Whitehorse, Yukon

Wednesday, May 7, 1997 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will now call the House to order. We will proceed at this time with prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed with the Order Paper.

Are there any tributes?

Introduction of visitors.

Are there any returns or documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I have for tabling the 1997-98 business plan for the fleet vehicle agency.

Speaker: Are there any reports of committees?

Are there any petitions?

Are there any bills to be introduced?

Are there any notices of motion?

Are there any statements by ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Youth leadership project

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I rise today to inform members of a new initiative, entitled "youth leadership project".

The impetus for the youth leadership project arose from recognition that in the Yukon there are many young children and youth expressing their "boredom" and frustrations with life in ways that frequently place them in conflict with the criminal justice system. As well, many families face chronic unemployment, poverty, and alcohol and substance abuse, which make it difficult for them to provide positive role models for their children. In many Yukon communities there is a lack of recreational opportunities.

Research shows that two major factors can help children facing these circumstances. These factors are that the child develop at least one good relationship with someone inside or outside the home who provides a positive role model, and that the child have at least one area in which they do well, such as in arts or sports. Experience suggests that recreational and leadership activities build confidence and self-esteem in youth and deter negative social behaviour such as vandalism and petty crime.

The youth leadership project is a community-based summer leadership and recreational demonstration project intended to help children and youth at risk to develop positive attitudes and behaviours. This project will focus on providing learning and leadership through fun and fitness.

The project will make additional resources available to communities with limited recreational opportunities and high a incidence of youth crime. It will be tailor made for Yukon communities.

The project is a joint initiative between the Departments of Justice, Community and Transportation Services, Health and Social Services and Education, as well as the RCMP and Crime Prevention Yukon.

Crime Prevention Yukon will be the sponsoring agency for this project and will administer the demonstration project with support from an inter-agency steering committee.

Crime Prevention Yukon has received $20,000 from the youth investment fund to establish the youth leadership project in two rural communities.

The RCMP and the Departments of Justice and Community and Transportation Services are allocating a total of $12,000 in start-up funding from existing budgets. Health and Social Services is donating office space for the project coordinator.

As the sponsoring agency, Crime Prevention Yukon will be contacting other potential funding sources and corporate sponsors and community service clubs for additional contributions to meet the estimated $50,000 budget for the project.

The communities participating in the project this year are Watson Lake, Upper Liard and Ross River. The selection of the communities to participate in the demonstration project is based on there being a perceived need for such a program and strong interest and participation from the community.

Volunteer support will be essential to ensure the success of the project. Local youth will be invited to participate in delivering the project in their community. These youth will receive recreation and leadership training and be paid an honorarium. A five-person team will be in each community for one month this summer, and an evaluation will be conducted.

The benefits to a community are that its young people experience positive lifestyle choices and alternatives to self-destructive behaviour. New leadership opportunities are provided for adults and youth, and this expertise stays in the community. Similar projects in other jurisdictions have proven effective in encouraging wide-spread community participation and support for such initiatives.

This project is an example of our government's commitment to effective crime prevention actions. Early intervention and community-based support help children and youth at risk to develop positive attitudes and behaviour. It also meets a commitment made in the issue paper on property-related crime, Creating Safer Communities, to study the feasibility of establishing a wilderness leadership camp pilot project.

I am looking forward to the support of all members of this House.

Mr. Phillips: Before I respond directly to the ministerial statement, I would like to make a couple of comments about something that seems to be occurring more regularly and is of some concern to us on this side.

Last week, there was a ministerial statement given by the minister of the Energy Corporation relating to the operating agreement with the YECL. There is an agreement among all House Leaders that ministerial statements are given to House leaders and embargoed until such a time as they are delivered in the House. Last week, with the energy statement, there was a story that appeared in the Whitehorse Star within an hour or so of the minister giving his statement laying out the details of the agreement. I think that, obviously, the Whitehorse Star had details of an agreement before the minister released it in the House.

Again, today, on the 12:30 p.m. news, there was a report of this particular program being announced. I guess my concern is that it is a courtesy agreement among the House Leaders to respect the fact that we embargo any ministerial statement until it's delivered. We honour that on this side and we hope that the government would do so in the future.

Having said that, ministerial statements are also supposed to be announcing new programs and if the government chooses to announce the initiative prior to announcing it in the House, it is no longer a new program; they are announcing it a second time. I suggest that they should reverse the procedure, as has always been the practice in the past.

With respect to this particular program, we on this side support projects such as this and we're pleased the government is following the good work and information that was gathered by the Creating Safer Communities and Talking About Crime papers.

I'd like to ask the minister a few questions, though, and maybe get a few more details. This year they chose Watson Lake and Ross River as participants. Maybe the minister can elaborate a little bit on the special criteria they used in choosing those two communities. Was there more demonstrated need in those communities?

As well, it's not clear who they talked to in the selection process. They say they talked to individuals, but I'd like the minister to spell that out.

Youth is going to be selected to participate in delivering the project, which I think is a good idea and is a recommendation that the youth themselves had spoken to us about at the YES conference during the election.

I'd like to know from the minister if the youth were involved in developing this concept.

The statement says that the youth are going to be paid an honorarium, and I'm wondering if the minister could let us know how much that honorarium is going to be, and how much time will the youth have to volunteer? Those would be useful issues to know about as well.

Negative peer pressure often results in kids getting into trouble, and I hope that this particular program will develop positive attitudes and behaviour in our youth, and I wish them well in this project. I think it's a positive project and I commend the government for taking this step.

Ms. Duncan: The Liberal caucus has very serious concerns respecting the ministerial statement, not with respect to what the statement says - and I would like to deal with that later - but the way in which this statement has been handled. In effect, the ministerial statement is an elaboration of yesterday's news release and, as pointed out by the Member for Riverdale North, last week a similar situation occurred. Informing the media before informing members is, we believe, inappropriate, and it shows a complete disrespect for this House and its members. We believe that House Leaders should resolve this understanding and resolve it quickly.

That being said, the ministerial statement outlines an initiative that we believe is a good one. I have questions for the minister with respect to the ministerial statement, which she could indicate when she rises in response: the measurements in general terms of success of this project, and community expectations will be raised for an established program, and I would like her to outline the longevity of the program once she responds.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, first of all, I'll respond to the comments that members made regarding a point of order. The government does embargo ministerial statements. The press release associated with this ministerial statement on the youth leadership project was prepared this morning and should have been released this afternoon. It was inadvertently released this morning. That was a mistake. It was not deliberate, and I certainly apologize for that.

The members opposite asked for details on how the communities were selected. It was based on demonstrated need and on participation from communities. I can provide further details regarding the evaluation and the level of honorarium for the members. I appreciate the fact that they are supporting this very helpful initiative. I think it will be good for youth in our communities and it's really good to see the kinds of partnerships that are occurring here with Crime Prevention Yukon working with the RCMP and government departments. Thank you.

Speaker: This then brings us to Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Air access to the Yukon

Mr. Phillips: I have some questions for the Minister of Tourism regarding air access to the Yukon. Last year, we had Canadian Airlines and Northwest Territories Air with regular flights every day in and out of Whitehorse. Royal Airlines provided two flights a week - Friday and Tuesday, I believe. Since then, we have lost Northwest Territorial Airways and Canada 3000 has announced that it will provide service to Yukon this summer.

Can the minister advise this House whether or not these changes are going to have any major effect on air arrivals into the Yukon this year?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly it will have an effect. The pull-out by the Northwest Territorial Airways was certainly a blow to all of us here. Certainly, it will have an effect, and certainly we hope it will not be too adverse of an effect.

Mr. Phillips: I wonder if the Minister of Tourism could advise the House, since he's up-to-date on the issues of tourism and air access as a major issue, can he tell the House today, so Yukoners know, the frequency of flights this year? What airlines are flying to the territory and when are they flying to the territory, and when will they begin and end their service?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: I'd be more than happy to provide that information to the member opposite. Off the top of the head, I do not have that information, but certainly we know that ERA Aviation - the Canada 3000 - is flying, and others, so I will get the information back to the member opposite.

Mr. Phillips: I'm surprised that the minister doesn't have that information - at least in his briefing books at his desk there - because the minister, next week, is going to attend one of the major travel trade shows in Vancouver - Rendezvous Canada - and air access to the Yukon is a very big issue in the travel industry.

The minister will be asked a lot of questions about this, and I'd like to ask the minister why he is not aware now - since he's going in about three days - of what the schedules are and what airlines are going to be flying to the territory next year?

Why is the minister not aware of that information? Is it not important to him?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, certainly nothing surprises me any more on this side of the House for the questions asked. Certainly, if we would take time to speak to the real issues, especially during budget debate and focus on the real issues and certainly, time will be of the essence for this side of the House and we'll be able to do our job properly.

Mr. Speaker, I must say that I quite categorically will state here that I certainly hate the insinuation that I'm not doing my job or anything like as such. I certainly believe strongly in my job, as I've said before and as we'll hear certainly starting tomorrow, with the initiatives of the tourism industry, I think that I am doing a good job.

Mr. Speaker, the Tourism Industry Association certainly feels that they're in the loop, maybe for the first time, but certainly in the loop for tourism initiatives and making tourism initiatives and being there so that we might be able to make decisions together.

So certainly, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite, who was the previous Minister of Tourism, should certainly know those things. As for his style of raising issues in the House, well I'm certain that all Yukoners are very aware of it and certainly the ones who have spoken to me in the street are very aware of it and are appalled.

Question re: Air access to the Yukon

Mr. Phillips: Well, I'm sure the tourism industry is appalled that the minister doesn't even know when the airlines are going to start flying into the territory next year. I can tell the minister when I was the minister last year and going to Rendezvous Canada, I was aware who was coming and going to the territory because I knew that would be a question that would be asked.

Mr. Speaker, in the last four years, we've seen our overseas market, specifically in Germany, increase by almost 100 percent and it's by far our fastest growing market. Recent changes in the airline access and schedules have caused significant disruption in this marketplace. Much of the marketing this past winter was done with Air Canada and Northwest Territorial Airways and this direct access route has now been severed.

Can the minister tell the House if, with this restricted access, we will see a decrease this year in our European visitors, especially our German visitors? I know there were some 6,000 expected seats booked. Are we expecting to see a decrease in that number this year?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, as I said in the first question to the member opposite, we are going to be working with due diligence so that we might be able to work and to clarify.

As for numbers, no, I cannot give specific answers to numbers, but I can certainly give the direction that the Tourism department is moving in, and that is one of negotiation with various airlines. Certainly, the department has been pro-active in this and is working with due diligence so that we might not have to run through this scenario any more and make it any more adverse than it already is.

Mr. Phillips: The lack of direct access and increased costs will make us less attractive and less competitive to our overseas visitors, who are extremely important to our industry, and it's almost too late to do much this year, Mr. Speaker. I know the minister has made some efforts, and I applaud the efforts he made in Germany for doing that, but the minister is going to probably be making a statement to Rendezvous Canada when he's there next week.

