of policy, on where they stand on the waiting list. I would like to know whether the Minister agrees with this withholding of information from the public and senior citizens?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not aware of that particular complaint, but I do know that the waiting list can change. If someone was number four on the waiting list and a person came with more of a need than the first four people, then the new person could end up as number one on the list. I was not aware that they were not giving out the list, but that may be the reason why.

Question re: Infrastructure funding from the federal government

Mr. McDonald: This question is to the Minister of Economic Development. The government first announced in February that the federal government was going to provide an extra $10 million grant to develop roads and power sources. Since then, we have been told that this fund definitely will, and definitly will not, fund energy supply projects and that the fund will provide a significant contribution toward a series of road reconstruction projects that total in the hundreds of millions of dollars. When are we going to find out precisely how the money will be spent and what the money will be spent on. In addition, who in the government has the credibility to give us information that we can depend on?

Hon. Mr. Devries: As the Member knows, the Government Leader is at a meeting in Ottawa now and my understanding is that, when he gets back, he should have more information on exactly where the negotiations are at. We have been assured that $10 million will be coming to us, but the final negotiations on exactly what is what, or how it will be spent, have not been concluded yet.

Mr. McDonald: That is part of the problem. In Dawson this past weekend, the Government Leader announced again that the program was just around the corner and cited a list of projects the miners could depend on that would be funded out of this infrastructure fund that would promote the mining industry.

Why is the government continuing to announce this program over and over again when it is not clear in its own mind what the priorities are and whether they will even get the money in the final analysis?

Hon. Mr. Devries: Again, as I mentioned earlier, in that the final negotiations have not been concluded yet, we have been assured that the three projects the Government Leader mentioned are acceptable, and we would like to try and broaden the parameters slightly, but the final decision on that has not been made.

Mr. McDonald: In Dawson over the weekend, the Government Leader announced that the South Canol Road would be added to the list of projects previously announced in the House. Can the Minister indicate why the government would initiate construction of this road when they made a point, in the main estimates, of reducing the maintenance funding, stating that this road was of a low priority?

Hon. Mr. Devries: I do not recall the South Canol Road being mentioned. I would suggest that the Member talk to the Government Leader about that. I know that the other three projects - the Top of the World, the South Campbell and the Freegold - were mentioned. I think someone is possibly mixing up the South Canol and the South Campbell.

Question re: Curragh Inc., financial assistance

Mr. Harding: I have a question for the Minister of Economic Development regarding a speech given by the Government Leader in Dawson City. In this speech, the government made reference to the head of a mining company who, and I quote, “does very well mining governments.” I presume he was referring to Curragh Inc.

Could the Minister explain what the government means by these comments, and on which policies regarding loan guarantee negotiations with Curragh Inc. these comments reflect?

Hon. Mr. Devries: The Member himself, it seems to me, has indicated that the mine in Faro could not survive without government assistance. We could say that the CEO of Curragh Inc. is mining governments in that sense. I basically would have been referring to the overall deal. He is trying to use government whenever possible to assist in the survival of the company.

Mr. Harding: I think that the response demonstrates the amount of negativity, as do the comments, that we face from the government.

I would like to ask the Minister what the point of Frame-bashing is when the territory is facing an economic disaster? Is the Minister saying that the Faro mine has been a bad government investment for the territory since the 1986 reopening?

Hon. Mr. Devries: As the Member well knows, the Government Leader himself just went to Korea. Much of that trip was based on seeking to ensure that Curragh Inc. would survive. We certainly believe that Curragh Inc., up to this point, has been of terrific benefit to the territory’s economy.

Mr. Harding: Unfortunately, going to Korea does not necessarily equate to the successful conclusion of the loan guarantee negotiations.

I would like to ask the Minister why the government is seemingly so enthusiastic about mines, such as Casino, which may or may not open in this century, depending on multi-million dollars of infrastructure investment funding by the government, yet are so down on helping to reopen the real mines in Faro and Watson Lake?

Hon. Mr. Devries: We are not down on trying to help reopen the mines in Faro and Watson Lake. We have indicated that there was a $5 million loan guarantee on the table and that there is a $34 million loan guarantee available providing certain conditions are met. We want to see these mines reopen and see them continue over the long term, but not at any price.

Question re: Child welfare agreements

Ms. Moorcroft: Last week, the Minister of Health and Social Services referred to the child abuse protocol and child welfare agreements reached with the Ross River Dene Council and the Kaska Tribal Council. I would like to ask the Minister if the federal government is a party to these Indian child welfare agreements?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: These are agreements between the Department of Health and Social Services and the First Nation in the one case and the tribal council in the other.

Ms. Moorcroft: Perhaps the Minister would supply me with copies of the agreements that he has signed to date.

I would like to know if this is an interim arrangement, or does it signal a preimplementation of self-government agreements?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: These are not self-government agreements or implementation of same. These are protocols that have been entered into between our department, the Kaska Tribal Council and the Ross River Dene Council for the benefit of people living in those communities.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Champagne/Aishihik First Nation has been administering their own child welfare for several years now, as a pilot project; in signing these new agreements, has the territorial government agreed to assume costs that traditionally and legally are the responsibility of the federal government?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: No, we have not. We have been very careful with the issues surrounding the responsibilities of the federal government, because we are only too aware of the delight that the federal government seems to take in being able to back out of their responsibilities at any opportune moment.

Question re: Handicapped, access to public buildings

Ms. Moorcroft: Today is the start of the National Access Awareness Week, which is designed to bring attention to the needs of people with disabilities in our society. Last Thursday, I asked the Minister of Health and Social Services to join with me regarding a request to spend a day in a wheelchair. The Minister said that he would have to take this under advisement. My question is whether or not the advice that he has received suggests to him that this would be a good idea?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The only advice that I have received has been from me and from my conscience. It is my decision not to partake in this.

Ms. Moorcroft: I was going to ask the Minister if he would be willing to perform his duties as an MLA from a wheelchair, because I am certainly prepared to take up that challenge. Is the Minister saying that he cannot take the time, or suffer the inconvenience of going about in a wheelchair, when many people in this country suffer from inaccessible buildings? This is a problem that has prompted the awareness week.

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I fully support the awareness week. I fully support the rights of handicapped people to reasonably safe access to locations such as this. The issue, with respect, is whether or not I will be accepting a challenge to spend some working days in a wheelchair and my answer is, very simply, no.

Ms. Moorcroft: Perhaps the Minister could tell us why he is not prepared to do that?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: Perhaps I could, but I do not think that I will.

Question re: Extended care facility, staffing

Mrs. Firth: My question is for the Minister responsible for Health and Social Services. The government is in the process of receiving applications for the various positions to staff the extended care facility. The closing date for these competitions is June 4. Since it involves the participation of three departments - the Public Service Commission, the Department of Health and Social Services, and the extended care facility administration - I would like to ask the Minister who specifically is going to be doing the hiring for these positions?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I am not sure if I understand the question, but the Department of Health and Social Services will be hiring, if that is what she is asking.

Mrs. Firth: I would like to know who has the final say about who will be hired. Perhaps the Minister could tell us who is on the interview committee, and then he may be able to understand the question better.

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I do not have that information at my fingertips, but I will certainly undertake to bring it back to the Member.

Mrs. Firth: Has the Minister made any inquiries as to how the competitions are going, or whether applications are coming in? If he does not even know who is on the interview committee, what kind of interest is he taking in whether or not the facility is going to be staffed?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I do not follow some of these things day to day or on a blow-by-blow basis. My understanding to date is that there has been a large number of applicants for the relatively unskilled positions and very few for the skilled positions; this is causing some concern to the department.

Question re: Extended care facility, staffing

Mrs. Firth: I look forward to the Minister getting a briefing from his deputy minister and bringing the information back to us on that question.

I have a follow-up question for him regarding the same issue of the extended care facility. At the information workshops on employment opportunities, one of the Minister’s officials indicated that 10 and one-half person years would be transferred from Macaulay Lodge to the new extended care facility. Are positions being transferred from Macaulay Lodge to the new extended care facility? If so, why?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: We can discuss the answer to the previous question when we get into line-by-line debate. I am sure we will be pleased to answer detailed questions such as that this afternoon during the budget debate.

With respect to the issue of positions being transferred from Macaulay Lodge to the continuing care facility, it simply means that the care for those clients will be moved from one facility to the other, and Macaulay Lodge will be going back to another part of the spectrum that it has traditionally served - a home for seniors.

Mrs. Firth: Does that mean that if there are going to be 10 and one-half person years transferred to the new facility, they are going to be closing beds at Macaulay Lodge? I do not see how they can operate the facility with 10 and one-half fewer person years identified in the staff complement.

Are they going to close beds at Macaulay Lodge in order to open the beds at the extended care facility?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: They are going to be shifting functions. As to the exact question of whether or not any beds will be closed or whether all beds will be closed in that regard at Macaulay, or whether it means a net reduction of beds, I will have to answer the Member later this afternoon.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister not stand up and enunciate the policy? He made a big announcement about the extended care facility opening; surely he can stand up and give us the details of the transaction. Are there going to be beds closed at Macaulay Lodge so that the extended care facility can open, or not?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: Extended care beds will be closed; there will not be extended care beds in Macaulay Lodge.

Question re: l’Ecole Emilie Tremblay

Mr. McDonald: I have a question for the Minister of Education. L’association des Franco-Yukonnais has expressed concern in a news release that a new federal initiative to promote school governance worth $112 million did not include the Yukon. The association also believes that the Yukon Department of Education failed to make an aggressive representation to the Secretary of State to be involved in that program. Can the Minister indicate whether or not the department did make a pitch for federal funds prior to the program’s announcement?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I will have to get back to the Member on the details of his question about whether the department actually made a pitch to the $112 million fund, but I can tell the Member that I recently signed a letter to the federal minister looking for some support for a new school in the territory; we are looking forward to a positive response to it.

