Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, May 12, 1997 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will call the House to order.

We will proceed with prayers at this time.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.

Are there any tributes?

TRIBUTES

In remembrance of Flo Kitz

Mr. Livingston: I rise in the House today to pay tribute to a friend, a respected colleague, and a one-time neighbour, Mrs. Flo Kitz.

She was born 50 years ago, roughly, on March 30th, 1947, and died last night, May 11th, 1997.

Flo was very dedicated to her husband, her son and her family and that's who I'd like to dedicate this tribute to.

She contributed to Yukon society both professionally and personally, was a very positive, upbeat and intelligent person, with an excellent sense of humour. She moved to the Yukon 25 years ago, shortly after her marriage to Ray Kitz. She worked as a teacher here, as a counsellor and as a vice-principal at Porter Creek Secondary School since its opening in 1982.

Flo always had the best interests of her students in mind and that's what guided her. Over the years, she led professional development activities at Porter Creek and, in the last couple of years, established the teacher advisory program at Porter Creek Secondary, which was a monumental task. It changed the school organization dramatically and enhanced student support.

She worked hundreds of unpaid hours to make the TAP program work and was often at the school in the early mornings, the evenings and on weekends - and this was after she knew that she was ill.

She received the Yukon excellence in education award for this work and for other initiatives that she undertook. She was also a member of the Association for School Health - the ASH Yukon - and the co-chair for a year, among many other community volunteer activities that she was involved in.

She organized events at school, including violence awareness and crime-prevention programs, and was famous in the last couple of years for the red licorice awards at Porter Creek, which recognized the achievements of students across the whole school. She had a knack for reaching those kids, even the hard-to-reach ones, and was appreciated for it and received hundreds of cards from students in the last few weeks wishing her well.

She became ill several years ago but maintained a remarkably positive outlook, worked on her master's in education degree despite a difficult struggle with her health and earned that master's degree in the spring of 1996, completed while receiving various cancer treatments and working full time.

She'll be greatly missed by her friends, colleagues and students, and family in the Yukon and throughout Canada and the world, for she touched many lives.

Our thoughts are with Ray Kitz and their son Jonathan, and Flo's brothers and sisters in southern Canada, and Ray's supportive family that has been here with him through these last difficult days of Flo's life. May they find strength in one another to see them through this time of grief. We thank you Flo for all you gave and for the many lessons that you taught us. We will miss you.

Mr. Phillips: I'd like to rise today, as well, and pay tribute to this very special Yukon person. I had an opportunity to know Flo and the Kitz family personally. I don't think I know anyone who was as well liked by her friends, her students and her colleagues. She worked tirelessly at her job and, even while fighting her illness as the government member has said, went back to improve her own education in attaining her master's degree.

Mr. Speaker, this is a very sad day for the Yukon. We've lost someone who, in her own view, had much more to do. I'm sure that Flo has left a strong legacy with many of us, and many people will pick up on the initiatives that she has begun.

Flo never really gave up, Mr. Speaker, although she only was with us a very short time really in the span of one's life. When she found out that she was ill, she really put in her heart and soul. Some people would give up, but Flo really put her heart and soul into her job, as it always was and even increased her efforts in that area to help others.

Mr. Speaker, Flo Kitz is a real inspiration to all of us and I'd like to express our sincere sympathy to Ray and Jonathan in their time of sorrow. We will not forget Flo Kitz.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, Flo Kitz was my constituent. She was a mother and a wife. She was an educator and a counsellor and she was an activist. I never knew Flo well, though I knew her husband Ray from my days at the city. I do have one memory of her that I will share with you.

I attended the women's awards a couple of years ago. A little late, a tallish woman, wearing a striking white outfit, topped with a turban, strode into the room. She sat at one of the front tables and, eventually, when she went to the stage to do a presentation, I realized who she was. She was confident and she was very much a stateswoman. She was wearing the turban because she was having problems with her hair. Apparently, the battle with cancer was progressing. I know what she was going through.

I know what she was going through. She lost her battle, but she was remembered not for that loss, but, rather, for her life. I pay tribute to Flo Kitz and, on behalf of the Liberal caucus, express my condolences to her family.

National Mining Week

Hon. Mr. Harding: I rise today in my capacity as Minister of Economic Development to draw members' attention to the start of National Mining Week in Canada. This week recognizes the important contributions that the mining industry makes to our economy and quality of life.

As members are aware, the mining industry is a critical component of the Yukon economy. It's the number-one industry and private-sector employer. In 1996, mining spent $110 million in exploration and development and produced over $5 million in minerals. Altogether, the mining industry accounts for a significant percentage of Yukon's economy and directly employs an estimated 1,300 people. It is the cornerstone of the economy. Often we forget how many products we regularly use depend on mining. There are obviously items such as aluminum windows, structured steel for buildings and automobiles, but also more hidden products, such as gypsum and wallboard, the copper wire that allows lights and telephones to operate and the gold and silver used in electronic equipment.

I encourage all members to participate in National Mining Week by taking the time to review the geology display in the foyer and I invite you to the open house at the geoscience office on Wednesday.

Mr. Cable: The mining industry is really the silent engine of our economy. The role it plays in our lives largely goes unrecognized. In Canada, it is a $23 billion industry and we are the world's leading exporter of minerals. Mining supports more than l,000,000 Canadians in 150 communities, and it employs directly 350,000 Canadians.

Canada is the world's largest producer of zinc and a major producer of gold, nickel, silver, copper and aluminum. What's more important, our mining companies, together with our governments, have learned how to mine while respecting the environment - something many countries have yet to learn.

I join in the salute to National Mining Week.

Canada Health Day

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all the health professionals in the Yukon on this, Canada Health Day.

Canada's health system is one of our country's greatest social achievements and in the Yukon we have a unique opportunity to build stronger links with our communities and to increase awareness and understanding of health and health care. This broad awareness of health and the health care system allows for greater community and individual involvement in defining health goals.

At the same time, I would like to recognize National Nursing Week. Today, incidentally, is Florence Nightingale's birthday.

Collectively and individually, nurses promote healthy lifestyles and help families cope with sickness and disease. They provide cost-effective, accessible and high-quality care.

Together, we are partners in the health challenge which, fittingly, is the theme for National Nursing Week this year.

Speaker: Introduction of visitors?

Are there any returns or documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have for tabling the Motor Transport Board annual report for 1995-96 and 1996-97.

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: I have for tabling two legislative returns.

Speaker: Are there any reports of committee?

Are there any petitions?

PETITIONS

Petition No. 3

Mr. Ostashek: I have for tabling a very timely petition, entitled "We demand affordable power rates". I say it's timely, Mr. Speaker, because the Utilities Board is hearing YEC's request for a 20-percent power increase today, which is mentioned in the petition.

Mr. Speaker, this petition has only been in circulation for two weeks and already has 1,029 names of Yukoners who are very, very concerned about their power rates.

Mr. Speaker, the petition will continue to be circulated and submitted to the Legislature as it comes in.

Speaker: Are there any bills?

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill No. 101: Introduction and First Reading

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I move that a bill, entitled Domestic Violence Prevention Act, 1997, be now introduced and read a first time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Member for Riverdale South that a bill, entitled Domestic Violence Prevention Act, 1997, be now introduced and read a first time.

Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 101 agreed to

Speaker: Are there any notices of motion?

Are there any statements by ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Community development fund: consultation completed

Hon. Mr. Harding: I rise today to announce that public consultations have been completed on the development of the new CDF, which fulfills a commitment made by our government to the Yukon public in the last election campaign. It is the policy of our government to support the development of strong, healthy communities.

In discussion with community leaders before and during the election campaign, our government recognized the need for a fund to assist with community development. Shortly after taking office, we moved quickly to establish an interim program, the community projects initiative, to meet these needs. The response to the interim program was overwhelming and reinforced the importance of a community development fund.

As part of the consultation on re-establishing the CDF, a survey questionnaire was mailed to First Nation governments, municipalities, non-profit organizations and societies. It was also available to the general public at libraries and Yukon government offices throughout the territory.

Of the 457 questionnaires mailed, 104 were returned. The information from the responses was compiled with the assistance of the Bureau of Statistics and a series of community meetings was held to clarify the results.

The consultation process asked people how they would like the CDF established to serve them and their communities. By conducting such a process, our government can respond to what communities have identified as their greatest needs.

The consultations indicated there were considerable differences between Whitehorse and the communities as to the needs the CDF should address. In rural areas, infrastructure development - and to a limited extent, employment and training opportunities - were identified as priorities by municipal and First Nation governments.

In Whitehorse, community participation was viewed as significant. It was felt that funds should be identified for planning, recreational projects and events.

This information is currently being compiled into a submission for Cabinet review, with options for re-establishing the program. The consultation process for the CDF fulfills our government's promises to involve people in the decisions that affect them and to support our communities.

It also demonstrates our government's belief that Yukon's municipalities are more than tourist destinations and single-industry towns; they are places where people have chosen to live and raise their families. The CDF will help develop strong, healthy communities by providing a way to meet identified community needs. Thank you.

Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Speaker, Standing Order 11(3), on ministerial statements, says, "A minister may make a short, factual statement on government policy."

I suggest to the member opposite that there's nothing in there about government policy. We're still waiting for the policy on the CDF to be developed. All he has done is update the consultation process, which I think is abusing Standing Order 11(3) in this Legislature.

I know that this government is smarting from the criticism that the budget has gotten from the public, as a non-job-creating budget. I know they are trying everything in their power to make it look like they are really doing something about the 15.3 percent unemployed in the Yukon. I would suggest to the minister that Yukoners are looking for some concrete actions, not flimsy statements in this Legislature.

Mr. Cable: The community development fund has, on occasion, been instrumental in helping communities develop worthwhile facilities. Unfortunately, the fund has the perception about it of being a ministerial candy store. Now, during the Economic Development budget debate, I asked the minister whether or not he would put some legislative cloth around this fund - set up a board, much in the same fashion as the business development fund has around it, and put some legislative terms of reference in the act. Now, he allowed that he would think about it, and he sort of scratched his head. Perhaps the minister could tell us if he is prepared to put this fund in an arm's-length position from the government and establish a statute to deal with the fund.

Hon. Mr. Harding: I hope, if there is such a board, it works better than the all-party committee on appointments to boards and committees.

I want to thank the members opposite for their comments. I think our statement is in keeping, certainly, with the precedents of ministerial statements in this House, as long as I have been a member. It's a statement on government policy with regard to supporting communities and developing communities. It's a concrete action that we're undertaking in that regard.