I wonder if the minister will be addressing the area of air access, and can he tell Yukoners today what he'll be telling the visitor industry next week when he's in Vancouver?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, we're certainly not going to inform the member opposite of what I'm going to be saying. I will let the member opposite know, however, that I will be working with the industry at every level - the Canadian Tourism Commission, et cetera - so that we might be able to bring forth better access to the territory.

Mr. Phillips: I wonder if the minister could tell us what is so secret about the message he's going to give the travel industry tomorrow that he can't tell Yukoners today, Mr. Speaker. I'm not going to be making the speech to the travel industry. Surely to goodness, the minister can inform Yukoners what position he is going to take and what he's going to say to the travel trade industry when he stands up and has their ear next week.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I think that this government is making moves. We're spending an extra $250,000 on airline marketing this year. That is no secret. Certainly, what I'm going to be saying to the folks next week at Rendezvous Canada will be no secret either. We want to work cooperatively with all segments of the industry within Canada, within Yukon, and that is certainly what we are doing.

I must say, though, that I'm again somewhat appalled with the member opposite. He's asking what my position is, and do I have figures off the top of my head, and can I quote these figures and all these types of things, and can I actually tell when one of the pilots is going to be sick, and we might have to get another pilot. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I don't think that should be within my knowledge level, and it is certainly not within my knowledge level at this time, but I think this government is doing great moves toward enhancing tourism, and when we get into the Tourism debate, we'll certainly be able to explain to the member opposite exactly what we are doing.

I said that we're spending an extra $250,000. I know it is not the process of this House for me to ask questions of the opposite side, but certainly the member opposite, who was the Tourism Minister, had three months to initiate the promise that he had made with Northwest Territorial Airways and he did not follow through on that.

I have made attempts and I am certainly, at this point in time, making attempts to bring airlines into here, bring service and continuity to the airline industry and, more importantly, to the tourism industry. Certainly, that is the position that this government will stand on and go forth with.

Question re: Old Crow school, consultation

Ms. Duncan: I have some questions for the Minister of Education.

On Monday night, in the Legislature, the minister indicated that there was no formal, written agreement to build a new school in Old Crow. In a spring letter to constituents, the MLA for Vuntut Gwitchin said, "Education officials and our band have signed an agreement for the construction of the new school." Yesterday, the minister indicated that she didn't know what agreement was being referred to and that she would get back to me. Does the minister have an answer on that today?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, I do, and what I would like to do is provide for the member - and have the page deliver to her - a copy of the attached master agreement which sets out the guidelines related to the construction of the temporary school facilities. This agreement includes the burn-site clean-up and testing, the location of new teacher housing, employment and training opportunities in the future site of the new school.

I apologize, Mr. Speaker. I did not rise to table this document at the tabling of returns and documents, but I will do so on a point of order at the end of Question Period.

Ms. Duncan: Would the minister, given that we were unaware of this information during the budget debate, also determine with her officials whether or not there have been any formal proposals received for the construction of a new school and if one of those options for a design/build plan is from a Yellowknife architectural firm?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I will certainly provide that information for the member. The legislative return that the member has does set out some information regarding the building advisory committee and the ongoing work that is being done with the Department of Education working with the Department of Government Services and the Old Crow community on the new school project.

Ms. Duncan: Given that there has been a discrepancy between Hansard and the Vuntut Gwitchin MLA's newsletter, can the minister indicate what steps will be taken to ensure that information provided to the residents of the Old Crow is correct?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't believe that there is a discrepancy. I think that the information that I have provided to the member should answer her questions.

The government has not yet called for proposals, so I can tell the member that she has the information regarding the current work being done in Old Crow to build a new school there. As I said in the House during Education debate, the planning is just going ahead now. We have money in the budget this year for design and planning, and that is the work that will be done during the present budget year.

Question re: Copper Ridge subdivision

Ms. Duncan: My question is for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services.

The House recently passed through the Community and Transportation Services budget that identified over $600,000 worth of work to be done in the Copper Ridge subdivision in Whitehorse.

Does the Minister of Community and Transportation Services believe that it is important that, if possible, this work be done by a Yukon company? In effect, does the minister believe in the work of his colleague, the local hire commissioner?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, we believe in the work of my colleague, the local hire commissioner. This government has taken the time to make a commission out of it.

Ms. Duncan: One of the tenders for the Copper Ridge subdivision, for the provision of engineering services, was recently advertised locally, and in addition to that, four companies were given specific invitations to submit proposals on this work.

Would the minister explain why the Department of Community and Transportation Services specifically invited an Edmonton firm to submit a proposal for this work?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: At this point in time, no, I cannot. I will certainly have to do some work and ask the department about that.

Ms. Duncan: Would the minister commit to ensuring that if the government determines that it is necessary to invite out-of-Yukon firms to submit proposals that they include in the tender provisions the requirement for a local office to be established?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, that is the type of work that I think my colleague, the commissioner of local hire, will be making recommendations on, and we will certainly be able to, at that point in time, put those recommendations into policy and into effect.

Question re: Yukon Energy Corporation, rate increase

Mr. Ostashek: My question is for the minister responsible for the Energy Corporation.

As the minister knows, Yukoners, especially those on fixed incomes, are very concerned and alarmed about the increases in their power bills, and we know the Utilities Board will be having a hearing on YEC's application for a 20-percent increase on Monday, May the 12th. I'm not certain whether the Utilities Board intends to rule immediately, or whether they'll defer their decision for some time.

I would like to ask the minister if he could advise this House about what contingency plan is in place to shield the Yukon ratepayers from any increases that may be approved by the Utilities Board?

Hon. Mr. Harding: The issue of how long the Utilities Board will deliberate is not entirely in my hands, but I want to say to the member opposite and to all Yukoners, as I've said many, many times, that this government is already planning and has been planning options for putting out to the public with regard to any potential rate increase that might be agreed to by the Utilities Board, once the Utilities Board holds their meetings and goes through the due process of the hearings.

At that point, during the hearings, the interveners will have the chance to raise their concerns before the board. Cabinet is already preparing options, as I said, and will be able to respond once we get a ruling from the Yukon Utilities Board. The other interesting thing that I would say to the member that it is also a good sign that the weather is warming up and power consumption is dropping dramatically in this territory.

Mr. Ostashek: Well, Mr. Speaker, it might be fine for the minister to say that he's doing some planning, but I know that there are many Yukoners who are very skeptical about what this government will do after the commitments that were made by them in the election campaign to stabilize power rates and make them affordable - and then allow them to go up 10 percent and are now faced with another 20-percent increase.

So, if the Utilities Board doesn't rule, Mr. Speaker, for quite some time, Yukoners are going to be anxiously awaiting what power rates are going to be - what they're going to be facing. So, I would like to ask the minister if he would advise this House that in the event that the decision by the Utilities Board is delayed for several weeks, would he be prepared to announce what contingency plan he has in place to soften the impact of these rates to consumers?

Hon. Mr. Harding: The question is completely hypothetical at this point. We don't know what the Utilities Board is going to rule. With regard to the preamble about the commitments in the election campaign, one of the things we did right away, upon coming into office, was to revitalize the rate relief program which was going to be killed by the Yukon Party. We knew there was a lot of support for rate relief, based on our petition that we did last year, and it was very clear that people wanted rate relief to continue and were not in favour of the Yukon Party's planned elimination of it. We reinstituted rate relief.

With regard to the 10-percent rate increases that he bootlegged in and that we allowed to go ahead, I would remind the member that the 5.5-percent rate rider started under his administration, Mr. Speaker, and with the uncertainty surrounding Anvil, we were unable to direct the Yukon Energy Corporation to write off their part of it, and the other rate rider was with regard to an increase in world diesel prices.

So, I would say to the member that we are very much concerned about increasing costs in power and we are going to be addressing the situation with some options to mitigate the impact of any potential increase the Utilities Board might rule on, once they come up with a ruling.

Mr. Ostashek: The minister of energy knows full well that what he is saying is not true about the Yukon Party killing the rate relief program. We announced long before they put their petition out that the program was going to be continued. He has said it so often now, Mr. Speaker, he is starting to believe it himself.

The reality of it is that the public does not have much faith in this administration when it comes to power rates in the Yukon. They've seen them fumble the ball very badly in this respect.

The minister has also talked pretty tough about the Anvil Range Corporation of late, and I understand that the company still owes about $3 million outstanding in power bills, which the Yukon ratepayers, I presume, will have to pay for through another power increase if Anvil does not pay its bill. If this should happen - and the minister will say it's hypothetical, because they are trying to collect it, but it has been outstanding for over 90 days now - and it isn't paid, will the government protect Yukoners from that increase, as well?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Everybody in the public knows that the Yukon Party was going to kill rate relief. That was the whole reason we did a petition: to ensure that there was a public movement against that move by the Yukon Party.

The members opposite, when the mine shut down in 1993, were the government in power when there was a 58-percent increase in rate applications going before the Yukon Utilities Board. Twenty percent is high, but it's not 58 percent.

The reason that there is any move whatsoever is that we've been faced with the loss of the major customer on the system, and the rates that are in existence today were based on the assumption that that particular customer, which uses more than 40 percent of the power for the Yukon, would be on the system and providing those revenues. However, it is not.

With regard to the bills, Anvil Range only became, with regard to a full month's billing, delinquent on their bill as of the end of April.

With regard to a payment they made just recently of $1.3 million, that puts them just under $3 million in arrears. The Yukon Energy Corporation has taken every action that they can to try and collect and the company has indicated, at least to them, that they intend to pay, although not in as formal a manner as we would like to see.

Question re: Abattoir

Mr. Cable: I have some questions on the abattoir for the Minister of Renewable Resources.

There was a report done in 1991 on meat consumption in the Yukon, and it indicated that there were 4.5 million pounds of red meat used annually in the Yukon and 1.4 million pounds of poultry, which is worth approximately $10 million at the retail level.

There are a few jobs in the abattoir facility, and there are many more downstream in the production end.

Now, the minister's department talked about putting the abattoir out for a proposal call a few months ago. Has the minister actually done so, and if not, when does he anticipate doing so?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Yes, we have, and we will be continuing to be working on it. It is in the process. It has gone through Management Board. The department has been given directions to continue to look into the proposals a bit more closely and work with those that submitted their proposals to us. So, I guess it will take a bit of time before they do get back to us, and what we did instruct the department to do was to do this review and come back to Cabinet with something.

Mr. Cable: I had asked the minister once before about time lines. I don't want to waste another question. Could the minister give me the answer to my first question by way of legislative return?

Now, there are a number of jobs involved, and there is substantial import substitution available by way of use of an abattoir for locally grown meats. Has the minister decided whether the setting up of an abattoir would fit into the proposed diversification strategy of this government?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, the direction that is coming to us is from the industry out there. I mean it's from the people that are directly involved with farms and so on, and this has been in the works for quite a long time, and we would like to support the industry, and this is just a small way of doing it. Certainly, part of our direction as government, I guess, is to support these small industries that have potential to grow.