Mr. McDonald: Given that the program the Secretary of State just announced involved funding to promote French control of education - meaning French governance or board control - can the Minister indicate whether or not he is prepared to make a request of the federal government to seek funding to assist in the promotion of a French school board if the local association, the French community and the school council desire it?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: If that representation is made to me, I will certainly examine it, but it has not been mentioned to me up until now. I am meeting next with l’Ecole Emilie Tremblay school council but, other than that, there are no meetings set at this time with the other groups representing the French community. If they make some representation on that, I would certainly examine it.

Mr. McDonald: That is about as conclusive a non-decision as one could possibly expect. I am thankful that the Minister will at least examine it. Can the Minister indicate to us whether or not the government has made a decision as to whether or not it will provide a financial contribution toward the construction of a community school, when the time comes for the reconstruction of the education facilities for l’Ecole Emilie Tremblay?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: In answer to the first question, I did mention to the Member that I had sent a letter to the federal government regarding a new school for l’Ecole Emilie Tremblay and I am not really expecting the federal government to pay the whole shot, so if we do build a new school - when we get around to making that decision - I would expect there would be some involvement from the Government of the Yukon.

Question re: Forestry transfer

Mr. Cable: Just a couple of follow-up questions on the forestry transfer for the Minister of Renewable Resources - just clarification. Have the terms of the agreement in principle that was referred to last week in the House been made known to the Council for Yukon Indians for their comment?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I approached them when I first came into office and asked them if they would participate in the matter. They have not shown up to any meeting. We have been sending the information over and they have looked at it, but they have not shown up at any of our meetings.

Mr. Cable: They may not have shown up at any of the meetings but has there been any response in writing, by telephone or orally to the Minister as to their position on the terms of the agreement in principle?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I received a response on Thursday from the chairman of the CYI; they feel that they were not involved in the negotiations from the beginning and that therefore it was not fair.

I must point out that we were not the government when the negotiations started. I have seen the records and the former government did its best to include CYI.

Mr. Cable: On another related matter, has the government definitively decided whether to transfer the staff of the forestry operations to Watson Lake?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: No, we have not.

Question re: Faro, Del Van Gorder School

Mr. Harding: The school council of the Del Van Gorder School sent the Minister of Education a letter expressing concern about the possible loss of quality education in Faro and also maintenance of the school and the equipment; I would like to ask the Minister if there were any problems with the requests made in the letter to Minister and if the requests are attainable?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I just received the letter about one week ago, and I have asked the department to prepare a response.

My sense of it is that nothing will happen at the Faro school with the removal of equipment or anything else, until such time as we have some idea of how many students will be enrolled in the school next year, and what will be needed in that school to service those students.

Mr. Harding: If the Minister does not have the time to respond to a letter sent to him 10 days ago, maybe I should try this: I wrote the Minister over a month ago with some of the same concerns and I have yet to receive a response to that letter.

I would like to ask the Minister when he will respond with firm commitments for the Del Van Gorder School and answer the questions that I put to him over a month ago.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I think that I just did respond.

Mr. Harding: Usually, a letter receives a written response, and I hope that will be forthcoming from the Minister once they clean up their act with regard to communications upstairs.

I would like to ask if the Minister will agree to meet with the Del Van Gorder School council to discuss these very important issues at a mutually agreeable time and place.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes. Early in our term I travelled to many schools. I certainly did not get to all the schools, and as soon as we get out of session - if we ever get out of session - my intent is to travel to all of the other schools, and Faro is certainly on my list of schools that I would like to visit.

Question re: Northwestel rate increases

Ms. Joe: My question is for the Minister responsible for Community and Transportation Services regarding telephone rate increases.

Northwestel has recently sent its customers an outline of proposed rate increases, which, if approved by the CRTC, will take effect on July 1 of this year and January 1, 1994. I would like to ask if the government supports the application as submitted by Northwestel - whichever Minister would like to answer?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We will be filing an intervention to the CRTC in opposition to those increases.

Ms. Joe: If the proposal is approved, there will be other increases that will affect different groups in town - businesses and individuals. I would like to ask the Minister when they intend to file that intervention, and whether or not there has been an analysis done of the rate increase proposal?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not exactly sure when the intervention has to be filed; our communication branch is looking after that. Yes, we are doing a financial analysis of the increases.

Ms. Joe: I wonder if the Minister could bring back the information to me. The request for the increase is supposed to take place on July 1. That is not very far away. I would ask the Minister to bring back information with regard to the plans for the intervention, when they expect to get results and any other information he might have.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: My understanding is that the increases will go ahead before the CRTC has its hearings - I guess, on an interim basis. I suppose that if it is turned down by the CRTC, there will be some kind of a refund. I am not sure how it works. I will be happy to provide whatever information I have available.

Question re: Faro residents, employment opportunities

Mr. Harding: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. As the Member is aware, unemployment in my community has increased several hundred percent in the last few months. I have a constituent who applied for a job in the Minister’s department for a labourer’s position. My constituent was denied an interview. Does the Minister have a policy within his department for increasing the emphasis on employment in Faro, due to the recent unemployment onslaught?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We have advertised in Faro any jobs we have, and we have also provided information in Faro when contracts are let - highway contracts, such as the Shakwak and Alaska Highway jobs. When they are let, we provide the information about who got the contract, and so on.

Mr. Harding: My constituent was well aware that the job was posted, because that posting was what made him file an application for the job in the first place. That is not the problem. The problem is that my constituent did not even get an interview for the job he applied for.

Could the Minister tell me what the criteria is for determining which candidates will be interviewed?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not exactly sure what criteria the department uses, but I can find that out and bring it back for the Member.

Mr. Harding: It seems like a fairly straightforward, commonsense problem to me. Could the Minister please tell me why an unemployed Faroite with the experience in industry would not even qualify for an interview for a labourer’s position?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not aware of the circumstances surrounding this particular hiring, nor why this particular person was not interviewed, but I will check into it and provide that information to the Member.

Question re: Porter Creek sewage lagoon

Ms. Moorcroft: As the Minister for Community and Transportation Services knows, the Porter Creek sewage lagoon failure last month caused considerable concern to downstream water users about both environmental and health risks. Can the Minister advise on the status of repairs to the damaged lagoon cell and the current character of the effluent from the lagoon complex?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: My understanding of the Porter Creek lagoon is that it only holds sewage for three days, which makes it primary effluent that is being dumped. My understanding is that it is again functional. I am not sure if all the repairs have been completed.

Ms. Moorcroft: If the damaged lagoon cell is only holding sewage for three days, it is not giving it the desired length of time for treatment. Is the Minister aware of recent testing of the effluent from the Porter Creek lagoon? If so, could he provide the House with the results?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I missed the actual technical data that was required.

Speaker: Order please. I will allow the Member to repeat her first supplementary.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Perhaps if the Minister could listen to the question instead of to the advice from the Minister of Education, I would not have to repeat the question. Is the Minister aware of any recent testing of the effluent from the Porter Creek lagoon? If so, could he provide the House with the results?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I believe that the effluent is tested on a regular basis. I believe that I can provide that information to the Member opposite.

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like the Minister to advise whether the testing indicates any need to issue health warnings to downstream users. If so, now that it is tourist season and many unwitting visitors are on the river, will he commit to post such warnings in a manner that will assure that all potential downstream users are aware of possible risks to health?

Speaker: I believe that the question is somewhat hypothetical, but I will allow the Minister to answer it.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The department has posted over 20 signs. The federal Department of Health and Welfare has also posted signs. I believe that everyone living in the Whitehorse area and in the Laberge area is quite aware of it. I believe that people using the river, and/or Lake Laberge, are made quite aware of it as they drive up to the lake. As far as the actual content of the effluent, I would assume that it would be detrimental to someone’s health if they were to drink the water that it is discharged into.

Speaker: Time for Question Period has now elapsed.

Question of Privilege

Mrs. Firth: On a question of privilege, as a Member of this House I feel that I must put my comments on the record as other parties and representatives of this Legislature have done.

I believe the remarks made by the Leader of the Official Opposition on Wednesday, May 26, were a breach of privilege, and I believe the House should debate the following motion:

THAT this House continues to support the longstanding parliamentary principle that the actions of the Speaker cannot be criticized incidentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of a substantive motion.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: On the question of privilege, we on this side were somewhat dismayed by the comments that were made by the Leader of the Opposition respecting the Speaker last Wednesday and it has become, it seems, a bad habit of that Member to attack indefensible people. He has attacked the table officers and bureaucrats who sit beside the Ministers and now he has attacked the Speaker himself. We on this side believe that the Member owes the House an apology and, if an apology is not forthcoming, we should debate this motion.

Mr. McDonald: On the question of privilege, it is unfortunate that the Members who are choosing to promote this question of privilege today did not choose to make it known to the Official Opposition. I think they have probably discussed it among themselves, but I suppose if this was a tactic perhaps of theirs, it is unfortunate that the Member to whom they are referring is not present to make a statement, which I think is due to him. For my own part, I think a discussion of how a Speaker is criticized from time to time should be the subject of some discussion. I, for one, have felt that to go through the process of the substantive motions basically promoting the concept that the Speaker should be censured absolutely or not at all, is a problem this Legislature does suffer from, and I would be more than happy to debate such a motion - certainly respecting the rules governing this sort of situation. If that is what the Members are speaking to, then I would, on behalf of my caucus, not object to such an avenue.

But once again, I think it is unfortunate that a matter as sensitive as this would not be expressed to the Official Opposition in advance.

Speaker: I thank the Members for their input on the question of privilege. It is the job of the Speaker whether or not there appears to be a prima facie case of breach of privilege and whether the matter is being raised at the earliest opportunity.

I would like to review the remarks that were made by the Leader of the Official Opposition last Wednesday, as well as the comments made by the Members of the Assembly today, and I will have a decision on the question of privilege tomorrow afternoon, following Question Period.