With regard to the unemployment rate, it's a concern, but we believe that unemployment has turned the corner this last month. It's on its way down, albeit slightly, but we believe we have made some significant strides, given that we've lost over 500 to 700 jobs as a result of the Faro mine shutdown, from the period of last April to this April. So, there's a long way to go and a lot more work to be done, but we're glad that it's on its way down. Incidentally, when the Curragh mine shut down, in 1993, the unemployment rate topped out at over 17 percent. Fifteen is not much lower than that, but it is somewhat of an improvement. We think we have some more work to do. Obviously we'll continue to do that. We believe the CDF will help to create some jobs in the communities, and we think that's a good thing.

European Commission/Canada student exchange

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Speaker, in his budget address on March 24, the Government Leader and Finance minister spoke about our government's commitment to being an active participant in the circumpolar world.

As evidence of that policy, I rise in the House today to announce a new study exchange involving Yukon and European students.

To initiate the Yukon College and the European Commission/Canada program for student mobility, three students from northern Sweden will come to the Yukon this fall to study at Yukon College. Students from the Yukon will travel to Rovaniemi, Finland to study at the University of Lapland.

This project is being funded by the European Commission and the Canadian government to promote better information exchange across the Atlantic. Yukon College and the University of Lapland were awarded $250,000 to develop a project that will eventually see 48 students from Europe and Canada spending one to two semesters at host universities.

On the European side, the partners are the University of Lapland in Finland, Umea and Lulea Universities in northern Sweden, and the University of Aberdeen in Scotland. On the Canadian side, Yukon College, Aurora College in the western NWT, Arctic Nunavut in the eastern NWT, and the University of Northern British Columbia will participate. Students at each institution are encouraged to develop study plans that are not only of interest to them, but will also be of value to their communities.

The Yukon's first three students are Priscilla Clarkin, Bretton McKinnon and Lise Farynowski. Their areas of study are northern comparative law, northern natural history, and tourism policy and practice in Scandinavia.

The Swedish students who will attend Yukon College next year are from Lulea and Umea Universities. They will be taking courses in the college's Northern Studies program and continuing their own independent research into areas such as North American land claims and community consultation processeses. These are areas in which we excel and which are of great interest to social scientists in northern Europe.

To keep communication ongoing, the Yukon College website will be linking up with the websites of the college's partner institutions, to find out more about their programs.

This week I will meet with Dr. Esko Riepulo, Rector of the University of Lapland, and with President Sally Ross of Yukon College. I will also be present for the signing of the partnership agreement.

Mr. Speaker, northern regions have much to teach and to learn from each other.

I look forward to meeting our Swedish scholars this fall, and to finding out what our Yukon students have learned on their return. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Phillips: We, on this side, support student exchanges of this kind, but I find the ministerial statement somewhat unusual, I guess, because it's not clear in the ministerial statement where the Government of Yukon itself is involved.

It appears that the European Commission and the Canadian government are the ones who funded the project, and the Yukon College themselves have worked on some of the negotiations. It appears that the only role the Government of Yukon has is for the minister to stand up in the House and tell everybody that everyone else is involved and maybe try to take some credit for it.

So, I'd be interested in knowing from the minister whether or not, other than being present at the signing - to stand in the back and watch the individual sign the document - and to make an announcement in the House today and to maybe pretend we're involved more than we are, the minister could maybe advise us: what involvement we did have in this? Were we part of the negotiations of the Government of Yukon or was it done by just the European Commission, the Canadian government and Yukon College, which is an independent body with an independent board?

Maybe the minister could provide that information for us when she replies.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, the previous government didn't seem to consider it to be particularly important to be involved in the circumpolar world. They backed off from participating in the Northern Forum. We're very happy to be starting again to re-establish links with other institutions in the circumpolar area. This is one example of that. I am quite proud of the new study exchange involving Yukon and European students.

Speaker: This then brings us to Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Porcupine caribou herd wintering range protection

Mr. Ostashek: The April unemployment rate figures are in now and the Yukon economy is stagnant, with 500 fewer jobs than there were a year ago in April.

As Yukoners have told this government, there is virtually nothing in this budget that provides them with any optimism for jobs in the coming year. And other actions by this government, such as high power rates and a request for the doubling of the staking ban in the Tombstone area, are making the mining community very, very nervous.

We now have another development that is emerging, and that's the application by Northern Cross to open wellheads that have been capped for some 25 years in the Eagle Plains area and in the range of the Porcupine caribou herd.

My question is for the Government Leader. Could he advise this House what position his government is taking with respect to developing in the range of the Porcupine caribou herd? Does he support the position that was taken by the Yukon Conservation Society that there should be no development in the entire range of the Porcupine caribou herd?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I wonder if the member will forgive me and allow me to respond to so much of his preamble that I must take issue with. I think the member knows himself that that would be expected.

There's a lot in the government's budget, of course, that does deal directly with direct job creation, and there's a lot that supports the job creation in the private sector. The trade and investment strategy that the Minister of Economic Development is promoting is receiving good support from not only the business community but many others who want to expand trading opportunities with other jurisdictions. Then we have a whole series of initiatives in the training area that are sponsored by the Minister of Education that are promoting training of individuals in this territory to take advantage of economic opportunities. We have other ministers, and we have the commissioner, of course, who's pursuing local hire policy development.

There are many things in this budget besides raw spending power that do promote economic activity and do promote job creation, so I have to take issue with the member's preamble.

With respect to the subject of Northern Cross, the position that the Government of Yukon has taken is that we support due process, as the member may be aware. An environmental review was done of the wellhead testing, and there was an environmental report subsequently developed, which was published for all to see, I believe about a week and a half or two weeks ago.

We believe that, when the environmental review process is kicked in, that all people should respect the outcome of that environmental review, so that we maintain our faith in the integrity of the environmental review processes that are in existence today.

Mr. Ostashek: The minister hasn't convinced me that there are jobs in the budget that they put forward, and he certainly hasn't convinced Yukoners of that, no matter what kind of words he says in this Legislature, and we'll do a post mortem on the budget about a year from now and see, in fact, how many jobs it did create.

Mr. Speaker, I'm very concerned about the answer that the Government Leader has given here. We all support due process. That isn't the question I asked. I asked what this government's policy was on development in the wintering range of the Porcupine caribou herd. That should be a very easy question for the Government Leader to answer and let Yukoners know what the position of this government is. Do we support development after due process, or are we against development in the wintering range of the Porcupine caribou herd?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Again, the member is going to have to forgive me when he tries to bootleg some nonsensical claims into the preambles of his question about the Yukon economy and the budget that we're debating in this Legislature. There's a lot that is in this budget. We've delivered at least a couple of ministerial statements every day, announcing new initiatives that apparently don't seem to excite the member opposite but which certainly are quite innovative, in my view, having been around for a while. They not only support Yukoners' abilities to find work, and there is a fair amount of spending, too, both on the capital side in terms of direct job creation and also typically on the operation side, that supports job creation. So, we've been doing a lot to try to promote economic activity in the territory.

Of course, what we did not have was the raw spending power of the tax-and-spend Ostashek government. We've already handicapped ourselves, from the Yukon Party's school of thought, by promising not to raise taxes. So, there are certain limitations that we have to respect here.

With respect to the answer given to the member with respect to the Northern Cross application, I did indicate what the proper answer should be. We do believe in due process when it comes to environmental screening. If a particular project is cleared through an environmental screening report, it should receive appropriate permits.

We have not taken a position that any project that is in the winter range of the Porcupine caribou herd or in the winter range of any other caribou herd in the Yukon should not be eligible for permitting simply because they happen to be in the winter range of a caribou herd. But we have indicated very clearly that we believe that there ought to be an appropriate environmental review process. We believe that the federal government has announced what the results of that environmental review process are and they'll shortly be making a decision with respect to permitting.

Mr. Ostashek: I don't know what to respond to that. The minister has backed me off so I won't give him any preamble on this so that he can get up and make another political speech on his budget.

I am very, very concerned because it appears now that this government has two positions on development on the range of the Porcupine caribou herd. They came out quite clearly and said absolutely no drilling in ANWR. Absolutely not. That's what the NDP said. Now he's saying if, after due process, after we let the federal government wear it all, we're not going to get our hands dirty with this, we will respect due process.

What position is this government taking? Is there development or no development on the range of the Porcupine caribou herd? I'm talking about responsible development that has all the permitting and has passed all environmental hurdles.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, the member has quite cleverly mixed apples and oranges here in posing the question in the first place. He's tried to make the claim that the summer range, the core calving area of the Porcupine caribou herd and the winter range are all the same thing. Of course, they are not. We have opposed completely any development activity of any sort in the core calving area of the Porcupine caribou herd, both on the American side and the 10-02 lands and also on the Canadian side now covered by a national park.

So, we have been very, very consistent in that respect - no drilling, no development activity in the core calving area of the Porcupine caribou herd. Any other development work in the winter range of the Porcupine caribou herd - or anywhere else in the territory - ought to follow due environmental review processes.

In our opinion, those environmental review processes have been conducted, and a result has been given, which in this particular case have identified no significant effects on the Porcupine caribou herd at all. So, from an environmental perspective, there is no reason why the application should be rejected.

Question re: Northern Cross

Mr. Ostashek: Well, we're starting to get closer. My question again is for the Government Leader on the same issue of Northern Cross. He's right. The Supreme Court report has been prepared. It has been prepared for quite some time, and my understanding is that the Minister of DIAND, however, delayed the approval for one year, which I think is coming due now, and we're expecting to hear from the Minister of DIAND at any time.

Could I ask the Government Leader: has he apprised the Minister of DIAND of the territorial government's position, that they are supportive of Northern Cross, as long as all environmental safeguards and permits have been issued and that there's going to be no environmental damage? Has he told the Minister of DIAND that that's the government's position?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, this member sure knows how to make me nervous. I mean when he said "I agree with the member" or "He's right," I suddenly have this cold chill run down my back, and I suddenly begin second-guessing everything that I've said.

We have indicated to the federal government that we do believe in due process. We understand what the processes were that the Northern Cross proponents went through, and we have expressed that position to the federal minister on a couple of occasions through different ministers.

Mr. Ostashek: I thank the member for that answer. I believe it's important that Yukoners and business people and investors in the Yukon know quite clearly what this government's position is.

Is the Government Leader then saying that this government is taking the position that any operation that goes through the permitting process and has cleared the permitting process will have the support of this government on the winter range of the Porcupine caribou herd?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I realize that the member has run out of supplementaries, unless he's got a punchline some place. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, this government supports due process. We understand what due process is. In advance of the development assessment process, which is being developed now, there is a sea of legislation. Any development activity has to go through a screening pursuant to that legislation. We believe in that process. We believe that it's as thorough as can exist now, prior to the development assessment process. As long as the development gets cleared through the appropriate processes in place, then this government will support that development.