Mr. Cable: Now, in the original solicitation of interest that was put out to the public, the government agreed to make a contribution to eligible costs - capital assistance. It also agreed to provide inspection services and provide some expertise in the area. Is the minister satisfied that the amount that has been budgeted will adequately cover those items that the government is proposing to provide to the project?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: We believe that the amount of dollars that we say that will go into this - $150,000 - is adequate for the equipment part of this. The people that are submitting proposals would have to put a lot into it themselves - a building, and so on. There will be a little bit of cost, I guess, in the future, in regard to inspection, and those will be shown, I guess, in the budget, once we go through that.

Question re: Dump maintenance

Mr. Jenkins: My question today is for the minister responsible for Community and Transportation Services. In the budget debate on Community and Transportation Services, I raised the issue of the government adopting a consistent policy for standards for dump maintenance. The government has 20 dumps that it's responsible for, in and around the Yukon Territory. At that time, the minister waffled in his response.

I'd like to raise the question of the maintenance of a specific dump with the minister. I've heard reports that the dump in Old Crow is currently under water as a result of runoff, and is overflowing, making its way into the lagoon and then down into the river. Is the minister aware of this situation?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I most certainly am.

Mr. Jenkins: This leads to the question as to what is the minister prepared to do? There's garbage flowing all over the place. There's an unhealthy mess. I'd ask the minister to see what action he can take to correct this situation. It's going right into the river, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not. Mr. Speaker, it was brought to my attention this morning by the MLA for the area that this could be a problem, and I certainly did get my department to look into it. At this point in time, my department is taking corrective measures and actions to correct that.

Mr. Jenkins: What are the corrective measures that his department is taking, Mr. Speaker? What is the minister's department going to do to ensure that the runoff doesn't go through the garbage dump down into the lagoon, and then down into the river? What actions are being taken? Could the minister please be specific?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, Mr. Speaker, most certainly I can elaborate. I can say that the call went out this morning, and that I have faith in the department and in the Old Crow people that they will be doing the right thing and working toward those ends. Specifically, have they started up and fired up the cat and done something? I cannot say at this point, not specifically, what they have done, but certainly I know that they've been directed to take specific measures to ensure that we do not have a major problem on our hands, other than the problem that is already there with the flooding. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I thank the member opposite for the question.

Question re: Driving safety

Mrs. Edelman: My question is also for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services.

During the budget debate, the minister discussed consultation with the public about drunk driving, as part of the motor vehicle 1996 review questionnaire. Mr. Speaker, the results from the survey done in 1996 still have not been released, but in the meantime, the issue of impaired driving is not going away.

Between the years 1983 and 1991, 17,630 people died in Canada in alcohol-related crashes.

What is the department doing about impaired driving while we wait for the results from the motor vehicle review?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to answer that question.

The department, at this point in time, has been doing its research and consultation in putting it together. The paper has now gone into the Cabinet system and the Cabinet is now looking at which way to work this through the system and how we're going to act on it.

Mrs. Edelman: In British Columbia alone, more than 45 percent of all fatal alcohol-related collisions also involve drivers travelling at unsafe speeds - speed kills.

What is the motor vehicle branch planning to do to address the greater safety issue of speeding drivers?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, the paper that has gone out is not specific just to drunk driving, but - I guess the word might be generic - in its approach. It's also looking at impaired drivers; it's looking at some people being driven in the back of pickups. It's talking about such things as insurance and lack of insurance, impounding of vehicles, and certainly, I'll be more than pleased to share that with the member opposite when it is ready, and I do anticipate that it should be coming shortly.

Mrs. Edelman: Drivers' perceptions of the risks inherent to driving are unrealistically low and this perception is re-enforced by the relative rarity of collisions.

Most drivers' assessments of their ability to drive safely is unrealistically high, and the relative rarity of collisions in the general forgiving design of modern roadway environments tends to reinforce risky behaviours - in other words, people think they are great drivers and they're not. It's easy roads to drive on. They don't have many accidents, so they have this very unrealistic vision of how great they are.

Now, public education is the key to keeping Yukon drivers good drivers. What is the minister doing to promote public education on safe driving throughout the Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, as an ongoing initiative, public education is very much a part of what we're doing. Throughout this paper, we're certainly desirous of and will be talking again with the greater public. I think that the paper that was initiated a number of years ago is certainly a part of the factor of the education system and this type of educational system will be currently ongoing in respect to making our highways safe for all peoples.

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, though not only simply for drivers having an unrealistic view of how greatly our - certainly I think in this House, and typically in this House, that is certainly a factor in many other issues. If I could also add that ad campaigns and stop-check programs on condition of working with the RCMP are certainly always ongoing and will be. Thank you.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will proceed to Orders of the Day.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Point of order

Speaker: Point of order.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to request unanimous consent to revert to tabling returns and documents.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Unanimous consent granted

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I have a document for tabling.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OPPOSITION PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS

MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS

Clerk: Motion No. 49, standing in the name of Mr. Cable.

Motion No. 49

Speaker: It is moved by the Member for Riverside

THAT this House urge the Government of Yukon to deal immediately with the staff and inmate health and safety concerns relating to the Whitehorse Correctional Centre, raised in the Barr Ryder condition survey report of January 31, 1995.

If the member now speaks ...

Mr. Cable: There are those who would wish that that were so.

If, Mr. Speaker, you'll indulge me ...

The issue that I would like to speak to today is one that is of major concern to many people that have walked into my office, and the concern for people that have called our offices relating to the Whitehorse Correctional Institute and the present condition of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre and the ability of that institute to do the things it was set out originally to do - that is, to incarcerate prisoners and rehabilitate them and bring them back into society.

The history of this facility is that it was designed and constructed in the 1960s, when standards for correctional facilities were substantially different from what they are today.

Now, we've had many complaints about the facility, and they started very early on, relating to both the design problems and to structural problems. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of the problems from conversations that we have had and from newspaper clips and from exchanges in this Legislature. There is a whole litany of complaints, and I'd like to go over a few of them that have been related to me.

I've been told that some of the manual locks in the dormitory areas are difficult to open because a wall is shifting. I have been told that one exit was frozen up and couldn't be opened in the middle of winter. I have been told that there is a floor beam cracked in three places, and that doorjambs are unsafe. I have been told that the Minister of Justice has viewed a video showing that frost has moved 16 feet into the building, and on and on and on. And recently, we've had the request given the occupational health and safety branch to do a health and safety audit, and I gather that request was triggered by the staff at the Correctional Centre.

Fairly recently, there was an article in the April 18th, 1997, Yukon News. It was entitled, Mr. Speaker, "Whitehorse Prison 'Like a Death Sentence,'" and the writer of the article starts off by saying, "Being sentenced to time in the Whitehorse prison is like being delivered a death sentence," according to an inmate who says he has fallen ill at the correctional facility.

The prisoner, who doesn't want his name published, said his teeth and hair are falling out and his body is covered with open sores. He says, " 'Something's wrong and I can't figure out what it is,' he said in a telephone interview from the dilapidated prison last week."

One could make fun of prisoners; I don't think that's a very wise idea. They are there serving sentences and being rehabilitated, so let's not address the incarceration of certain members of our society in a light fashion.

One of the paragraphs in this article says, "One of those dormitories looked like the psych ward from 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'". This is the reporter who took a tour of the jail. "Standing at the door to the cafeteria-sized sleeping quarters, you couldn't count the number of beds stacked in the room. Another dormitory has eight inmates crammed in a room that is only about eight paces wide by 15 paces long." That is from personal observations by the reporter.

A few years ago, in January of 1988, there was a report prepared by a Doug Borrowman and Don Head. It was entitled, "A Review of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre."

I would just like to draw your attention to page 4 of the report and a comment under the head, "Physical Layout." "This topic is self-explanatory. The building was constructed for a planned capacity of 38 inmates. The centre is now a multi-level facility housing from 35 to 100-plus inmates, and the design does not lend itself to adequate programming for the various groups of offenders."

A little later, on page 17, under suggestion 17, "The physical layout of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre is not conducive to efficient, well-run programs for inmate populations in recent years and, as such, has not had further major capital funds expended on it." A little later, "As part of a long-range plan, the construction of a new facility should be seriously considered." That is back in January of 1988.

The previous NDP administration had commissioned a report done by a group called Advanced Planning and Research for Architecture. That report, entitled "A Strong Corrections Plan", bearing a date of February 22, 1990, has a number of cogent observations in it.

I would refer you firstly, Mr. Speaker, to the executive summary, which outlines the various problems, and the body of the report, which deals with the problems in greater detail.

At page 8 of that report - that's Advanced Planning and Research for Architecture's report - there's a list of what's called major functional issues at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre. There are four major issues. The first is that there's no clear delineation between the higher and lower levels of security within the secure perimeter of the centre. The second one, Mr. Speaker, is that units that should be isolated, such as the segregation cells, are located off the main circulation corridor. Then the third one: there are conflicts in the circulation system among the offenders, visitors, staff and materials. I'm not going to read all the comments, but I would refer you also to page 9 of that report, which says, "The 1981 WCC facilities program by Focus Planning Ltd., recommended a total redevelopment of the existing facility."

I'd refer you also to page 14: "Based on the physical and functional evaluation of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre, it is apparent that its use as part of a new correctional system would be limited. It should be retained with minimal maintenance until a replacement can be developed." That, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, is back in February of 1990, which is over seven years ago.

At page 24, the writers of the report say that, "The physical and functional obsolescence of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre will continue to seriously constrain the department in its attempt to operate a modern, safe and secure correctional system. The security of both the staff and inmates will continue to be a concern if the major issues identified in this study are not addressed."

There we are, February of 1990. We've identified various problems relating to the physical structure, and we've identified problems that relate to the treatment of prisoners and their rehabilitation back into society - the inadequacy of this facility to do the latter.

Then, five years later there's another consulting firm retained to do a condition survey at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre:that's Barr Ryder Architects and Planners. Eventually, they came forward with a report dated January 31st, 1995.

This report gives much greater detail than the previous reports and is much more definitive, in my view, and it has a very interesting executive summary.

The comments that I would draw your attention to are the comments under the "summary of findings" as they relate to life and safety required upgrades, and those are found at page 2 of the report.

One finding that's underlined says, "Should a major fire occur in the facility, loss of life to inmates and/or staff, is highly probable." Then it goes on to deal with the cost of life and safety required upgrades and that's a little over $2 million.

The report goes on to talk about the structural deficiencies, the shifting of walls and the mechanical system and the building envelope and the electrical system. It says that the correction of those deficiencies and the upgrades that were necessary will cost a little over $3 million.

Then the report goes on to talk about security. It identifies a number of security concerns. In my copy, some of them have been removed and I'll address that a little later on. The total cost to rectify the security problem concerns is identified at $4.3 million, and the total cost of all the upgrades exceeds the value of the facility itself.

Then, in the recommendations - and the most cogent one is the first one - I won't read it all; I'll read you the first sentence: "It is the recommendation of the consulting team that the facility not be considered for substantive renovations, in order to assist in accommodating programs."

