Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, November 3, 1997 - 1:30 p.m.

Speaker: I will call the House to order. We will proceed at this time with prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker: We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.

Do we have any tributes?

TRIBUTES

In remembrance of Dorothy Wabisca

Mr. McRobb: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to Dorothy Wabisca, who passed away on August 11, 1997.

Dorothy was of Tlingit descent and a member of the Killer Whale Clan of the Champagne-Aishihik First Nations. Dorothy was a daughter of Sue Van Bibber and was raised along with four brothers and sisters at Champagne and Whitehorse. In 1955, she married Roy Wabisca and settled in Whitehorse. Shortly after the birth of her youngest child, Dorothy began upgrading her skills at Yukon Vocational School and has since been involved with and worked for First Nations organizations in both an administrative and political role.

In the late 1970s, she held the first-ever job as native advisor to the Yukon Commissioner. In the mid-1980s, she became the western vice president of the Native Council of Canada. In the late 1980s, she returned to the Yukon and was elected vice chair of the Council for Yukon Indians.

From 1990 until her passing, Dorothy worked with the Champagne-Aishihik First Nations in self-government negotiations and claims implementation. Dorothy also served on many boards and committees, including the Yukon Indian Arts and Crafts Co-op, the Council on Native Women and the Law, the World Council of Indigenous Peoples, the Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce and, until her passing, was chairperson of the Yukon Housing Corporation.

Dorothy was a leader and an advisor; a consensus builder with a no-nonsense attitude. She was strong and respected but, most of all, she was a friend who reached out and touched everyone who came in contact with her. Her guidance and wisdom will be greatly missed by her family, friends, First Nation organizations and all Yukoners.

Ms. Duncan: Mr. Speaker, Dorothy Wabisca also called Porter Creek home, and I would like to join with my colleagues in paying tribute to her. I met with Dorothy a number of times over the years and I will always remember her as a strong leader, able to envision the opportunities and solutions in all the challenges that presented themselves.

The Yukon, in particular the Champagne-Aishihik First Nation, lost a respected leader this summer. Dorothy Wabisca will be missed by all who knew and worked with her. Our caucus would like to join with other members in this Legislature in offering our sincere condolences to her many friends and family.

Speaker: Are there any introduction of visitors?

Are there any returns or documents for tabling?

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, I have for tabling a letter of instruction from the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to the Commissioner of the Yukon, Judy Gingell, and the public accounts for 1996-97.

Hon. Mr. Harding: I have for tabling the recent arbitral award for the collective bargaining process between the YTG and the YTA.

Also, I have the annual report 1996 for the Yukon Development Corporation.

Speaker: Are there any petitions?

Are there any bills to be introduced?

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Bill No. 22: Introduction and First Reading

Hon. Mr. Harding: I move that

Bill No. 22, entitled Oil and Gas Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Minister of Economic Development that Bill No. 22, entitled Oil and Gas Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 22 agreed to

Bill No. 34: Introduction and First Reading

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I move

Bill No. 34, entitled Continuing Consolidation of Statutes Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the Minister of Justice that Bill No. 34, entitled Continuing Consolidation of Statutes Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 34 agreed to

Bill No. 35: Introduction and First Reading

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill No. 35, entitled An Act to Amend the Financial Administration Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Speaker: It is moved by the Hon. Government Leader that Bill No. 35, entitled An Act to Amend the Financial Adminsitration Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 35 agreed to

Speaker: Are there any notices of motion?

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr. Cable: I give notice of the following motion:

THAT it is the opinion of this House that the Yukon Utilities Board should be directed to use an Integrated Resource Planning Process in the licensing of all energy projects, so that social and environmental costs to society are included in new project assessment.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I give notice of the following motion:

THAT it is the opinion of this House that

1. motor vehicle collisions are the leading cause of death for people between the ages of 16 and 24;

2. new drivers of all ages are more likely to be involved in serious motor vehicle crashes than experienced drivers; and

3. the government should prepare a discussion paper examining the implementation of a graduated licensing system for new drivers in the Yukon.