Mr. Ostashek: I thank the member for that, but the member has to agree with me that due process is one thing. The territorial government has a lot of influence in the due process as to whether an application gets a yea or a nay. I believe it is important that we have that on the record. So, I just have that as a statement. I don't have a last supplementary for the Government Leader, because he has been forthcoming with his answers today for a change.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I would point out to the member that the government wants to be forthcoming with its answers, and certainly I believe that I have been, at every opportunity. As the members opposite have asked so few questions of me in this Legislature, I feel compelled to stand, once again, and just perhaps respond to members' thoughts about our budget again, or about development, or about anything else.

I won't take up too much of Question Period, Mr. Speaker, but I thank the member for that - whatever that was.

Question re: Local hire

Ms. Duncan: My question is for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. On Wednesday last week, I asked the minister why an Edmonton company had been specifically invited to bid on the provision of engineering services for the Copper Ridge subdivision in Whitehorse. Can the minister explain today, in light of this government's commitment to local hire, why the Department of Community and Transportation Services specifically invited an Alberta firm to bid on this contract?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: The member is wrong, absolutely wrong. There is absolutely no way that my department has done that.

Ms. Duncan: I understood that the department had and that is still my understanding.

I'd like to file this picture of an NDP bumper sticker from this fall's election campaign. As a matter of fact, it's taken in front of the Carpenters Union Hall, the former office of the local hire commissioner. The picture is the Yukon Party bumper sticker. It had written on it "Building Yukon's Future" - "Yukon" is crossed out and "Alberta" is written in. "Building Alberta's future". Is this the Community and Transportation Services' policy, that we are building Alberta's future?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: The member is wrong; the member is absolutely wrong. Let me explain to the member opposite - if I can use my Government Leader's words - is mixing apples and oranges and, certainly, I'm not sure which one we are taking a bite out of and I'm not sure if the member opposite knows which one we are taking a bite out of, but we certainly must make our facts certain before we bring anything to the floor of the Legislature.

I would like to say, and I will say, that on April the 16th, 18th and the 23rd, that we only advertised in the Yukon newspapers, the Whitehorse Star and the Yukon News. We did this through consultation - and also it is not a call for invitational tender, it was advertised in the Yukon; it was a public call.

What we are doing here is asking for tender criteria, which has been developed, and that tender criteria was developed with the consulting engineers of the Yukon, and certainly we do give points and extra points, in consultation with those folks again, for the numbers of Yukoners that are brought to work for Yukon content and also the knowledge of what they are doing.

So, absolutely, the member is wrong, although I must say that a firm did put in a bid for it - from Edmonton - well, the moccasin telegraph, or whatever - how they got that information, maybe somebody here shipped it down to them, or something like as such. But, certainly on this point the member is wrong.

Ms. Duncan: The request for proposal has at the bottom of it: cc'd to four firms, three of those firms are resident in the Yukon, the fourth firm - when I looked them up in the phone book - has an Alberta phone number; they are not listed in the Whitehorse phone book. That is Alberta firm and that's a request for proposal.

Will the minister confirm that the request for proposal was specifically sent to an Alberta company? Will he confirm that?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I can stick to the line that I've put out and I will stick with that line. We have advertised only within the Yukon and that is where we've advertised. It is public knowledge that on April 16th, 18th and 23rd we advertised in the two Yukon newspapers.

Question re: Collective bargaining

Mr. Cable:

I have some questions for the minister responsible for the Public Service Commission on collective bargaining. It is now five months since this House repealed the Public Sector Compensation Restraint Act and restored collective bargaining rights to public servants and teachers. We haven't heard anything for about six weeks on what's going on.

Now, the House is about to rise, so can the minister give us some kind of status report? Where do the negotiations sit with the teachers, for example? Are we back at the table? When can we expect this worrisome matter to be concluded?

Hon. Mr. Harding: The reason it probably hasn't been discussed is because the members haven't asked me in Question Period. Secondly, Public Service Commission debate in estimates has not come up in Committee of the Whole. I expect it will in the next couple of days, and I look forward to a full discussion. However, there are limits to what I can say, because we are still in the process of negotiations.

YTA, with regard to those discussions - there is a meeting today, as I understand, with the two parties at the table. With regard to the PSAC union, I understand that there are discussions scheduled for this coming week.

Mr. Cable: Looking at one of the news reports of March 27, the teachers were saying that they were disappointed with the attitude they were seeing from the new government. I don't know whether that means that the minister had an attitude problem or not, but can he tell us what that's all about? Were the negotiations with the teachers acrimonious?

Hon. Mr. Harding: I want to say that when the Yukon Party killed the collective bargaining in an unprecedented fashion, as a government with no accumulated deficit, we were very concerned. That's why we quickly moved in December to repeal their Public Sector Compensation Restraint Act and got back to the table.

However, I would not say that relations are acrimonious with the government - I can't speak for the president of YTA However, I can say that negotiations are tough. There are always difficult periods and difficult times in any negotiations. Certainly, we are not there to not negotiate in an appropriately tough manner at the table - that's what collective bargaining is all about.

I can also say that the parties have returned to the table, once the YTA canvassed at least some of their membership, and certainly we look forward to fruitful, respectful negotiations. I believe that there will be difficult moments, as there always are in good negotiations, but I think the point is that we've returned to the bargaining table, as we said we would do.

I've also checked, very diligently, our campaign commitments. I re-read a letter we had written to the YTA that was published in their YTA newsletter. We've been meeting the commitments we made to the letter and, in some cases, beyond.

Mr. Cable: Could the minister roll back the secrecy curtain just a little bit for the employers of our public servants - that's the taxpayers. Is this government intending to restore the wages lost to the rollback and, if so, what is the total cost anticipated to be?

The Government Leader is kind of laughing, so maybe the minister can tell us what he is laughing about.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, the member is asking me to go right into the table and the nuts and bolts and the numbers in the negotiations. I don't think that's a practice that's appropriate on the floor of the Legislature.

There are two parties meeting today and they're going to be negotiating and, as I said, there will be some difficult negotiations ahead, but I think the relationship is respectful. I certainly have respect for their profession and for what they do. Certainly, I hope that we can conclude the negotiations in a beneficial fashion for both parties.

With regard to the mandates, I'm not prepared to talk about that on the floor of the Legislature at this point. However, I would say that we'll be mindful of the taxpayers' interest and also mindful of the teachers, who do some very good work on behalf of the students and the parents of this territory.

So, that's the approach we're taking and, as I said, I've checked our commitments to the letter as they were published to the membership of the YTA in the pre-election period, as were the commitments of the Liberal Party and the Yukon Party. We've lived up to the letter of those commitments and, in some cases, beyond.

Question re: District governments

Mr. Jenkins: My question today is for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services.

Yukon currently has a population of 32,635 individuals. Governing that small population, there is the Government of Canada, the Government of Yukon, 14 First Nation governments and eight municipal governments. At the recent Association of Yukon Communities meeting in Watson Lake, I understand the minister raised the possibility of creating yet another level of government, districts governments.

Can the minister advise the House why he believes another layer of government, with all its inclusive bureaucracy, might be necessary?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: The member opposite is correct in his statement. I did say there could be a possibility that we would enter into negotiation if different municipalities and First Nations are willing to do so.

I certainly do have a deep respect for government and what government is supposed to be doing and how they're supposed to be following the people's direction and how they are supposed to be working forth from constitutionally entrenched documents.

I speak, Mr. Speaker, of constitutionally entrenched documents, saying that the umbrella final agreement of the Teslin Tlingit Council First Nation's agreement, the Na-Cho Ny'ak Dun First Nation agreement and the Champagne/Aishihik First Nation agreement all speak to the provision of the parties willing to sit down and negotiate and put forth negotiated programs, if you will, into a district concept. That does not mean that there will be another layer upon another layer.

Mr. Jenkins: Everyone knows that NDP administrations are fans of creating big governments, and this NDP administration is no exception. Can the minister explain to the House how his district governments would serve Yukoners better when many Yukoners are already complaining about being dragged down by too much government and too much government red tape? How will it help?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, I could go on forever about the benefits of local people making local decisions pertaining to local issues, and I should enjoy myself some day with the member opposite and when the Legislature sits I will make myself available for days and days and days so that we might be able to try and massage some of that type of thinking that was so lacking in the previous administration so that this member, when he comes back next fall, will be fruitful in his thoughts.

How is this going to help? For one thing, and I just finished saying it: local people make the local decisions.

Taking away from? Maybe somewhat - other government jurisdictions - but certainly put it into the hands of the people.

How will that help? For gosh sakes, member opposite, again I reiterate that local people making decisions on local issues is certainly an initiative that this government will do.

And are we fans of that? You betcha we're fans of that. I do believe that we'll continue to be fans of that because we are a socialist party and socialism means "for the people", working with the people, listening to the people - certainly not dictating to the people.

Any time that the member opposite would like that little massage, please let me know.

Mr. Jenkins: I'll decline the member opposite's massage today, but I would like some answers, Mr. Speaker.

Can the minister explain to the House what governments would be involved in his district governments, and what the cost would be of this additional process? How many more dollars are we going to spend on government and process?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: It certainly reminds me of my Government Leader's questions. People are starting to agree with me. Maybe not so much as agree, but it certainly scares me, because they are thinking of them in the same way.

Who would be involved? Well, certainly this government will be involved, because this government is willing, as the previous administration was not willing, to sit down. This government is willing to do that. As a matter of fact, that is, in part, why this government is sitting on this side of the House.

Who is going to be involved? Certainly we will be involved. This government, the Yukon territorial government, will be absolutely involved. Also, the people affected will be involved. If the member opposite would like to look at - I think it might be section 27 of the self-government agreement - you will be able to see the broad outline there.

As to the cost, well, again, we believe in process. We absolutely believe in due process, and due process certainly speaks that we will involve the people involved, and we will work to that end. So, those will come out. We're certainly looking forward to it being cost efficient, and certainly in the hands of the people who rightly deserve the decision-making process.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for a wonderful opportunity.

Question re: Certified nursing assistants' rehiring

Mrs. Edelman: My question is for the Minister of Health and Social Services. Mr. Speaker, my question was on the recent rehiring of the four CNAs at the Whitehorse General Hospital.

On April 22nd, the minister confirmed to this Legislature that the hospital has returned some of the CNAs to active patient care. What he neglected to mention was that the CNAs have been returned on a temporary basis until September 14th only. Why did the minister neglect to tell the House that these positions were temporary, and when will they be made permanent?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: With regard to the CNAs being returned to nursing duties, I'm expecting that when we have a report from the transition team, there will be some suggestions with regard to the staffing. Therefore, I think the hospital was probably just making sure that any decisions taken in that regard would not forestall or anticipate what kinds of decisions were being recommended by the transition team.