The second recommendation relates to, "Consideration should not be given to relocation of inmates to a separate building and utilizing the existing facility for staff, and administration and program considerations. Unless the facility can be brought up to full life, safety and technical standards, there remains a danger that earthquake or fire will cause loss of life or injury to staff, if not inmates, in program areas."

I'd like to emphasize the last recommendation, Mr. Speaker: "Options in future, therefore, should not consider the continuation of this facility but must look toward its replacement as soon as practicable."

Now the report, as it was given to me, was based on an arrangement I had made with the Minister of Justice whereby the security concerns would be blacked out so they would presumably not be telegraphed to future inmates or to existing inmates. If one goes through the copy provided to me, it'll reveal, Mr. Speaker, there're many, many areas that have been blacked out, so one can only make the assumption that there are major security concerns. Those would be concerns not necessarily solely restricted to the staff, but also restricted to some or all of the prisoners.

Now, what has been said on this topic in the past in this House? I'd refer the minister to Hansard of May 16th, 1991, and some comments made by the then Justice minister, Ms. Commodore, in response to questions.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Cable: The Whitehorse Correctional Centre - there's a question in Question Period asked of Ms. Commodore by the then Member for Riverdale South, Mrs. Firth. I won't get into all of the question, but I will relate part of it, and the minister, in her spare time, can take Hansard to bed with her and read it. This is Ms. Commodore speaking: "As I have already told the House in debate on the budget, I have given the member an update in regard to the jail and the problems that we have there. It is a well-known fact that we have problems there, and the member knows it, because she has toured the jail and knows that it is inadequate and that it does not meet the needs of the people who are incarcerated there. I think that it is unfortunate that the jail is in the condition that it is, but because the population of inmates has risen drastically, it is not able to meet their needs. We are going to have to look at an alternative, and we are doing that right now." That's May 16th, 1991, just about six years ago.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Cable: Indeed.

Speaking of the next Minister of Justice, or one of the subsequent ministers of Justice, he was in this House on March 30th, 1995 - or his twin brother was, perhaps - and he says - this is from Hansard, page 1658 - "A condition report on the facility was recently completed, which recommended improvements to deal with some of the immediate health and safety issues. Department officials, who are currently working to identify costs of various options, are responding to the report's long-term recommendations." That minister was right on top of the issue. He was going right at it, after the Barr Ryder report was put in his hands.

Then we have questions that were asked by myself in December of the present Justice minister, in a memo which she gave me, dated January 29th, 1997. She was talking about the Barr Ryder report. She says, "This report identified some immediate life safety issues that have since been addressed through upgrades done by the Department of Government Services. The report identified a variety of other serious, long-term problems with the facility, and it estimates that the cost of satisfactorily addressing the problems through upgrading the existing facility would be greater than the building's replacement value. As such, the report recommends that the facility be replaced with a new structure as soon as practicable."

She finishes off, "The previous government chose not to make a decision on this issue. This government has requested an analysis of options for dealing with WCC and Cabinet will be considering the matter in the near future. If you would like to discuss this further, please contact my office to set up a meeting." And, we took advantage of that offer.

The operative phrase is that Cabinet will be considering the matter in the near future. That's on January 29th, 1997.

Then we have the budget speech, where the Government Leader was telling us about the tightness of money and that there wasn't enough to go around. He says, at page 37 of the budget speech, "Some people would like us to build a new jail or a new administration building or a new school in their community, all in this first year of our mandate, but we can't do that either, not without creating a massive debt that would significantly limit our options in the future."

I have put questions to this minister in the House on the Barr Ryder report, and I asked her about her instructions to the department on the preparation of options available. Her answers were very unclear. I asked her when she had asked for that report. So, we're not in a position to judge either this minister's or this government's priorities.

But I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that throughout all these documents there is a common thread that the Whitehorse Correctional Centre has been viewed as an unsatisfactory institution virtually from the day it was built. It is not designed to assist in the rehabilitation of prisoners. It does not assist in the reduction of recidivism. There are structural problems. There are very real safety problems, which I believe this government would have us believe have been addressed, but these are certainly contradicted by the request for the occupational health and safety audit. There are very real security problems at that jail.

What I would like this minister to do - and I know she is anxious to get on her feet and rebut what I'm saying. What I'd like this minister to tell us is not that she's going to replace this jail tomorrow.

What are this government's priorities? Do they recognize the problems outlined in the Barr Ryder report and outlined in the various reports from the past and outlined in the statements that have been made in this House and outlined in the press comments that have been made by prisoners and by reporters? Do they view the conditions of the jail as serious and do they, at some juncture in the future, have a plan for replacing the jail? If so, when is this jail, which is an unsatisfactory structure on various counts, going to be replaced?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to speak to the motion that the Member for Riverside has put before us in the House this afternoon.

I do have to begin, though, by saying that there is nothing new in this debate. This is a subject that the member has raised in Question Period and that we've talked about in the House before and that we'll certainly be talking about during the Justice debate.

Nevertheless, I do want to assure the member at the very outset that as the Minister of Justice I'm concerned about the safety of inmates. I'm concerned about working conditions for correctional staff and I'm concerned about general prison conditions.

I toured Whitehorse Correctional Centre on January the 10th of 1997, and I have seen first hand the conditions there, as well as a considerable amount of work that has been done by the department in responding to the various studies, and I would just like to respond to the member's comments by going through the various issues that he has raised.

Barr Ryder Architects were retained to perform a physical assessment of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre to determine the measures required to improve the building's functional ability. This centre was built approximately 30 years ago by the federal government and was, in fact, not designed to meet existing standards, and certainly doesn't meet standards today.

The Barr Ryder report was completed in 1995. The previous government did not release the report, although we, as the Opposition of the day, had requested it because it addressed some security concerns. Our government did release a version of the Barr Ryder report earlier this year, which removed sensitive security information.

So, we gave the report to the Liberal caucus. There was no need to provide it in a cloak-and-dagger style to the media. We voluntarily made that information public, because we are committed to resolving the safety concerns that it addresses.

There is money in the current operation and maintenance and capital budgets to deal with safety concerns this year.

At this time, our government is unable to commit to a time line or a work plan for the replacement of the jail. This would be, as the Government Leader said in his budget speech, a major capital project, and it is not one that can be considered until research and consultation have been completed.

Consideration of such a project will have to assess the environmental, social, operational, functional, technical and spatial needs of adult corrections in the coming years.

The member, in his comments, referred to recidivism at Whitehorse Correctional Centre. I have to inform him that many federal studies show that recidivism is a problem in all of Canada.

In response to that, we are monitoring the programs that we have in place at WCC. We're working at improving the programs that are offered to inmates. We're also supporting crime prevention measures, many of which were identified in the Creating Safer Communities documents. We're supporting community justice initiatives. So, correctional services, in and of themselves, are not the entire picture.

To return to the Barr Ryder report and the other reports that have identified problems at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre, during 1995-96, the Department of Justice sponsored several projects to correct deficiencies that compromise safety and security at the centre. These included installation of large, mushroom-headed panic buttons for alerting central security, yard lighting improvements, an emergency generator transfer switch replacement, electromagnetic door locks that can be unlocked by central security in situations such as fire or earthquake.

Government Services staff also completed a lot of work that was recommended in the report. That includes cleaning of heating ducts, fans and kitchen equipment, humidifier repair, replacing boilers, reroofing the administration trailer, and replacing old smoke detectors.

The Whitehorse Correctional Centre has maintained an active occupational health and safety committee over the years, which has addressed issues such as upgrading windows in the living areas, immunization clinics for staff and general safety issues in the workplace.

Whitehorse Correctional Centre has a preventive maintenance program in conjunction with the maintenance agreement that exists with Government Services. This preventive program addresses basic repairs that are within the capabilities of facilities staff and is funded within the centre's annual renovations budget.

Whitehorse Correctional Centre staff conducts monthly building evacuation exercises, which allows staff to prepare for evacuation should a major disaster occur. The drills take into account the new emergency unlocking system that was installed last year as a result of the Barr Ryder report and the fire marshall's report.

Policies and procedures at the centre have been updated to ensure that the overall safety and security at the centre is maintained in a manner that is deemed comparable to national correctional standards.

The icing up of the emergency exit was a problem that was brought to the attention of senior officials this past winter. The department has been given capital dollars to address this issue in the coming fiscal year, and will continue to respond to other immediate life safety issues as they are identified.

There are also risk-needs assessments and correctional-programming strategies in place. Inmates participate in correctional programs that address issues related to their cognitive behaviour. Programs dealing with substance abuse problems, anger management and domestic violence. In addition, First Nation-specific programming is offered on a monthly basis at the centre, because of a collaboration between the Yukon government and Council of Yukon First Nations.

This approach to corrections has permitted staff to address the long-standing problems of many offenders, and is necessary because of the changing profile of the inmate population.

Yukon College maintains a campus site at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre that allows inmates to take various courses, including creative writing and art courses. Officials will continue to ensure that the Teslin minimum security centre is used to its fullest potential with inmates that meet a criteria acceptable to the community of Teslin and the Teslin Tlingit Council.

In the event of an emergency, there are contingencies in place for the safe and secure housing of offenders in other locations. These contingencies include sending offenders to other federal and/or provincial/territorial institutions through exchange of service agreements, and making use of RCMP cells or other residential placement facilities, depending on the security risk of the offender.

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the member bringing this item forward for debate. I do have an amendment to it, because I think that what I've spoken of this afternoon indicates that a lot of work has gone into responding to the Barr Ryder report, that we do have a plan in place, and that we are committed to following through with that.

Amendment proposed

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I move

THAT Motion No. 49 be amended by deleting the expression "urges the Government of the Yukon to deal immediately with" and substituting for it the following:

"commends the Government of the Yukon's coordinated response providing life and safety upgrades and preventive maintenance programs responding to".

Speaker: It is moved by the Minister of Justice

THAT Motion No. 49 be amended by deleting the expression "urges the Government of the Yukon to deal immediately with" and substituting for it the following:

"commends the Government of the Yukon's coordinated response providing life and safety upgrades and preventive maintenance programs responding to".

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the amendment before us addresses the key issues that we're debating today.

There is some very positive programming that is taking place at Whitehorse Correctional Centre. Overcrowding is a problem, and our government is actively looking at practical, effective alternatives to incarceration. We recognize that jail is not the only answer and is not necessarily even the best answer.

We are also working actively on crime prevention initiatives that we hope will help to reduce the need for incarceration.

The Barr Ryder report and others have made findings that have been addressed by this government and the previous government. There are real concerns at the jail, and we are addressing them. I want to thank the staff, who work very hard, for their continued cooperation and professionalism in working at Whitehorse Correctional Centre, and I encourage members to support the motion as amended.

Mr. Cable: Speaking to the amendment, I think it's much too early for any back patting on the part of the government. We have this health and safety audit that's being done by the Workers' Compensation group and it will be interesting to see what that brings out of the woodwork. We also have the Barr Ryder report talking about $2 million to deal with life safety issues, and I have yet to hear of the expenditures of $2 million by either this government or the previous government to deal with those particular issues.

