Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, November 29, 1993 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. We will begin with Prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed with the Order Paper.

Introduction of Visitors.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like to introduce Jennifer Jones to the House this afternoon. She is here from the Victoria Faulkner Women’s Centre, which has just opened in its new location at 408 Ogilvie Street. I would like to welcome her and extend an invitation on behalf of the centre to all Members to attend the open house today for the new centre, or drop by and see the new facility.

Applause

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Speaker: Under Tabling of Returns and Documents, I have for tabling the Report on the Study of Human Resource Management in the Yukon Territorial Government, prepared by the office of the Auditor General of Canada.

Are there any further Returns or Documents for tabling?

Hon. Mr. Devries: I have the strategic plan for Government Services, and a legislative return. It had never been officially tabled.

Speaker: Are there any Reports of Committees?

Petitions.

Introduction of Bills.

Are there any Notices of Motion for the Production of Papers?

Notices of Motion.

Are there any Statements by Ministers?

This then brings us to Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Waste oil

Ms. Moorcroft: Waste oil management has long been acknowledged as a problem in this territory, and events of the past few days show that the long-predicted crisis is upon us. There is nowhere for responsible people and businesses to put their waste oil. As if this is not bad enough, the City of Whitehorse and the Yukon government are each blaming each other.

In the absence of any government decision to implement a well thought out, long-term strategy for handling waste oil, could the Minister of Community and Transportation Services tell this House what short-term measures his department is prepared to carry out, so that the Yukon’s environment is not threatened by illegal waste oil dumping?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We have made an offer to the City of Whitehorse to assist with the funding of a truckload of oil to be taken to a waste disposal facility in the south.

Ms. Moorcroft: Could the Minister then tell me how they have arrived at this plan and whether the waste oil management group have been involved in this decision? How much is it going to cost and is this something that has been developed over the weekend or is it something that has been planned for awhile?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The waste oil disposal committee has been dealing with the City of Whitehorse for two years. This offer was made, I believe, in April.

Ms. Moorcroft: Waste oil is generated all over the Yukon by commercial and private users. It comes from cars, tractors, bulldozers, trucks, diesel generators and a variety of machinery. The Minister’s department, the Department of Community and Transportation Services, is directly and indirectly responsible for the generation of a great deal of the territory’s waste oil. What is the Department of Community and Transportation Services doing with its waste oil? Is it part of the problem or part of the solution?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We have converted an old tandem truck and lowboy into a tanker and we collect our own used oil around the territory. We have four waste-oil burners that we use to heat grader stations. That oil is distributed to those burners.

Question re: Waste oil

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like to follow up with the Minister of Community and Transportation Services on the work that they are doing to reuse the oil generated by Community and Transportation Services. Does the government make this disposal system available to the Yukon public?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: No, not at this time, because we generate enough used oil ourselves to supply the burners we currently have. We will be looking at converting to used oil for other stations in the future.

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like to remind the Minister that waste oil contamination is a very real problem here in the Yukon; one gallon of oil will pollute a million gallons of water; one quart of oil can produce a two acre oil slick.

Work began on developing a special-waste or hazardous-waste or controlled-waste - whatever term one prefers - policy and management system some four years ago, yet the current crisis shows that little, if anything, has been accomplished. After more than a year in office, can the Minister tell us why it has taken so long to achieve so little?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The special waste facility was never, never intended to handle waste oil.

Ms. Moorcroft: The only decision made by the current regime about special waste was to scrap the special-waste storage facility on the grounds that it was too expensive, which is a mistake of false economy that the Yukon public is now paying for. The Department of Community and Transportation Services was ordered by Cabinet four years ago to proceed with the development of a program for the locating, collecting, interim storage and disposal of federal, Yukon and municipal government generated wastes, and to make such a program available to the general public.

Why has the Minister, in the wake of his decision to not build a special waste storage facility, seemingly failed to even try to meet this directive?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I believe we have addressed that specific question. We had a special-waste clean-up in the Yukon in the spring of this year, and we collected three and one-half truck loads of material and shipped it to disposal facilities.

Question re: Waste oil

Mr. Cable: I have some further questions for the same Minister about waste oil. The Mayor of Whitehorse was quoted last week as saying that a gentleman’s agreement had been entered into between the government and the city for the storage of waste oil, on an interim basis and pending permanent resolution of the problem. Would the Minister outline for the House what this gentleman’s agreement was.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not aware of any gentleman’s agreement. I do not know between which parties this agreement was made. The City of Whitehorse and the used oil disposal committee have met continuously over the last year. It has always been the case that the disposal of used oil within the City of Whitehorse has been the responsibility of the City of Whitehorse.

Mr. Cable: For the record, and as has been put to the Minister in the previous questions, oil is collected from all around the territory - and I gather this includes oil from mining companies and other industrial operations. Is the government prepared to treat this waste disposal problem as a territorial, rather than a municipal, responsibility?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The oil generated within a municipality is the responsibility of the municipality.

Mr. Cable: That leads me to believe that the Minister believes that the source can be readily identified. That, of course, is far from the truth.

The Minister is also quoted as saying in the media that the generators of waste oil should ultimately be responsible for their disposal. Is the Minister prepared to put into effect regulations that will permit a user-fee framework to be operated by the municipalities?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The municipalities could charge for the disposal of used oil at this time under the Municipal Act. There are, however, regulations governing the disposal of special waste products that will be coming in. They are currently under discussion with all of the affected groups. My department and these groups are putting together a set of regulations at this time.

Question re: Waste oil

Mrs. Firth: I, too, want to follow up with the Minister of Community and Transportation Services about the waste oil issue.

My concern is that there be a practical solution that is quick and efficient. I would prefer to see the Yukon government take a pro-active position when it comes to dealing with this issue.

The Minister has indicated to us that regulations are presently under discussion. This issue is not a new one. I believe it was the subject of much discussion in the media no less than one month ago.

Can the Minister tell us today what his plan and time line are for dealing with this issue once and for all? How much time are we looking at before this issue is resolved?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The large generators of used oil are holding a meeting at this minute, along with officials from the City of Whitehorse and officials from my department. They will be discussing the responsibility for disposing of used oil and what we can do to address this problem right now.

There are groups interested in using the waste oil, and that certainly needs to be explored, rather than shipping the oil outside.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister still has not answered the question that I think all Members of this House and the public are concerned about: what is the Minister’s plan for this? Only a month ago, the front pages of the newspaper were covered with the problem of waste oil being an issue. What is the Minister’s plan? When is he going to have regulations in place? What happens next month?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The short-term plan is to essentially ship the oil south to be disposed of. The long-term plan is to have the private sector look after the disposal of the waste oil by utilizing the oil as a fuel.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us how he anticipates the private sector utilizing the waste oil as fuel? How is that going to work?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There are people interested in setting up large, waste oil burning furnaces for specific applications. There is one group that is interested in setting up a refinery, to refine the waste oil so that it could be used as number two stove oil.

Question re: Waste oil

Ms. Moorcroft: I would like to follow up with the Minister to see if we can get some clear answers to deal with this serious problem.

The Minister referred to a special waste clean-up. On Thursday afternoon when I was asking questions on that subject, the Minister did not indicate that any of the truckloads of material included waste oil. Can the Minister tell us whether any waste oil was trucked out at that time, and if so, how much and why is there so much waste oil left over?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Waste oil was not shipped out at that time.

Ms. Moorcroft: Since this problem has been developing for awhile and the Minister was aware that the storage tanks both in the City of Whitehorse dump and in a number of local businesses were becoming full, why were plans not developed to get the waste oil trucked out of here last summer when there was a special project to get rid of some of that hazardous waste?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The City of Whitehorse had made arrangements to ship out the used oil. For reasons that I am not privy to, they cancelled the truck that was scheduled to pick it up.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister and the department, I believe, have a responsibility to create a regulatory environment under the Environment Act. The Minister did not answer the questions that have been put to him about how they are going to speed up the time frame of dealing with this or whether they have any time frame at all. Could the Minister tell me how he is going to proceed with specific time frames on resolving the problem of waste oil around the Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There is a consultation process going on regarding the regulations that are being formulated, and my understanding is that the regulations should be coming forward sometime in the spring for Cabinet consideration.

Question re: Yukon Housing Corporation, focus group

Ms. Commodore: My question is for the Minister responsible for housing. Over the weekend I attended the conference, and I would like to commend the staff for their hard work in organizing the conference. I do have some questions in regard to the focus group. According to the Minister, the focus group was struck because the Yukon Housing Corporation board echoed the staff’s suggestion that the Minister request the participation of industry representatives. As a result, the AYC, the Chamber of Commerce, the Home Builders Association, the Real Estate Association and the banks each designated a person to represent them. Since the objectives of the corporation include a wide range of responsibilities, does the Minister not agree that this focus group represents only a small part of Yukon Housing Corporation interests?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would think that they represent more than a small part. We have people from the real estate industry; we have, as the Member said, the home builders - quite a few such people - on the group, and I do believe that, for the purpose they were asked to get together about, they did represent a good cross-section of people.

Ms. Commodore: The Minister’s focus group said they want to continue as a housing industry advisory group and the Minister has said that he will be formalizing the request. He mentioned that in his closing speech yesterday. I would like to ask the Minister if that will require a change in legislation.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not see why it should. These people would be strictly an advisory group to the board of directors and to myself.

Ms. Commodore: I would like to ask him if he could table in this House or tell us now what the terms of reference of this industry advisory group will be?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I will be happy to supply the terms of reference for the group as soon as they are completed.

Question re: Yukon Housing Corporation, focus group

Ms. Commodore: The Minister has stated that through this focus group he was able to get the views of the industry and it was clear at the conference this weekend that there were many differing views on housing. In addition to the industry focus group, is it the intention of the Minister to appoint other groups who would represent other interests of Yukoners who play a major role in the delivery of Yukon Housing Corporation programs?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We have advisory groups in every community that deal with social housing and staff housing units. The City of Whitehorse has the Whitehorse Housing Authority, which provides information to the board of directors and to me.

Ms. Commodore: We are talking about a group that is in addition to all of these other advisor groups that he has throughout the Yukon.

I would like to ask the Minister this: If he is not willing to seek advice from any other groups other than the industry focus group, how does he expect to deliver a housing program that is fair and suits the needs of all Yukoners? There is much more to housing that his department delivers than just the industry’s interests. There are many differing views, as we were made aware of during the weekend.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I have never said that I was not willing to take advice from other groups. Seniors, for example, have said that they want to be consulted on issues relating to them. We are certainly willing to do exactly that.

Ms. Commodore: It appears that the Minister’s focus group will be carrying a lot of power. I would like the Minister to tell me how that fits into the structure of the Yukon Housing Corporation. Right now, we have a housing board that answers to the Minister. Where does this group fit in, in terms of the structure of the Yukon Housing Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would see the focus group as providing advice to the board of directors and, on occasion, to me.