We are expecting an initial report in June from the transition team. As a matter of fact, today, I had a report from the ADM of Health following up a little bit on some of his meetings, and things appear to be going fairly well and he's expecting some interesting recommendations in that regard.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, there was a petition presented to the former Minister of Health and Social Services in May of 1996, and over 2,700 Yukoners signed that petition saying that they support the CNAs' efforts to keep their jobs. At that time, the NDP seemed very supportive of the CNAs' efforts to keep their jobs. Some members even put their names on the petition. Now that they are in government, that support has disappeared. What effort is the minister making to ensure that these positions become permanent?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I think the member may be somewhat alarmist in that regard.

As she just confirmed herself, four CNAs have returned to active nursing duties. I believe a lot of the concerns for the CNAs had to do with the entire question of being moved off nursing duties and into auxiliary duties. It appears to me that at least four of them have been returned to active nursing duties. That is, I believe, a reflection of some of the concerns with regard to staffing levels at the hospital. The transition team has identified some staffing issues there that they will be bringing forward, so I am a little puzzled at the member's rather alarmist approach, but let's just wait until we see what the transition team recommends with regard to staffing.

Mrs. Edelman: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm quite pleased that there is a transition team at the hospital, but a recent report on conditions at the hospital had this to say about the work of CNAs: "Their skills are now wasted as they are used to type in computer requests and stock shelves. The loss of CNA positions seriously compromises patient care."

Will the minister at least recognize the value of CNAs' work, not only at Whitehorse General, but at other government-run health facilities?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Of course we value the work of CNAs. That was one of the identified concerns, as the member has said.

I have met with the CNAs on a couple of occasions. They've given me their concerns. I'm certainly aware of the question of staffing. I've discussed this with the RNs; I've discussed this with the YMA. We now have four CNAs back on nursing duties. It would be premature for me to judge what the transition team would learn in this regard, but I would imagine that they have some staffing issues, as well.

I can assure the member opposite that we value the work of the CNAs, both at the hospital and in other institutions that we have.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will proceed to Orders of the Day.

Some Hon. Member: Point of order.

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Point of order

Speaker: Point of order has been called.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I apologize, but I have a legislative return for tabling that came to me half way through the session.

Is that a point of order?

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No? Pardon me. I'm just...

Speaker: Order please. Is there unanimous consent for the tabling of the document?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Speaker: Unanimous consent has been granted.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: I'd like to table that return at this point in time.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Mr. Harding: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Government House Leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. Is it the members' wish to take a brief recess?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Chair: Fifteen minutes.

Recess

Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order.

We will now go to the Department of Justice. Is there any general debate?

Bill No. 4 - First Appropriation Act, 1997-98 - continued

Department of Justice

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I am pleased to present the Justice department's main estimates for the 1997-98 fiscal year. Our O&M budget for 1997-98 will total $29,627,000, representing an increase of $513,000, or close to two percent from our 1996-97 forecast.

The increase in this year's budget is a product of contractually driven merit increases for departmental personnel, other forced-growth costs and a careful allocation of new resources to areas within the department that are of priority concern to this government. Savings in other areas have, in part, offset the new expenditures.

I would like to make special mention of our decision to enhance the resources of the victim services family violence prevention unit. The budget of this unit has been increased by $214,000 for additional personnel to help with increased workloads and to maintain and expand services to communities outside of Whitehorse.

Of the total amount, close to $87,000 will be spent on victim services. This will allow the part-time, police-affiliated victim services coordinators in Watson Lake and Dawson City to be made permanent and to have their hours of service increased. It will also allow for the creation of a .5 full-time equivalency position that will be an outreach position to other communities that do not currently have a resident victim services coordinator.

Family violence prevention will receive an increase of over $127,000, or the equivalent of two FTEs. This money will allow the unit to make the sex offender risk management coordinator a permanent position. This position is a critical component of the government's Keeping Kids Safe program.

We are also creating a half-time sex offender outreach position to facilitate the coordination of risk management teams in the communities, also part of Keeping Kids Safe.

Finally, the remaining funding will be used to create a .5 FTE family violence prevention outreach position to offer family violence programming in the communities.

The enhancement of the budget in these areas reflects the increased public demand over the last several years for services for victims and family violence prevention. As people take the step to come forward to report and deal with their victimization, it is essential that we have the capacity to offer the services they need once they do so. We must come up with the resources and we're doing that with this budget.

Another highlight of this budget is the creation of the workers' advocate position within the Justice department. This represents the fulfillment of a commitment by this government to establish a position dedicated to representing injured workers in their dealings with the Workers' Compensation Health and Safety Board. The position has been situated in Justice to reflect the independence of the workers' advocate. The budget for the office of the workers' advocate is $80,000, fully recoverable from the Workers' Compensation Health and Safety Board.

A third initiative that warrants particular mention is the addition to the budget of money to implement the federal government's child support guidelines. These guidelines set national standards for child support orders made under the federal Divorce Act. A total of $131,500 has been allocated for initiatives related to the implementation of the guidelines.

A child support information office phone line has been set up to provide general information.

A drop-in service provided by a child support guidelines information officer is available two afternoons a week to answer specific questions to help parents who want to change their child support orders and to provide referrals to other sources of legal information.

A one-hour free mediation information referral is also being made available. Special efforts will be made to ensure information is accessible to parents outside of Whitehorse. The budget for this initiative is 100-percent recoverable from the federal government.

As I stated at the outset, the 1997-98 budget will increase by close to two percent from our 1996-97 forecast.

Of the total budget of $29,627,000, 44 percent, or $13,312,000, will be spent on salaries and related costs. Another 34 percent, or $10,158,000, represents the cost of police services for the Yukon.

Of the remaining $6,157,000, $2,116,000 represents transfer payments to groups or individuals charged with program delivery on behalf of the department. The remaining funds of $4,041,000 are used for program costs.

The breakdown for each branch is as follows. Management services - this branch combines such functions as the deputy minister's office, finance and administration, information systems, human resources and policy into one unit - will have a budget this year of $1,376,000, which represents a small increase of $60,000. The change is primarily the result of the creation of the workers' advocate position.

Court services, which operates the Yukon court system, will have a budget of $3,474,000. Court services also oversees the maintenance enforcement program, the new child support guidelines information office and the law library. The budgeted amount is up by $97,000. The change is due to the child support guidelines costs I have already mentioned, and fees for a deputy judge to cover for a territorial court judge who has taken sabbatical leave.

Legal services provides a full range of legal services to the government, including prosecuting territorial offenses, drafting legislation, litigating civil matters and providing legal advice. The branch also administers the legal aid and native courtworker program. This branch has been budgeted at $2,766,000. The increase of $42,000 results mainly from merit increases for personnel and the inclusion of a land claims solicitor, which is 50-percent funded by the Land Claims Secretariat.

These additional costs are offset by the reduction of the litigation costs and judgments budget. This budget has been used in the past to help client departments with some of the costs associated with legal cases, such as disbursements, witness fees, judgments and court-ordered costs. These costs will now be borne fully by client departments. The $10,000 remaining in this budget will be used for a variety of very minor costs associated with trials.

Consumer and commercial services contains a number of units dedicated to regulating the marketplace. These include corporate affairs, consumer services, labour services and the land titles office. It also houses the coroner's office, the public administrator and the Yukon Utilities Board.

The branch budget for 1997-98 will be $2,574,000, which is a decrease of $67,000. The main reason for the decrease is the reduction of auxiliary support in the program director's area and an anticipated reduction in hearing costs in consumer services. These savings are partly offset by some increases, primarily in corporate affairs, which is adding a position to help with the 400-percent increase in volume over the past five years.

The community and correctional services branch provides custody and probation services for adult offenders which offer support and integration with the community. As part of this service, the branch operates the Teslin and Whitehorse correctional facilities. The branch also includes victim services and the family violence prevention unit and the territorial firearms office. The branch will be budgeted at $8,821,000.

The increase to this branch is attributable to the increased budget for the victim services and family violence prevention unit that I've already outlined, and the addition of needed staff at the Whitehorse Correctional Centre. The new positions at WCC account for $236,000 of the increase for that institution. A detailed breakdown of these positions was provided to both Opposition parties as a result of the department's technical budget briefing.

Community development and policing is responsible for managing the policing services contract with the RCMP, which comprises 98 percent of the $10,157,000 budget for the branch. The branch director is also responsible for negotiating community justice contracts and for overseeing crime prevention. The branch budget has decreased by $83,000 due to savings realized under the police services contract, through streamlining and administrative efficiencies.

Finally, the department funds the independent Human Rights Commission. The budget here is $252,000. This is a reduction to historically normal levels after a one-time increase to the budget in 1996-97 to cover legal costs associated with the Madeline Gould case.

Mr. Chair, the objective of the Department of Justice includes a commitment to define and protect legal rights and responsibilities of all persons in the Yukon. All persons, of course, includes the disadvantaged, the vulnerable, and those not traditionally well-represented in the justice system. This budget is a small step toward enhancing the protection of all people by enhancing victim services and family violence programming to protect women and children from violence, by putting in place an advocate for injured workers and by implementing child support guidelines, which will address the needs of the most important but sometimes forgotten figures in marital breakdown - the children.

These initiatives, combined with the legislative program we're planning for the fall, are a significant contribution toward the achievement of our goals. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Phillips: I thank the minister for her comments.

I don't recall hearing any mention of the capital in the opening comments. It was primarily the O&M that the minister talked about, and I know other ministers have been including them in their opening statements of both. So, I hope the minister plans to raise the capital, as well.

Mr. Chair, I have a few questions in general debate. First of all, I'd like to start out with more of an up-to-date status on Bill C-68. The government's position, of course, is to join with the provinces on that, and I just wonder if the minister has anything more to add to what has happened with respect to C-68.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't have anything more to report than what I told the member earlier, which is that the arguments are scheduled to be heard some time during September of 1997 for that challenge, and we haven't heard of any change in the dates.

Mr. Phillips: It's too bad that we couldn't have gotten an earlier court date - like the end of May or something would have been a nice date to bring this particular subject back up into the public forum again, and talk about it a little more.

I'm sure some of us would agree that that timing would be beneficial and others would agree that they never want to see Bill C-68 raise its ugly face again. So, we'll look forward to that.

The minister talked about judges' sabbaticals, and I raised an issue with the minister last year, in December, with respect to sabbaticals, and I believe I got a document from the minister pointing out what other jurisdictions do.

The current process that we have in place with sabbaticals is a very expensive one, and I just wonder if the minister has given some thought to future changes with respect to that. I think right now we give a judge - after they work five years, I believe - then they get half a year's salary for the year they take off, and that's a pretty expensive process. I just wonder if the minister has given that some thought, and what the minister plans on doing about it.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I did, after the last budget debate, send copies of the member's question to the judiciary, who provided their thoughts on the value of the sabbatical program. The practice is not under review at present by government. Indeed, the issues of judicial independence, benefits and remuneration are before the Supreme Court of Canada at the moment, and any consideration of such things as sabbaticals ought to wait until we have the benefit of the court's advice.