We will now proceed to Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Speaker: Government Bills.

GOVERNMENT BILLS

Bill No. 9: Third Reading

Clerk: Third reading, Bill No. 9, standing in the name of the Hon. Mr. Ostashek.

Speaker: Acting Government Leader.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I move that Bill No. 9, entitled Interim Supply Appropriation Act, 1993-94 (No. 3), be now read a third time and do pass.

Speaker: It has been moved by the acting Government Leader that Bill No. 3, entitled Interim Supply Appropriation Act, 1993-94 (No. 3), be now read a third time and do pass.

Motion for third reading of Bill No. 9 agreed to

Speaker: I declare that Bill No. 9 has passed this House.

I would like to inform the House that we are now prepared to receive the Commissioner, acting in his capacity as Lieutenant Governor, to grant assent to a certain bill that has passed this House.

Commissioner enters the Chamber announced by the Sergeant-at-Arms

ASSENT TO BILLS

Commissioner: Please be seated.

Speaker: Mr. Commissioner, the Assembly has, at its present session, passed a certain bill to which, in the name of and on behalf of the Assembly, I respectfully request your assent.

Clerk: Interim Supply Appropriation Act, 1993-94 (No. 3).

Commissioner: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Mr. Speaker, I hereby assent to the bill as enumerated by the Clerk.

Commissioner leaves the Chamber

Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair: I will now call the Committee of the Whole to order. Is it the wish of the Members to take a brief recess at this time?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: We will take a brief recess.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order.

Bill No. 6 - First Appropriation Act, 1993-94 - continued

Department of Health and Social Services - continued

On Health Services - continued

Chair: We are dealing with Bill No. 6 and we are on Health Services. Is there any further general debate?

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like to ask the Minister about some of the increases in cost in the health services branch. Why has Vital Statistics increased by 34 percent?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: There was an increase of $28,000 for an additional part-time term bilingual stats officer. This position is being added under the French language services agreement and is fully funded by the feds. It is offset by a $5,000 reduction in supplies.

Ms. Moorcroft: The most significant increase here is Program Management, which has gone up 107 percent. Perhaps the Minister could explain that?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The increase is $440,000. This doubling in expenditures is a direct result of staffing for phase 2 of the health transfer negotiations. Phase 2 involves the transfer of the community health programs and nursing stations.

Due to the number and complexity of the programs being negotiated, this phase will require additional supports. Two term positions will be added to the health transfer negotiating team at a cost of $101,000. The third position is presently staffed - that is a program analyst.

Operational costs for the health transfer team will increase by $400,000, primarily for contract services. Both of these costs are fully recoverable from MSB. Other increases include a $5,000 increase in contributions available to community health and social services boards and a $50,000 reallocation of community health contract service funds to program management from the community health program. These funds will be used for projects related to community initiatives and needs assessments.

These increases are offset by the following reductions: a reallocation of $94,000 in salary costs from the Program Management line item to the Community Health line item, a $22,000 reduction in one-time contributions made in 1992-93, and that was $7,000 to CPR Yukon and $15,000 to the Community of Mayo for health assessments.

Ms. Moorcroft: The health insurance costs have fallen by 21 percent. I would like to ask the Minister how that has happened. I know there has been, at times, a problem with outsiders using the Yukon health insurance plan; has that been addressed?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: When we get to that line, I will be moving an amendment to reduce it by $50,000 but, in general debate, the decrease is $7,526,000 and is largely because this line no longer includes the contribution to the medical services branch for the hospital. Health insurance decreased by the amount of the 1992-93 contribution. In 1992-93, the contribution to MSB for the hospital was $10,742,000. This did not represent 100 percent of the full operating costs of the hospital; however, it did represent that part of our fiscal formula grant that was applicable to the operation of the hospital. So, back then, we only paid MSB what we got from the feds in the formula.

There is a decrease of $9,000 in the YMA malpractice insurance contribution, a decrease of $2,000 due to a two-percent reduction in management salaries, and a decrease in personnel costs due to the planned transfer of the mammography technician to the hospital corporation, which will occur in October.

It is offset by projected increases established through the analysis of historic price and volume increases.

There is a further amendment on that line - $1,852,000 for out-of-territory hospital billings, prior to the tax phase-in strategy cut that we made as a result of phasing the income tax. It was $1,902,000.

There is $753,000 for in- and out-of-territory physicians’ medical claims; $29,000 for STD testing contracts; $203,000 increase in medical travel; $16,000 increase in medical travel subsidies; $182,000 increase for the chronic disease program; $72,000 for the Pharmacare program; $56,000 increase in the extended health program; $74,000 increase in contract services for the mammography program; $18,000 for supplies, program materials and communications; $37,000 for collective agreement employee merit increases.

Ms. Moorcroft: There used to be quite long waiting lists for speech and hearing services. How are they now?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I will get back with a more specific answer. We think that they are down because we have not heard about them for awhile. I will get something more concrete than that.

Ms. Moorcroft: Thank you. We were talking about the extended care facility in Question Period today. I am sure that the Minister expected that he would not get through this debate without any questions on that facility. I presume that he is still planning on opening it in September. When the extended care facility does open, patients who are presently at Macaulay Lodge - even though they are not able to offer the kind of care that Alzheimer patients, for example, need - are going to be transferred to the new facility. Will the beds at Macaulay that are vacated by patients, who will be more adequately cared for in the new extended care facility, be open for seniors who require housing at Macaulay Lodge?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I thank the Member. I thought that was what the Member for Riverdale South was getting at during Question Period this afternoon. We are, of course, closing down the program in Macaulay Lodge. We are transferring about eight patients. It will not result in more beds for seniors. The end result will not mean loosening up more spaces at Macaulay.

Ms. Moorcroft: What exactly is being closed down, when the Minister says that the program at Macaulay is closing? How much will Macaulay Lodge be losing?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The extended care patients will be transferred to the new continuing care facility, and that represents eight beds in Macaulay Lodge. That was an interim program, or strategy, to bridge the time until the new facility was operational. There will be 10.5 positions moving over to the new continuing care facility. This will not result in any additional beds for traditional care in Macaulay.

Ms. Moorcroft: Health promotion is seen to be a way of resolving cost overrun problems in the Health and Social Services budgets. I note that health promotion is being cut dramatically. Why is there a $200,000 cut in health promotion?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: To put it as simply as I can, the situation is that the health investment fund is carried over every year. If there is a surplus, it is automatically carried over. What has happened is that it was not being fully taken down, so there will be about $214,000 available for the year we are in right now. This was done because there had not been sufficient uptake. We felt it was one place where, at least for this year, we could find some money to do other things with.

Ms. Moorcroft: I also note that AIDS education has been cut by $17,000. AIDS is an epidemic, and the treatment of HIV positive, HIV and AIDS patients costs the system billions of dollars, so prevention is really the key to dealing with that issue. Why is there a cut of $17,000 to the AIDS education?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I met with the AIDS Yukon Alliance people and they asked us for an additional $8,000 and I promised to try and get that for them. I was successful in having Cabinet support that. So we increased our core funding by $8,000. This was offset by a reduction of $25,000 over 1992-93 for a federally funded conference, and that change of $17,000 decreased. Our contribution, as a government, went up. They asked me for a specific amount and I promised to try to get it for them, and did.

Ms. Moorcroft: I will thank the Minister for that. I am ready to move into line-by-line debate, if there are not any more questions - I believe the Member for Riverside has some questions.

Mr. Cable: Can the Minister advise what the status of the Registered Nurses Association Act is?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The act was passed last year and then there was quite a backlash from registered nurses throughout the territory. The association agreed to go through some consultation and meetings with all the registered nurses in the territory. They have done that and they have had some very successful meetings. They brought up a very senior nurse, who is the principal nurse for Canada. There was a very successful round of meetings and now it is out for a vote. We expect that the new act will, this time, be supported to a sufficient degree that we can ask to have it proclaimed.

Mr. Cable: There was some question as to how the vote would be conducted. Could the Minister advise us as to who is supervising the vote?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The Yukon Association of Registered Nurses is supervising it, but the Department of Justice is actively involved, as well.

Mr. Cable: I have a couple of questions about the respite care. The Minister was good enough to answer a question I put to him in written form, indicating that the budget was $75,000.

I know that some parents of handicapped children have approached the Minister and his officials with a view to setting up a home away from home for some parents who need some respite from the care of these children. Has the Minister considered whether or not this is a viable alternative to putting the children in an institution, such as the hospital or the new building across the river?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: This issue, of course, has the potential of being very costly to resolve. There are Yukon groups that support measures that can be implemented at far less cost than an institution that would be open all the time for parents, which is the option the Member speaks of. We are exploring ways of enhancing respite, but, at this point in time, I am not in favour, given the costs, of the concept of a special home.

Mr. Cable: Is it the Minister’s present intention to have these children boarded in the hospital or in the extended care facility during respite?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The simple answer is no; the primary purpose of the continuing care facility is for people over 17 years of age, which is part of the policy that has been released to the public with the announcement of the opening. There is one child, I believe, who is currently in the hospital but that is more because of medical needs than the issue of respite.

Our view is that we want to find ways of providing respite in the home rather than in institutions, and there is quite a demand for various care givers, foster parents and parents of FAS/FAE kids. We feel a lot of these can be accommodated by giving them time off by having people look after the children at home for them.

Mr. Cable: So, it would be the Minister’s view, then, that the children would stay at home and the parents would absent themselves during respite. Is that the proposed drill?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: That is it in a nutshell, yes.