We have, I think as recently as last January, I'm told - I have just received a note of a new emergency lock system failed in a drill last winter. So, I think the minister, if she believes that all the problems are solved, all the immediate problems are solved, I think she is not aware of all that is going on, and I would suggest to her that before she pats herself on the back that she wait for this health and safety audit to determine whether, in fact, more work has to be done in the immediate future. So, I will not be supporting this amendment.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Speaker, we on this side are, of course, concerned, as other members are, about the condition of the Whitehorse Correctional Centre and the many reports that have been written over the years.

As the Member for Riverside has said, the facility was built in 1960. In fact I think it was 1967. I think it was a centennial project gift from the federal government at the time. I think the NWT and the Yukon both got identical projects, I believe. Their jail is the same design as ours and I think I recall some discussion taking place a few years ago that it was sort of a federal government gift of several million dollars to build us a new jail.

In 1967, the federal government had some insight into where we might all end up, I guess, but it was a gift to the Yukon - a bit of an unusual gift, I might add, but that's what they chose to do.

Mr. Speaker, there are lots of design and growth problems with the Whitehorse Correctional Centre and the many reports, including the Barr Ryder report, point that out. I can understand the Member for Riverside bringing forward this motion and dealing with the concerns of the staff and of the inmates in that particular facility, because we

, as well as the government that is in power today, are concerned about the well-being of the staff and the people who are there.

There're also other realities that one has to live by in government, and so, when you receive these reports as we have - I can recall another report on a facility that we received years ago. It was a report of air quality problems in the Whitehorse Elementary School, and there was a recommendation to do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of upgrading to improve that. The government of the day, the New Democratic Party government, dealt with it the quickest way they could, keeping in mind the fiscal reality and budgets, and they spaced it out over a few years.

When we received the Barr Ryder report, it made some pretty strong recommendations about the facility and, in fact, the bottom line, I suppose, of the Barr Ryder report is that that facility has outgrown its usefulness. There has been a lot of changes in health and safety standards over the years, and the facility hasn't kept up.

I can tell the Member for Riverside that, as the Justice minister at the time, the instructions that I gave to the department were that we would deal immediately, as best we could, with the health and safety concerns.

I know that an awful lot of work was carried out. There is - and there was - a real coordinated effort on behalf of the staff and the Department of Justice and, in particular, the people in corrections who worked very hard to improve the health and safety issues and, as well, in bringing in new programs for the inmates that were in the facility.

Now, it's not all perfect yet, and as the Member for Riverside has pointed out, there was a failure of the door system early this winter when they tested a new system, and I guess, Mr. Speaker, that's why we test them. That's why we carry out those kinds of drills, to make sure that, if there are any problems with the fire bells going off or the doors opening automatically or anything else, that we see how fast we can get people out of the facility and see how fast we can react.

Thank goodness it was just a test, or just a drill, but that's exactly what it was, and that's what they do in many facilities. I'm sure that the problem that came up was dealt with by the officials to make sure that the facility worked properly the next time.

I think there are other questions that have to be dealt with, with respect to building a new Whitehorse correctional facility, and I don't think the minister - or the member who brought forth this motion - has really discussed them here today.

One area I think that has been brought up to us, I think by federal officials, and even by our own officials, is whether we change the status of our facility and go from a two-year-less-a-day, to a four-year-less-a-day, or a five-year-less-a-day facility, because there are problems with correctional facilities in other parts of Canada, as well.

I know the federal government was interested somewhat in discussing with us the future of that facility.

If that happens down the road, I think that is something that any government of the day will have to come back to the people for, and develop a consultative process where Yukoners are involved in keeping people who are incarcerated here. The ones that are over two years and the ones that are four years and less - they'll be a little more serious criminals and in for crimes that are a little more serious than what we see now. I think there has to be some type of a discussion among the public about whether or not we want to see that happen.

I understand that if that does happen, the federal government may be willing to help in providing some funds for a new jail - maybe another centennial gift for us; another new jail. Maybe we could speak to the Liberal candidate in the federal election that's on right now and get a promise of a new jail.

I think the realities are that we do have an old building. We do have some problems in the old building that have been identified, but I think that another reality is that there is some work being done. There is a coordinated response, not only by this government, in dealing with it, but by the previous government.

I think that one of the briefings that the minister would have received when she first took over that portfolio was where is the jail at, what can we do and what has been done? I felt comfortable - not totally satisfied, because I think eventually we are going to need a new jail - that there was genuine effort being made by the officials in the department and the officials in the Whitehorse Correctional Centre to deal with the health and safety issues of the Barr Ryder report.

Now, the member mentions that the health and safety audit that's coming up may address some other issues. I'm sure it will, and I'm sure that there will be some recommendations that might come out of that report.

I think that we, on this side, can support the amendment that's put forward by the government, with a cautionary note. I would like to hear from the minister at some time in the near future about what they plan to do about the facility. I know the minister mentioned last December that they were looking at various options. I know what the minister's options are - I looked at the same options - and every one of them is very expensive.

It's a very complicated issue and, at the same time, the minister is dealing with overall financial constraints with the demands for new schools, new health facilities, other new facilities in the social area, and so I guess it's a matter of trying to balance that with a need for a new correctional facility. We shouldn't do that at the expense of the lives or the health and safety of the employees and of the inmates of the facility. I do have some confidence in the Department of Justice and in the employees of Whitehorse Correctional Centre that they are doing their best to not put at risk the employees of the Correctional Centre and the inmates.

So, Mr. Chair, having said that, we on this side can support the amendment, but, like I said, I would like to hear a little more from the minister in the near future about where we're going with this issue. I think it's one that the previous NDP government put off a bit, and one that we didn't deal with completely, and one that this government in this budget hasn't dealt with completely, and someone very soon is going to have to deal with this issue, and we can all hope that the measures that have been taken to make the place safer will be adequate enough in the interim.

I think that the amendment to the motion, as put together by the minister, really talks about the coordinated response provided and the life and safety upgrades and preventive maintenance, and I think the previous government and this government have made legitimate attempts to provide for the health and safety improvements. There is always more you can do, and I think there is more being done. There is even more money in the budget this year to continue with some of the work in the facility, so it's going to be an ongoing thing, but one day, we're going to have to bite the bullet, I guess, and some decisions are going to have to be made. I don't think anyone is going to get away with building a new facility - even on that site - without a public consultation process.

The site, when it was built in the 1967, was pretty remote in the scheme of things. There was an army camp in that area and there weren't a lot of things around it and now there's the Yukon College at the top of the hill. There is other growth in that area. The government has sold public housing, I think, in the Takhini area now, and so I guess if we're going to look at building a new facility or building a remand facility or building any new facilities, there probably has to be some consultation with people in that area and that's going to take some time. Even if the government started tomorrow, I would imagine it would be a two- or three-year process before one would see a new facility being constructed.

Mr. Speaker, I think, as well, if the government does plan to build a new facility that it look at other options that have been pursued in other jurisdictions and, if there's going to be a new facility, maybe Whitehorse isn't the only place that they would consider building it. I think that's something that could be considered, as well.

When people are employed in jobs as correction officers and that kind of thing, that provides pretty stable employment in any community. If we had difficulty rebuilding on that particular site, then maybe there are some other options there. I'm just throwing out ideas; I'm not suggesting it's the be-all and end-all, the answer to it all. It's a very difficult question to deal with. I think the government is, at the present time, using the resources it has up there in the best manner it can in dealing with the health and safety issues.

So, we on this side can support the amendment that's put forward, but would like a little stronger commitment from the government of where it is going with the issue and maybe an answer from the minister about whether or not they intend to at least start consultations or discussions with people in the general public about the need or when we're going to start a new facility. Are they going to do that in their first mandate?

What I'd like to see is if the government is committed. The minister has said that she is committed to making changes. The minister has said that she understands that there are problems, and I'd like to hear a little clearer from the minister whether or not she intends on taking bigger steps than she has already taken with respect to planning of the eventual new facility.

Speaker: Question has been called on the amendment.

Some Hon. Member: Division.

Division

Speaker: Division has been called. Mr. Clerk, would you kindly poll the House.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Agree.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Agree.

Mr. McRobb: Agree.

Mr. Fentie: Agree.

Mr. Hardy: Agree.

Mr. Livingston: Agree.

Mr. Ostashek: Agree.

Mr. Phillips: Agree.

Mr. Jenkins: Agree.

Mr. Cable: Disagree.

Ms. Duncan: Disagree.

Mrs. Edelman: Disagree.

Clerk: Mr. Speaker, the results are 13 yea, three nay.

Speaker: The ayes have it. I declare the amendment carried.

Amendment to Motion No. 49 agreed to

Speaker: Is there any further debate on the motion as amended?

Mrs. Edelman: During the September 1996 territorial election, I was fortunate enough to receive a tour of Whitehorse Correctional Centre. Over the years, I have had a number of friends who have worked up at the jail and I've heard some stories about the conditions up at the Whitehorse Correctional, but nothing could have prepared me for what I saw up at the facility.

The most obvious problem is overcrowding. The jail was built for 39 inmates. Two winters ago, there were over 100 prisoners. You can, if you wish, truly reach out and touch someone from any bed in the place. Viruses run rampant in the facility, and not just cold and flu viruses, but also skin viruses, some of which present as constantly running sores, which are the norm in the place.

I will read to you from an article that appeared in the Yukon News recently: "'There're always line-ups to see the nurse,' said the inmate, noting the overcrowded prison has stagnant air and is a hotbed for germs which, given the cramped conditions, are easily spread. 'One guy caught the flu four times in one month,' he said, and added that there are a lot of sickly guys around. During a tour of the prison, the News found cigarette butts, used kleenex and dustballs the size of a fist littering the floors of some cells of the dormitory.

"The prison has none of the sterile qualities normally associated with a correctional facility. During the tour, a putrid smell was emanating from the nurse's exam room, but once inside, the source could not be traced. Health hazards beyond filth are well-documented in a prison review done by Barr Ryder. Sewer pipe systems within the crawlspace of the building are subject to major leaks, affecting performance of the heating, ventilation and mechanical systems and also creating a health hazard. "

Asbestos insulation appears to be installed throughout the facility and does not appear to be in a stable condition, as a result of air movement across the insulation. Asbestos is a mineral fibre, which was commonly used as a fire retardant insulation in older buildings and disturbed asbestos can release health-threatening fibres too small to be visible. After they are inhaled, they can accumulate in the lungs and cause lung cancer, mesothalomia, which is a cancer of the chest and abdominal linings, and asbestosis, which is an irreversible lung scarring, all of which can be fatal.

Now, for some prisoners, the correctional facility is actually good for their health. Chronic problems, which need to be managed closely, such as type one diabetes, heart and blood pressure problems, are well-monitored in prison, unlike on the street, where many of the inmates end up after their sentences are complete. But I should note here that there is a very good program through the community health nurse, and she does some good work for the people that do come out of that facility. For the staff, though, this is not a good place.