I can certainly provide the member opposite with information about that case when it is heard, since I know that it was underway when the member opposite was in this chair.

Mr. Phillips: Well, maybe the minister could give us an idea when they think it might be heard, first of all, but secondly, the minister knows how I feel about it. I wanted to change the sabbaticals so it would make a little more sense and cost the taxpayer a little less money.

So, I would just like to know from the minister: what is her government's position on it? Maybe the minister could tell us that.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, I can tell the member, as I just said, that the practice is not under review at present by the government. The Supreme Court decision is expected early this spring, which was the most recent date I heard. Well, it's well into spring now, so it's believed that their decision will come down soon.

Mr. Phillips: Well, I'm a little disappointed in the minister not having a position on it and just waiting for the Supreme Court. That's an easy out, I guess, letting somebody else do your job for you, but I think the Yukon taxpayers are concerned about the wise expenditure of public funds and I think that that is an area that should be reviewed, Supreme Court or no Supreme Court, and I would hope that a minister would take the same position on it.

Mr. Chair, the individual who was in charge of the JPs - that was an issue that came up a while ago and I believe there was an extension granted. What position is the government taking with respect to chief of the JPs?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The pilot program for the senior JP, as the member has said, was a two-year pilot program. Any continuation of the program was to be a result of an agreement between the court and the government. I have had some discussions with the judiciary on the subject of the position, but we do not, as yet, have agreement about continuing the position on a full-time basis.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, we took a pretty strong stand on what the evaluation process should involve with respect to the senior JP. What position is the new government taking with respect to the evaluation? Who should do it? What should the criteria be? Who should be involved, and that kind of thing?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: As I read the ministerial order that created the pilot project, it indicates that any continuation of it would only occur if there was mutual agreement on the part of the government and the judiciary. As the member opposite himself has said, we do have a responsibility to be careful with the expenditures of public funds. We have not agreed or disagreed on the permanent nature of an appointment.

Mr. Phillips: Well, how long is it going to go on? I mean that's fine for the minister to say that there has to be mutual agreement. It's like blaming the Supreme Court for the previous problem it got.

I'm kind of asking this minister: when does the minister hope to resolve this problem and either confirm the senior JP position or look at some other option? What is the minister planning to do with it?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I can tell the member that I'm hoping that that issue can be resolved this month. I would say to the member opposite that I'm not looking to "blame the Supreme Court". What I am looking for is having the benefit of the decision of the Supreme Court, when three or four other Canadian jurisdictions have these very matters being considered by the Supreme Court of Canada. I think that the judgment should be helpful and instructive to the Yukon as to other jurisdictions.

Mr. Phillips: As soon as we reach a position or decision on the senior JP position, I wonder if the minister could let me know.

Mr. Chair, there have been some incidents with respect to circle sentencing where, in my view, the victims have not been totally included, and the minister talked here today about a focus, in this budget, to be more on victims and has actually talked about an act to protect the rights of victims somewhere down the road. So, I want to ask the minister: there was a fairly prominent case here about a year ago or a couple of years ago now, where, in the case of the circle sentencing, the four victims chose not to participate - for very valid reasons as the minister knows - and the judiciary decided to continue along with the circle sentencing despite the fact that the whole premise of circle sentencing is that the victims participate.

I wonder what the views of the minister are on that, and if the minister supports circle sentencing continuing when the victims are adamant that they not be involved, primarily in cases such as this, which was a little more serious than what circle sentencing usually deals with. This was, I believe, a sexual harassment case and the victims were concerned about being victimized twice by having to reappear in this format. I was somewhat dismayed when the judiciary decided to proceed with that format. I would just like to know what the views are of the minister on this.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The member's comments are certainly ones that I have heard often - that participants feel that they're being victimized a second time - and that isn't necessarily restricted simply to circle sentencing or to community justice. We have to strive for a justice system that is respectful of everyone involved in the process.

The community justice initiatives, such as circle sentencing, are ones that many members of the public are excited about and want to have a chance to participate in. We certainly would like to see a victims' rights statement in legislation to do with victim services, such as the crime prevention and victim services trust act that we're planning to introduce in the fall session.

Mr. Phillips: Just protecting the rights of victims, in my view, is maybe not good enough. I think there is a problem with respect to the attitude of some of the judiciary in this area.

I wrote a letter, as the Minister of Justice, to the Chief judge and expressed concerns that I had heard from many women who were very upset about the process that took place in this particular case and in others, and I can tell the minister, and I'm sure the minister heard it as well, there was a lot of anger from women about these other women being revictimized.

I got a reply from the Chief Judge, telling me to mind my own business, that this is the independence of the judiciary, and I was to not interfere. In fact, in the letter I didn't specify that particular case. I talked about cases in general where women feel victimized.

Maybe there should be a little more sensitivity from the judges with respect to the victims in these cases and especially with respect to women in sexual assault cases.

I can tell the minister that I was concerned when I wrote the letter. I was appalled and shocked at the reply when the judge told me to butt out, because it convinced me more than ever that the people involved in this judiciary who wrote me that letter need to become a little more sensitive to the plight of victims and, in particular, women who are concerned about this issue.

What I'd like to ask the minister is if she would pursue this with our local judiciary and offer them a program or initiative that I'm sure is available throughout North America and Canada to make them more sensitive to the concerns of these victims - women who maybe are sexually assaulted, women who have to go through the court system as victims and sometimes as witnesses. I know there are programs out there to help people become more sensitive to that.

All I was asking the judges was to - they don't even have to tell me or announce publicly that they are doing it. I just think there's a need for it, and I think the reply that I received from the Chief Judge pointed out that there is a need now for it. To tell me that I had no business even raising the issue is outrageous.

I was extremely upset with the attitude of the Chief Judge, and if we had formed the government and I still had the portfolio of Justice, we would have had to deal with the issue.

So, I'd like to know what this minister will do - I'm sure she's read the correspondence; I'm sure she's had an opportunity to look at the letter I wrote and the letter that the Chief Judge wrote me back - with respect to those concerns?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, first I would like to respond to the member's point related to the independence of the judiciary. It is very important that we all acknowledge that the independence of the judiciary is an important principle. There must be no political interference with the outcomes of individual cases. I know the member opposite supports that and I support that, so I just want to be clear on that point.

With regard to the member's comments about the sensitivity of judges, when I was in New Brunswick at the Justice ministers conference, I had a discussion with colleagues and with the federal minister, Allan Rock, about the fact that the judiciary, like many elements of our power structure in society, is not representative of society as a whole. There are very limited numbers of women, very few First Nations or visible minority people on the bench. That is a weakness, I think, to have a uniformly male bench.

Nonetheless, in response to the member's questions about promoting educational programs, the Canadian Judicial Council, in its annual reports, talks about some of the programs that are available to Canadian judges to deal with sexism, racism and other concerns. I've had a discussion with the Chief Judge here, indicating that he is in full support of those kinds of educational programs. I think it's an important thing to do. It's also important that the judiciary be more representative of society.

Mr. Phillips: I want to make it clear, as well. I think if the minister can take the time to read the letter that I wrote to the Chief Judge, the minister will see that I clearly did not talk about a case, but I talked generally about victims and women being revictimized. The last thing I am ever going to suggest is that a Justice minister should interfere in the outcome of any cases. All I am suggesting is that the judges should be more sensitive to the concerns of the victims.

I would comment, too, that I couldn't agree more with the minister that there should be more women and more First Nations people in the judiciary - more representative of society. But, having said that, one shouldn't have to be a woman or a First Nations person to be sensitive to those concerns.

What I was upset about with the letter I received from the judge is that it was hiding behind the curtain of judicial independence. I think that's really unacceptable, and I'm glad the minister has had discussions with our Chief Judge in the territory. What I would like to hear from the minister is that our Chief Judge, he himself, is going to take advantage of some of these programs and is going to ask his colleagues, the other judges in the territory, to take advantage of these programs because, by God, they need it, and certainly the Chief Judge needs it, by the tone of his letter, ignoring the whole premise of the letter.

So, I'd like to ask the minister if she would ask the Chief Judge to put his money where his mouth is, to really do what he says is important and that he'll take some of these programs and become more aware of the plight of the victims with respect to crime.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, I can certainly ensure that - although I expect from the member's correspondence that he refers to that the Chief Judge is already aware of the views of the critic. We do have some common interests in ensuring that all members of society are treated respectfully when they're in the courtrooms in the Yukon.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, that's very diplomatic, but the bottom line is that I'm not afraid to tell the judge he's got some work to do in that area. I told the judge that he had some work to do in my letter, by inferring in my letter that I have some concerns about this area, and I was raising them on behalf of many, many, many Yukon women who were absolutely outraged at the attitude.

As I said, when I received the reply, I couldn't believe the reply. He missed the mark. Maybe if the judge wants to take some time to read Hansard, he should have another look at the letter, because the intent wasn't to change the outcome of any case; the intent was just to make the judge more sensitive to the issues that surround sexual assault and the victims who are continually revictimized in our court system today. And no one can say that doesn't happen. It happens in many cases.

I'd like to move away from that for a minute into a couple of other areas: the follow-up on sentences of individuals. I'll tell the minister a little story, and then I'll ask a question.

This was a personal issue, but I think it becomes much broader than that when you start to look at what's happening. As the minister knows, when I was the Minister of Justice a couple of years ago, I had my house broken into. Two of the individuals who broke into my house were young offenders. Two of them were adult offenders. So I'm asking this of the minister responsible for adult offenders.

There were problems with the court case. As the Justice minister, I was somewhat hampered by what I could say and what I could do, but I have to tell the minister what happened. All four individuals initially pled guilty. One has since changed his plea, moved to another jurisdiction, and everything's up in the air now. No one knows what's going on. Three of them were sentenced.

In the case of the first one, a sentence was rendered with restitution to be made in some cases. When the second case came forward, I'd heard one of them had been sentenced in June, but I only heard, as the victim, after I asked out of curiosity, about a month after, what was going on. No one informed me anything was happening. When I asked about it prior to the second trial, I was advised of what happened in the first of one of the other individuals.

I mistakenly assumed that, when the second individual came up to trial, the results of the first trial would be explained to the judge by the Crown. The results of the trial of the second individual were completely different from the first one. The judge's decision in the first one - or anything pertaining to the first one - was left out. The Crown didn't take anything in there to say that there'd been anybody else involved, and that someone else had been sentenced. So the restitution was way different than the other one. In fact, one had to pay me $175, and this was a pretty heavy-duty sentence, because they had to pay me the $175 on or before July of 1998. That's two years away.