Question re: Workers’ compensation fund, stakeholders

Mr. Harding: I have a question for the Minister responsible for Occupational Health and Safety.

On Thursday, in the Legislature, the Minister said that the worker’s compensation fund belonged to employers and that he was going to protect them. I would like to ask the Minister a question about the compensation fund. Does he realize that the whole system of workers’ compensation was created to protect employees from lengthy and expensive court battles for compensation for work injuries, and that, in exchange for this, employers are protected from workers suing them for negligence? The employers, in essence, buy a form of insurance.

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I think most people who have been in the Legislature realize how hard I have fought for employees. In fact, I am one of the only people in the Legislature who ever got an amendment through - while sitting in the Opposition - in order to protect employees. Yes, I certainly realize it.

Mr. Harding: It is too bad the Minister has changed his tune since he went across the floor.

The Minister has said that the reason he decided not to do an efficient and thorough health and safety review was due to a draw down in the operating fund for Workers’ Compensation. Does the Minister realize that compensation paid out an increase of over $3 million in claims costs last year, reducing our operating fund to roughly $20 million, and that an in-depth health and safety review could identify serious preventive steps that would reduce injuries and costs for both employers and employees?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Yes, I realize that. I also realize that we had taken a smaller one in because we want to find out which regulations are acceptable and make sense, and which ones do not. We are talking with the stakeholders in the situation. The first review will cost $20,000. If they find they need another review after that, then more money will be put forward for that review.

Mr. Harding: The ministerial order that was repealed called for a full and complete review of all policies and procedures contained in the Health and Safety Act. The revised review will not, and I quote, “accept any recommendations made concerning major changes made to the intent of any section”. Who made this decision? Was it the board chair and the president, as the Minister has implied, or was it the Cabinet, as he has stated. If it was that Cabinet, what other measures for accident prevention are they going to undertake?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: The decision to restrict the money was at a time of constraint, and we expected everyone, including Crown corporations, to be in that situation.

Question re: Workers’ compensation fund, safety review

Mr. Harding: The Minister has stated that he reduced the scope of the review, because he wanted to find out what was missing, what was right, and what was wrong. Can he explain to me how, by narrowing down a review, he could possibly hope to find out what is right, and what is wrong?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: They will do a review. They will look through the regulations and then put them out to the public for a debate.

Mr. Harding: I am really disappointed in this Minister. I know he fought hard for workers’ rights, health and safety when he was on this side. He seems to be abandoning them very seriously now. Does the Minister not realize that it is more important to have an efficient and thorough review, than to have a cheap, cost-cutting review that really will not undertake to thoroughly examine some issues that could reduce costs and also injuries?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: I am surprised at that statement. Our rebates to employers have been fantastic. This means that they are listening, and working with occupational health and safety, and that accident rates are going down.

Mr. Harding: I happen to have last year’s Workers’ Compenstion Board report. Although the Minister is right, the merit rebates are going up and employers are getting more money back, the workers’ compensation fund paid out over $3 million more in claims costs last year. How does he reconcile these differences?

Hon. Mr. Brewster: Some of it is probably due to my intervention. For instance, they were deducting Canada Pension Plan contributions from workers’ compensation awards. If this House will recall, I got that rebated, which was costing them a considerable amount of money. I also worked very hard on the white finger disease, which we finally got through, and that was costing a considerable amount of money. These are things that are now coming into effect. New health issues that people did not know about years ago are now coming in and are therefore costing more.

Question re: Yukon Energy Corporation, privatization of

Mr. Cable: I have some questions for the Minister responsible for the Yukon Energy Corporation, regarding the privatization thrust.

There was some not-so-veiled criticism of the management of the corporation issued by the Yukon Public Utilities Board last week. I recollect the Minister talking in the House last week, and perhaps the week before, about an operational audit being requested by the Auditor General.

Could the Minister tell the House who actually requested this operational audit? Was it the Minister or the board of the Yukon Energy Corporation?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: If the honourable Member reviews Hansard for last week, when this question was raised, he will read that I stated that it was the previous administration who requested the operational audit, and there has been some correspondence between the board and the Auditor General - again, this was before we took office - and we intend to proceed with the audit.

Mr. Cable: When does the Minister expect that the Auditor General will actually carry out the operational audit on the management contract between the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company Limited?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I would like the audit carried out as soon as possible, but I am not certain what the time line might be.

Mr. Cable: On another aspect of the privatization move, the municipalities have, for some time, requested that the government grant them the authority to franchise the distribution of electricity within municipal boundaries.

Is the Minister prepared to meet with his colleagues and make the appropriate statutory amendments to permit the municipalities to franchise?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: We do not believe that the delivery of energy should be fragmented any more than it is now. The municipalities have certain rights and duties with respect to what they can ask of the utility company that retails electricity in the individual community, and I have suggested that they look at their existing powers under that.

Question re: Business incentive policy

Mr. McDonald: I have a question for the Minister responsible for Economic Development.

The interprovincial agreement on trades speaks to the removal of barriers to the free flow of goods and services between provincial boundaries. It is particularly interested in the rights of contractors to bid on a equal basis on projects anywhere in Canada. Can the Minister tell us whether or not the government agrees with this operating principle and practice?

Hon. Mr. Devries: As I believe the Member knows, we presently have an agreemen. We use the business incentive policy program to encourage Yukon contractors. We have to submit an annual report on that to the internal trade board. We presently still have that option available to us and we agree with it.

Mr. McDonald: The Minister did not answer the question. The business incentive policy is clearly not a bid-preference policy at all. I am asking whether or not the government agrees with the concept of no-bid-preference policies between jurisdictions as outlined in the interprovincial agreement on trade?

Hon. Mr. Devries: I would have to take that up with my Cabinet colleagues. That is not an answer that I could give at this point. I will take that under advisement.

Mr. McDonald: That is the one answer that one could find slightly irritating because, when one turns to the Government Services strategic plan, one will find in it the statement that the government wants to give Yukon contractors a preference in bidding on government contracts. That is clearly inimical to the principle stated in the interprovincial agreement on trade. Can the Minister indicate to us whether or not the government stands by the statement to give local contractors a preference and how they intend to accomplish that task?

Hon. Mr. Devries: It is through the business incentive policy that we will do this. Contractors will be eligible for a 10-percent rebate on Yukon hire and this gives them some advantages. We plan to proceed with giving those contractors those advantages.

Question re: Business incentive policy

Mr. McDonald: The business incentive policy is not a bid-preference policy. The business incentive policy is a policy in that it provides encouragement and an incentive to any contractor to use local labour and materials; it is not a bid-preference policy. Can the Minister indicate whether or not the government supports the concept of a bid preference for Yukon contractors?

Hon. Mr. Devries: We will use whatever means we have at our disposal to give preference to Yukon contractors. We are still restricted by the interprovincial agreement.

Mr. McDonald: I think it is the principles that are disposable.

What I am asking the Minister is whether or not he is supportive of the concept of a bid preference and if he is, how does he reconcile a bid preference for Yukon contractors with the terms and conditions of the interprovincial agreement on trade, which resists any concept of bid preferences?

Hon. Mr. Devries: In the discussions I have had with some of my other colleagues in the provinces, they feel that what we are presently doing is acceptable - I really do not know what the Member wants to hear from me.

Mr. McDonald: I am going to need at least three or four hours in Government Services just to be able to state the question so the Minister can understand it here.

The Government Services strategic plan refers to giving Yukon contractors a bid preference, meaning that at the bidding level Yukon contractors, by virtue of the fact that they are from the Yukon, will get a better chance of getting work than will the low bidder if the low bidder comes from outside the Yukon.

Can the Minister indicate how he reconciles that principle - the principle found in the strategic plan that he formally tabled today - and the principles that are contained within the interprovincial agreement on trade, which the Yukon is a signatory to?

Hon. Mr. Devries: The way I understand it to work, and this was signed under the previous administration, is that we have these exemptions, as far as the business incentive policy goes, and we have to provide an annual report to this group that is formed from within the various provinces; meanwhile, we are allowed to use that as an incentive to encourage Yukon contractors, or even outside contractors, to use Yukon labour. This is one thing that will be very important in the hospital job. That is the way I understand it to work.

Question re: Macaulay Lodge, available beds

Mrs. Firth: I have a constituency question for the Minister of Health and Social Services. During the last sitting of the Legislative Assembly, I asked the Minister a question about the eight beds that were being closed at Macaulay Lodge, when he announced the opening of the new extended care facility. It has been brought to my attention that there are six seniors on a waiting list, waiting to get into placement, who are being denied access to these beds because of budget considerations. Can the Minister tell us if he is going to review this and open those beds for the people who are waiting?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: The Member will be pleased to know that it is under study right now and we hope we can find the money within the department to open the beds at Macaulay Lodge.

Mrs. Firth: I am pleased to hear that because one individual in particular is being sent to the Thomson Centre for two weeks, to a respite bed, and then will go home and will go to Macaulay for two weeks, and I do not think that is a very good situation for a senior who is trying to keep their bearings.

Could the Minister tell us more specifically when these beds will be made available to these six people who have been waiting for some time?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I will make enquiries and get back to the Member.

Mrs. Firth: The Minister says that to me regularly when I ask questions. I wait quite a long time for his answers. These people are asking me, as their MLA, for answers as soon as possible. I wonder if the Minister could be more specific about this. If he has any trouble finding money, I can always help him do that.

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I am always delighted to lean on the Member for assistance whenever possible. I will certainly be able to answer her question some time this week.

Question re: Yukon Energy Corporation, operational audit

Mr. Cable: I have a couple of follow-up questions for the Minister responsible for the Yukon Energy Corporation on this operational audit.

Is the Minister prepared to hold back on his privatization moves until he Ihas heard the Auditor General’s comments on the efficiency of the operation of the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: There are no privatization moves at this time. I said I was inquiring into the issues surrounding privatization. As to moves, any move will be going to Cabinet with a paper for a mandate.

The Member found out about the privatization when First Nations people complained to him about a motion he tabled in the House that would have thwarted their chances to be partners in the Yukon Energy Corporation. He very obligingly withdrew that motion the same day.

Mr. Cable: The Minister is wrong on two counts: I did not hear from that group and I have not withdrawn the motion. However, I am very favourable to the involvement of the First Nations in the Yukon Energy Corporation. That can go on the record.

Is the Minister prepared to table the Auditor General’s report when it is received - the report on the efficiency of the operation of the management contract between the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd?

Hon. Mr. Phelps: I will look into the proprieties of it, but, at first blush, I have no objection to tabling the report.

Question re: A Yukon Resource Infrastructure Initiative

Mr. McDonald: I have a question for the Minister of Economic Development.