Speaker: Are there any statements by ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Taking Action on Crime

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Speaker, in keeping with our government's policy of fostering safe, healthy communities, I rise to inform members of a number of initiatives we are undertaking to take action on crime and to address the causes of crime in our communities.

Yukon people are justifiably concerned about the senseless and destructive criminal acts taking place in the territory. Our government recognizes the important role it has in addressing these concerns and improving public confidence in the justice system.

I was pleased to observe the Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce and other groups appeal for leadership and cooperation among agencies and individuals involved with the problems of crime in our communities.

The safety of our communities is a shared responsibility. Each of us, no matter what our position in the community, must take personal responsibility for this. A cooperative response is necessary, and this is exactly what our government supports.

Mr. Speaker, I believe all members of the House will agree that a preventive approach to crime is preferable to remedial action after the fact. My intention is to build upon the excellent work already being done by government departments and community agencies to address social problems that lead to crime and eventually the courts. The vision of this government is that actions to be taken will attack the root causes of crime, reduce crime in our communities, reduce the impact of crime on victims, make the justice system more responsive and effective, encourage offenders to take responsibility for their actions, communicate information about the justice system and crime prevention and improve coordination of crime prevention activities.

I am pleased to announce the following new steps toward fulfilling this vision: a crime prevention and policing branch is being set up immediately within the Department of Justice; existing staff and functions are being realigned to create a stronger focus on crime prevention; the Justice department is teaming up with the RCMP to hire a coordinator of crime prevention. This partnership with the RCMP will strengthen our joint capability to coordinate crime prevention activities.

The crime prevention coordinator will work on new and existing crime prevention programs with government representatives, the RCMP, First Nations, municipalities, schools and community groups to develop specific programs across the territory. This initiative will use existing funds and will operate on a pilot basis until March 31, 1998. My colleague, the Minister of Health and Social Services, and I are in the process of identifying funding for a youth crime prevention coordinator position to be added to this branch and are reviewing ways to improve the youth justice system. I expect to meet soon with the mayor and new council of Whitehorse to continue our close working relationship in developing new strategies to combat crime.

A Justice and RCMP public forum on community safety will take place in early March, 1998. We expect this forum to be co-hosted by Justice, police, First Nations and municipalities. One outcome could be a council on crime prevention that would meet annually to discuss plans for programs, projects and legislation that address community safety. First Nations and municipalities will be involved.

A strategic working group will be established to develop and coordinate an early intervention crime prevention action plan called Taking Action On Crime. Representatives from the Departments of Justice, Education, Heath and Social Services, Community and Transportation Services, the Women's Directorate and the RCMP will work with Justice Canada, the Council of Yukon First Nations, Crime Prevention Yukon and the Association of Yukon Communities on Yukon-wide actions.

This group will work closely with the city, the Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce and the Kwanlin Dun First Nation on actions to address specific concerns in Whitehorse. It will also provide guidance in planning the March forum on community safety.

Crime prevention and community safety plans will be developed with each community. These plans will be developed through close collaboration with the RCMP and other government and community agencies and will build upon the excellent work already being done in community policing, family group conferencing and community justice.

Public awareness activities related to crime prevention will also be expanded. The first edition of Community Justice News was released on October 22. This newsletter, prepared by the Haines Junction Community Justice Committee, is an innovative way to build a community justice information network in the Yukon that puts a spotlight on what is happening in the communities.

A community-based editiorial team determines the content of the newsletter, which is supported in part by the Yukon Department of Justice.

A Yukon community justice website will be available on the Internet in January. This web page has been donated by YukonNet to allow people across the Yukon and around the world to read about what is being done here with regard to community justice.

The Haines Junction Community Justice Committee, in cooperation with Crime Prevention Yukon and the Yukon Public Legal Education Association will provide the information for this interactive site. It will include articles on community justice and crime prevention, and will provide general information on the law.

Mr. Speaker, effective crime prevention requires local action and local solutions. Some of these solutions will be debated this fall as proposed legislation regarding the Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act and the Victims of Family Violence Act, as well as important amendments to the Motor Vehicles Act that are designed to make our streets, roads and highways safer for everybody.