Now, I'm in extremely good health, and I have a very high fitness level, but by the end of my tour of Whitehorse Correctional Centre I was short of breath, starting to wheeze, my eyes were sore and watering, my nose was running, and my skin was itchy, and that wasn't very nice.

The facility was built on sand, and for the ball diamonds across the street that's excellent, but for the jail, you end up having a constantly shifting structure. As the ground freezes and thaws each year, more cracks appear in the building. We have constant small earth tremors, and more cracks appear in the building. The infrastructure for water and sewer service cannot take the strain. Pipes often break. If it is a water or sewer pipe, liquid gushes under the building and causes further instability in the structure. If it is a sewer pipe that breaks, the stench is unbelievable and the hazard to inmate and guard health is high. You can see the cracks in the walls. You can see where the ground has buckled by the linoleum that sticks up in the middle of hallways. It's a type of hell.

One area of the building that was particularly loathsome was the section called "remand". There is no sunlight in remand. Prisoners are made to spend up to a month and a half, in some cases, waiting for trial in this area. Some prisoners are there for up to a year. Remand is lit by bare lightbulbs. It's dark. It smells. It is too warm. It's like something from one of those old war movies where they picture an area for war prisoners who are being tortured, and people have to live and work in that space every day in 1997 just at the top of Two Mile Hill. Staff are sick quite often and so are the inmates.

There is some good work going on up at the prison, despite the appalling working conditions. Job training and literacy programs are well-received and well-delivered, and the only problem is that people are sick all the time. This unhealthy atmosphere does not make for conditions that are conducive to learning. The atmosphere at the jail is actually somewhat more akin to what I envision the work environment was like in the work houses of the 1800s in London, England, under grey, cold, polluted skies. In short, any one of Mr. Charles Dickens' characters could feel quite comfortable at Whitehorse Correctional Centre. This is not a modern facility, nor is this a historic site. The jail should be torn down and replaced.

There have been a number of creative financing plans developed over the years to support the construction of a new correctional facility. The type of inmate at the jail has changed over time. The jail was built for much lower-level security inmates, and the typical prisoner today is more violent and has a much longer record than the type of inmates envisioned in 1967, when the jail was built.

It is possible to get federal funding for a correctional facility if the prisoners have greater than two-year sentences, and if you took that money that we are wasting trying to save this derelict building, plus the federal cost share, you could built a brand-new, safe jail for the Yukon, and if you made the sentence length of the new facility five years or less, then you could also keep 90 percent of the Yukon prisoners here in the territory. Family and community support would be available to those prisoners that normally would have gone to outside jails, and that sounds like a long-term cost-saving solution.

It sounds like a life-saving solution. Prisoners could get the support they need. Staff'll be working in a much healthier environment and we, the taxpayer, would stop wasting our money on an old, unsafe, unhealthy jail.

Now, the type of people that we house in the correctional facility, well, they're not the best people in our population, and that's why we incarcerate them. We want them out of sight, out of mind and away from our families, but here in the Yukon we may be going overboard, because we house our unwanted animals in a facility that is cleaner and safer than the Whitehorse correctional facility.

What is really abominable is that we put these people to work in this facility 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Now, I'm not too sure that I do have a lot of sympathy for the inmates at the Whitehorse jail, especially because some of their crimes I find totally disgusting, but I do feel a great deal of empathy for the really good staff at Whitehorse Correctional Centre, and I think that they deserve a decent work environment. I think that all YTG staff deserve a healthy and safe work environment. It's my hope that this government looks beyond how many votes replacing the jail is going to cost them and think of the well-being of, if no one else, the staff at corrections.

Replacing the jail makes good economic sense. Replacing the jail is just plain practical, and hopefully this government can look beyond political considerations and see the wisdom of following the recommendations of the Barr Ryder report and replace the jail.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I'm not going to speak overly long on this, but I think there are a number of things that I would like to sort of address with regard to this. The impression, I think, has been left somewhat unfairly that the government - either the previous government or this government - does not care about inmates or staff health at Whitehorse Correctional Centre. I think if we take a look at some of the activities that have gone on in the last period of time, I would be remiss if I did not bring to the Legislature's attention some of the work that has gone on cooperatively between Justice and my own department, Government Services.

No one disputes the fact that WCC could probably use replacement. However, until the previous speaker had addressed the House, I didn't realize that the federal government was poised, so to speak, to dump vast millions into this. I'm sure that sort of undertaking by the Liberal Party is certainly welcome news to the Minister of Justice who has, I'm sure, been wondering up until just a couple of moments ago where the tens of millions of dollars are coming. Now we've been assured, and no doubt we'll receive a missive very, very shortly from Ottawa from Allan Rock, based on this, that $40 million or $50 million will be coming in the form of a cheque, because that's the impression that I got. Perhaps, am I mistaken? Apparently not.

Well, since I'm still waiting for the Prime Minister to come in the door with the some $28 million that is owed to us for the money from Indian Affairs, I guess we'll have to give them an opportunity to get their ducks in a row and make sure that we get the first cheque for the Indian Affairs monies outstanding, and then we can cash the $50-million cheque for WCC.

I am very reassured that the Liberal government and the Liberal Party up here has made a commitment to the necessary cash to replace WCC, and we look forward to that in the very near future.

However, I digress. What I'd like to do is just comment on some of the things that have gone on at WCC, because I really think that my department, the Department of Government Services, has been unnecessarily maligned, because I would like to just note some of the work that has been undertaken by Government Services in attempting to redress some of the shortcomings at WCC.

Between the summer of 1995 and January of 1997, approximately $210,000 worth of work was carried out. This involved large, mushroom-head panic buttons, which were installed in areas throughout the facility to maintain central security control should an incident occur. Additional lighting was installed in certain areas exterior to the building to improve visibility and permit security and control. An emergency generator transfer switch was replaced with a larger switch to match the generator.

All the exit doors were fitted with electromagnetic locks that can be unlocked simultaneously at central security control in case of an emergency, such as a fire or earthquake.

Other maintenance work that was carried out included the cleaning of heating ducts, fans and kitchen equipment to reduce airborne pollutants. Humidifier return repair - of course, we know that humidifiers are often a breeding source for germs, so this was necessary and was done. We replaced the boilers. We converted from oil to propane. We rebalanced the heating, the ventilation and the air conditioning systems at WCC. We reroofed the administration trailer. We replaced the old smoke detectors. We repaired the fuel leaks around the piping. We sealed the boiler room to prevent fumes from escaping. We repaired the leaking sewage pipes. We removed or we are removing or encapsulating the asbestos insulation at pipe joints throughout the entire plumbing system. This was noted as being a threat for asbestosis.

A couple of those health problems mentioned by the previous speaker have been addressed. As well, the ducts, the air fans, the dampers, the kitchen exhaust fans, the laundry dryer vents, have all been cleaned and repaired.

So I'm somewhat concerned that an unfavourable impression of the efforts of Government Services and Justice has been left. However, I'm once again very encouraged by the commitment from the Liberal Party - who no doubt speak on behalf of their colleagues - that the cash to replace WCC is forthcoming. I'm sure we'll all look forward to that. I can tell you that when the funds begin to flow - as they do from the great federal tap - we in Government Services will be standing by, ready to undertake the project management on this. I can assure the Member for Riverdale South we're eagerly awaiting that. If she could get us on this side an indication of when we could expect the cheque, I'm certainly looking forward to it so I can alert my department. Thank you.

Mr. Cable: If I rise, Mr. Speaker, I'll close debate. There may be some other worthies on the opposite side that have a few comments.

Speaker: If the member now speaks, he will close debate. Is there any further debate?

Mr. Cable: I was interested in the mental gymnastics of the Member for Whitehorse West, the Health and Social Services Minister. All that was missing was the usual quote from the Bible, "There's a time for nonsense and time for clear thinking."

It is strange how the government can push for devolution on the one hand and then when it comes to doing what it should be doing, it wants to retain the federal umbilical cord. When the monies flow from the federal tap, I think the minister said, he's waiting there anxiously for the weekly 747 to fly in with the one dollar bills, which indicates to me that this government, as I have suspected, is not really, seriously thinking about addressing the problem at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre.

The position that we are in is that, through our protocols in this House where motions can be substantially amended and actually reverse the thrust of the motion, we will be voting against the amended motion. We do not think this government has seriously addressed the problem. The Barr Ryder report certainly indicates that they are of much greater magnitude than the gum and sticky-tape solutions that have been put on the problem to date.

So I have to say that I am very disappointed that the government has not recognized the problems that the staff are certainly concerned about, that the prisoners are concerned about, and that many people in the street are concerned about. All they've done with the motion is give themselves a rather artificial pat on the back, and we won't be supporting the motion as amended.

Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible)

Speaker: Question has been called.

Are you prepared for the question on the motion as amended?

Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible)

Speaker: Are you agreed?

Division

Speaker: Mr. Clerk, would you poll the House.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Agree.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Agree.

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Agree.

Mr. McRobb: Agree.

Mr. Fentie: Agree.

Mr. Hardy: Agree.

Mr. Livingston: Agree.

Mr. Ostashek: Agree.

Mr. Jenkins: Agree.

Mr. Cable: Disagree.

Ms. Duncan: Disagree.

Mrs. Edelman: Disagree.

Clerk: Mr. Speaker, the results are 12 yea, three nay.

Speaker: The ayes have it. I declare the motion carried.

Motion No. 49 agreed to as amended

Clerk: Motion No. 65, standing in the name of Ms. Duncan.

Motion No. 65

Speaker: It is moved by the Member for Porter Creek South

THAT this House recommends that funding presently allocated for the Yukon Anniversaries Commission in the budget years following 1997-98 continue to be used for the promotion and enhancement of the Yukon's tourism industry.

Ms. Duncan: It's an honour to rise today to present for House debate and discussion a positive motion regarding Yukon's tourism industry generally and support for the Yukon Anniversaries Commission most specifically.

The Tourism minister is often fondly described by many Yukoners as the Minister of Fun. Truly, this is the department that gets to party. Of course, it isn't all fun and games, and any minister or industry person who has stood at a Yukon booth at a trade show, like the Seattle Trade Show, the International RV Show at B.C. Place, the Vancouver Sportsmen's B.C. Great Outdoor Show or the Alaska Sportsmen's Show, will tell you that it certainly isn't all fun, and it isn't all a party.

Much as we all love the Yukon and want to share our beautiful home with visitors, it can be hard work convincing the general public that this is the place to spend their tourism dollar.

The tourism dollar - it's a little appreciated industry. I'd like to share with the House some of the recognition by other governments of just how much of an economic generator tourism can be. The tourism sector has a proven track record of creating jobs in all regions of our country. When the Canada Tourism Commission was created in 1995, the federal government tripled its funding for tourism promotion, from $15 million to $50 million per year. The Canadian Tourism Commission has attracted about 1,400 partners who are expected to contribute over $65 million this year, and this surpasses the $50-million challenge that was originally issued when the Canadian Tourism Commission was originally created.