The government document, A Yukon Resource Infrastructure Initiative, their blueprint for economic success, was supposed to be a draft document going to public consultation shortly after the spring sitting. Can the Minister tell the House who the government consulted with on the draft document, when did they consult and when can we expect to see the final document?

Hon. Mr. Devries: We are presently having discussions with the Council on the Economy and the Environment on how we are going to work with them in coming up with the final draft.

Mr. McDonald: I will have to talk to the Minister during estimates debate about his interpretation of “going to consultation shortly”, given that there has been six months between the time that statement was made and the present time.

Given that two federal governments have seen this document and the government has now tabled estimates totalling approximately $600 million, can the Minister tell us why they have not yet finished the document or undertaken any kind of public consultation on it when they have clearly had lots of opportunity to do just that?

Hon. Mr. Devries: The only opposition we have had to the document seems to be from the Opposition. It has been very well received by the general public. I have had very few people ask me any in-depth questions about it. I do not think it is necessarily an urgent or pressing matter right now.

Mr. McDonald: The only public whom we have identified as having seen the document was the Chamber of Commerce, and they took pains to tell us that they had nothing to do with the document.

Can the Minister indicate whether or not the success of the plan, A Yukon Resource Infrastructure Initiative, is dependent upon federal financial assistance? Is the Yukon government planning to spend any money of its own toward meeting the list of items in the document that the government suggests are going to resurrect the Yukon’s economic fortunes?

Hon. Mr. Devries: One problem has arisen. As the Member very well knows, there are several major development projects on the horizon and we feel that we have to give them a little more time to see which projects are going to go ahead first, to decide where our priorities lie in the overall program. Yes, there will be some YTG money going toward it and I hope that there will be federal assistance going toward the various projects.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now lapsed. We will proceed to Orders of the Day and Government Motions.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Mr. Phillips: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order and declare a recess.

Recess

Chair: I will call Committee of the Whole to order.

Bill No. 11 - Second Appropriation Act, 1993-94 - continued

Community and Transportation Services - continued

On Municipal and Community Affairs Division - continued

Chair: We are dealing with Bill No. 11, Community and Transportation Services. Is there further debate on the municipal and community affairs division?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would just like to table a letter that was sent to the Mayor and Council of the City of Dawson. Last week, I had indicated to the House that I would provide information on the investigation into the sewer connection and disconnection.

Ms. Moorcroft: I thank the Minister for that and I look forward to reading the letter that was sent to the Dawson City Council. I was talking to some people from Dawson City on the weekend at the housing conference and there certainly are some large concerns about the problem there.

On Thursday, the Member for Riverside and the Member for Riverdale South were attempting to have the Minister table the strategic plan of the Department of Community and Transportation Services, but to no avail. I thought I would start by quoting the Government Leader who, in the House in the last session, made the statement, “if it is paid for by public funds, it should be public information.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the strategic plan. When is a strategic plan not a strategic plan? Well, it seems, when administrative changes are made by departmental officials without the deputy minister or the Minister knowing about them, as we were told last week. It also seems a strategic plan is not a strategic plan when the Queen’s Printer prints it without ministerial approval.

The Minister had several years of working experience in the Department of Community and Transportation Services prior to his election and his position now as a Minister. I had the opportunity to work for six months on a secondment as a policy analyst in the Women’s Directorate, and sometimes in a small department an employee can have opportunities that are not otherwise possible. I certainly learned a lot about the development of policy, programs and strategic plans, and the like, in government through that experience.

So, I am wondering if the Minister can tell me whether the strategic plan was reviewed by the Departmental Administrators Liaison Committee. Did the strategic plan go to the Policy Review Committee? Did the strategic plan get discussed by the Deputy Ministers Review Committee? There are many things in this plan that relate to other departments - in particular, transferring of arts, sports and heritage into Community and Transportation Services - which would affect the Department of Tourism.

There is also talk about transferring functions of the Department of Renewable Resources and the Department of Economic Development to Community and Transportation Services and/or Tourism. There are certainly a number of inconsistencies. On Tuesday, when I first asked the Minister to table the strategic plan, he indicated that there would not be a problem with that plan.

On Wednesday, he said that he did not have the plan and the plan had not been adopted or approved.

On Thursday, the Minister indicated that his executive assistant had the plan, but that he had participated as an employee and then as Minister in the plan. I would quote from the acknowledgements on page 2, which read, “More recently, the Minister, Mr. Fisher, and acting deputy minister, Mr. Cormie, declared full support of the planning exercise and also challenged the management team to complete the first draft by April 2 of 1993, and submit a report for ministerial Cabinet consideration.”

In view of the fact that the document says that the Minister supported it, and in view of the fact that the Government Leader said that if the document is paid for by public funds, it should be public information, I would like to ask the Minister if he is prepared to table the strategic plan of the department?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am still not prepared to table the community services community plan. As I indicated before, this is a working document and it is still in the process. I do not believe that it has gone to the Deputy Ministers Policy Review Committee. I think that some of the deputies have discussed the document, but I do not believe it has gone to the DMRC as of yet.

Ms. Moorcroft: What then is the Minister’s definition of “administrative changes”?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The changes that have happened in various areas of the department, not only community services, are all changes that can be done by the deputy minister. Those changes are what I would class as administrative changes, because they are under the authority of the deputy minister. Other changes, such as the possibility of splitting the department and creating two or three departments, would not be under the authority of the deputy minister, and therefore would not be classed as what I would call administrative changes.

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister explain this to me: we have established that the lands development branch, the planning unit, the tax assessment and property assessment units have all been transferred, effective July 1, 1993. Were those administrative changes?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Those changes have been and can be authorized by the deputy minister, so yes, I would consider those to be administrative changes.

Ms. Moorcroft: Those are fairly significant changes that do show a reorganization. They are also changes that are mapped out in the recommendations of the strategic plan that the Minister indicates has not been adopted or approved.

This just does not make any sense. Why have the recommendations contained in the document already been implemented if the document has not been approved? Why is it being used as an ongoing working document if it has not been approved by the Minister or the deputy minister?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The document the Member obviously has has been in process for, I believe, three years. There are some recommendations contained within it that are very positive and have been accepted by the staff in the branch, and by the administrative people, including the deputy minister, and those changes have come about. It certainly does not mean that all of the recommendations or changes contemplated by the document are agreed to either by the deputy minister or by me. There needs to be more discussion on those, some of which would need authority from Cabinet, rather than just the deputy ministers.

Ms. Moorcroft: I guess the changes in recommendations in the strategic planning document that have been acted upon have been adopted and approved. In fact, the Minister would have us believe that these positive, accepted changes are ones that the staff have wanted to see happen and that they have been administratively carried out, rather than having received political direction.

If the department goes ahead and implements more changes without, as the Minister would have us believe, either the Minister or the deputy minister knowing about them in advance, then would these further changes mean that the portions of the strategic plan that they represent would also have been adopted and approved?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The deputy minister was obviously fully aware of any changes that were made. The changes had to be initiated by the deputy minister. As to whether he received his information from the staff at large or from reading the document, I do not believe for a minute that he got his information just from reading the document; I believe it was from discussions at their staff meetings. Those changes, obviously, were approved by the deputy minister.

There have been other changes. I do not know whether or not they have all been contemplated in the strategic planning document. The fact that the deputy minister approved some changes does not necessarily mean that he approved the document; it just happens that some of the changes were contemplated by it.

Ms. Moorcroft: We are certainly getting some very inconsistent messages and responses here. I would ask the Minister if he would tell the House what changes he is contemplating in the department.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I cannot put my finger on anything specific at this time, but we are constantly looking at ways to reduce costs and improve service delivery and efficiency. I want to hear ideas and recommendations from staff on those types of things. As they come in, I will act on them.

Ms. Moorcroft: It is the Minister’s inability to come forward with specifics that is holding up the debate here. I would like to ask him for some specifics in another area. We were talking about the planning process in the Hidden Valley/Deep Creek/Hot Springs Road area. I think the Minister also referred to some local area plans for the Ta’an Kwach’an land at Lake Laberge. We are looking at Deep Creek, Shallow Bay, Mayo Road, Hot Springs Road and Ta’an Kwach’an - that is five committees or planning processes. The Minister indicated that he would like to see the department conduct this work. He also indicated that the process would get started in December - the first of December is in a couple of days - and that he hopes that something would be happening by May that would see the planning exercise culminate in at least some release of land at some future point in time - perhaps as early as next summer.

There will be public meetings and a consultation process with the planning people, and there are four or five neighbourhoods that are involved here. How does the Minister see the neighbourhood groups working together on common issues such as the effect of development on the size of the school population or garbage waste management? How does the Minister see these various planning processes and the neighbourhood groups working together on this?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The staff of the branch is putting a schedule and a process together on those issues. I expect to get something back from the department within the next week about how it intends to undertake this whole process.

Ms. Moorcroft: Does the Minister believe that he has set aside adequate funds to cover a legitimate land planning and consultation process?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, I believe that we have sufficient funds in the budget to carry it out.

Ms. Moorcroft: I believe that early last week when we began on this line item the Minister was going to provide a breakdown of it.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The increases are $141,000, which includes personnel costs consisting of public safety unbudgeted requirements for acting director for nine months, $59,000, and a casual clerk for six months, $25,000. Also, the Yukon bonus is over by $5,000; the sports and recreation community consultant has cancelled plans for seven-months’ leave without pay, for $32,000, and a data entry of $20,000 was made in assessment and taxation at the time of original budget input; $176,000 increase in sports and recreation grants and contribution payments; special Olympic contribution agreement for $21,000 has been transferred to community recreation from Health and Social Services; sports and fitness has received addition funding of $18,000, which is 100-percent recoverable from Yukon lotteries, and $138,000 for Arctic Winter Games travel to Slave Lake, which is 100-percent recoverable from the federal government.

The additional $45,000 increase is a result of electrical increases, broken into $13,000 in fire protection for the firehalls and $32,000 in municipal engineering in unincorporated communities for street lighting and water truck garages.

One hundred and forty-one thousand dollars is a result of departmental land claims officer moving to here from the deputy minister’s office, and $4,000 is the net of the increases and decreases of smaller items. That was offset by a reduction of $295,000 due to the grant-in-lieu being less than estimated, resulting from municipal taxes not being significantly increased across the territory.

Municipal and Community Affairs Division in the amount of $212,000 agreed to

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures in the amount of an underexpenditure of $323,000 agreed to

On Capital Expenditures

On Office of the Deputy Minister

On Emergency Measures

Ms. Moorcroft: Could the Minister provide a breakdown of the $199,000 supplementary estimate figure?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The increase is a $249,000 revote to purchase search and rescue equipment and supplies that were unable to be delivered by March 31, 1993, due to manufacturers’ delay and back orders. There is an offsetting reduction of $50,000 in reduced 1993-94 purchases of planned search and rescue assets such as a snowtrack vehicle.