Our strategy of taking action on crime will recognize children and families as priority sectors of the population. We will focus on preventing crime by investing in families to ensure that we have integrated early intervention crime prevention.

Mr. Speaker, through these actions and others that I will be announcing later, our government hopes to reduce crime in our communities, enhance public confidence in the Yukon's justice system.

Mr. Phillips: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to see this initiative before the House today. I'm a little disappointed though that it's taken one year to come about. Many of the initiatives listed are in many of the same words in fact that are in the document that we have in front of us that were in the Talking About Crime initiatives. The recommendations of that particular group were in the minister's hands over a year ago, and it has taken a year to kindly put together - or start to put together - the administrative side of trying to deliver on the recommendations made in the Yukon Party Talking About Crime report that went all over the territory.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a couple of comments about these initiatives and some problems that I can see on the surface that appear to be in the presentation the minister gave today.

They talk about encouraging offenders to take responsibility for their actions. Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't think I've heard too many people use the word "encourage". Most people have said to me that there should be something in law to make offenders take responsibility for their actions, and that "encourage" has been the problem in the past, and that's why there seems to be a much higher crime rate.

They say "reduce the impact of crime on victims and make the justice system more responsive and effective." Mr. Speaker, there is something that I guess was lacking in the Talking About Crime participation, and obviously again lacking in this particular move, and that is the involvement of the Crown attorney's office and the local judges in participating in any discussions about crime prevention and any discussion about future actions on crime. I would hope that the minister's office - heaven forbid I suggest that she write a letter to the judges - but I would hope that the minister's office or someone in the Justice department would communicate to our local judges and the Crown to encourage them to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem, and that they participate in any discussions that might take place in crime prevention.

I know they probably have some useful ideas and I know that they probably have some useful things they could learn from travelling around the territory listening to the average Yukoner in their concerns about crime.

Finally, I would like the minister, if she could, to provide us with what the costs will be for this community crime prevention policing branch that is going to be set up within the Department of Justice and a little more detailed breakdown of where the funding is going to come from. I know we are told constantly by the officials in the department that there is no extra money anywhere, so I want to know from the minister what programs are going to be cut out or discontinued and, if there is no new money, what programs are going to be sort of done away with to provide money for this particular program. And then, of course, I need to know the overall costs from the minister.

Finally, and this does not have to be done right away, I wonder if the minister could have her department provide us with the most recent figures in the past year, from now until October of 1996, of what the crime levels were, so that we can have that on record and a year from now, when we come back into the House for the fall session, we can look and see whether or not this Taking Action On Crime really did work or if it was just more money spent and with very little result. I would like the minister to give a commitment here today that she will come back into this House with those figures for us within the next few weeks or possibly before the House adjourns, to let us know what the current figures have been for the last year.

Like I said, I'm a little disturbed that it took a year for the minister to come up with something but I'm pleased to see that there's very little variation, if any, from the initiatives that were already underway and the work that was being done by the Yukon Party government. I'm pleased to see that, although they criticized what we were doing, they are certainly following in the same track. So I'm hopeful that those initiatives will work. They were recommendations from the general public and if the minister follows those reports I would hope that there will be some positive results.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cable: The minister's efforts and her initiative are based on two themes. One is that crime is a community responsibility; it's just not the responsibility of probation officers and social workers and educators and police, and whoever else is in the system, or the justice system, for that matter. The other theme is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of sentencing, and those are two themes that we agree with in the Liberal Party, and I think most other people in the community agree with them.

Now, something I had asked the minister during the Justice debate in the spring was whether she collected statistics relating to the efficiency of the various sentencing alternatives. We heard people suggest that young offenders, for example, be paraded down Main Street to be embarrassed, or that they be drafted into the armed services. So people are looking for sentencing alternatives, and what we need, in this day of the computer, is the efficiency on the repeat offender rate - the recidivism rate - with respect to things like fines and incarceration and community work service and personal work service orders, the whole battery of sentencing alternatives that are available to judges, both for young offenders and for adults.