That's ridiculous, but that's the sentence - a little disturbing. The second one had to pay $750. There didn't seem to be any correlation between them. They were all involved in the same crime. One had to pay a certain amount of restitution. The other had to pay another. It seems to me that somebody dropped the ball.

Since then, I've been following this matter, and until about two weeks ago I had heard nothing about it until I made some inquiries and asked about what was going on. And I just found out this morning that one fellow has breached his probation - he didn't make restitution in March when he was supposed to make it. He evidently went to court a week or two ago, but I wouldn't have found that out if I hadn't asked recently about it again.

So, I guess the concern I have is not necessarily about what's happening in my case. I can deal with that as a victim, but I've had the opportunity to discuss this with a lot of other people and it appears that there are an awful lot of victims out there who are not being kept abreast of what's going on in their cases, and that commitments are not made by the individuals who are charged, and I'm a little concerned about the follow-up.

Victims that I've talked to that are involved in this thing throw their arms in the air in frustration. They never hear any more about it, and I'm convinced in my mind that if I, as a victim, never hear any more about it, and the person who violated my partner's and my premises doesn't have to do anything more, then they're laughing at the system.

So, I wonder if the minister can maybe bring back to the House, or get me some information by way of a legislative return or letter, the number of outstanding violations in the last two or three years, and let me know whether or not the victims have been paid restitution one way or another - what's happening.

I know it's going to put somebody to a lot of work, but if I hadn't asked the questions here three weeks ago in my own particular case and run into a few other victims who have just thought that everybody forgot about them, nothing would have been done. And I've got to believe that the criminals are laughing at the system if no one is doing anything about it.

I know the probation people are overworked and have a lot of cases on their hands, but there's not much point in sentencing somebody to a penalty of one kind or another and then never actually having it followed through to the end.

So, maybe the minister can get back to me on how many are actually followed through to the end, whether we make sure restitution is made.

Mr. Chair, the other issue that I wanted to talk about with respect to victims is that the minister announced that there is a little more money in this budget for victims.

When I initially inquired about writing a victim impact statement in my case, I was told that victim impact statements are used more in violent cases or more serious cases. I think that's again partly due to workload and the number of individuals involved, and I can understand that, but I just want to know from the minister if that's going to change with the new money that's put in the program. Will they now be contacting people in my riding who have had their homes broken into and things stolen? The minister's going to bring in a victim bill of rights, so I would expect there would have to be some more resources put into the area to allow staff in the Department of Justice to contact the victims and make sure there's a victim impact statement and that kind of thing.

Is that what'll happen when the minister brings forward a victim bill of rights or a victim rights statement.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: First, I would just like to clarify the member's request for additional information. I understand that what he's looking for is the number of probation orders that have been breached after convictions and probation orders have been sentenced, or is he looking specifically for information related to the payment of compensation on the part of offenders to victims and whether those have been followed up on.

Mr. Phillips: I'm curious about both. They go hand in hand. If someone is given a sentence, a probationary period, as well as making restitution, do we, in all cases, deal with the breach of probation, and how do we deal with it? I know we appear in court again in some cases. And with respect to restitution, how well do we follow that up? Is there a pretty stringent process by which we follow it up to make sure that the individuals do not get away with - say, if somebody beat somebody up and broke a windshield in their car or wrecked their camera or did something and the judge ruled that they have to make restitution in the amount of the damages, I just want to know whether these have been followed up and, if they're not followed up, what happens? How many are outstanding, and what are we doing to the ones that are outstanding?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'll certainly see what information is available to provide for the member. As he knows, the Crown attorney's function is under the federal jurisdiction still on Criminal Code matters. Also, individual judgments on cases where there is a conviction depend on a number of factors. A pre-sentence report is done on the offender, and this would look at previous convictions. So, where there might seem to be a strong similarity in a crime that has been committed, there may be differences related to the offender that would result in a different sentence.

The member's concerns about not being kept abreast of the situation as a victim who wanted to know what was happening when an offender went to court is something that I have heard before from other people. There is, in the federal system, a way of matching up a victim with an offender so that if there's a high-risk offender about to be released, the victim would be notified.

We're working in the Yukon on having a community notification protocol in place, in cases where violent offenders are about to be released.

So I'll endeavour to get back to the member with what information I can.

Mr. Phillips: While we're on the Crown devolution, it sounds to me like we're kind of hovering and haven't gone that far with it, other than that the minister has written letters to local organizations asking for their input. Has the minister received replies?

I received this letter and it has a list on here. It isn't dated, so I'm not sure whether it has gone out already and if the minister has received replies on it all, or where it's at. So, maybe the minister can bring back an update on that. And maybe she can also, at the same time, if the minister could, tell us what position the Government of the Northwest Territories is taking with respect to devolution.

I know that we were sort of hand-in-hand before trying to get devolution to proceed and I just wonder if the NWT government is preoccupied with other things, or are they kind of beating down the door the way we are with Mr. Rock and finding that Rock is a hard one to crack?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The member has touched on some of the factors that he knows very well are affecting the devolution of the Crown attorney function at the present time. There is a federal election campaign underway and I don't expect to see much happening prior to the results of the June 2nd federal election.

Nonetheless, I can tell the member that letters were sent out to groups after the federal Justice ministers conference, when I spoke with Minister Rock, and he indicated that they were willing to participate with us and to work toward devolution. Letters then have gone out seeking opinions from local groups. Some responses have been received and, generally, they were favourable.

Mr. Phillips: Well, could the minister keep us abreast of where we're going with that?

I will move on for a minute to the maintenance enforcement program. The member talked about that. I believe in the report we got from the minister there has only been one administrative sanction applied to one file. The minister says that it's due to the fact that the previous government set very restrictive criteria for application of the sanctions. The minister has changed that. I wonder if there's a chance of getting a copy of the amended criteria for doing that, and can the minister tell us how many files they're acting on now with the amended criteria? Does it have to pass an order-in-council or is it just regulation? How are we changing it?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: First of all, I intended to tell the member, in response to his previous question, that the Northwest Territories is preoccupied with Nunavut, and they will have their own director of prosecution systems as part and parcel of negotiating the separation and the creation of the new Nunavut territory.

The maintenance enforcement program and the administrative sanctions changes - the member wanted further details on that. The department has recently developed revised criteria for the implementation of the administrative sanctions that would apply to files with any arrears. This is being done in other provinces. Previously, the criteria was that before an administrative sanction could be imposed, the delinquent parent had to have made no payments. We are applying the administrative sanctions to people who are in default on their payments, so that if they're behind, I believe, for 60 days - and I can certainly bring back a written answer for the member on exactly what the new criteria are - an administrative sanction will be taken not as a last resort, but once the payments have been in default.

Mr. Phillips: Well, I can certainly support those kinds of changes that make sure people pay.

The minister mentioned the Crown devolution. It seems that they are proceeding with Nunavut. Maybe we should hint to Allan Rock that we might divide the territory in two and maybe he'll sit down with us and discuss the devolution of the Crown attorney's office. It might get through to him that way.

Well, Mr. Chair, I will look forward to seeing, I guess, six months or eight months from now, whether or not the minister has improved the recovery rate in this area. Being involved in the government that brought in the administrative sanctions, I know that it does work, but I wish the minister well in recovering that because it's important that once a decision is made on who pays, people should try and meet their commitments, primarily for the benefit of the kids, because that's what the decisions are based on in the first place.

Mr. Chair, I was looking at some of the civil litigation actions that we had and what I don't have on this list is dates. So, rather than put the minister through a whole pile of work, if they could just give me dates of any actions on this list since last September, the last seven or eight months. I'm looking primarily for new litigation, just to see if there is anything new that's cropped up here. So, if the minister could do that, that would be good.

I may have to ask this question in the Public Service Commission debate regarding the Randhawa case and the fact that it wasn't totally off the books, I believe. There were still some discussions taking place. I just wonder if the minister has any information with respect to where that is.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Justice is continuing to follow the Public Service Commission's instructions to work hard toward negotiating with Mr. Randhawa for a settlement on the remaining issues. Settlement has been reached on a number of the issues and there are still some items left to be negotiated. I think I would defer to the minister responsible for the Public Service Commission on that. I have a partial note and PSC is the responsible department.

Mr. Phillips: I'd be more than happy to take it up with the minister responsible for the Public Service Commission, but I have to remind the minister that that minister was the critic, I believe, in the last government, of the Public Service Commission, and raised the issue of Randhawa and questioned me several times on how long it was taking. So, I know that that minister will use all of her influence on her colleague to make sure that this matter is dealt with - expeditiously, I think is the word that was used in the past by others in the House. So, I would hope that the minister would proceed with that.

Another case that I understand had gone to appeal is the Smith versus YTG and that other guy.

Can the minister tell me where that is? Is it still under appeal? When do they expect it to be heard?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The case remains before the courts, and so the matter really shouldn't be discussed here in the Legislature, since it is yet before the courts in a matter of appeal.

Mr. Phillips: That was a nice try, but it's not going to work. I asked the minister when the appeal will be heard. I'm not asking the minister whether we think we'll win, think we'll lose, or whether we're going to be involved in it or what we're going to say. I just want to know when we expect that appeal to be heard.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't have a date that the appeal is going to be heard. If the officials that are listening do have a date for the appeal, then I expect I'll have a note shortly and I can let the member know when I have that date available.

Mr. Phillips: I do want to take the time, as well, to thank the staff of the Department of Justice. We went over there, I guess it was two or three weeks ago now. It was rather intimidating. There was a large room with literally hundreds of people around the table.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Phillips: Well, probably 20 or 24 people around the table. They gave a very good presentation on the budget and answered some of our technical questions, and I appreciate the notes we've received from the department since then, advising us of the various answers to the questions we asked.

Mr. Chair, the Yukon Utilities Board is, of course, meeting today. The process by which the Utilities Board deals with applications has been a matter of discussion in the public, as well as in this House. In fact, as recently as a few weeks ago in this House, the energy commissioner complained about the process that's in place today.

So, I'd like to ask the minister if her government anticipates changing that process in any way.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I hope the member's going to be satisfied with the answer. In many ways, Cabinet and the Justice minister are doing the same thing that the previous government came up with, which is to recruit members to the Yukon Utilities Board who are knowledgeable of the regulatory process, electrical issues and, where feasible, consensus-building approaches.

In the review of the rules governing the Yukon Utilities Board and the proposed appointment guidelines, the department, together with the Utilities Board, came up with a recommendation on what background and experience and knowledge and interest and professional education were desirable in both members of the board and the chair of the board.

I am writing, as minister, to intervener groups, to First Nations and interested parties to send them copies of the guidelines for appointment and qualifications desirable in a member and looking for nominations to the Yukon Utilities Board to follow up on responses.

Mr. Phillips: I thank the minister for the answer. I support the process by which the minister is asking interveners those questions. I was involved in the government that set up the process.