Emergency Measures in the amount of $199,000 agreed to

On Communications

On Community TV and Radio

Community TV and Radio in the amount of an underexpenditure of $1,000 agreed to

On Computing Equipment and Systems

Computing Equipment and Systems in the amount of $1,000 agreed to

On 9-1-1 Implementation

Mrs. Firth: I have quite a few questions I would like to ask the Minister about the delivery of this service. First of all, perhaps he could indicate to us whether they are still on target with the date of having the service implemented in May of 1994.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The latest information from Northwestel was that we are still on target for approximately May 1994.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us how the user-pay system is going to work?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The user-pay is essentially for the capital cost of the system. It is going to be approximately 60 cents per month per customer, until the system is paid for, at which time the charges will be dropped. It also has to be approved by the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission, before those charges can be implemented.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us when that process is going to take place?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Northwestel has to apply for those tariff increases. The information I have is that they will be applying to the CRTC by January 30, 1994, with a request for approval by March 15, 1994.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us how long the 60 cents per month per customer is going to be in effect for? I believe he said it would be until the capital cost was paid for. How long will that take?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not exactly sure how long that will take. The CRTC will be approving the length of time the 60 cents will apply, or for the exact amount. I am not sure it is exactly 60 cents, but it could be up to 60 cents.

Mrs. Firth: Has the department done any preliminary figures, so they have some idea how this is going to work, or are they leaving it up to the CRTC? Do they have any idea of what the impact will be on users of the policy they have brought into place?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not have the information here on the estimated length of time the amount - up to 60 cents - will apply, but the survey indicated the people were perfectly willing to pay the 60 cents.

If the Member opposite wishes, I could provide a little further information on what we estimate for the length of time and the actual cost.

Mrs. Firth: I do not think that the Minister is correct in stating that people indicated they were perfectly willing to pay the 60 cents, because I do not think they were specifically asked if they were prepared to pay 60 cents; they were only asked if they were prepared to pay for this service.

I think the results of the survey indicated that people wanted the service so badly that they were prepared to pay for the service. I do not think that the Minister should take that as an endorsement from the public that they are enthusiastic about paying for this service. I think that the Minister should take it as a message that people want the service so badly that, even in tough economic times, they are prepared to pay for the service.

I definitely do want more information from the Minister before I am prepared to agree to the line and proceed further.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The amount was asked in the survey and 86 percent of the residential consumers and something like 83 percent of the business subscribers were willing to pay up to 60 cents. I will endeavour to get the full information package to the Member opposite.

Mrs. Firth: I will look forward to receiving that. I have some more questions that I would like to have the Minister answer first.

I would like to know how many Whitehorse businesses and how many Whitehorse residences have more than one telephone line.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not have that information. Northwestel, I am sure, has that information, but whether or not they would provide that information, I am not sure.

Mrs. Firth: This Minister and his government made this policy that the user would pay based on the number of telephone lines that a particular business or residence had; I would have expected that the government would have analyzed the impact that that was going to have on families and on businesses that have multiple lines.

I know families with children who have their own private phone lines, businesses have multi-lines, and I would like to ask the Minister what the impact is going to be on those businesses and families.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We knew the total number of lines, which I cannot recall off the top of my head, in the Whitehorse area, the area that would be affected by the 911. There was no analysis of how much it would cost each individual who may have two lines or a business that may have numerous lines. I do not know if that information is available from Northwestel.

Mrs. Firth: Does the Minister not think that maybe that is something that they should have taken into account before adopting this policy?

What it means is that some individuals and businesses may pay more than others. The service is based strictly on the number of users and the number of lines.

If there are dwellings that have two or three lines going to them, they are going to pay two or three times for a service or seven or eight times if it is a business. Some people are not going to be paying anything, but will be using the service. I want to ask the Minister why they did not take that into account when they were establishing this policy?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not really know of anyone with a telephone who would not be paying. I believe that anyone with a line would pay.

I can attempt to get some further information, but, again, I have to get that from Northwestel. The questionnaire will be provided to the House, not just to the Member opposite. People had the opportunity, at that time, to discuss it, and it appears to me, from the results of the survey, that people were in favour of having the service.

Mrs. Firth: I have been telling the Minister and the previous government for about three years now that people are in favour of the service. The Minister is not telling us anything new. We had a petition in the House with over 5,000 signatures on it. It was the Minister who decided to do another survey to see if people really wanted the service.

My expectation would have been that the government, and particularly the Minister, should have had all of the information I am requesting today prior to establishing this policy. I have always thought it could be perceived to be an unfair policy, because not everyone would be treated equally. I find now, in questioning the Minister, that he does not even know the impact it will have.

I would like to ask the Minister how many telephone lines the government has. Is the government going to be paying as a user for this service, as well?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not recall the exact number of lines the government has, but yes, the government will be paying for the service, just like everyone else.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell me if other levels of government, like the municipal governments, will be required to pay for this service as well? Were they consulted as part of this survey to see if they were prepared to pay whatever the rate is going to be - up to 60 cents a month?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There was a committee struck that had representatives from the municipal government on it, so they are quite aware of the initiative. I have not received any negative comments from the municipality.

Mrs. Firth: Is the Minister honestly telling me in all sincerity that they have not done any cost projections for how long this proposed tariff should be in place - this user fee? When I just do a quick calculation, based on a monthly fee of 60 cents, which is the maximum, and an estimated 15,000 telephone lines in the Whitehorse area, the revenues could be in the order of $108,000 a year. This, to me, would indicate that, in a couple of years if that was what the tariff or user fee was, the service could be paid for.

I would like to be able to tell Yukoners how long they are going to have to pay for the service. I do not want the Minister to tell me it is all dependent on the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission again. I want to know what kind of cost projections his department did - and he did - and what information he took to his Cabinet colleagues when they made the decision to impose the user fee on the residents of Whitehorse.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I have indicated previously that I would provide the information to the House. The Member opposite should be aware that when Cabinet considered the application it was after the survey results.

Mrs. Firth: I believe Cabinet originally had to make the decision to do the survey, so Cabinet must have been talking about implementing the 911 service prior to the survey being done - is that not correct?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Basically, there was a decision made by Cabinet to proceed with the survey. After the survey, Cabinet made a decision to implement the 911 service.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could tell us what prompted him to go to Cabinet to ask that the survey be done. Why did the Minister do that?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: As the Member opposite has stated, there was a petition with some 5,000 names on it requesting the service, and the committee that had been struck was recommending against providing the service. So, given those two opposing views, we took it to Cabinet so it could be discussed at that level.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister give us the names of the committee members and their titles?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not have any problem providing those names, and I will include them in information that I provide to the House. I certainly do not have them here with me.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us whether fax machine lines are going to be included in the lines that will be charged with the monthly user fee?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not have those technical details here with me, but that can be included in the information I provide.

Mrs. Firth: I just want it on the record, now that we have established all of the facts, that the Minister does not have the required information, yet he has gone ahead and established a policy - a user-pay policy - and imposed an additional cost on Yukoners without a thorough and complete analysis of what impact that is going to have on Yukoners - on families and businesses - in terms of cost. As a Member of this Assembly, and as a Member who represents a certain percentage of Yukoners who will be faced with this cost increase, I am completely opposed to the way the Minister has done this.

He has not done his homework. I do not know from whom he has taken his guidance, directions or instructions. He has not had the best interests of the people, the impact on the people, or the concerns of the people that he has been elected to represent, foremost in his mind. I want that very clearly stated for the record.

Ms. Moorcroft: I have some questions about the implementation of the 911 service. Many of my constituents live outside the Whitehorse municipality but are on the Whitehorse phone exchange. Similarly, in the Minister’s riding, people on the Hot Springs Road are outside the City of Whitehorse limits but still have telephones that are on the Whitehorse exchange. People who are living in Golden Horn or on the Alaska Highway are serviced by the Golden Horn volunteer fire department. They are not covered by the City of Whitehorse fire protection services.

The 911 service is supposed to provide the emergency response of ambulance services, fire services or whatever crisis that needs to be dealt with. Who will staff the 911 line? Where does it ring? Will the 911 centre have the ability to call out the volunteer fire departments in the areas where people are on the Whitehorse phone exchange but they are not able to use Whitehorse city services?

Another case in point would be someone living at Mile 12 on the Carcross Road who is on the Whitehorse phone exchange. If they need an ambulance service, can the 911 service dispatch an ambulance from Carcross, which may be closer than the ambulance from Whitehorse? Can the Minister provide some information on this?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The 911 service will be staffed by the RCMP. The service that we will have available in May is automatic number identification, where those people calling in on an emergency will have their number flashed up on a screen. The dispatcher will have to talk to the people and find out their address.

For the Mount Lorne area, the committee is working on a protocol agreement where the staff will call out the Mount Lorne fire department. The ambulance service is a territorial government responsibility, and it comes from the closest area, whether it is Carcross or Whitehorse. They will have protocol agreements with the various areas that have fire protection, for instance.

Ms. Moorcroft: For the Minister’s information, there is no Mount Lorne fire department yet. The Hamlet of Mount Lorne is working on that, so they must be working on establishing a protocol agreement with the Golden Horn fire department.

Will the residents in that area still have to pay a cost for the 911 number, if they are not able to use the services that are being offered by it?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Those are details that I believe will be in the tariff application from Northwestel to the CRTC.

Mrs. Firth: The $70,000 is to pay for operation and maintenance costs. Is that correct?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: No, that was to complete design and implementation of the 911 system.

Mrs. Firth: Where did this money go?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: It was spent to complete the design and implementation of the service.

Mrs. Firth: Who got the $70,000?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There is $35,000 to cover the cost of the purchase and installation of the telephones and interface equipment at the response agencies, which are the police, fire and ambulance stations. The RCMP will be the 911 answering centre. It is anticipated that the actual expenditure will happen in February/March of 1994.

The other $35,000 is for public awareness, and is made up of $9,700 for the survey that is already completed; $1,745 for a purchase contract with an advertising agency for graphic design services; and $23,555 to be used for a variety of public awareness activities, such as signs, posters, printed advertising, broadcast advertising, et cetera.

Mrs. Firth: Just so that I understand this correctly, was that last figure $23,550 for the public awareness activities? The Minister is nodding his head, yes, and that the figure is correct.

Is the Minister saying that none of this money is for the O&M costs? It has simply been $35,000 for a public awareness campaign? Would it not have been more prudent and fiscally responsible for the government to put that money toward a 911 service instead of an advertising campaign? I know it included radio ads to try and promote the idea of having one number for the RCMP, one for the ambulance and so on. Would the money not have been better spent put toward the 911 number rather than what seems to be an anti-911 service?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: This $23,555 has not been used yet. It is for when the 911 comes into effect - for putting up signs, posters and the like so that people will be aware that the 911 service is available.