What does the Canadian Tourism Commission do? Its budget is being increased by $15 million a year for the next three years, and the funds are used for the promotion in foreign markets to ensure that Canada's tourism potential is fully realized over the coming years. Partners in the private sector match the federal government, dollar for dollar.

The federal government budget allocates $45 million in new funds over three years for tourism promotion and a further $50 million for the Business Development Bank of Canada to help finance private sector tourism infrastructure.

In support of the tourism industry, the federal government is also proposing a review of the visitors rebate program, which is the rebate of the GST - an important recognition of the importance of the tourism industry.

Despite having many competitive advantages in Canada - we have wide-open spaces, natural resources, First Nations tourism products and a safe, clean environment, all of those items that the Yukon has - Canada's overall share of the international tourism market declined in the early 1990s. This was due in part to inadequate marketing and promotion, a lack of the highest quality tourism products and a low skill level among those working in the industry.

The 1994 report of the Hon. Judd Buchanan, who was the special advisor on tourism to the Prime Minister, noted that Canada's $7.9-billion tourism deficit could be significantly reduced if all tourism stakeholders worked collectively to seize the opportunities before us.

Tourism currently sustains 1.3 million Canadians or 9.7 percent of the workforce. Over the next decade, tourism employment in Canada is projected to enjoy a rate of growth in excess of that of other industrial sectors. Over the next 10 years, 500,000 more workers will be required in Canada's tourism industry. A leading Canadian futurist, Frank Feather, believes that tourism will become Canada's largest employer by the year 2000 - three years away.

Jobs, jobs and more jobs is what the tourism industry is about. How does that apply to the Yukon? Well, according to a 1990 study that was conducted into Yukon tourism training needs, 2,500 people are employed year-round in tourism in the Yukon.

The number of people employed doubles during the visitor season. Those are important statistics. They're important to the Yukon and they're, of course, important to the tourism industry. The tourism industry presents, for all of us, untold opportunities.

Tourism is supported, of course, by an infrastructure. That infrastructure includes many things that Yukoners take for granted - our roads are excellent, as well as the Whitehorse airport facility and other facilities. It's also supported by industry standards for service, and I'd like to single out, for recognition, the Yukon Tourism Education Council's efforts in terms of the tourism training and training for our employees.

With respect to tourism training, the various governments of Yukon have made quite a commitment. In 1994-95, the Tourism Industry Association was responsible for training, and $186,000 was allocated through the tourism economic development agreement for tourism training.

In 1995-96, the Yukon Tourism Education Council received almost $200,000 for education and training. In 1996-97, there's $170,000. The Yukon Tourism Education Council is governed by a council. It has training programs, occupational standards and professional certification for employees, and, most importantly, it works with the tourism industry.

Also, part of our infrastructure is the Tourism Industry Association. This industry association receives approximately $100,000 in funding per year from the Government of Yukon. They are the umbrella organization for tourism. They deal overall, one could say, with the health of the industry. They are a lobby group.

Just a short look at their strategic planning meeting tells you the sort of issues that this industry encounters. There are the political issues: the lobbying of MLAs and ministers. They sell advertising in the vacation guide as part of their fundraiser.

Tourism awareness - part of what we're doing today, making Yukoners aware of the importance of the tourism industry. There are individual member issues, regional tourism development, winter marketing, trade show coordination, networking, liaison with the Tourism Marketing Council, membership drives, coordinating various projects, the ever-present fundraising, participating in the job fare, and, of course, answering visitor inquiries.

We also have the First Nation Tourism Association who have received, or will receive, funding under this year's budget, which is something that the Liberal caucus is very much in support of.

First Nations ecotourism is a growing business and the number of Yukon First Nations getting involved in it is increasing. I note for you the executive director's comments in a news report in early March: "Debbie Parent Delafoss says there is more and more demand from foreign tourists to experience First Nation culture first hand."

This is possible in a number of ways. "Sharing the aboriginal culture or the First Nation culture with low impact on the environment, so it could be through culture camps or guiding, horseback riding, canoeing, boating, or any other area. Other products are the arts, the crafts, the stories, legends and, of course, the culture itself." And, of course, her remarks are supported by the tremendous interest and attendance at the First Nation tourism conference held later in the month of March.

The City of Whitehorse has a tourism coordinator. There's also the convention bureau, which operates under the Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce. It's also noted for funding in the Government of Yukon budget, some $25,000, although I would note the organization's overall budget revenue last year was $117,000.

Related to the discussion of conventions, I would refer to a news report in late March, wherein the former Grand Chief of the Council of Yukon First Nations, Shirley Adamson, and the current Minister of Tourism attended the Arctic Council and have urged that council to hold their meetings here in 1998. That sort of attraction of conventions and meetings is something that the Convention Bureau has done very, very well.

There's also the Klondike Visitors Association. This organization's record speaks for itself, if anyone travels to Dawson and sees the remarkable work of the organization. I also would note that they must be the only non-profit organization that turns money back to the Yukon government, submitting some $200,000 a year, I believe, although I stand to be corrected on that.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Ms. Duncan: The Member for Klondike is telling me it's almost $300,000 - a sizeable chunk of change.

There's also the Wilderness Tourism Association, and I understand the government is working with them in terms of guidelines for the industry.

There is the Department of Tourism, which works with all of these organizations and, of course, with the government in support of our tourism industry.

The Yukon Anniversaries Commission, specifically, is budgeted to receive $285,000 in funding from the Government of Yukon this fiscal year. If one examines the Yukon Anniversaries Commission budget closely, you'll find that the $285,000 is matched, and indeed exceeded, by private sector contributions.

They showed in their financial documents, contributions from Holland America, White Pass, Norcan, Yukon Electrical, Davis and Company, the Gold Rush Inn, the Yukon News, PR Services, the Downtown Hotel in Dawson City, Inkspirationz Graphix, Integraphics, Canadian Airlines, Air North, Alcan Air and Whitehorse Beverages.

The Yukon Anniversaries has raised annual sponsorships levels and its own cash revenues from the sale of licensing and merchandise. This does not suggest that the Yukon Anniversaries Commission should then stand alone through private sector support - no. The Yukon Anniversaries Commission is very much a living example of Yukoners working together, private sector and government pulling together.

In effect, the $285,000 contributed by the Government of Yukon makes each Yukoner a partner at the table with private sector businesses. And I stress the word "partnership" because that is exactly what it is all about. Without either the private sector contributions or the Government of Yukon, the Yukon Anniversaries Commission's efforts would be lost to the Yukon, and I stress those words, "to the Yukon" because all the Yukon communities are participants.

As legislators we must ask, "Well, is this the best bang for our buck?" The anniversaries idea was one thing, but well, let's move on to other marketing ideas, you might say. Well, in response to that, I have two points. The job isn't done. My second point: let the Yukon Anniversaries Commission be part of their own devolution.

It may be that the Yukon Convention Bureau will cease to exist due to its inability to generate the type of partnerships we've seen with the Yukon Anniversaries Commission. That may happen. Perhaps it would be a natural progression from the special, specific events of the anniversaries to the overall recruitment of conventions. Perhaps there are some other future ideas for this organization.

The board of directors who have worked so closely with the industry and with communities and with community events will likely have their own very constructive suggestions for the future life. I urge the government to listen to what they have to say, not just with their reports and their statistics, but with their hearts and with an open mind. Know that Yukoners have recognized the value and the efforts of commission staff and volunteers.

My motion says that monies presently allocated should be continued to be used for the promotion and enhancement of the Yukon's tourism industry. I would be terribly disappointed if this motion were supported and the monies kept in the Tourism budget and then a turf war erupted over where the money should be allocated.

I've just listed any number of tourism organizations that could certainly make use of additional funding. I believe that the Anniversaries Commission should be allowed to finish the job, with the Government of Yukon as a full partner, as I have noted before.

Secondly, I believe that the board volunteers and staff must be participants in their own devolution.

Now comes the hard part. How then should the monies be used for the promotion of Yukon's tourism industry? I don't have a magic answer for the minister and the government. It isn't magic and it isn't rocket science. I believe that if we listen to what the players, the partners, the staff and the volunteers have to say about the future direction of the tourism industry in the Yukon, if we truly listen and hear with an open mind, open heart and, most importantly, with vision, we will come up with the best allocation of our tourism dollars.

The minister's task is to ensure that everyone comes to the table. That would include all of the organizations: the Government of Yukon, the Tourism Industry Association, the First Nations Tourism Association, the Wilderness Tourism Association operators, the Klondike Visitors Association, the City of Whitehorse, the Convention Bureau, the Yukon Tourism Education Council and, yes, the Yukon Anniversaries Commission. All of these people come to the table with the best interests of Yukon's future tourism industry at heart.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Thank you very, very much, Mr. Speaker.

It does indeed give me privilege and honour to be able to stand here today and to talk about the ministry of fun, because it certainly is. I think that many of us here can attest to that; it is a fun thing to do to be able to stand and promote - and I know that not only myself, but everyone else in this room would be able to stand in this room and talk about the uniqueness, goodness and quality of life that tourism could bring, so I certainly thank the member opposite for bringing that and all of the other points that the member opposite has brought forward. I thank the member opposite for bringing those points forward.

Certainly my government does take tourism very seriously. It is not simply fun. People love to be speaking about what tourism has to offer, about the Yukon, about our cultures and our different varieties of cultures, about our anniversaries, about all these wonderful things. I certainly can rise to the occasion with them and agree with them that it is important.

It is also very near and dear to my heart, personally, as a Yukoner, to think that we might be able to sustainably develop the tourism industry and to keep Yukon first and foremost and make it the number one industry. That is something I strongly believe in. I do know that other examples - global experiences from around the world, such as Switzerland and other tiny nations - do make their number one industry tourism, and certainly I will be working in the years to come for that end.

Certainly, in this document A Better Way, we spoke about tourism and the opportunities that tourism brings, and I'd just like to quote from that, if I may, for a few moments please.

We spoke about jobs and the economy. Well, let me say that we are committed to the jobs and economic diversity; the economic diversity that provides opportunities for Yukon people from a wide variety of backgrounds. People want to stay - the move to Brooks Brook or Timber Point, where I live, for a specific purpose. They live at Marsh Lake, they live at Fox Lake. They live all over this beautiful Yukon.

I think it's incumbent upon us to start to develop this and to continue the development of this industry, so that people may be able to stay in their community, because, certainly, tourism won't offer the opportunity of economic diversity to enable people to stay in their own neighbourhood and to show off what they have in the Yukon. There's just so much to see in the Yukon that I do believe it is possible.

We need to work hard to help the rural communities and industry to diversify their economic bases and to capture the benefits of regional developments or tourism developments. That is what we said in one segment of A Better Way.

Certainly, when we spoke about tourism and the growing opportunities in tourism, we spoke of the Yukon's wild beauty, the colourful history and the unique characteristics that attract tourists from around the world.

I did say that on my European tour I spoke to many different people. I spoke to little old ladies on bicycles, I spoke to people that drove taxi-cabs and they all spoke about the beauty and wonder of Yukon. Some had been here and others has certainly wanted to come here.