Another comment I would make, and a question I ask of the minister: it appears that there are three departments involved in this initiative - Health and Social Services, and Justice, and Education. Now, we all know that, within the public service, of course, there are some territorial boundaries, and I would ask the minister to tell the House who is actually taking the lead, so that these initiatives, which appear to be quite sound, do not founder on departmental imperatives.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'd like to thank my colleagues for their support on these initiatives. I do have to tell the critic for the official opposition that this is representing ongoing work of both government people and community agencies. The member doesn't need to make the allegation that nothing has been happening in the last year. A number of things have taken place over the last year. We've supported community justice initiatives in a number of communities. There's been ongoing work building on what the community has recommended we do within the justice system and within alternatives, and so, while there are some new initiatives here, there's also been a lot of ongoing work.

I would like to thank members of the Department of Justice who have been working, as well as the people involved in community agencies. I don't know if the member heard that this past Hallowe'en there were 60 citizens who volunteered to help the RCMP to keep peace on the streets and that there were very little incidences of vandalism or problems on Hallowe'en. I think that is an indication of how much community support there is and community responsibility for safe neighbourhoods.

I would also like to assure the official opposition critic that the judiciary and the Crown attorney office, among others, responded to the consultation documents that our government put out in regard to the Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act and the Victims of Family Violence Act. I believe that they are more than willing to work with other segments of the justice community and I am pleased with that.

There were some specific questions for numbers that I will be happy to bring back to members.

I would like to mention as well that alternatives to the court system - diversion programs, family conferencing and restorative justice initiatives - particularly when they are working with youth, are initiatives that take some time to actually show a demonstration of results, but we do believe they are effective. In other communities in Canada and in other countries around the world where restorative justice initiatives have been undertaken, they have been found to be very successful. I will, however, bring back further information for the members opposite. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Kwanlin Dun initiative - recreation and leadership training for youth in McIntyre

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to inform this House of a new joint venture between the Yukon government and the Kwanlin Dun First Nation that reflects our government's policy of promoting safe and healthy communities.

Earlier this year, the supervisor of youth services for the Department of Health and Social Services took a lead role in developing and implementing a comprehensive recreation and leadership training program for children and youth residing in the McIntyre subdivision. This was done in partnership with the Kwanlin Dun First Nation.

This eight-week youth program was highly successful. It provided over a hundred different sport and recreation activities to approximately 90 children living in the community, as well as providing leadership training and summer employment for 16 youth in the community.

I can tell the House that I had an opportunity to visit on two occasions and I was very impressed by the young people who were in these leadership capacities. I was very impressed by their maturity and how they had developed.

Mr. Speaker, this program has had a positive impact on the quality of life of the community in that it has provided new experiences for youth, improved the self-esteem of participants, introduced new knowledge and skills and increased the recognition of youth as a valuable resource in the community.

An important related outcome of the project was a reduction in property crime. A comparison of reported occurrences of property-related crimes between June and August for the two previous years indicates that property crime dropped significantly this summer in the Kwanlin Dun community.

The project was developed as part of an interdepartmental initiative between the Kwanlin Dun Band and the Departments of Health and Social Services, Education, Justice and Community and Transportation Services in response to an identified need for structured recreation activities for children and youth throughout the summer months.

The project was initially designed as a short-term initiative to address periods of inactivity and lack of constructive focus for children and youth. Its success, however, has prompted the department and the First Nation to agree to work together on broader child and youth initiatives.

Based on the success of this summer's program, the supervisor of youth services will assist the First Nation in an integrated approach to the delivery of such programs as the community wellness program, health services, the Ashea Head Start program, HRD/training and education, recreation and community justice.

As well as this, Mr. Speaker, establishing the child welfare process that would bridge the services provided by YTG to what is needed by the Kwanlin Dun First Nation will be coordinated.

We share with Kwanlin Dun the belief that by working together with other levels of government and organizations, a healthier community can be built.

Mr. Speaker, this is one example of the work we are doing with and for youth in the Yukon. The leadership program provided skills to the youth who participated in it and many others who are now expressing interest.

By working together today, and by helping to ensure the well-being of children and youth, we are laying the foundations for strong, healthy communities tomorrow.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Jenkins: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It's a pleasure today to respond to the ministerial statement regarding the Kwanlin Dun initiative and its success. Creating and promoting safe and healthy communities was a priority during the Yukon Party's term in office and, in turn, we initiated a comprehensive crime prevention strategy dealing with a number of issues, including that of youth crime.