Mrs. Firth: Could the Minister tell us how much was spent on radio ads to promote the other system? I heard the ads on a regular basis. I saw ads displayed, promoting the single number. Could the Minister tell us how much was spent in that activity?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We will try to get that information for the Member opposite. I think the Members opposite should be aware that 911 is not in all of the communities. Standardization of all those numbers across the communities required some kind of advertising campaign, whether there be 911 or not. The numbers were standardized throughout the Yukon. That is what that advertising was for. We will try and get an exact cost of what that was.

Mrs. Firth: I will look forward to receiving that information. Perhaps the Minister could tell us about this almost $10,000 that was spent doing the survey. It certainly did not cost me $10,000 to go and get 5,000 signatures on a petition. Can the Minister tell us how this $9,700 was spent? Did it go to a particular company? Who received the money?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The $9,700 went to the Statistics Bureau, which conducted the survey. I believe it was for staff time.

Mrs. Firth: Is the Minister saying that one government department had to pay another government department to conduct a survey, when that department is solely responsible for compiling statistics and conducting surveys?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Many areas of government bill other departments for work carried out on their behalf, and that was the case in this instance.

Mrs. Firth: Can the Minister tell us how much his government is planning to spend in operation and maintenance costs on an annual basis for the service, and whether or not the government is examining the option of having the user pay that fee as well? I would also like to know if the Minister is prepared to give us a commitment today that the government is going to continue to pay for the operation and maintenance costs?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: My recollection from the operation and maintenance estimates was about $120,000 per year is for the operation of the 911 system. It is the intent of the government to absorb that cost. Because the RCMP are handling the service and they will be billing the government directly, it would be difficult for Northwestel to actually apply the costs, because the service does not relate to actual telephone equipment that the telephone company normally charges for.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps the Minister could then tell us why Northwestel has to go to the CRTC to get the previous rate increase we discussed?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Any time there is a rate increase, regardless of the reason for that rate increase, they have to apply to the CRTC for approval.

Mrs. Firth: So, if the government decided it was not going to pay the O&M costs any more and the service had already been established, then Northwestel would have to look to the CRTC for an increase in order to cover the costs - or is that not correct?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: At this time, there is certainly no intention of the government not paying the O&M cost, but I am not sure how it would work. I am sure Northwestel would have to go to CRTC, but I am not even sure if they have the ability to do that, because it is someone else who is essentially providing the service. The RCMP are providing the service, not Northwestel. They have to put some equipment into their operation but they would not be providing the service, so I am not sure if they would even be able to apply for a rate increase to cover that.

Mrs. Firth: They would if it was determined that Northwestel was going to provide the service if the government withdrew its support for the service. It was always an option that the service be provided by Northwestel as opposed to being provided by the RCMP. Perhaps we will leave that for some discussion at a later date.

I would like to ask the Minister when he is going to bring the information that I have requested this afternoon back to the House.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: As soon as we are able to assemble it, I will have it back to the House.

Mrs. Firth: Perhaps we could stand the line aside until the Minister brings the information back.

9-1-1 Implementation stood over

On Corporate Services Division

On Computing Equipment and Systems

Computing Equipment and Systems in the amount of an underexpenditure of $5,000 agreed to

On Office Equipment and Furniture

Office Equipment and Furniture in the amount of an underexpenditure of $4,000 agreed to

Corporate Services Division in the amount of an underexpenditure of $9,000 agreed to

On Transportation Division

On Highway Construction

On Alaska Highway

Ms. Moorcroft: Are expenditures for the south Klondike Highway under the Alaska Highway or under the Klondike Highway line item?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: They are under the Klondike Highway line item.

Ms. Moorcroft: I will save my questions on that until we get to that line item. Does the Minister have a breakdown on the variables in the highway construction lines?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The $1,511,000 is due to an increase of $489,000 required on south Alaska Highway reconstruction; a $50,000 requirement  is for additional storm drainage on the Alaska Highway at the Two Mile Hill; $139,000 results from more waste excavation required than anticipated for construction at km 1180 to 1189; $300,000 is being expended on pit development and aggregate production in preparation for 1994-95 construction.

The reductions are a $2 million net surplus for north Alaska Highway reconstruction, km 1634 to 1966; a $3,900,000 surplus is due to contract prices being lower than estimated and slow progress made by contractors. This is offset by a $1,900,000 increase that created three new projects to stimulate winter employment.

Mr. McDonald: Can the Minister indicate to us what part of the $3.9 million was due to contract prices being lower than expected, and what part was due to the contractor being slow?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not have that information at my fingertips, but I can provide it for the Member opposite.

Mr. McDonald: I would like to know that. I would also like to know if the Minister would briefly explain a small discrepancy; I cannot figure it out, but perhaps the Minister would have a solution instantly. The contract lists that the Minister handed out a few days ago show, under Shakwak Construction, the Meziadin Power Corporation and Pelly Construction receiving $9.2 million and $8.4 million respectively. The list of highway construction projects that the Minister passed out shows that the Meziadin Power Corporation received $2.5 million, and Pelly Construction received $3.05 million for work on the Shakwak. What is the reason for that discrepancy?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I guess the brief answer is that they are two-year contracts, but we will bring back a breakdown for the Member opposite.

Mr. McDonald: I would like to have that information, because the information that the Minister has given to us already - this sheet that I am holding in my hand, entitled “1993-94 Construction Projects”, is a list of projects that, in total, does not add up to the money that has been requested by the government for this particular year for Alaska Highway Construction. Perhaps it makes a little more sense, given the statement in the contracts list that showed Meziadin and Pelly Construction receiving $17 million worth of work. If the Minister is now saying that is two years’ worth of work, then I am back to square one with trying to reconcile the numbers. Perhaps the Minister could come back with a more precise explanation of those figures for the capital mains. I did ask the Minister, last time around, whether or not the Saint Elias School addition renovation contract listed in the contracts list that he provided us was a mistake. I am presuming that it was. Is that correct? Would he mind saying that for the record?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, that is a mistake.

Mr. Chair, could we have a brief recess?

Chair: Would Members like to have a recess at this time?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: We will have a brief recess at this time.

Recess

Chair: I will now call the Committee of the Whole to order. Is there further debate on the Alaska Highway?

Ms. Moorcroft: On the construction of the Two Mile Hill, can the Minister indicate whether it is still in the plans to include a pedestrian walkway and a bicycle path as part of that new highway?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The bicycle path is already in and the sidewalk is down as far as the Industrial Road.

Mr. Penikett: Could I ask who designed the bicycle path and whether it was designed by a cyclist or someone who perhaps only remembers being one as a child?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The head of our engineering department is an avid cyclist and maybe he can give me an explanation of the those loops that I think the Member opposite is concerned about.

Mr. Penikett: It is potentially the subject of some comedy but I am concerned because it seems to me that there is some real prospect of some cyclist going down that hill quite fast and being literally unable, from the point of view of basic physics, to navigate those loops and the curves that  are presumably  intended to slow people down, but which, if addressed at any significant speed, will almost certainly see the cyclists leave the trail and end up on the sidewalk - or worse, on the road. I hesitate to ask the government to spend more money, but it does seem to me that in finishing the bottom half of the hill I sure hope that they do not replicate that design because, it seems to me, unless it has been too long since I last cycled, it would be a perilous trip going down that hill and encountering some of those roller-coaster loops, curves and squiggles that are built into the path.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I still cycle quite a bit and the brakes on my three-speed bicycle are not as good as they should be and it has left me scratching my head. I believe I will be asking the engineering people for an explanation of why they are there.

Alaska Highway in the amount of an underexpenditure of $1,511,000 agreed to

On Other Roads

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister provide me with a breakdown of the supplementary, please.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There was an increase of $30,000, which was a revote for work required on Big Creek Bridge on Casino Trail to meet federal land use requirements; $170,000 for engineering on the Freegold Road is required for preparation for reconstruction work in 1994-95, which is 50-percent recoverable from the Canada/Yukon transportation infrastructure program; offset by a reduction of $75,000 less required in miscellaneous reconstruction work for upgrading minor roads than originally anticipated.

Other Roads in the amount of $125,000 agreed to

On Campbell Highway

Mr. Harding: Could I have breakdown on that, please?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There were increases of $160,000 for reconstruction and BST paving for Watson Lake, km 0 to 50, due to the need for engineering design and pit development work in preparation for 1994-95. There was a reduction of $24,000 for reconstruction of the Faro to Carmacks section due to the final cost for BST and hydroseeding, which were less than anticipated.

Mr. Harding: There was $24,000 turned back. What was the $1,200,000 expenditure in that area for?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There was approximately $1,160,000 budgeted for km 0 to 50 and approximately $200,000 was for the reconstruction of the Faro to Carmacks section.

Mr. Harding: On the contract for that Faro to Carmacks reconstruction, was $24,000 of that $200,000 turned back or was the contract for $224,000 and only $200,000 spent? Exactly what happened?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: This was not a contract; this was done by YTG maintenance. It was anticipated to be about $210,000 and actually they turned back $24,000.

Mr. Harding: What is this government’s policy regarding the Campbell Highway? I have a bit of trouble identifying it. I see some work being done on the Watson Lake end of it from the Sa Dena Hes mine but very little capital work being done on the Faro to Carmacks end or in the Ross River area. What is this government’s policy regarding that area? We seem to have two different situations. On one end, in the Watson area with the Sa Dena Hes mine down, there seems to be some capital work; on the other end, with the Faro mine down, there seems to be very little being done.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There is base work happening on the first 50 kilometres of the Campbell Highway where the base is very, very bad, whereas on the other end of it, from Carmacks to Faro, the base is relatively good, but if the ore trucks start hauling in from Sa Dena Hes, something has to be done with that road. Something has to be done before the ore trucks start hauling again, whereas the base is good at the other end. It could be widened and surface material could be put on it, but the base is relatively good in the other area.

Mr. Harding: So, there was no surfacing work done on the km 0 to 50 - just base improvement, for all the capital expenditures?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The first phase of that contract will be for base work. Eventually, we want to bring it to a BST grade and put BST on it.

Mr. Harding: So, there has been no money voted, thus far, in this capital budget and the supplementaries for anything other than base work for that stretch of highway.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There was a repaving of the first 10 kilometres, from Watson Lake to the airport. It was paved approximately 17 years ago, and this was repaved this past summer.