Ms. Moorcroft: I would just like to briefly go back to the issue of the AIDS education cut. The Minister said that the government was giving an increased core funding payment to the AIDS Yukon Alliance; however, what I am looking at is on page 176 under Contributions for Health Services, where the Skookum Jim Friendship Centre AIDS education has been reduced from $112,000 last year to $95,000 this year. Where would I find the line with the contribution agreement to the AIDS Yukon Alliance that the Minister was referring to?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The explanation is this: included in last year’s - aside from the core funding - there is a one-time $25,000 contribution that we flowed through from the feds. That contribution was for a federally funded conference that took place last year. If we subtract the $25,000 from last year’s, we will arrive at the core funding. I was approached, as the Minister, to increase the core funding by $8,000 and that is what we did.

The core funding was provided to Skookum Jim, and then this has been delegated by them as they often do with programs they start, to AIDS Yukon Alliance.

Chair: Are we ready to proceed with line-by-line debate?

On Program Management

Program Management agreed to

On Health Insurance

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Health Insurance on page 162 in the operation and maintenance estimates by $50,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Amendment agreed to

Health Insurance in the amount of $27,662,000 agreed to as amended

On Yukon Hospital Services

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Yukon Hospital Services, on page 162 in the operation and maintenance estimates by $200,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Amendment agreed to

Yukon Hospital Services in the amount of $17,496,000 agreed to as amended

On Community Health

Community Health in the amount of $5,149,000 agreed to

On Extended Health

Extended Health in the amount of $5,711,000 agreed to

On Vital Statistics

Vital Statistics in the amount of $90,000 agreed to

Health Services in the amount of $26,961,000 agreed to as amended

On Regional Services

Chair: Is there any general debate?

On Program Management

Program Management in the amount of $1,977,000 agreed to

On Family and Children’s Services

Family and Children’s Services in the amount of $1,694,000 agreed to

On Social Services

Mr. Penikett: I could ask this question now, or at any one of several lines. The question is very general in nature. The Minister may be aware of a report commissioned by the Second Opinion Society on mental health programs in the territory. I am interested in knowing whether the Minister has had a chance to read it, whether the department has been persuaded by any of the recommendations in the report or whether they intend to have any policy changes as a result of the study of that report. I will not ask about all the specific recommendations, but among them is the idea of a safe house for people in crisis, or people having mental health troubles, where they can be free of agencies. There is also a thesis in the report presented about a non-medical approach to mental health problems. Even though, as the sponsor of the act, I thought it was a good piece of legislation, the Second Opinion Society felt the rights of mental health patients, under the Mental Health Act, were not as well protected as they should be.

Has the Minister read the report? Does he have any opinions on any of the recommendations?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: We are sympathetic to many of the positions taken by the SOS in the report, which is why they were funded, in the first place, to come up with the report. We will be responding in some detail to it.

The largest issue in our mind, at this time, is that of getting our hands on sufficient funding. We want to start a dialogue with SOS with respect to these issues and put what money we can into some of these initiatives this year. We agree with some of the fundamental positions taken with respect to the kind of care that is needed here, and the issue of a safe house, if we can afford that.

At this time, we do not contemplate any changes to the act itself.

Mr. Penikett: I have one more question. I know this is a detailed question, and that there are many recommendations in the report.

I wonder if the Minister would be prepared to give an undertaking to, at some point in the proceedings of Committee or the House - perhaps in the fall at the time of his supplementaries - to make a statement in some detail about the response of the government to the report.

Ms. Moorcroft: Has the Minister, or his department, talked to the Second Opinion Society about the cut by $5,000 to mental health housing?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: We are in a fairly continuous dialogue with SOS. The cut that the Member speaks about was simply cut because it was not used last year. Where that happened, we made cuts.

Social Services in the amount of $2,583,000 agreed to

On Juvenile Justice Services

Juvenile Justice Services in the amount of $80,000 agreed to

Regional Services in the amount of $6,334,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures agreed to

On Capital

On Policy, Planning and Administration

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: Just as an overview, I am pleased to introduce today the 1993-94 capital budget for the department. The budget totals $20,483,000. Reductions of $200,000 will be introduced here today, so that the new capital budget total will be $20,283,000, of which 87 percent, or $17,666,000, will be recovered. Net expenditures will, therefore, be $2,617,000, or only 13 percent of the gross expenditures.

The $200,000 reductions affect the following projects: $10,000 will be cut from the Office Furniture and Operational Equipment project, listed under the planning and administration branch, so that their budget will be reduced to $168,000. The cut will affect the number of computer work stations the department is able to purchase. Facility Construction - Integrated Health and Social Services will be reduced by $45,000 to $145,000. This is the second item listed under the policy, planning and administration branch. Of this cut, $10,000 will be applied to planned renovations to the alcohol and drug services office space and $35,000 will be cut from the global funding pool available for the development of integrated health and social service facilities. Both of these projects will be reduced in scope. The funding is still included in this budget to permit the majority of the work to proceed.

Ten thousand dollars was also been cut from the Systems Development line item under the policy, planning and administration branch, reducing this item to $70,000. The department had planned to update the systems information plan. This will no longer be feasible with this reduction in funds. Ten thousand dollars will be reduced from the Young Offenders Facility Renovations, located in the family and children’s services section of the budget. The new amount for this project should be $155,000. This reduction will reduce the renovations originally planned for the open facility at 501 Taylor.

In the health services branch, two projects for the continuing care facility will be decreased. The building project will drop by $25,000 to $75,000. The equipment project will now be $900,000, instead of $1 million. The reduction in the building project will reduce the scope of some exterior work planned for this facility in 1993-94. The change in the equipment budget will have no effect on the total planned furniture and equipment, purchased for this facility.

More current information at year-end indicated that more materials were received in 1992-93 than originally anticipated, cutting down the requirement for funds in 1993-94.

There is $13,781,000, or 68 percent of the capital budget, for the new hospital. Funds will be used to complete the planning and site preparation phases, to begin laying the foundation for the new facility and some infrastructure work, such as water and sewer lines. Over the total life of the project the total costs are expected to be $49,338,000, with a substantial completion date of the summer of 1996. We all know that the startup of the main construction is delayed by a few months, so all of the $13 million will not be spent this fiscal year.

Of the total capital funds, 21 percent, or $4,300,000, will be contributed to the Whitehorse Hospital Corporation. The majority of this project represents flow-through funding. Some one-time payments were negotiated through the health transfer agreement for specific purposes. There is $1,018,700 to maintain the current hospital until such time as the new facility is completed.

There is $400,000 to maintain the No. 2 and No. 4 Hospital roads during their lifetime and to maintain the nurses residence until such time as the replacement facility is built.

There is $2,348,000 that is to be used to replace current equipment as required. There is $500,000 that is to be used to replace the nurses’ residence, and $40,000 is to be used for necessary upgrades to the administrative systems.

Four percent, or $900,000, will be used to purchase furniture and equipment for the new continuing care facility. The remaining seven percent, or $1,302,000, is spread over 23 projects and will be discussed during line-by-line debate.

Ms. Moorcroft: In Policy, Planning and Administration, what is the $80,000 amount for Systems Development for? That is a line that has been increased by 60 percent and I would like to know what it is for.

Hon. Mr. Phelps: There will be an amendment to this line, reducing it by $10,000 to $70,000. The funds are to develop computer systems needed to maintain efficient, effective service delivery.

Of the $70,000, $50,000 is for the completion of the customization of the social assistance computer system currently under development - that is LISA.

Imported from the Province of Alberta was computer software to process and maintain social assistance payments, client and statistical information. Some of the software was not appropriate to our needs and had to be changed. This customization is currently underway and will be completed very shortly. Also, some additional program development and equipment will be required to implement the social assistance programs in the outlying communities.

A purchase in the amount of $20,000 will be made for a prepackaged software system for the departmental library. The department current undertakes a fairly substantial amount of research into programs and policies used in other jurisdictions, information contained in professional journals and periodicals and texts written on the subject. This software would permit the librarian to link with other libraries, making cross referencing and information location easier.

The $10,000 reduction in this line item will eliminate the planned expenditure for updating the department systems information plan.

Ms. Moorcroft: Perhaps the Minister could bring me back more specific information about the library software program and the social assistance software program?

The systems development amount, then, is completely for software. How much of the amended amount of $168,000 for office furniture and operational equipment goes to computer work stations and how much to furniture?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: Fifty thousand dollars will be used to replace or acquire computer work stations.

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister tell me about the amended amount of $145,000 for facility construction? What facilities will that be going to?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: One is to construct, improve or maintain departmental office space as required to meet program objectives and government standards, and the second is to provide a global funding pool for community needs assessments and resource surveys. Eighty thousand is being requested for office renovations for two projects; $20,000 of that is to renovate additional office space requirements for the four-person phase 2 of the health transfer negotiating team. Ten of the $45,000 reduction was taken from the ADS renovation budget, which has gone down from $70,000 to $60,000. These funds will be used to renovate new office space requirements identified through the alcohol and drug strategy. New space will accommodate offices and working areas for 10 staff, three washrooms, two with handicap capability, a group counselling room, which will accommodate up to 20 people, a family counselling room, staff rooms, storage and a reception area. The remaining $35,000 of the $45,000 reduction was taken from the global funding pool for the planning phase associated with the development of integrated social services facilities. Phase 2 of the health transfer negotiations is expected to increase demand for community needs assessments and resource surveys; $65,000 is now the planned expenditure for this project. The original capital budget, as presented in this Legislature, includes $90,000 for that item.

Ms. Moorcroft: I am ready to proceed with the lines.

Mrs. Firth: Before we leave general debate, I would like to ask the Minister if he will provide me with some information that answers the questions that I raised in the Legislature this afternoon.

I do not need a verbal answer right away, but I would like a written response before the end of this week.

I want to know what the rationale is for the change of the beds at Macaulay Lodge, the status of the extended care beds, the 10.5 person years that are going to be transferred from Macaulay to the new extended care facility; what kinds of services Macaulay is going to provide; what the staffing level is going to be; I would like answers to the questions about the hiring process for the staff for the extended care facility; who is on the interview committee; who will be making the final decisions about who is hired.