What I'm asking the minister is, they now have a new Cabinet commissioner on energy, and that Cabinet commissioner, a member of her government, has stated that it's not a great process. So I'm asking the minister, what is the minister planning to change about the process? She must be getting input from the energy commissioner, and are there any contemplated changes with the process? Are they going to go back to the intervener status we had before where we paid interveners a lot of money? Well, are we going to go back to anything that we had before? Obviously, the energy commissioner felt that that was a better way, so I just want to know from the minister what we are planning to change with respect to that process?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: As the member knows, the review he did last year surveyed the kinds of guidelines that are used in other jurisdictions and, in the Yukon, we've adopted guidelines similar to those that are used in other jurisdictions. At the present time, as Justice minister, I am participating in exactly that process in sending out letters to intervener groups. Because of the technical nature of the work, we seek people with professional expertise asking for nominations of that sort.

As far as the workplan of the Energy Corporation and all of the policy considerations that they're going to be looking at, that is not something that will have an effect on the process before us today.

Mr. Phillips: The minister also mentioned in her opening remarks about a workers' advocate, and maybe the minister can tell us where the staffing is at the present time for the workers' advocate and when we expect that particular position to be filled.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: That position is being filled by running a competition, and there is nothing to report today related to that particular competition. I can tell the member that Justice and the Public Service Commission are both involved, and that the competition has closed, and there have been interviews; however, there has not been a final decision made. So, we anticipate there could be an announcement soon, but not today.

Mr. Phillips: Can the minister be a little more definitive? I mean, are we talking about in the next week or two weeks? Does the minister want a decision by the end of May?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The present competition has not been concluded. I do hope that before the month is out we will have something definite to announce.

I have some information here related to the Smith v. Alwarid case. The date is up to the appellant. The lawyer for the appellant has delayed seeking the appeal until the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled in a similar case, called "Sylvester," from British Columbia. Setting the date is not up to the defendants in this case.

As well, I'd like to provide some information to the member related to tracking for restitution. This is in response to the questions that he was raising about break and enter at his home and about probation orders. Within two weeks of the expiry of a probation order with outstanding restitution, court registry notifies adult probation and the breach process is then entered into. Court dates are then usually four to six weeks after notification from court registry. Further, while an offender is on probation, the probation officer will encourage the offender to pay the outstanding restitution. The probation officer cannot lay breach charges until after the expiry of the condition of restitution on the probation order.

The department has contacted Mr. Phillips by phone and advised him of the status of the two adults charged and contemplates having ongoing contact with the member opposite, at his request, to keep him updated.

Mr. Phillips: Yes, that's fine, but that was as a result of me making a call and inquiring. My question was this: is it common practice to phone all of the victims as these orders are breached and let them know that something is still happening with the case, or do we just proceed on our own and try and solve the problem and, if restitution is made, we make it later?

That was the concern I had. If I hadn't stepped in, in my particular case, would there have been notification to me - I have talked to others that have heard nothing, so I just don't know if it's a common practice or not.

The ARC and the community notification agreement that the minister talked briefly about here today - have we not got a formal agreement with Probation Canada now with respect to the ARC? I know we had kind of an informal agreement that they would notify us when individuals of a dangerous nature arrived, and I know the minister talked about setting up a committee of people that might be involved in the future in reviewing this kind of thing. Where are we with that, because it's not clear from the minister's statements today whether or not we have gone much further.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: There are a couple of answers that I have for the member. There is a community notification protocol that has been developed for high-risk offenders, and those negotiations are between the Yukon government, the RCMP, Correctional Services Canada and the federal Crown attorney's office.

The ARC, the Salvation Army Adult Residential Centre, is approached when an offender may be released and is asked whether that offender could be placed at the Salvation Army Adult Residential Centre.

The federal government does have in place, notification practices that provide for a victim to be notified if the system has linked a particular victim with a particular offender.

In the recent case, and the controversy surrounding it, that was new legislation. The victim had not registered and become identified with the offender, because that particular piece of federal legislation was not in effect at the time of the crime. That has now been changed so that the victim is being notified.

Mr. Phillips: Is the minister comfortable that, say we're still negotiating an agreement with Probations Canada when someone is in our area that may be a dangerous offender - the notification agreement; we're still negotiating that with the federal government - in

the meantime, they haven't sent us any really shady characters and not told us about it? My information from an individual is that there are some considerably dangerous individuals who are on release who have come to the territory, and that we haven't been notified about it. I wonder if the minister feels comfortable in her mind or, if the minister is not aware of it, if the minister would at least ask the federal officials about, in the last six or seven months, who they have sent here and, if there is somebody of that nature, why we haven't been notified, or is the minister assured that we are notified of anyone that is of a dangerous nature?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: We do work closely with the RCMP and Correctional Services Canada. I believe that we are notified when there are any dangerous offenders being released. I believe that we are aware of it in advance, but I will certainly confirm that for the member.

Mr. Phillips: I would urge the minister and the Department of Justice to do a real thorough check of this, because I have been told that there are some individuals that are arriving here that are quite questionable and I haven't seen any notification anywhere of these individuals being around.

Mr. Chair, I wanted to slip back for a minute to the Utilities Board. The question I have is more about administration.

Last August or September, we were in the process of working out a contribution agreement for their office and their staff. Has that been done? Are they in offices? Where are their offices situated, and that kind of thing?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: We have approved that change, so the administrative responsibilities will be falling under the purview of the Yukon Utilities Board.

Mr. Phillips: Have they set up independent offices now? Where are they situated?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The Yukon Utilities Board has always had separate offices in the Horwood Mall. I believe that is still their location.

Mr. Phillips: Police commission. In the election, the minister talked about a police commission and, subsequently, has watered down what the minister felt the police commission could do. I just wonder where we are with that. That, I think, is the group of individuals that the minister wanted to set up - I think, a board - to review the actions of the RCMP. Where are we with that?

I think the minister has moved more toward the direction we were heading, with community policing, working with the RCMP and a directional statement to the RCMP. Maybe the minister can tell us where we are with that.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, this is one of those questions that seems to come around in every budget debate, where I stand up and repeat what it was that we said during the campaign and what our platform is and then proceed to tell the member how we're proceeding on it.

A Better Way platform and program indicated that, as a government, we would start a public process to explore options such as a Yukon police commission, where Yukon people could be involved in issues about policing and justice priorities and work with police and justice officials to make the system more open and accountable to the public.

Just this morning, I was in Carcross at a community policing workshop with outgoing members of the RCMP, a new officer who is being stationed in Carcross and several members of the community, including students from the school, the school principal, people from the First Nation and people from the communities of Tagish and Carcross. So, I think that we have seen continual work in Yukon communities where the public are becoming involved in policing and justice priorities.

The CAPRA model of community policing is one where we've also seen a group of 14 volunteers in the City of Whitehorse working with the police on finding ways of dealing with the problems of bush parties, vandalism and young offenders.

We're also looking at auxiliary policing. The program is already in place, and we'll be looking at giving this very valuable program a legislative base. We intend to continue making sure that Yukoners have an opportunity to be involved in setting policing and justice priorities.

We will be working with the public on that and making it possible for them to talk to us about what they think should be part of a broader police-based legislation and policing initiatives.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, that sort of brings me to the next topic, and I have to tell the minister that I am very pleased to see that, with respect to the Talking About Crime and Creating Safer Communities initiatives that were started by our government and the recommendations that came out of that with respect to community policing involving the community are, I think, in my view, good recommendations for the most part. They were developed by the people out there, for the most part, and I am glad to see that this government is following the initiatives that were set out by our government and implementing many of the programs that we had already started work on.

I think that, so many times when one government comes in and another government goes out, for political expediency we throw out the baby with the bath water, but this is a case where the minister has actually seen merit in much of the work that was done and is following through with it.

So, I have a couple of questions in that area and that probably wraps up my general debate, but I do have some questions with respect to Talking About Crime.

Administrative sanctions for youth - the last update we have is March 21st. One of the areas that we talked about is the right to sue parents. Health and Social Services ingested and reviewed the proposed initiative, but they said there's no further action planned at this time. Is the minister still considering that or looking into it any further with respect to that initiative?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: No, the answer that the Health minister gave that no further action is planned at this time is also the answer that I would give.

I do have some information going back to a previous question the member asked about the community notification protocol. I just wanted to advise him that the notification protocol is in place. We are always advised by Corrections Canada when a parolee is transferred here. There has been some work to improve the system and the RCMP are advised - as well as our probation services - and are regularly briefed by Canada. Controversial cases are the subject of a special briefing. So, we do have a notification protocol in place.

Mr. Phillips: So the minister is saying, with respect to that, that the reason we've heard nothing about an individual who's been transferred here is that, in the view of the deal with protocol and the group that reviews these things, there has been no one sent here who could pose a risk to others in the territory.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: That's right. The community notification protocol looks at each case individually and makes a decision based on the risk to the community and the personal security of the offender.

Mr. Phillips: I thank the minister for that quick response. I will pass it on to the constituent who raised the issue with me so that they know they can feel safe in their community.

Citizens on patrol - that was an initiative that was recommended in the property-related crime and it was one where I think there was going to be a pilot project initiated in Whitehorse as part of the Whitehorse community policing project. Has anything else happened on it since then? I know they were looking for some volunteers but I haven't heard much from the city's perspective or from YTG's perspective whether that program has been initiated.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The feasibility study on the proposal was completed. Consideration is being given to including this initiative as part of the Whitehorse community policing project that I referred to a few moments ago.

Mr. Phillips: That's the same note that I have, which the minister just read into the record. What I'm trying to pry from the minister is that consideration has been given. This is March the 21st. Has anybody given any more consideration to this initiative since the 21st of March, or is it still just being considered?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The March date that I have is the same one; that initiative is being considered, along with others.

Mr. Phillips: The questions I'm going to be asking about these initiatives are updates from March. One of the actions, action number 4, the minister talked about, auxiliary police services in rural Yukon, the minister has sort of addressed that, talking about legislation, and I'm glad to see that's going to happen, and, as well, moving these services into rural Yukon.

Action number 5 is tripartite negotiations with the RCMP satellite detachment in Kwanlin Dun. They said a change in leadership at Kwanlin Dun and the impact of self-government have put negotiations on hold.

Now, I know Kwanlin Dun has been in the news quite a bit lately and it hasn't been in discussions with respect to tripartite negotiations. I just wonder if we have made any headway at all there. I know we were close at one time, and then it appears that things have stalled. Is it still kind of sitting on their plate waiting for other things to be dealt with?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Certainly there is still an interest at Kwanlin Dun in policing. People in the community would like to be safe and would like to see a policing model that provides regular service for them. There have been ongoing discussions with the Kwanlin Dun leadership, and there has not been a change to report.