Mr. Harding: I am trying to understand the government’s philosophy regarding its developmental road work - I guess that would be the way to describe it. I have heard a lot from the government about roads to resources, and about having a good system of roads in place, improving our transportation links and having the infrastructure in place so that, should a mining company come along, it will be able to see what the infrastructure in the area has to offer, be quite taken with it and develop its mining property in that area.

However, in terms of action in the area so far, at least between Faro and Carmacks on the Robert Campbell Highway, I see that the mine has gone down and all capital expenditures in that area of the highway have been curtailed or eliminated. Is it the philosophy of the government that they would continue to build the infrastructure, develop it, put BST down, or whatever the case may be, only when there is an operating mine, or would it be their philosophy to continue to upgrade the transportation links for the future?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The difference is that the first 50 kilometres - I believe I have already said this - from Watson Lake to km 50, has required some fairly major base work. Whereas from Carmacks to Faro, the base is relatively good. There has been about $8 million spent on that, from km 427 to km 462. Over the long term, depending on funding, et cetera, it would require probably something in the neighbourhood of $35 million to totally reconstruct and bring that highway up to near the Alaska Highway standard.

Mr. Harding: What I would like to know is more in the line of a policy, or the Minister’s philosophical outlook on it. Would he be in favour of continuing to further upgrade, or would he take the position - as he seems to be doing now - that the base standard would be the end of the road as far as upgrading, until there was development on that highway?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: If the highway base is good and the service is relatively good, I cannot see, given the traffic counts we have on it now, doing any more capital work. I believe in ongoing maintenance to retain what we have there. It would not make a lot of sense to spend a lot of capital monies at this time. If the ore haul resumes, then I would expect that, over time, we would have to continue to do capital work on it.

Mr. Harding: The key word in what the Minister just said to me was “major” capital works.

I would like to tell the Minister something and I hope that he remembers it. I have met with representatives of Faro and Ross River, and they are really, really hurting right now. There is not a lot of work in that area.

One example that I have brought to the government’s attention is the situation of a lodge operator on the Campbell Highway who got just enough business to survive from the territorial government through meals and through the rooms being used. With the capital construction cutbacks in the area, and the lack of government activity on the highway, she is now being threatened with foreclosure on everything that she has built. This is very disheartening to see, and she is certainly quite bitter about the situation, and as the Minister knows I am not happy about it.

The government has said that they realize their impact on the economy can be felt in a multiplying way. An expenditure that they make can create economic activity for quite a few people. I would like to ask the Minister why the same sort of philosophy cannot be carried through to the Faro/Ross River/Little Salmon area.

The government said that they would not undertake any major, capital construction, but there does not have to be a $32 million job on the Campbell Highway to create some economic spinoff for Faro, Ross River and the Little Salmon area.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I can certainly understand the Member opposite for being concerned about his community and the economic spinoff, but we do have a very difficult time priorizing our diminishing funds. We do have some major work that has to be done on the Klondike Highway that we were not able to do this year. We have other major work around the territory and it was just a matter of priorizing where we are going to direct our capital dollars.

We have to look at the traffic counts for various highways and the ongoing usage of those highways.

I can certainly understand the Member’s opinion, and I will certainly keep it in mind.

Mr. Harding: I have received some responses from the department, signed by the Minister, about these matters. These responses do indicate sympathy and give brief explanations why decisions have been made as they have; the Minister just mentioned traffic counts as a reason.

Expenditures are created or developed as job creation initiatives to derive some economic benefit for particular areas throughout the Yukon - such as the initiatives accompanying the supplementary budget would have us see and believe - and when there are needs in every community, why would the people who live in the areas of Little Salmon, Faro and Ross River be given such a low priority?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: All of the work that is in that document - I forget the title - for highway capital construction is work that will have to be done next year or sooner. A lot of that money is advanced; we spent it this year and therefore likely will not have to spend it in future years.

The people in Faro and Ross River are certainly encouraged to apply for jobs that may be created by any of this work anywhere in the territory.

Mr. Harding: I often get that line from the government: the people from Faro, Ross River, Little Salmon or whatever are able to apply, but could the Minister tell me how, for example, Lena at Lena’s Place - who operates a lodge - can benefit from the Shakwak project, if in fact that is the design of this job creation plan?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I doubt very much if the lady at Little Salmon is going to directly benefit from work on the Shakwak project. However, I do not believe that if a business in Whitehorse is failing, it is our responsibility to make sure it does not.

Mr. Harding: It is the responsibility of government to use public expenditure in the wisest manner possible. The government has stated publicly that it will create as much economic growth as possible and a positive climate for investment, and use public expenditures in a manner that spreads the money throughout the communities for everyone’s benefit. It just so happens that, had that been done, it might have kept this person’s head above water. I do not say it is the responsibility of the government to bail out one specific business in that manner, but what I am saying is that it is the responsibility of the government to spread their expenditures out to give some benefit to all the communities, especially when they profess that their expenditures have been doing just that. Would that not be a fair statement?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I believe that the expenditures have been spread around the territory as much as possible. It is unfortunate that there is nothing there in that section of road that will help that particular business. I do not believe it is totally the responsibility of the Yukon government. Things had to be priorized and there is some work in the Ross River area, and people are encouraged to apply for any of the jobs, wherever they are created.

Mr. Harding: I look in the budget and, in this job list, I see about $30,000 for brush control in the Ross River area. Is the Minister saying that people from Faro could go work on that project and should go work on that project?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I understand that that job is now completed. It was completed by people in the area who were on our casual list. They were people who had worked for us before on a casual basis and they were given first opportunity.

Mr. Harding: I will not belabour this, but I do think it is important. I would hope that the Minister would realize that there is a practical element to their argument that everyone in the Yukon is eligible to bid on a lot of these jobs.

They have made expenditures in a lot of the communities but not very much in the Little Salmon, Ross River or Faro area. That makes it somewhat impractical for everyone in those communities to branch out into these other jobs for reasons that I indicated to the Minister before - for example, the brush clearing. I can imagine that the people in Ross River would not have been too thrilled about a bunch of people from Faro doing that job.

I would say - I am not speaking for them - that they have their own unemployment problems too, and the two communities have been working to try and do some things together. I would say that it is not that simple - that an entire community could pick up and go work elsewhere - especially when contracts are being given to companies like Pelly Construction, who have their own workforce to begin with.

There is something to be said for spreading business around. There are people in Faro, such as a small contractor named Ed Lambkin, who has survived there for 19 or 20 years, and is now only working small contracts. I am not too sure how busy he has been lately. I am not sure that he has been able to get much work. I have seen him work at the airport. It is unfortunate when someone who has been earning a living there for that long has to consider leaving his community - he has been through the good and the bad times - as there are now expenditures being made in the area.

I would just say that I would hope that, when making these expenditures, the Minister would consider how much limited expenditures by the government can help these different communities and the small contractors in the area. I would hope that, in future expenditures, those are given some consideration, as well as the real impacts. I sat at a table with Lena at her place; I have watched her build it for the last five years. I watched her cry as she talked about losing the business, and she showed me a note from the bank saying they are going to foreclose on her. It was pretty heart-wrenching. She never received a lot of business from YTG, but it was just enough to keep her going. I do not say that the government is solely responsible, but I do say that, when they profess to spread expenditures around, they should just think about people like that who either benefit or are hurt by the decisions they make.

Campbell Highway in the amount of $136,000 agreed to

On Top of the World Highway

Ms. Moorcroft: Could the Minister tell me what work has already been done on the Top of the World Highway, and also what the reduction is?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I will give the Member the reduction now, and then we will try to dig up the information for what has been done. The $290,000 reduction was for reconstructing km 0 to 105, due to a slight downscaling of road reconstruction and lower construction contract prices than originally estimated. Of this project’s $950,000 budget, $437,000 is recoverable from the federal government. This recovery does not include engineering costs, which will have to be borne by transportation and engineering. I will try and get the whole amount.

I will report on that total in a moment.

The $950,000 is road reconstruction, km 0 to km 105. We had it budgeted at $1,240,000 and there has been a reduction down to $950,000 - $437,000 of which is recoverable.

Ms. Moorcroft: Has this work all been done by contracts, or has it been done by the government workforce?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: That was done by contract.

Ms. Moorcroft: Is there any way of knowing, generally, whether the amounts in the capital expenditures are slated for work by contractors or for work by the department the Minister is responsible for?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Highway construction in the capital budget is generally done by contract. There are some engineering costs, and so on, that are done in house, but generally the numbers there are for contract work.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister stated there was a downscaling of the road reconstruction project for the Top of the World Highway. Can he indicate whether the road will be done to a lower standard for the 105 kilometres, or whether they are going to reduce the number of kilometres they work on?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The downscaling was not in the level of the highway we were building, but in the length of it. Also, the contract prices came in at less than originally estimated.

Top of the World Highway in the amount of an underexpenditure of $290,000 agreed to

On Klondike Highway

Ms. Moorcroft: Just a few minutes ago, the Minister referred to major work on the Klondike Highway that they had not been able to do. What could they not do, and why?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There is some capital work at the far end that needs to be done quite badly: from the Flat Creek Hill on into Dawson. I am not exactly sure, but it is approximately 40 kilometres that quite desperately needs some capital work.

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister begin by providing an explanation of the $211,000 that is budgeted in the supplementary?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There is $107,000 for spot reconstruction paving, Whitehorse to Fox Lake - a revote of $93,000 for work not completed prior to 1992-93 winter shutdown, subsequently increased by $14,000 due to engineering costs associated with supervision of the carry-over work; and $104,000 for reconstruction at the Flat Creek area - a revote of $38,000 for work not completed prior to 1992-93 winter shutdown - and $66,000 more was required for installation of an additional guard rail and engineering costs for supervision of the work.

Ms. Moorcroft: Is it anticipated that all this work will be done?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, I believe the work has been completed, as we speak.

Ms. Moorcroft: I have a further question regarding the employment task force savings that were identified. Perhaps I will start with this question: the Minister indicated that these supplementaries are to the period 5 variance. What is the effective date of the period 5 variance, and what is the effective date of the employment task force savings?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Period 5 is to August 31. I believe the employment task force figures went to September 30. The supplementary was modified to include those numbers.

Ms. Moorcroft: So, there is a one-month difference between the period 5 variance date of the supplementaries and the employment task force savings and capital projects, but the supplementaries have been adjusted to include the employment task force money. The Minister is nodding his head to indicate yes.

The employment task force savings identified a reduction in budgeted expenditure on the South Klondike Highway of $410,000. What is being reduced, when will it be reduced, and how does this fit in with the statement the Minister just made that all the work on the Klondike Highway will be done?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The $410,000 was from the operation and maintenance savings because of the agreement with the Alaskans. It is in this supplementary. We have already dealt with it, and it is as a result of the cancellation of the South Klondike Highway agreement.

Ms. Moorcroft: How much will be paid for maintenance of the South Klondike Highway over the winter months?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The net amount is about $1 million.