It's a very important industry for many communities, and it's a big employer. This government certainly believes it deserves continued government support and encouragement, and this government will provide support for the tourism marketing, and it should be directed at the Yukon's strength, our culture, our history and our wildernes

s. These are all saleable. Certainly, they are saleable. We want to increase the number of tourist attractions. We want to streamline the marketing events. We want to work with First Nations to meet tourism commitments under the land claim agreements.

We did say that we are going to actively promote and continue with the promotion of the gold rush centennial.

We want to help with targeting the fast-growing wilderness tourism market for marketing and development. We want to provide the training. We want to work with industry. Those are things that we said.

It's very difficult for me to stand here and rebut any of the member opposite's statements, because, for the most part, they are very true; very absolutely true.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite spoke about so many different things: the Canadian Tourism Commission, and the monies that the federal government has brought forth and brought up - $50 million - and working with partnerships and that we must realize Canada's potential and we must get our adequate share - and right now it is inadequate - and inadequate marketing and it employs 9.7 percent of the workforce. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, we want to drive those figures up, and I think that we certainly can.

I was quite touched and warmed when the member opposite spoke about it being certainly supported by infrastructure here in the Yukon Territory, and it will be continue to be supported by infrastructure, so that we might be able to develop that diverse opportunity that we have - even if it means that we have to upgrade the Campbell Highway so that we might get tourism operators in that section, too.

So certainly, Mr. Speaker, there are many opportunities, and I thank the member opposite for the comments.

So certainly we'll be working with due diligence.

Mr. Speaker, it's always been my aspiration that - well, for gosh sakes, I'm a socialist. I'm a socialist from the three points, and I've said it in this House before. I come from Tlingit, Irish and Scottish ancestry, and each one of those meant that we'd work toward and for one another. To me, I reflect socialism within my ancestry and with what I am in today.

Certainly that doesn't mean that we just take things and shove things down people's throats. It means that, in my mind, we must provide leadership, of course, but we must provide that leadership through talking to the different peoples and the different segments of the tourism industry. That is why I like to think that I'm working closely with - as the previous minister has - and I'd like to work closer with the Tourism Industry Association. As I think members here know, certainly I think the people of the industry treat the Tourism Industry Association as the umbrella organization in the Yukon. I am now, and will continue to be, working closely with them.

So underneath that umbrella we have the Wilderness Tourism Association, the marketing council, the First Nations Tourism Association, and the list can go on, and the list does go on, and it can expand.

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, in my yearling years - if I could say that - as a minister here in Tourism, the minister of fun, I'm going to still work closely with the industry. I'm going to be working hand in hand with the industry, so that the industry will help direct me.

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I do not have my thumb on the pulse. That is where the Tourism Industry Association has their thumb. They have it on the pulse of the industry, and certainly, Mr. Speaker, I feel that by working closely with that organization, I will be able to respect the wishes and desires of that association and to move forward.

Mr. Speaker, I'm certainly not throwing out a wish list or a Sears or Eaton's - well certainly not Eaton's - catalogue and creating a wish list. No, Mr. Speaker. We must be acceptable of the fact that leadership has to be shown and will be shown, but it will be taken in the principles of consultation and, certainly, or transparently, so that people will know that I have a desire to move forward with tourism, as my government endorses, and certainly to do it based on partnership.

So we'll certainly be working toward that end.

The member opposite also spoke about the ability to listen and to listen openly with your heart and your ears, and certainly not just to listen without enacting, and certainly I will be working toward that end.

No, there is certainly no magic answer. I certainly don't have a magic answer, but I'm certain that by cooperation and working together we will avoid the turf-war situation that the member opposite had spoken about. I do not want turf wars. I want a good focused direction with tourism and to move toward that focused direction.

Mr. Speaker, I think as many members of this House know, tourism is central to our strategy of diversifying the Yukon's economy. My government's view of tourism is that we need a comprehensive strategy to promote tourism, and this means promoting more than just simply the anniversaries. Now, when I say that, and I've said it in this House before, I'm not looking just to say, "1998 and chuck them out." No, the work that has been done by the Anniversaries Commission and others within the tourism industry has been one of coming together and focusing. Of course, when I say "focus," the Tourism Marketing Council does go out - and I'm not sure if I've provided it, or if the member opposite has the Angus Reid recommendations, and if both critics don't have it -

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Keenan: You don't have it? I'll certainly be more than happy to provide you with these recommendations and some input as to the Tourism Marketing Council - and to the member opposite, do you have this? I will certainly make these available.

But, this is the focus of how we come together with what people want, and I apologize for not getting that over to you sooner, because certainly I want completely informed decisions when we come to make decisions in this House on this very critical avenue.

But, to this end, we have recently completed some of the focus-group testing, and we determined that while the image of the gold rush is well entrenched in the marketplace and is a very positive image, we can broaden the image of the Yukon to include First Nations culture. People want to see the First Nations, not just the brown faces deep in the forest, but they want to see how they lived and respect their history and our histories.

They want to see the beauty and the scenery of the Yukon with its unspoiled wilderness. Definitely, that's so much a part of the Yukon and why we live here. People want to see the history of human settlement, and the Yukon is the gateway to the settlement of the continent Beringia.

So certainly I'm supportive of all those things, and I guess I should be because that is what the focus group said that people want to see and people want to do.

So, in response to these findings, new images for the Yukon are being developed for further testing, and we will be working cooperatively with the Yukon Tourism and Marketing Council in approving the outcome of these efforts.

Certainly, as my budget speech and our debate on the Tourism budget will show - and I do believe that might be beginning tomorrow or will be beginning tomorrow - it will show that Tourism is one of the few areas of government that shows a net increase in the O&M expenditures. This does reflect our commitment to the arts and heritage components of Tourism and to supporting the development of the First Nations tourism product and to diversify tourism to build on the strengths of this industry - and I must say "the strengths of this industry" once more, so that it can benefit the tourism operators from around the territory.

As you know, Mr. Speaker, we cannot and will not tie the hands of government in its budgetary responsibilities. We certainly will consider continuing the funding levels we currently have in Yukon Tourism in future years, and we will do that through the auspices of the Tourism Marketing Council and the Tourism Industry Association and all the players that make up that association, including the KVA and others. I'm very serious about working with Tourism as the ministry of fun, but certainly again I reiterate that it is not all fun; it is a very serious responsibility that is alive and it is encumbent upon myself to live up to the words that I have just spoken.

For further information, the Yukon Anniversaries Commission funding is contained within the corporate services branch of Tourism and in the allotments, and this line item of $445,000 is made up of the Yukon Anniversaries Commission, $285,000; TIA, $100,000; and the First Nations Tourism Association, $60,000.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to reiterate that this government does support promoting and enhancing the development of the Tourism Industry Association and I can certainly support this motion, but what I would like to do, though, is amend this motion with one simple gesture.

Amendment proposed

Hon. Mr. Keenan: To that end, I move

THAT Motion No. 65 be amended by deleting everything after the word "recommends" and substituting the following:

"that the government consider allocating funding presently allocated for the Yukon Anniversaries Commission in the budget years following 1997-98 for the promotion and enhancement of the Yukon's tourism industry."

I have them passed out, and they will be coming to you forthwith.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Minister of Tourism

THAT Motion No. 65 be amended by deleting everything after the word "recommends" and substituting the following:

"that the government consider allocating funding presently allocated for the Yukon Anniversaries Commission in the budget years following 1997-98 for the promotion and enhancement of the Yukon's tourism industry."

Mr. Phillips: I rise today to speak in support of the motion put forward by the Member for Porter Creek South. I also can tell the minister that I do support, in principle, as well, his amendment, but I was planning on making a small amendment myself to the motion and I see that the minister's amendment has not included portions of mine, so I'm having our officials work on that to include that in the amendment. I'm sure that, in the context of the friendly amendment put forward by the Minister of Tourism, that when I add my friendlier amendment to his friendly amendment, we'll all be one big happy family.

The Minister of Tourism and the Member for Porter Creek South have talked about the importance of tourism to the Yukon, and there is no doubt about it that, five or six or seven years ago, tourism was there. Many Yukoners that were involved and lived in the territory used to somehow and in some ways dread about the middle of May or the first week of June when the RVs started coming up the road. People used to say they blocked their streets and they were in our way when we were trying to get to our cottages on the weekend. A lot of Yukoners didn't have a real appreciation of the value that was to them in their everyday lives. I think, over the past five or six years, we've become more aware of the value of tourism to us as individuals, even if we're not directly related to the tourism industry.

I was fortunate, Mr. Speaker, and I considered it extremely fortunate to be asked to be the Minister of Tourism in the past government and to be present when we saw the best consistent growth in tourism in the history of the Yukon. I think that the ground work has been laid in many areas and I don't take all the credit for it. I think the credit has to go to what I think is the best marketing department in any Tourism department across this country and the individuals who worked hard and brought forth their expertise and skill and great ideas on how to get our message out there.

So, I think the Minister of Tourism today is rather blessed to be in that department and working with a great staff over there who are absolutely dedicated to the cause - overworked - but certainly doing a fine job.

Mr. Speaker, the Yukon, in the past four years, exceeded our growth expectations that we had when we were in government - that growth of tourism. It also exceeded many other jurisdictions. I can remember going to Rendezvous Canada and other events where many of the other jurisdictions kept asking our people how we did it. Like I said, I think a lot of the credit has to go to the staff in the department, not only just the marketing staff, but staff from the heritage branch, the arts branch and Industry Services and everyone who put together their ideas and proposals over there. I think we were fortunate in having a very large group of talented people who have done a very fine job for a very small department, compared to other jurisdictions in this country, in getting our message out.

We had a real opportunity to get our message out in the fact that we had a significant event happen in the Yukon's history 100 years ago, and that was the great Klondike Gold Rush. Many people around the world had heard about it in one fashion or another and, Mr. Speaker, we took advantage of that in utilizing the media all over the world, in different cities in the world, who knew that people who had come to the Klondike of 1898 had either sought their fortune or had just made a journey here. Some of them had left their mark with interesting and fascinating stories. We used those stories to capture the attention of the media in those various cities across the world, and the promotion that we received from that was phenomenal. I think at the time we were looking at a ratio of three or four to one and we ended up with almost a 10-to-one ratio for the dollars we spent on tourism marketing. It is still, to this day, expanding and we're still getting promotion from that.

The Anniversaries Commission was set up under our government in late 1992 or early 1993. It kind of grew out of the highway celebration commission that was set up under the previous government. It was a similar idea. The role and mandate were set out, through which they were to not necessarily market the Yukon, per se, but to work with Yukoners and communities throughout the territory to develop events, things to see, things for people to do, over the anniversary years.

I notice, Mr. Speaker, the two speakers that spoke previous to me have not said a lot about the Anniversaries Commission. In fact, we've talked about it in a way like it's almost gone, and it's not gone. It's still very active. They're still working very hard. I think all members just received, either in the mail or by way of their local newspaper in the last week or two, a schedule of events for 1997, the year of transportation, which the Anniv