I am particularly interested in knowing how much involvement the head nurse of the facility will have in the hiring process, whether she will have the final say, of the Public Service Commission, or if the Department Health and Social Services will have final say as to who is hired.

I would appreciate a commitment from the Minister to provide me with that information prior to the end of the week so that if I want to follow up in Question Period I can do so.

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I will make that commitment to the Member.

On Office Furniture and Operational Equipment

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Office Furniture and Operational Equipment on page 62 in the capital estimates by $10,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Amendment agreed to

Office Furniture and Operational Equipment in the amount of $168,000 agreed to as amended

On Facility Construction - Integrated Health and Social Services

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Facility Construction - Integrated Health and Social Services on page 62 in the capital estimates by $45,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Mr. Penikett: In connection with this amendment, I wonder if the Minister had considered amending the line in respect to the hospital construction, given what we now know about that other schedule for that new building?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: It has been contemplated that that will take place in the fall in the supplementaries.

Amendment agreed to

Facility Construction - Integrated Health and Social Services in the amount of $145,000,000 agreed to as amended

On Systems Development

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Systems Development on page 62 in the capital estimates by $10,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Amendment agreed to

Systems Development in the amount of $70,000 agreed to as amended

Policy, Planning and Administration in the amount of $383,000 agreed to as amended

On Family and Children’s Services

On Group Homes - Construction and Renovation

Group Homes - Construction and Renovation in the amount of $36,000 agreed to

On Group Homes - Equipment Replacement

Group Homes - Equipment Replacement in the amount of $25,000 agreed to

On Child Care Services Development

Child Care Services Development in the amount of $35,000 agreed to

On Foster Home Equipment

Foster Home Equipment in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

On Young Offenders’ Operational Equipment

Young Offenders’ Operational Equipment in the amount of $30,000 agreed to

On Young Offenders’ Facility Renovations

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Young Offenders’ Facility Renovations on page 63 in the capital estimates by $10,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Chair: Is there any debate on the amendment?

Amendment agreed to

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister tell me what renovations are being done at the young offenders’ facility for $155,000?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: There will be $120,000 used for a security system upgrade at the secure facility. The current communication and lock system requires replacement. There will be $35,000 used at the open custody facility at 501 Taylor for a fire alarm system, pull box stations and paving. The $10,000 reduction was taken from funds planned to correct a deficiency in the garage at 501 Taylor.

Young Offenders’ Facility Renovations in the amount of $155,000 agreed to as amended

On Prior Years’ Projects

Prior Years’ Projects in the amount of nil agreed to

Family and Children’s Services in the amount of $291,000 agreed to as amended

On Social Services

Chair: Is there any general debate?

On Alcohol and Drug Services - Equipment Replacement

Alcohol and Drug Services - Equipment Replacement in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

On Home Care - Operational Equipment

Home Care - Operational Equipment in the amount of $5,000 agreed to

On Prior Years’ Projects

Prior Years’ Projects in the amount of nil agreed to

Social Services in the amount of $15,000 agreed to

On Health Services

Chair: Is there any general debate?

Ms. Moorcroft: In his introductory remarks, the Minister said that the amount of $13,781,000 for the acute care facility at the Whitehorse Hospital would not all be spent, that they would be doing the completion of the design work, lay the foundations and do some water and sewer work.

Can the Minister give us an indication of how much will be spent on this project in the coming fiscal year?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: It will be approximately $7 million, which includes the design work. I think that is roughly $2 million.

Ms. Moorcroft: When does the Minister expect that the design work will be completed?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: Following the schedule we are on, the design work will be completed and the tender documents will be ready to put out in January, for the work to start in the first week of April.

Chair: Is there any further debate on the program?

On Northern Health Services

Northern Health Services in the amount of $277,000 agreed to

On Communication Disorders Equipment

Communication Disorders Equipment in the amount of $15,000 agreed to

On Extended Health Equipment - Seniors

Extended Health Equipment - Seniors in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

On Chronic Disease Benefits - Equipment

Chronic Disease Benefits - Equipment in the amount of $12,000 agreed to

On Macaulay Lodge - Renovations

Macaulay Lodge - Renovations in the amount of $20,000 agreed to

On Macaulay Lodge - Equipment Replacement

Macaulay Lodge - Equipment Replacement in the amount of $25,000 agreed to

On Acute Care Facility - Whitehorse Hospital

Acute Care Facility - Whitehorse Hospital in the amount of $13,781,000 agreed to

On Ambulance Replacement

Ambulance Replacement in the amount of $65,000 agreed to

On Ambulance Unit Equipment

Ambulance Unit Equipment in the amount of $9,000 agreed to

On Continuing Care Facility - Building

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Continuing Care Facility - Building on page 65 in the capital estimates by $25,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Amendment agreed to

Continuing Care Facility - Building in the amount of $75,000 agreed to as amended

On Continuing Care Facility - Equipment

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 15, Health and Social Services, by reducing the line item Continuing Care Facility - Equipment on page 65 in the capital estimates by $100,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Amendment agreed to

Continuing Care Facility - Equipment in the amount of $900,000 agreed to as amended

On Whitehorse Hospital Corporation Contribution

Hon. Mr. Phelps: Some one-time payments were negotiated through the health transfer agreement for specific purposes. They were contributed to the Whitehorse Hospital Corporation under agreements stipulating their specific purpose. These one-time payments from the federal government include the following: $1,018,700 to maintain the current hospital until the new one is built; $400,000 to maintain No. 2 and No. 4 Hospital roads during their lifetime and to maintain the nurses’ residence until the replacement is built; $40,000 for computer upgrades necessary to the proper maintenance and transmittal of hospital financial and statistical information; $2,341,500 to be used to replace current equipment as required; $500,000 in additional funds to be used to replace the nurses’ residence, and that will be provided over three consecutive years for this purpose.

Ms. Moorcroft: What is the status of the transfer of hospital employees then?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: On the day of the grand announcement, they received lay-off notices, which is a six-month provision, so on October 1 they will be transferred to the hospital corporation.

Whitehorse Hospital Corporation Contribution in the amount of $4,300,000 agreed to

Health Services in the amount of $19,489,000 agreed to as amended

On Regional Services

On Safe Homes in Rural Yukon

Ms. Moorcroft: Could the Minister give me a breakdown of this line, please?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The objective of this, of course, is to facilitate the development of a safe places network in communities outside Whitehorse. The network includes safe homes, shelters, transition home services and second-stage housing for victims of family violence. The current request will support community projects involving planning, construction acquisition or renovation of facilities and acquisition or installation of major equipment, program materials or furnishings for the facility management or program delivery purposes. I gather it has been reduced because it was not taken up last year.

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister indicate what communities will be using funds this year for the line item amount of $75,000?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: It would depend upon initiatives from the communities. We expect to have initiatives brought forward by communities such as Ross River and other communities that are developing healing centres.

It is a matter of timing, but I suspect that the major initiative will come from two or three communities who are completing their healing centres. These are multi-purpose centres and are viewed as a very important component.

Ms. Moorcroft: So the Minister is not aware of any outstanding requests from any of the communities for safe homes?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: No, we are not aware of any outstanding requests, but we are certainly aware of the fact that there will be some coming forward.

Safe Homes in Rural Yukon in the amount of $75,000 agreed to

On McDonald Lodge - Furniture and Equipment

McDonald Lodge - Furniture and Equipment in the amount of $30,000 agreed to

Regional Services in the amount of $105,000 agreed to

Capital Expenditures agreed to as amended

Health and Social Services agreed to as amended

Chair: We will move on to vote 7, Economic Development

Department of Economic Development - continued

Chair: Is there further general debate?

Hon. Mr. Devries: I just gave out a handout a few minutes ago. It is the estimated employment impacts of the YTG capital budget. If Members look at the handout, it still includes some of the projects that may or may not go ahead. My understanding was, to make it as accurate as possible, they had to include any capital projects that were in the existing capital mains. I had contemplated putting in the reductions that were going to come forward in amendments, but there was no certainty that all those reductions would be passed by this House; therefore, it still has those proposed reductions included in it. This employment impact is based on the mains, as they were originally represented in the House, when we first received them.

If the Members have any further questions pertaining to this, I would be happy to answer them. The 707 jobs created do not included the employment multiplier. You would have to multiply that by 1.56 to arrive at the indirect jobs that would be created by these construction projects.

Also, please note that the numbers are person years. For instance, when the construction starts on the hospital, where there is going to be somewhere between $3 million and $4 million spent, which would roughly translate into 19 person years, there could be as many as 40 to 60 people employed during the spending of that $3.3 million.

Mr. Penikett: I thank the Minister for providing us with this information. I thank also the economist who has worked to present this information and has developed the technical paper, which accompanies the chart with the jobs listed on it. I note that the economist does calculate that if you use the multiplier of 1.56, you can get a total employment impact of 1,103. That is based on the person year estimate of 707, which the Minister has admitted is subject to change. This list includes - as I asked about the other day - the $20 million in land and $14 million in hospital construction costs, most of which is likely not to be spent and could reduce the total here by a few dozen jobs. I am not going to quibble about that. I thank the Minister for the information. As the economist notes, these are estimates and it very much depends on what projects are completed during the year. I appreciate the frankness of that professional in providing the information in that form.

On Economic Policy and Planning - stood over

Economic  Policy and Planning in the amount of $463,000 agreed to

Economic Policy, Planning and Research in the amount of $930,000 agreed to

Operational and Maintenance Expenditures agreed to as amended

On Capital Expenditures

On Administration

On Departmental Equipment, Furniture and Office Space

Departmental Equipment, Furniture and Office Space in the amount of $30,000 agreed to

Administration in the amount of $30,000 agreed to

On Energy and Mines

On Electrical Infrastructure Loans

Electrical Infrastructure Loans in the amount of $1.00 agreed to

On Saving Energy Action Loans (SEAL)

Saving Energy Action Loans (SEAL) in the amount of $575,000 agreed to

On Internal Energy Management Program

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Devries: I move

That the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 07, Economic Development, by reducing the line item Internal Energy Management Program on page 33 in the capital estimates by $50,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Is there any debate on the amendment?