Mr. Joe: I would like to know this year’s plans for Tatchun Hill. There are many people who travel that road during the winter. It becomes very slippery, and there is a guardrail on only one side. On the other side, there is drop of 200 to 300 feet.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I will have to take the question of the guardrail under advisement, because I am not sure if it is in the 1994-95 capital budget or not.

Klondike Highway in the amount of $211,000 agreed to

On Dempster Highway

Mr. Penikett: Mr. Chair, I know that as Chair you cannot ask questions, but I want to ask a question related to the Dempster Highway.

Recently, when I was in Old Crow there was a fair amount of concern in the community and talk going around - I think even fear - that someone was actively promoting the construction of a winter road into Old Crow.

I cannot claim to speak for the community - the Member for Vuntut Gwich’in does that - but because so many people expressed concern to me, I would like to ask what the policy and intentions of the territorial government in respect of a winter road are? I understand a contractor or two have been around pushing the project, and I would like to know whether the territorial government intends to put any money in it. Secondly, if it does, does it intend to do so before or after consulting with the people in that community?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I have also heard some rumours, but we do not have any plans at this time. No one has actually approached us directly about putting a winter road in. I have heard about it but we do not have any plans to do it at this time.

Mr. Penikett: This is a supplementary question, and I apologize to the Minister for asking this, but I have had experience of seeking assurances from Ministers in the past, only to discover that the assurances were only temporary, so I want to find out if this has been the matter of some discussion, either in the department or at the ministerial level, and, even though plans do not exist now, whether this is an option that will be addressed by the government in coming months or not.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I would expect that if the community wants us to investigate the possibility of a winter road in future years, I think, yes, we would certainly look at the feasibility of it, the cost and so on. But again, we have not had any direct representation yet to do that sort of feasibility study.

Mr. Penikett: The Minister diplomatically inverted the intent of my question. I want to ask him what the department will do, faced with opposition from the community. Will the department consider proceeding even if the community expresses itself strongly in opposition to such a project?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The answer is that certainly we would not proceed without the community being on side. If they definitely did not want a road, I cannot see how we would carry on.

Could we have a brief recess, Mr. Chair?

Chair: We will take a five-minute recess.

Recess

Chair: I will now call the Committee of the Whole to order. Is there any more discussion on the Dempster Highway?

Mr. Penikett: My colleague, the Member for Tatchun, was just mentioning to me that one concern of people who travel the Dempster Highway a lot is the provision for emergencies on the highway - places to turn off and emergency stops. Has the Minister had any discussions about that issue? Have there been any representations from people about that question?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: No, I have had no representation, nor have I discussed it with the department.

Mr. Joe: I have travelled the Dempster Highway a lot in the fall and winter months, when it gets cold and windy. It is hard out there. I do not know how people travel it. When the temperature is 20 to 25 degrees below zero, the winds take the temperature to 40 degrees below zero, or colder. I would like to know if there are any plans in the case of emergencies for people who travel, in case their vehicle freezes up, or something. There should be a place where they can warm up.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We do not really have any plans for shelters. I think that anyone travelling the Dempster in the winter - in fact, some of the south Campbell Highway is similar in that it has very little traffic and long distances - should phone and let people know that they are on the highway, in situations such as those the Member opposite talked about. I think that it would only be wise to let people know when you are leaving and what time to expect you, because we do have people at the Eagle Plains camp, who can go out in emergency situations to assist people.

Mr. Joe: I am not talking about building something big - a small shack with a wood stove would do. I do not think it would cost that much.

It is quite a long distance from the first government camp at Ogilvie to Eagle Plains.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Again, where do you put the warm-up cabins? Constructing these types of cabins have been tried in other areas, and the cabins have been vandalized very quickly.

It is difficult to determine where to construct these sites and to determine the number. I think that it is a very big expense and whether there would be actual benefits or not, I am uncertain. Again, I think that people should phone and let other people know when they expect to be arriving. If someone is past due, someone from the Eagle Plains camp could be dispatched to try and help them.

Dempster Highway in the amount of an underexpenditure of $13,000 agreed to

On Division Facilities

On Office Accommodation

Ms. Moorcroft: Where is the office accommodation here?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: It is for the installation of a barrier-free washroom at 201 Range Road and to paint the lab.

Ms. Moorcroft: What lab is that? Is it also at 201 Range Road?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, it is. It is the soils lab.

Office Accommodation in the amount of $20,000 agreed to

On Transportation Regulatory Facilities

On Weigh Scales

Ms. Moorcroft: Does the Minister anticipate any further work on the weigh scale?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There will be work done in the fiscal year of 1994-95, but it will be under this contract.

Ms. Moorcroft: Has the Minister signed any contracts for the work that has been done to date?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes - Ketza Construction has the contract for the construction of the weigh scale.

Ms. Moorcroft: Is any further expenditure anticipated, other than the $800,000 shown here?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I will give an estimated total. The main contract for both years is $870,000; the engineering, which is in house, is approximately $65,000; consultation contracts is $55,000; for a total of $990,000. There is other work to be completed in 1994-95 that is not part of the contract, which will include the relocation and setup of the scale itself - the weigh scale structure, and the establishment of lights, plugs, fixtures and signage outside the scale house. This is estimated at $50,000.

Ms. Moorcroft: So, there is only $800,000 total in the revised vote to date but the Minister is saying that another $70,000 will be spent during this year - is that correct? Perhaps the Minister could also explain the Ketza Construction contract amount for land site development, weigh station, of $869,250.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The 1993-94 work is $465,000; 1994-95 is $405,000, for a total of $870,000. That is the Ketza contract the Member opposite referred to. Because the contract was not let or awarded until October, we are going to be short about $70,000, and another $50,000 will be in the capital budget for 1994-95.

Ms. Moorcroft: Will the Minister be revising this line item in the supplementaries then, or is it to be covered in the next supplementary or the next budget? The contract has already been awarded.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: We would catch that in the next supplementary.

Ms. Moorcroft: Just to clarify it, the line item is for $800,000 total and the contract was awarded October 29 for $869,250. Has the full amount of the contract been paid?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: No $465,000 will be paid in 1993-94 and $405,000 will be paid in 1994-95.

Ms. Moorcroft: Can the Minister comment on rumours that they plan to build a jail next to the weigh scales?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not aware of that rumour and I hope they do not want to build it on our property.

Weigh Scales in the amount of $450,000 agreed to

On Aviation

On Airstrips

Ms. Moorcroft: Could the Minister provide a breakdown for this?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The increase is $18,000 for the Haines Junction airport. Of the $42,000 revote, $23,000 will be required for the completion of the passenger cargo shelter signage, lighting and drainage work. The project is 100 percent recoverable from Transport Canada. There is a slight reduction of $5,000, as seating is not required. The $90,000 for the Carmacks airport is a revote of $87,000, and $3,000 in additional funding, to complete visual aids and terminal building construction. Again, that funding is 100 percent recoverable from Transport Canada.

There is also a $5,000 net decrease of smaller items.

Airstrips in the amount of $113,000 agreed to

Chair: At this point, the total will not carry, because we have one line item stood over.

On Municipal and Community Affairs Division

On Land Development

On Residential

Ms. Moorcroft: Under general debate in land development, could the Minister give us his response to the issue that was raised at the housing conference this weekend, where it was clear that there was no consensus on whether or not it is desirable to privatize land sales? The privatization of land sales was one of the issues that was discussed at length in the strategic plan of the Department of Community and Transportation Services.

I would like the Minister to indicate what his policy is on that.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Again, I was quite interested in hearing the many comments that were made at the housing conference. At the workshops I attended where this was discussed, it seemed to me that there was a split pretty well down the middle on the privatization of land development.

Our main concern here is to keep an adequate and affordable supply of land.

I still want to look at privatization as means of achieving that goal. Again, if there is not a net cost benefit to keeping land affordable and in adequate supply, we will not get into that. I think that there still needs to be further work done on the feasibility of private development.

Ms. Moorcroft: When we were discussing this earlier, I asked the Minister what he thought about the idea, since he had suggested providing land to private developers at no cost so that they could compete on the same basis as the government. I asked the Minister if he would also support providing land to the private citizen at no cost so that they could get into the market place on the same basis as the government. Does the Minister have an answer to that question?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: If we were going to look at private land development, I think that we would want to request some proposals from interested people, and have a look at them. I am not certain how we are going to go with this. I want to discuss it a lot more with my own department, with the Housing Corporation and so on. We did have one private land development that the city undertook, and it appears that the prices came in quite a bit higher than they would have if the Yukon government had undertaken that land development. That is not in our best interest. I cannot give the Member opposite a definitive answer about what we are going to do, other than to say that we are going to review all of the possibilities.

Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister is indicating that he does support privatization, and that he is going to discuss it with his own department. Could the Minister then give an undertaking that there will be no further changes or departmental reorganizations, as outlined in the strategic plan of the department, until those discussions have taken place, and until there is a strategic plan that the Minister can acknowledge that he has been part of and accepted.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not know exactly what the Member opposite is referring to, but I think there will be ongoing changes in the department. I think there will be administrative changes, and I do not want to give a commitment to the Member opposite that nothing will happen until this particular thing has been fully discussed. There may very well continue to be some changes in the department.

Ms. Moorcroft: I do not understand how the Minister cannot know what I am talking about. We have spent a considerable amount of time debating this issue, and he should understand what is going on here.

The Minister has tried to say that it is simply an administrative change and that there was no way that he was aware of it before it happened or advised of it when it happened - that four different sections within the Department of Community and Transportation Services have been moved around. We have gone over that at length. I am still of the view that those are not minor administrative changes, but that they were changes that were made that matched up with the recommendations that were given in the strategic plan that the Minister has indicated he did not adopt or accept. I am just asking him to indicate to us that there will be no further recommendations of the strategic plan enacted until the Minister can indicate that he is accepting that particular document.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Again, I do not know exactly what recommendation the Member opposite is getting at. Maybe what she is getting at is that the Member opposite does not want me to permit the privatization of land as an administrative action. If that is what the Member opposite is actually getting at, I think it is a political decision and would not be made by the administration.

Chair: The time being 5:30 p.m., we will recess until 7:30 p.m.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order.

We will continue discussion on municipal and community affairs division.

Mr. Cable: I believe that there were some general questions on land development, but I am wondering if the Member for Mount Lorne was finished with her questions, because I have some further questions.

Ms. Moorcroft: I am going to be intrepid and ask this question until I get an answer. The Minister seems to have difficulty understanding what I was asking, so here I go again.

I asked the Minister before the break if he would give a commitment regarding the recommendations contained in the strategic plan, which the Minister has said is not approved or adopted. The Minister has also said that this is a document that he has seen, but not seen, read, but not adopted.