Mr. Phillips: Okay, Mr. Chair.

On the wilderness leadership camp pilot project, I think there was a statement in the last few weeks, and the minister alluded to that project again - sort of like a little hint - one little line on the bottom of the ministerial statement that they are considering it. Can the minister give us an update on where we're at with that? Does the minister plan to initiate the camp this summer? Where does the minister hope to have the camp - just maybe an update on what's happening with it?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: There are two youth leadership projects that are being planned for this summer. One will be located in Ross River. The other will be in the Upper Liard-Watson Lake area. In both cases, we have the community involved as well as Crime Prevention Yukon and various Yukon government departments.

Mr. Phillips: There was also talk about another camp, I believe, for offenders. Is that being planned as well, or is this just the leadership camp? There was a mention in the ministerial statement about another wilderness camp. Is this the wilderness camp they talked about in that statement, because the statement talked about Ross River and Watson Lake, I believe, and then at the end, it talked about another wilderness camp that it hopes to get started later on? Is that what the minister is referring to?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: What I'm referring to are the two youth leadership camps that are essentially recreation programs for youth in the communities of Ross River and Watson Lake-Upper Liard.

Mr. Phillips: The public advisory committee for the WCC, the Whitehorse Correctional Centre. The target date to establish it is the fall of 1997. Has the minister solicited names of individuals for that committee now? What kind of process is the minister going to use for that?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I have not sent any letters out about seeking nominations to a public advisory committee for the Whitehorse Correctional Centre. I can tell the member that there are correctional inspections officers who have been appointed.

Mr. Phillips: Well, we'll leave that I guess, until the fall session and, hopefully, more will done and there will be more things happening with it.

That pretty well wraps up most of my questions in general debate. I may have some more questions as we go through line by line.

Again, I want to thank the staff at Justice for the briefing they gave us and the information that they provided. It was very useful and it answered a lot of my questions before I got into the House.

Mr. Cable: I have some questions that relate to issues that have already been raised by the critic for the Official Opposition and I'll deal with those. There are a number of other questions that I have also.

With respect to maintenance enforcement, the department provided us with a briefing and some stats that had been collected. I gather there has been just one case where the administrative sanctions have been applied in a case of maintenance arrears. There's a reference in the minister's letter to me of April 30th, 1997, stating that the criteria for the applications of the sanctions were too restrictive. I think that was dealt with briefly a few moments ago.

Could the minister indicate, specifically, what was the restrictive criteria that prevented the application of the administrative sanctions?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The criteria that was established was that, in order for administrative sanctions to be imposed, the debtor had to be in long-term default of any child support payments and considered in the never-pay category. I think that was why there was only ever one case where the sanction was applied.

The revised criteria are that administrative sanctions would apply to a file with arrears. The requirement would no longer be there that it must be a never-pay child support, but for a file with arrears, the maintenance enforcement program could seek administrative penalties. If, within 10-days' notice, the parent had not paid their child support, then the application of sanctions would apply.

Mr. Cable: I had a conversation with a member of the bar who is involved in matrimonial law, and he indicated that, on the making of one payment, the administrative sanction would be released. Is that, in fact, one of the criteria and, if so, why?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I can check and get an answer for the member on that.

Mr. Cable: I'll look forward to that together with, if in fact that is the case, an explanation of why that is the case.

The legislation has met some resistance here in the Yukon with respect to the administrative sanctions for not paying motor vehicle offence fines. Has the legislation in other jurisdictions - similar legislation relating to maintenance arrears - been successful, or has it met resistance?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The statistics indicate that administrative sanctions have been successful in reducing the amount of fines owed here in the Yukon. As well, the threat of a driver's licence sanction appears to have been quite effective in reducing the total amount of fines that become unpaid after a certain date.

I know from talking to colleagues in other parts of the country that generally it's found that, where these administrative sanctions are put in place, people become far more timely about making their payments, so that they don't lose their driver's licence or their right to license their vehicle.

Mr. Cable: When the minister and I were here in the House when the act was brought in, there was some discussion on the linkage between the Justice department and the motor vehicles branch. Has that linkage been computerized?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: No, it hasn't. There is ongoing work with the systems in Justice and the systems in Community and Transportation Services.

Mr. Cable: The question I was asking - just let me reiterate it - what does the motor vehicles branch have on record with respect to maintenance arrears? Is there an ongoing, up-to-date, day-by-day connection with the Justice department?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't believe that they meet day by day. I believe that they meet every couple of months. There is an ongoing attempt to match the particulars of a person convicted of an offence to that of the registered owner of a vehicle.

Mr. Cable: What the minister is saying, then, is that there is a periodic update to the motor vehicles branch? The minister is nodding her head in the affirmative.

One of the questions raised by the critic for the Official Opposition related to the police commission. I have read the press reports of the commission that were published during the election. It's not clear in my mind as to what the rationale for the police commission suggestion was. Was there some problem with the police themselves or was there some additional rationale for the bringing up of this suggestion?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, all that we're attempting to do is to make sure that police and the justice system is open and accountable to the public. We believe that Yukoners want to be involved in issues around policing and justice priorities. I think we've seen a strong demonstration of that interest in the number of people who are participating in community justice committees around the territory. Certainly, Whitehorse is only one example. I hope that answers the member's questions.

Mr. Cable: No, not really. In some jurisdictions, a police commission was set up to actually supervise and hire and fire the police. I gather this commission that the minister is talking about and that her government is talking about is more or less a committee for justice issues. It's not really a commission in the conventional sense, is it? Am I correct?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, as I indicated in response to similar questions from the Official Opposition critic, we're looking at things like a legislative framework to cover the auxiliary police. We want to make sure that the public can be involved in policing and justice priorities. That work will be ongoing throughout our term in government.

Mr. Cable: Is the minister saying, then, that if the commission is brought in it will have a legislative framework about it that will actually deal with the RCM Police as well?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, what I was saying to the member is that we are looking at giving the auxiliary policing program a legislative base and confirming the role that Yukoners want their auxiliary police to fulfill. We want to be sure that we have a method for Yukoners to be involved in setting policing and justice priorities. This could be a police commission or it might take another form.

Policing standards would be developed in close consultation with First Nations. There have been questions raised about standards of training and equipment being adopted by First Nations interested in policing their own community. There is also ongoing involvement of the First Nations policing program that the federal government has in place now. There are a number of First Nations constables in Yukon communities.

Mr. Cable: There was a news clip during the election, in the September 6th, 1996, issue of the Yukon News, when the now Government Leader put out the idea of a police commission. On page 5 of that issue of the Yukon News, the Government Leader is quoted as saying, "Such a commission would ensure that our priorities as a community are reflected not only through the administration of justice, through the police services, but right through to which cases are taken on by the Crown and how aggressively they are pursued."

Is that the thinking of the minister?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: When I'm talking to the member opposite about policing and justice priorities, and about the public being involved in policing priorities, I think I should ask the member to consider the joint leadership vision statement that we signed off with the RCMP not too long ago. We have a shared vision statement between the Government of the Yukon and the RCMP that guides the delivery of policing services within the territory. The model that's set out in that vision statement is one of support for community policing initiatives. It's one of support for Yukon First Nations, as they prepare for self-government and the rights associated in the umbrella final agreement.

So I think there is progress on that, and I think the member knows what my concerns are and what our government's concerns are and how we're trying to address them.

Mr. Cable: The reason I read the quote out is that it deals not only with the police but it appears to deal with the prosecutor. Just to reiterate the quote, the Government Leader is talking about the use of the commission and says, "... but right through to which cases are taken on by the Crown and how aggressively they are pursued." Is that what the minister's thinking about, that there will be some sort of supervisory body over the prosecutors, eventually, when they come under the territorial roof?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I can anticipate that when we do have a public discussion paper out where we're asking the public for their comments on policing priorities, the member opposite will be keen to respond and to give us the benefit of his suggestions and wisdom. I look forward to that.

Mr. Cable: I don't think the minister is answering the question. Just let me move the question over a bit, on the Crown attorney devolution. Obviously, it's not happening right at the moment. What is the resistance from the federal government? Is the minister aware of why there is resistance?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm not aware of any resistance on the part of the federal government at all. In fact, when I spoke to Allan Rock in February of this year, he was most attentive and interested, and he certainly indicated to me that it was unfortunate that the federal government hadn't yet acted on the Stein Lal Commission report that was reported in 1995.

He then went on to indicate that the federal government would support proceeding along the guidelines that were set out in the Lal report and that he was looking forward to seeing what the consultation process that the federal government was ready to engage in would yield results.

So, as far as I know, the federal minister is supportive of that initiative. I hope the member opposite is as well. We've had some letters back from the groups that we've written to indicating their support for devolution of the Crown attorney's function.

Mr. Cable: Let me just say to the minister that a government which indicates that it is going to supervise cases - which cases are taken on by the Crown - and how aggressively they are pursued, that raises all sorts of red flags with civil libertarians. Could I suggest to the minister that this being a very small jurisdiction where politicians rub up against prosecutors and judges on a day-to-day basis, that she consider the approach taken by the Province of Nova Scotia where there is an act to provide for an independent director of public prosecutions. I have a copy of that act, which says, "There shall be a director of public prosecutions who, amongst other things, may conduct all prosecutions independently of the Attorney General, except that the director of public prosecutions shall comply with all the instructions or guidelines issued by the Attorney General in writing and published pursuant to this act," and a little later on in the act, it says, "The director of public prosecutions may be removed from office for cause by a resolution of the Assembly" - not by the government but by the Assembly.

Could I suggest that to her for her consideration, if in fact she is actively pursuing the devolution of the Crown attorney's office? That will put the civil libertarians' minds a wee bit to rest.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't believe that I've taken any action that would give civil libertarians any cause to be fearful. The member is raising some concerns about how aggressively cases are pursued, and he seems to be basing that on an article in a newspaper. I could ask the member to phrase his questions on comments that I've made publicly or on actions that the Department of Justice or any of the players in the justice field have made.

I don't believe there's any reason to believe that we would support or engage in political interference with the administration of justice. I'll certainly be happy to take the member's recommendations into account and to look at models of a Crown prosecution function, but I think the member should be aware that the Yukon is the only jurisdiction where the Crown prosecution function remains with the federal government. In fact, the Yukon government has the ability to prosecute on territorial offences. It's only federal offences where the Crown attorney's office remains under the federal authority.

Mr. Cable: On another point that was dealt with tangentially, I think, by the Justice critic for the Official Opposition; this is appointments to the judiciary. Now, the Judicial Council was set up under the Territorial Court Act, and the act sets out who shall sit on the Judicial Council. There's a rider at the end of the clause at section 17(1) that sets up that: "a lawyer and not more than two other persons appointed by the Commissioner in