Mr. Cable: My question in on the substantive part of the amendment. Would my question be appropriate at this time?

Chair: Yes, on the amendment.

Mr. Cable: I will ask the questions and you can rule me in or out of order.

Could the Minister tell us what this involves? Is this part of the demand-side management for the government buildings?

Hon. Mr. Devries: Basically, the $100,000 originally budgeted was to provide $50,000 for energy audits and $50,000 for research and consulting studies to identify potential energy savings in government buildings.

This reduction of $50,000 leaves $25,000 for audits and $25,000 for consulting studies. Basically, this forces us to priorize some buildings. The buildings that we would be concentrating on would be those using electricity generated from diesel fuel, rather than buildings that are on the Whitehorse/Aishihik/Faro electrical grid at this point.

Amendment agreed to

Internal Energy Management Program in the amount of $50,000 agreed to as amended

On Yukon Mining Incentives Program (YMIP)

Yukon Mining Incentives Program (YMIP) in the amount of $863,000 agreed to

On Mineral Development Agreement

Mineral Development Agreement in the amount of $2,100,000 agreed to

Energy and Mines in the amount of $3,588,000 agreed to as amended

On Economic Policy, Planning and Research

On NOGAP

NOGAP in the amount of $284,000 agreed to

Economic Policy, Planning and Research in the amount of $284,000 agreed to

On Economic Programs

On Community Development Fund

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Devries: I move

THAT the estimates pertaining to Bill No. 6, entitled First Appropriation Act, 1993-94, be amended in vote 07, Economic Development, by reducing the line item Community Development Fund on page 35 in the capital estimates by $100,000; and

THAT the clauses and schedules of the bill be amended accordingly.

Chair: Is there any debate on the amendment?

Mr. Penikett: If I am correct, according to the information just given us by the Minister, this will cost us one job.

Hon. Mr. Devries: That could be true.

Amendment agreed to

Community Development Fund in the amount of $3,289,000 agreed to as amended

On Business Development Fund

Business Development Fund in the amount of $2,879,000 agreed to

On Economic Development Agreement

Economic Development Agreement in the amount of $6,587,000 agreed to

Economic Programs in the amount of $12,755,000 agreed to as amended

Chair: Is it the wish of the Members to take a brief recess at this time?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: We will take a brief recess.

Recess

Chair: I will call the Committee of the Whole to order.

Department of Education

Chair: We are on vote 3. Is there any general debate on Education?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I believe that this budget demonstrates that the Yukon Party government is strongly committed to quality education at all levels and is prepared, even at times of financial restraint, to provide the dollars to back up the commitment.

Allow me to point out a few highlights. The O&M budget for public schools have been increased to ensure that clients of the school system continue to enjoy one of the lowest student-teacher ratios in Canada, if not the lowest. The chronic underfunding of the student financial assistance program has been addressed to ensure that all eligible Yukoners in post-secondary have access to current levels of support.

The funding for Yukon College has been maintained, ensuring that Yukon students pursuing a wide variety of studies continue to enjoy post-secondary opportunities right here in Yukon.

The training trust fund for land claims implementation, has more than tripled in size with the addition of $2.4 million in this fiscal year. Funding for the summer student employment programs, including Challenge, STEP and the computer camp, has been maintained at comparable levels.

The apprenticeship incentive marketing, or AIM program, will be focused on employment equity groups. The review of the Yukon public school curriculum called for by many concerned parents and educators will be undertaken in this current fiscal year.

How then with the Department of Education contribute to its share of overall reduction in government spending? Mostly on the capital side. The department has to say that it has been prominent in its support of the Yukon construction industry over the past few years, with the completion of Yukon College and several community campuses, the new Yukon Archives, the Yukon Arts Centre, three new elementary schools in the Whitehorse area, the new Watson Lake high school and the renovation of the Whitehorse Public Library.

This year we will be completing the new Holy Family Elementary School in Porter Creek. However, because of a downturn in Mayo student population in recent years and financial restraints, the new school in that community has been postponed - at least until we see if the trend in population continues and we can do an evaluation of that particular school. The expansion of Grey Mountain School, to grade six has also been postponed and it is therefore possible to delay that project for one year.

During the debate on the supplementary estimates for 1992-93 on May 3, the Member for McIntyre-Takhini was kind enough to provide us with a long list of subjects and questions he intended to raise during this debate on the mains.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I appreciate the notice, even though I could have answered the large majority of his questions at the time he asked them. Perhaps I could address two of them in a general fashion now.

One of the Member’s chief concerns, if I read him correctly, is whether or not the government intends to do a lot of tinkering with the Education Act, which he did so much to put together. The answer is no. There may be some minor housekeeping amendments somewhere down the road, but, in terms of the principles and the major reforms of the act put in place and passage in 1990, this side had no problem with them then and has no problem with them now. How these principles translate into classroom practice will be the subject of the education review, but the review will not even consider changes to the Education Act.

By the same light, the Member said he wanted to know how we felt about devolving educational decision making from the education building to the school, involving school councils and principals to a greater extent in matters of staffing, budgeting and facility management. I think our position on this matter is predictable. We are not fans of big government. If school councils and school administrators are willing and able to take on the task currently being done by head office bureaucrats several miles away, we would encourage them to do so.

We will not make decisions on such things as patriotic exercises or maintaining a supply of condoms in particular schools. Those decisions will be made by the parents through school councils, as they should be.

We will also refine and strengthen such bodies as the curriculum advisory committee and the educational field tribunal to ensure that the public school system remains dynamic and responsible to the entire educational community.

The Member opposite - the former Minister - also forewarned us about questions concerning a number of curriculum initiatives currently underway or being developed in the schools. The curriculum, of course, will be the focus of the education review. We have no wish to prejudge that review’s findings. Nevertheless, this government has no hesitation in stating its commitments to three educational goals: the universal attainment of basic literacy and enumeracy skills that will allow Yukoners to compete in a very tough labour market, preparation of students to enter the world of work through greater cooperation with the private sector, and keeping as many Yukoners in schools through graduation, as well as giving them strong support in the pursuit of post-secondary education. We will continue to monitor our progress toward attaining these goals.

I should think that the statement of those principles would answer a number of specific questions that the Member warned us about, and yes, we will continue strong support of the native language centre and the First Nations education commission and the involvement of elders in sharing their skills and their perspective.

Yes, we will continue with such programs as PASS and the Teen Parent Centre, which will allow more of our young people to continue their education. Yes, we will continue our pioneering work in the areas of outdoor education and work-experience programs as well.

I hope these simple statements of principle make the Member a little more clear in his mind about where I and my colleagues stand in education; but I think the strongest statement is not in words but in numbers and the numbers are in these main estimates. It is the long-term economic health of the Yukon that we have in mind when we resist cutting spending in public schools and advanced education. We want Yukon young people to finish school, to explore all the options lying at their feet and to find meaningful employment right here in Yukon, to make the Yukon their home and their workplace.

The old saying is no less true for being old: “There is no better way to invest our dollars than in our children.”

Thank you. I will be pleased to answer any questions the Member may have in general debate.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister has staked out some very familiar ground - the education policy. I recognize virtually everything the Minister has stated so far. I have not been able to quite detect where the Minister feels changes might be made but perhaps, through a few questions and answers, we will get a better appreciation for where the government plans to take education.

In reviewing the 30 or so questions that were responded to in the legislative return on May 20, there were a number of areas that probably deserve a little bit of further review, and I will just put some questions to the Minister; if he can answer them now, that is fine. If he cannot, then that is fine, too, as long as we get an answer eventually.

The first question I have has to do with the education review. I understand that there has been something less than an enthusiastic response to the review in terms of nominations to the review committee. I wonder if the Minister could give us some sense of what is happening with the review, whether or not the committee has been struck, who chairs it, whether or not they have had any organizational meetings, and that sort of thing?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: No, the committee has not been struck as yet. We are still awaiting official word of nominations from the Council for Yukon Indians. I think that we have received nominations from almost every other group, and we have received some verbal commitment of two individuals from CYI and I just signed a letter the other day, asking for the names of these two individuals in writing. I am waiting to hear from them before we proceed any further.

I am hoping that we can get this going within the next couple of weeks so that the committee can be appointed and start their work.

Mr. McDonald: Who does the Minister intend to appoint as chairperson of the committee?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There has not yet been a decision on that yet. We are looking at several individuals who have indicated some interest, but there has been no decision made as to who the chairperson will be.

Mr. McDonald: In terms of appointing a chairperson to the committee, can the Minister indicate who he is looking for? Is the Minister looking for an institutional representative, a private citizen he or the government knows, a  person who has been nominated? What are his priorities with respect to the selection of the chairperson?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: We are looking at choosing a chairperson who does not necessarily have to be from the group of nominees to the various committees. I would like to see someone in that position who has a fairly extensive educational background, someone who is or was a teacher or someone of that nature, someone who has lived in the Yukon for a long period of time and understands the problems and concerns that we have here and someone who is a good facilitator, who could work with a group and help them put together a report. That is the type of person that I am looking for to chair this committee.

Mr. McDonald: Is the Minister intending the decisions and conclusions reached by the committee to be developed through consensus building, through majority vote, or how would the Minister propose that be done?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I would hope the committee members could work that out among themselves. I would prefer to see recommendations from the committee that would be unanimous. That would be my preference in making any changes. I know that may not be possible with all the recommendations, because some may be more controversial than others. If the Member is asking my preference, I would prefer that any recommendation made by the committee would be unanimous.