I was not asking for one specific recommendation - for instance the recommendation to devolve land development to the private sector - to be set aside until the strategic plan was adopted. There are dozens of recommendations in this document, including the recommendations that have already been followed of moving around various sections within the department to other sections.

I am asking the Minister to either acknowledge that this document is a working document that the government is going to proceed with, including privatizing land, or to say that this document has not been adopted and we are not going to follow the recommendations contained in the document.

Can I get an undertaking for either one or the other as a future course of action?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Some of the recommendations will likely be followed. Ones that are administrative types of recommendations may very well be followed; others likely will not. On the privatization of land, I think I made it clear that we certainly have not made a decision. There has been one private land development carried out in the City of Whitehorse and that was not entirely to our satisfaction, merely because of prices, so we want to review the whole idea of the privatization of land development. As the Member opposite has pointed out, there are many, many recommendations in the document; some may be followed and some may not.

Ms. Moorcroft: It seems to me that the Minister is taking a completely irresponsible approach. He is refusing to acknowledge the strategic plan as a working plan of the Department of Community and Transportation Services. At the same time, he is saying that there are some administrative changes in it that will occur. There is simply no leadership being demonstrated here at all. For example, if “the sports and recreation branch is moved from Renewable Resources and joined with arts and heritage and tourism within the Department of Tourism” - if that happens, is the Minister going to just call it an administrative change, or is he going to acknowledge that these recommendations, which are contained in the strategic plan, are some form of leadership and direction that the Minister is giving from the political level for the future of the department?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The recommendation that the Member opposite referred to is a policy decision. That would have to be dealt with by Cabinet and not by the department itself. There are other recommendations in there - out of the dozens, as the Member opposite has pointed out - that may very well be implemented in the future.

Ms. Moorcroft: Is that it then? Is that all that the Minister is going to indicate? Does the Minister have any opinion as to whether the safety branch should return to operate separately from the engineering branch, and include mechanical inspections, building inspections, electrical inspections, fire protection, emergency measures and fire marshals? Is that policy, or is that administrative? Has the Minister taken interest in that before the fact, or is this something that is going to be an administrative change after the fact?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, I will be consulted on the changes that may take place within the department that may be what I would class as administrative. They can be made within the department and do not necessarily need the sanction of the Cabinet. There are some other recommendations in the document, as I have stated before, that need Cabinet approval.

Ms. Moorcroft: I am going to leave it at this, but the Minister is still not indicating what decisions and recommendations he is going to take some ownership of in the strategic document and have it become a document that is approved by the Minister and/or Cabinet.

The Minister, in this document, refers to a policy void, but I think what we are seeing is a leadership void.

Mr. Cable: I do not want to get into any detail about the strategic plan, but it does suggest that some senior public servants share the view that there may be a need to review how land is disposed of in the territory. Would it be fair to say that, in the Minister’s view, both in his experience as a public servant and as a Minister, that the two major problems with respect to lands are land cost and the variable land inventories?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The Member opposite has hit on exactly what was discussed at length this weekend at the housing conference - land affordability and its adequate supply.

Mr. Cable: The general proposition that land disposal needs some sort of review seems to pop out of the words of this draft strategic plan. I wonder if I could spend a few moments on the cost problem with the land. This is relevant to whether or not the government launches into a free market approach to land disposal.

The copy of regulations I have that are amended up to 1986 indicate that the development costs shall be recaptured unless the lands are sold for market cost. There are a number of elements of development cost. They include the acquisition costs, the planning costs, the site evaluation costs, the engineering costs, the survey costs and a whole bunch of other costs that appear to be contracted costs, such as road and utility building and so on.

Looking back through Hansard from last week, there is suggestion from the Minister that all of these costs are not captured and allocated to land. Is my recollection of what the Minister said correct?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Most of the costs of land development are captured, but there are hidden costs within government. For example, the time spent by the land development officer is charged to the subdivision development. For instance, his time spent on the development of the Logan subdivision would be charged against the development. Other people, such as the deputy minister or the assistant deputy minister, do spend time working on the subdivision development, yet their time is not charged against the particular subdivision. So some of those costs are not captured in the sale price of the land.

Mr. Cable: Is there any general overhead allocation from the government against the lots that are sold to recapture a portion of the deputy minister’s salary?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I will have to check on that because I do not believe there is a general allocation for administrative overhead. There may well be, but I am not certain.

Mr. Cable: How does the Minister’s department capture planning, site evaluation and engineering costs?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Contract engineering is charged to the development cost of a subdivision, as is the work done by municipal engineering on a land development project.

Mr. Cable: How are these costs collected? Do people have time chits, or are they reviewed after the job and then some estimate is made of their time?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The actual number of hours worked are charged against the subdivision. In some cases, there will be a transfer of dollars from one branch to another for the time spent by municipal engineering.

Mr. Cable: Would that apply to the downstream costs - if I can call them that - such as the marketing costs, which would be the government’s cost for advertising and the time that people spend on drawing up advertisements, as well as administration fees, whatever they are?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not so sure how that actually works. I do know that the actual cost for advertising - like the ads in the paper, and so on - are charged directly to the development, but I am not exactly sure if the time of the person who deals with the advertising agency, for instance, or the newspaper, or whatever, is charged against it.

Mr. Cable: Were the engineering and survey costs primarily internal government costs, or is most of that done under contract? I am particularly thinking of residential subdivisions.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: The surveying costs are contract costs that are charged against the development. The engineering is mostly done by engineering firms outside of government, but there is some done by municipal engineering. It depends on the size and nature of the subdivision.

Mr. Cable: I put this question to the Minister last week in Question Period. With respect to the typical residential subdivision, if there is one, what would be the approximate ratio of the internal government costs that would be collected by time chits, advertising and invoices, et cetera, versus the contracted costs for engineers and road builders?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I could bring an example back for the Member opposite, for instance, on the Arkel subdivision, but it would be really hard to make a generalization. It could very easily be less than five percent, but I do not think I would want to state that it is less than five percent. I would want to bring back an example of one particular subdivision to show the Member.

Mr. Cable: There were some questions put to the Minister earlier today about the free market versus the government management of subdivisions. At the present, it appears that there is no totally comprehensive cost collection system in place for government development. Is it fair to say that?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: Yes, that is a fair statement. I think that I have stated previously that all of the costs in the development of the subdivision are not necessarily recovered in the development of the subdivision.

Mr. Cable: So, right at the moment we are not in the position to accurately determine who can deliver the cheapest subdivisions: the private entrepreneurs or the government.

Is the Minister prepared to give some further thought - this is another question that I put to the Minister last week - about asking the Auditor General to conduct an operational audit on the land disposal? It appears that there are many, many millions of dollars at stake every year, and without an accurate cost collection, it is difficult to judge whether the present land disposal system is working effectively.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I do not really have a problem with doing an assessment. I am not sure if the Auditor General’s department is the proper department to carry out this assessment, or whether it should be carried out by our own internal audit branch.

I think that if we get fairly serious about private land development, we do need some sort of an analysis of the actual true costs that government is footing.

Mr. Cable: The other side of the coin would be a true cost analysis of the only private subdivision so far, the Pineridge subdivision.

I gather that subdivision was developed on land that had been turned over to the City of Whitehorse and then in turn sold to the developer. I believed that the City of Whitehorse attached a sale price to it of somewhere in excess of $200,000. Approximately, how much did that add to the price of each lot? I have forgotten how many lots there were.

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I also cannot recall the exact number of lots but I think I heard a figure bandied around of approximately $8,000 per lot.

Mr. Cable: If, in fact, the Minister arranges for the turnover of any other lands to municipalities, would there be any restrictions placed on the municipalities tacking on additional charges?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I believe that what we would do is get a caveat, or whatever, that there be some sort of agreement. The municipality would be permitted to charge their administration cost but not an upfront profit.

Mr. Cable: I believe the Minister has been asked this in a general sense before, but is he of the view that allocating single subdivision properties directly to a developer, or to a municipality for allocation to a developer, is a true test of how the market would operate? Would there have to be various subdivisions being developed at the same time to make the market operate properly?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: What the Member has suggested is probably quite accurate. I do not believe that we can use the Pineridge development as a norm. It had been intended to have other lots available at the same time, like the ones we eventually released at Canyon Crescent and Mary Lake, and we also had intended to have Steven subdivision on line, which, because of land claims, did not materialize. So there was no opportunity to compare government development with private development and, unfortunately, I do not think Pineridge is a good indication of what the actual costs will be.

Mr. Cable: On the issue of interest costs that are attached to properties held in inventory for some extensive period of time, I gather one of the subdivisions in Porter Creek had been developed and then put on hold for some time. How much did the holding of an inventory for an extended period of time add to the price of the lot?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not sure about that particular subdivision. The government at one time did attach an interest rate for lands held in inventory, and lots would escalate in price as time went by, but what was happening, especially in the smaller municipalities and communities, was that the prices soon got beyond what the market value of the lots in that general area were. So, that practice was discontinued - I am not sure how many years ago, but some years ago. Now, when there are lots that have been held and sold at some later date, there is a market-value analysis done on them and the prices are increased to what would be a fair market value.

Mr. Cable: The market value, of course, is the other way of pricing a property for disposal. Are those appraisals that are referred to in the regulations done internally or are they done by contracted appraisers?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I understand that most of our appraisals are done by the assessment and taxation branch.

Mr. Cable: Are private appraisers on any occasion called in to review the internal appraisals that are done?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I am not absolutely certain. I believe they are, but I am not certain. I can get back to the Member with that information.

Mr. Cable: I have a couple more questions for the Minister. I referred to this the other day. The regulations refer to some sort of a register kept by the Commissioner. This register is a list of all the lands that have been surveyed and appraised and are available for sale, and a record of all assignments and encumbrances. Is that register really kept?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: I indicated the other day that I would have to get all the details of the land registry and bring them back. I am not fully familiar with how it works. I know there is a registry, but I am not sure how much information can be taken out of it and whether or not it is public. I will provide that information.

Residential in the amount of an underexpenditure of $11,325,000 agreed to

On Country Residential

Ms. Moorcroft: Could I get a specific reduction on the country-residential reduction?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: There was an increase of $170,000 as the Mary Lake country-residential project for $100,000, and the Canyon Crescent project for $70,000, can now proceed per City of Whitehorse request and clarification of land claims interest. There were reductions - $520,000 for the Alaska Highway West or Stevens country-residential subdivision project, which was delayed pending discussions with Kwanlin Dun; $90,000 reduction for the Teslin country-residential, as it was deferred by the community pending municipal boundary expansion possibilities; $90,000 reduction for the Watson Lake country-residential subdivision project delayed pending federal land transfer.

Country Residential in the amount of an underexpenditure o