Mr. McDonald: I understand some people have been nominated to the task force by, for example, the Yukon Teachers Association, and the Minister has responded by indicating that he would like to see curricula vitae supplied to the department.

Can the Minister indicate whether or not he is of the view that he should be selecting the representatives of those organizations, or that those organizations can be trusted to select their own representatives?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I asked the organizations to make recommendations to me of two individuals each, one rural and one urban, so we could attain some kind of balance on the committee when we select it. My intention is to select individuals from among the nominations from various groups I asked to nominate. At this time, I am not intending to go elsewhere for nominations for the committee, other than the chair.

Mr. McDonald: We will leave that for the time being. I would like to ask the Minister about a number of the questions he has addressed in legislative returns. He has indicated that the department’s position with respect to the Year 2000 initiatives and curriculum development is virtually identical to that which has existed in the past.

Is the Minister committed to the answers he made in the legislative return today, or is this simply a statement from the department that is the here-and-now? Is he planning any changes in that regard?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Perhaps the Member and I read the legislative return differently. When I signed it, my intent was that I support the current program in place in the schools today, subject to the education review, which is going to look at the curriculum. People may recommend that we proceed with some of the initiatives of Education 2000; they may recommend that we move away from some of them.

I did not want to prejudge the current program we have in place. I basically said that I support the programs being taught in our schools, subject to the review, and the review by the parents, teachers and others who are going to tell us what problems exist in the system. We will possibly change some of that when we get the recommendations.

Mr. McDonald: That was my reading of it, too. I just wanted to get a closer appreciation of what the Minister’s own perspective is. If he says that he supports what is in the legislative return, I will take him on his word.

The return that was tabled today, May 31, indicates that all Canadian jurisdictions are moving toward a continuous learning system, similar to the B.C. curriculum. Does he know that to be the case? Does he actually believe that to be the case?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: That is based on the best evidence that the department has supplied. I know that there are some questions out there now about the continuing learning system and whether it is working or not. That is the same type of question that some people may ask when we do the review. I thought that I left myself open in the legislative return to the fact that there are some very good things in the Education 2000 process, but there are some that some parents have real concerns with. That may come up for discussion and they may make recommendations on how to make it better.

I know that there are also some strong concerns now being expressed through the media in British Columbia on their program and the advanced program. I think that the legislative return sort of points out that we do have concerns with the advanced portion of the curriculum 2000.

Mr. McDonald: I wonder if the Minister would mind sharing with us what he understands to be some of the significant terms of the graduation program, so that we might be able to appreciate in the coming months that if there are changes to be made, we will know where they are coming from.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I will have to get back to the Member on that; I have not had a full briefing on the advanced program because we have been in the House virtually since I became the Minister. As soon as I get the opportunity to sit down to look at the program and hear some of the concerns from the various educators, I will be more than happy to share my thoughts with the Member.

Mr. McDonald: I think perhaps the best alternative for us would be to move that we discuss the education estimates in the fall, when we will get a closer appreciation for where we are going. I get the impression, as I read through a lot of this material, that these are old saws that I have seen before.

One that is new is the departmental reorganization. The return gives us some tantalizing previews of what may come about. It is not clear enough in my mind what is being contemplated here and, in order to give the Minister the spending authority, I think it would be reasonable to get a clearer idea of what the department has in mind in terms of departmental reorganization and cutting of administrative services.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: All we are really doing in this particular budget is to cut down some of the central office staff but maintain all of the support services for the schools, so there are no major changes in that. There are some changes in the policy and planning area and, when we get into the line-by-line debate, I can go into that for the Member if he wishes.

I can also tell the Member that I have asked the deputy minister to have a look at the whole department for areas of possible overlap with other departments in the government and in some of the services we are providing, as well as overlap with the Yukon College, and some other areas like that, that I think we should be having a look at.

No decisions have been made on a lot of those areas yet because the review is just preliminary right now and we are just looking at trying to reduce expenditures by reducing the costs of the main administration office over there and leaving the public school system untouched as much as possible.

Mr. McDonald: I think that, as a priority, resources should be expended in the classroom. However, what happens in the central office does impact on the education system. I will be asking the Minister to provide some detail as to what he anticipates taking place within the central office staff when we get into the line-by-line estimates in the operations budget.

The Minister indicated that he felt that there was overlap in various areas of the department and the government. Can he identify those areas? What has caused him to seek a review of overlapping jurisdictions in programs or services?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I just have a general view that the administrative part of the department has grown significantly over the years. I want to have a look at that and see how it operates. I believe that there could be overlap, in some of the work that we do, with Yukon College and the advanced education branch. It may be in the area of curriculum or the number of superintendents, senior managers, policy advisors and communications advisors we have and so on. I want to look at the whole department and see how efficiently it is running.

I think that is something that every new Minister who takes over a department should be doing. The Minister should be reviewing the efficiency of the department and trying to make it more efficient. No decisions have been made up until now, other than some reorganization in the central administration.

Mr. McDonald: I did not say that the Minister should not be more efficient or seek more efficiency in the department. What I did ask for were the areas of overlap that he had identified as existing between the Department of Education and other departments.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I just mentioned to the Member that we have 19 person years in advanced education, and we have Yukon College. I want to look at the services that Yukon College is delivering and those we are delivering to see if perhaps they can do more of the work we are doing. Perhaps there is overlap. I am not saying that there is, but there very well may be. Perhaps we should review that. If it has not been reviewed for some time, it should be. That is what I have asked them to do.

There are other areas we could look at, as well, in delivery of programs. I want to do that.

Mr. McDonald: Has the Minister been advised that there has not been a review of the jurisdictional responsibilities of Yukon College and the branch of advanced education?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: No, I have not.

Mr. McDonald: Well, apart from the desire to be more efficient, I am trying to determine whether or not the Minister has acquired any evidence to justify a concern about overlap, or is it only an economy efficiency drive that the Minister is promoting, with overlap as one consideration - if something happens it happens.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: It is my own initiative as the Minister, when I look at the number of people in the department, and I look at what we and the college are doing. I wanted to find out whether or not there is overlap. With the signing of the protocol agreement, with the three departments working together, I hope this will allow us to become more efficient in some cases.

We both assess children, and maybe it can be done by one agency. We have had duplicate assessments done in the past, and this could save the government a lot of money in future, if we look at these areas where we could possibly utilize the resources of another department, if they are doing a similar job.

Mr. McDonald: Is the Minister saying the Department of Health and Social Services and the public schools branch have done duplicate assessments on the same students?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding is there have been times when social services will do an assessment, we will do an assessment, and they have not talked to each other about it. It has cost money in both departments to have these assessments done on the same student.

I hope this protocol will alleviate those kinds of problems in the future.

Mr. McDonald: I will put the Minister on notice. While I will not pursue it now, I think there is much to question the Minister on in that particular regard, but I did not want to get side-tracked into that area. I think that the Minister is going to have to be very precise in his statements in future estimates.

I will either spend the next two hours on Education, or the next three months, Ione or the other. Perhaps what I will do is go down the list of questions as they appear on the legislative return, and compare them with my notes to ensure that no questions have been missed. I will also ask some questions to supplement some of the things that have been said here.

The Minister has indicated that there will basically be no change in the area of local curriculum development; that is, taking what is now provided by the British Columbia ministry and amending it to fit our needs in the Yukon.

There was local curriculum that was sponsored primarily by the department, in concert with CYI, to consider general changes to the system. There was also local curriculum, meaning school- or community-driven curriculum projects.

The budget clearly shows that there was, in some respects, a drop in activity here. Yet, the legislative return seems to feel that the same statements about commitment could be made, whether the budget is large or small.

I am not one who believes that. I would like to know what the Minister’s plans are about community-driven curriculum development?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I will just go through a note here about curriculum development. In 1992-93, the federal government, through the stay-in-school initiative, funded contracted services for curriculum development. The level of federal funding has been reduced, but the costs of operating programs developed such as MAD, ACES 11, elementary experience learning module, and GREM, have been included in individual schools’ operating budgets.

I believe that it was just a movement from one area to another. It is not actually a decrease in the budget.

Mr. McDonald: First of all, I have not been able to detect the cost recovery for the stay-in-school program. Is there going to be a cost recovery through federal funding?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, there is.

Mr. McDonald: How much is there going to be?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I have been advised that there was an agreement signed just recently for another $97,000.

Mr. McDonald: Is that the total for this year?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: It would be $97,000 plus the $69,000.

Mr. McDonald: Where is the recovery for this particular item shown in the budget?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The $97,000 is not in the budget, because it is a recovery of an agreement that has just been signed. The $68,000 co-operative education, page 106, is a recovery in that line.

Mr. McDonald: The line item, Co-operative Education, which was, as I understood, a separate submission put before federal authorities - I cannot remember when it was, but I remember seeing the application - was that supposed to be incorporated into the stay-in-school program?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I have been advised that the co-operative program is part of the stay-in-school initiative, and it is in there.

Mr. McDonald: I am a little confused, partly because I understood the local curriculum projects the Minister mentioned were rolled into departmental budgets. The cooperative education program is a very distinct initiative. I remember reading through the application myself. I am not certain as to where the funding the Minister has identified as being the now $150,000 plus commitment for the stay-in-school program is coming from. He has indicated so far that $68,000 of this $150,000 is for the co-op program. He has thrown in the music, art and drama program and the rural experiential model program as being items whose budgets have now been rolled into school budgets.

Is there some way he can clarify where all this money is, and where the money is coming from, and where the recoveries are? Presumably, if the budgets for the schools had been inflated to accommodate the programs, such as the MAD and REM programs, we would see an increase in the expenditure side, but we would have seen a recovery.

It would not have been possible or appropriate to inflate the expenditure side without knowing that there is going to be a recovery. Perhaps the Minister could clarify this for me?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I have been advised that we only get recoveries on the developmental side, not the operational side, of those programs. I can also tell the Member, if he wishes, that I will get back to him with a more detailed breakdown of the recoveries and expenses in that area. I understand that fall programs are being maintained at last year’s level. They have just been reorganized and moved around into other departments. I will get a detailed briefing for the Member, if he wishes.

Mr. McDonald: I would appreciate that. What I would like to do is return to the locally developed curriculum matter.

In the Education Act there is a line that states that the government will support locally or community-driven curriculum projects. There is a limiting clause in the act as well. In order to save the government the embarrassment of having hundreds of applications for many hundreds of thousands of dollars come forward, the total number of applications approved cannot exceed the amount stipulated in the budget. So the amount that is in the budget for locally developed ciriculum is a fairly important feature of not only the budget and the act, but of the government’s commitment to community-driven curriculum development.

I would like to ask the Minister the reasons for restricting or reducing curriculum developments that are community-driven initiatives. That clearly cannot be explained through the development of co-op education, stay-in-school programs, the REM, or any other program that is currently in place.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I wonder if the Member could point out where he feels the amount has changed for the locally developed curriculum, because I believe there has not been much of a change there.

Mr. McDonald: I will find it, but I will ask the Minister another question while I am looking for it.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: My understanding of the reason that has changed is because the bulk of the money in that line previously was the stay-in-school initiative, and it was federal money. However, it is not in that line any longer.

Mr. McDonald: I will let the Minister go back to the department to check things out. There are two different items here: there is the stay-in-school initiative, which involved something like $350,000 in the last year, which was cost recoverable. As I understand it, it is a declining scale of money over a number of years. We get less money this year than last year for various projects approved by the federal government that would be appropriate for encouraging people not to drop out.

There was, however, a separate item altogether. That separate item had to do with curriculum projects that might be promoted by communities. For example, the community of Pelly Crossing may want to put forward a portion of a science unit and incorporate trapping, or flora-fauna from their district. The costs associated with putting that together would be funded out of the curriculum development budget that is clearly identified in the main estimates. The reason why it is clearly identified in the main estimates is so that the amount identified can be the limiting factor for any appeals put forward under the Education Appeal Tribunal. The Education Appeal Tribunal has two major functions: the first is to consider cases of students who object to their individual education plan, and the second is to review the approval or rejection of proposals for locally developed curriculum. So, it ties together.

In any case, perhaps I will ask the Minister to review this once again and, if he can get back to me by the end of June or so, clarify where the stay-in-school money is projected to go, how the programs we have identified so far are to be funded, and from where they are being funded, and what money is remaining for locally developed curriculum in the budget.

If he could give me that commitment, then we will do something else now.

Hon. Mr. Phillips: Yes, I will make the commitment that I will get back to the Member before the end of June.

Mr. McDonald: The next item on the list is school calendars. The Minister has developed a couple of different school calendars for the City of Whitehorse. Can the Minister indicate - now that he has taken this move, which I am sure will satisfy many school councils - how he plans in the future to limit the request for new school calendars that may add to a number of school calendars in Whitehorse?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: This was one of those situations where you thought that you pleased everybody, but you still did not please everybody. Even in the decision that we made, which gave the school calendar to all the schools in Whitehorse that wanted it that way, there is still some discontent out there.

It did not work very well last year. A lot of schools did not get their calendar in on time, and the Minister imposed a standard school year on all schools in the Whitehorse area. It did not work very well this year as well, because we did not get a majority of schools selecting the one school year. So, this year I have granted the schools in Whitehorse the calendar that they wished. I believe that, over the year, it will actually save us a little bit of money in busing because the schools affected are not connected in busing. It will save us a little bit of money. It pleases all the schools this year.

In the letter that I wrote to the school councils, I suggested that we sit down and look at some way of coming to a better formula for the next school term. We will be consulting with the school councils over the next few months in trying to come up with a better formula for the future. I agree with the Minister that next year, I could get a dozen or so different school terms for Whitehorse and it would be very difficult to sort that one out. I do not want to get into that kind of problem. This year, evidently, it was not going to affect very many schools. The three that selected a different school year from the other 11 did not create any problems for the busing as well. That was the reason that we went with the school year.

Mr. McDonald: As the precedent has now been set, is it the cost of school busing that is the sole limiting factor in terms of offering different school years? What is the Minister’s intention in terms of limiting the possible changes for school years?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: No, it is not just busing. As the former Minister, the Member knows that an awful lot of factors come into play here. There are a lot of parents with children in different schools. When the school year ends at different times, it makes it very difficult for babysitters and such. There are a lot of factors that come into play here. What I would like to do is sit down with the school councils and come up with a satisfactory arrangement.

If we cannot reach a satisfactory arrangement, the only solution would be to go back to the solution that is in place now: if they cannot all agree on a different school year, they all get the same, standard school year. We may have to go back to that. Due to the fact that there was a problem last year, and again this year, I wanted to give them the opportunity to sit down with the school councils and discuss the matter, to see if we can come up with another solution. The only solution may be a standard school year in the City of Whitehorse. It does not seem to be a problem for the outlying communities.

I do not think that the Member would disagree with the decision we made on the Hidden Valley School. Even though it is within the City of Whitehorse, it is very much like the Golden Horn Elementary School, in that it services a small community out there on the Mayo Road.

Mr. McDonald: I think it is fairly obvious that setting school calendars has been a problem every year. I do not think the Minister is going to avoid problems every year that he happens to be Minister.

It is clearly the case that, in the rural areas, it is not a problem, because there is usually only one school per community. The possibilities of conflicting schedules when there is only one school is nil by definition.

The precedent has been set now. I think it is an obvious point that, when a precedent has been set, people will want it respected, irrespective of the Minister’s desires to go back to the beginning again.

Can the Minister indicate what sort of consultation mechanism he anticipates the school councils having to undergo in order to seek public opinion? I mentioned to him privately that the consultation has varied from council to council.

Ultimately, a question like this has to be answered, and it is clearly in the Minister’s court to answer the question; the Minister, by himself, will be responsible to the public for the results.

Obviously, one way to avoid a major embarrassment or concern is to have a consultation mechanism established up front, so that everyone knows the ground rules they have to follow in order to come to know what kind of a consensus they want to build.

Can the Minister indicate what thought, if any, he has given to this, and what his intentions are?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There are a couple of things. In the letter that I sent to the school councils when I granted them the school year, I clearly said that, although I did it this year, it was not to be considered a precedent. This was something that would not have a major effect on the school system this year, and we would allow it this year.

I also pointed out in the same letter a concern that the Member opposite just expressed about future consultation with parents. I hope that will be addressed when department officials, or I, sit down with school councils to discuss plans for setting out school calendars in the future.

I would also like to see some criteria that would be put in place to ensure that all parents, in all areas, had access to an adequate consultation process before they had a letter sent home to them from the school council saying here is the school year and here is what is happening. I would like to see some kind of process put in place to clarify that.

Mr. McDonald: Moving on to high school programming in rural areas, this is an issue in Pelly Crossing. The Minister has indicated that there is going to be grade 12 in Pelly next year, and the Member for Faro has asked about high school programming for his riding.

What is the limiting factor in determining whether or not a full kindergarten to grade 12 school will be provided in the community?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: There has been no policy change from the previous government on what we provide in the communities, as far as teachers and the grades.

I mentioned to the Member for McIntyre-Takhini and the Member for Mayo-Tatchun that we intend to provide grade 12 in Pelly Crossing next year.

I was really impressed with the graduation ceremony that took place there and the ownership that was taken by all the people in Pelly of the two students who graduated last week. We intend to continue with that program.

With respect to Faro, again, Faro is under review, simply because of the uncertainty of how many people are going to be there next fall, whether there will be one grade 12 student, 20, or whatever. We do not know the number as of yet, and I think that will have to take place near the end of this month to determine how many students are there and what programs will be provided to those students.

I think the Member understands that we can set some precedents in some of these communities, but we have to provide teachers in all of these communities.

Again, I want to tell the Member that there has not been a change in policy from the previous government, and we will look at each case individually, based on the criteria that was set out before.

Mr. Penikett: I wonder if I could ask the Minister what is the policy in respect to providing grade 12 to rural schools?

Hon. Mr. Phillips: The policy is the same as it was with the previous government, which is where numbers warrant.

Mr. McDonald: I will perhaps let the Minister come back with a more precise answer to that question. The policy of “where numbers warrant” is clearly a subjective judgment. I will let the Minister know, as I am sure he was made aware in Pelly Crossing, that there were some people in the department - who shall remain nameless - who felt that numbers did not warrant it in Pelly Crossing. There was a disagreement of opinion with the Minister, and in these particular circumstances the Minister won - a rare event but certainly much appreciated by the people in Pelly Crossing, as the current Minister knows.

It is not an easily answered question, but there are many things riding on decisions that the Minister may make, whether it is the provision of grade 11 or 12 in a rural community or a certain type of programming in a rural community that cannot be solved through creative recruitment.

Some of the most severe issues that the Department of Education has had to face over the last 15 years have all been about the provision of grade 11 and 12 in rural communities - when you do it and when you do not. The difficulty that has been encountered in the past is that when the department decides to pull grade 11 or 12 from one year to the next, it sends a very clear signal to every person in that community who has children that one cannot count on the school providing those services and they have to start making family plans to pull themselves or their children from the community. Consequently, the chances of the community having the numbers, even in communities the size of Mayo, Teslin, or Carmacks, to support a grade 12 are diminished by the simple fact that someone has pulled the service for a year or two - for very short-term considerations.

The same was true when the school busing service was pulled in some of the rural communities some years ago. In Stewart Crossing’s case, for example, when that school bus service was pulled for one year, three families left the community; the community has since become a community of singles and has not recovered over the last 10 years. So, the situation is something deserving of a lot of consideration and the commitment to provide a particular service should be made as far in advance as possible and, in my view, maintained as long