We are pleased to see the Yukon government has also recognized the importance of such initiatives and would like to commend both the government and the Kwanlin Dun First Nation for successfully introducing and implementing the Kwanlin Dun initiative, which provided sport and recreational activities, as well as summer employment, for youth of the McIntyre community.

My question of the minister, which I would appreciate the minister responding to in his rebuttal, is, if indeed the Yukon government intends to initiate other youth programs with other Yukon First Nations and, more importantly, whether or not the minister has come to his senses and has recognized and reconsidered his opposition to provide stable funding for the youth empowerment and success program. As Yukoners are well aware, YES has had its fair share of difficulties over the past year as a result of federal cutbacks and a territorial government that has consistently refused to offer long-term support to YES, while pretending to be committed to youth at risk, as was outlined in the NDP A Better Way.

Last week, YES announced that it would be closing its doors for lack of funds. While this didn't come as much of a surprise to many of us, it seems to be astonishing to the Minister of Health and Social Services, as he was not aware of the financial crunch that was facing YES. What is even more astonishing here is the minister's sudden case of amnesia. Over the past year there has occurred considerable lobbying efforts from members of this Legislature and members of the private sector and, more importantly, from members of our youth.

Mr. Speaker, this is a program that's proven to be successful, providing a safe, positive place for youth who are at risk to meet. As relayed to the federal Minister of Justice, Mr. Allan Rock, by our Member of Parliament, northern youth are at higher risk of destructive behaviour and suicide than southern youth, and that the YES program is unique in Whitehorse, as opposed to the many programs that exist in larger cities.

It would appear that everyone but our Minister of Health and Social Services is in full support of the YES program. Once again, I am urging the Minister of Health and Social Services to rise above partisan politics for the good of our youth by reconsidering his opposition to providing long-term support for YES.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, by and large, the Yukon Liberal caucus is in favour of a coordinated approach to the delivery of services for youth or, for that matter, any other group. I was most interested in how the federally-funded programs for children, as well as youth, were to be considered together by the Yukon supervisor of youth services who has been seconded to the Kwanlin Dun as well as by the First Nation itself. The policy of seconding staff to the Yukon First Nation is a good one. The only concerns that I do have are: are other Yukon First Nations going to be able to access seconded staff in the Department of Social Services; how long will this staff person be serving the Kwanlin Dun First Nation; what specifically is the seconded staff person doing - what are his terms of reference; who is replacing the seconded staff person in the department, and how is that position being funded; what resources - for example staff and dollars - have been allocated to continue the processes that this staff person from the government is initiating at the Kwanlin Dun? Is this staff person working alone up at the Kwanlin Dun? Does the First Nation supply administrative support to seconded staff?

We are setting precedents here. Which positions have been identified as being the First Nation liaison staff up at Kwanlin Dun?

I see a lot of good intentions here from the government. I hope that further initiatives in this area are well-planned and will have lasting, fully-resourced effects on the First Nation that requests these staff secondments.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I will respond first of all to our critic from the Liberal Party and I will provide her with some of the details on this. I would say that this is a policy of our government. It's a first one for Health and Social Services, but I do know other government departments have provided seconded staff to assist First Nations, and I think this is the kind of initiative that is laudable because we can share resources and often share expertise. As well, we've also begun making opportunities available for training First Nations staff within YTG. I will get further details.

With regard to my friend from the Yukon Party, I think he gives new meaning to the word "bootleg". He managed to bootleg an entire speech.

First of all, he may not be aware of the fact that over the past year this government has supported the youth empowerment and success program to the tune of some $24,000. As well, in the period between June and October this year, the group also received $10,000 from the population health studies of the federal government, of which we took a lead in trying to encourage the federal government to come forward there. As well, I believe some $8,000 was raised within the community.

I had a very productive meeting with the chairperson of the YES group on Friday. It was a very frank, very open discussion. We discussed matters of mutual interest, mutual support. I am committed to working with this group.

We have some issues that I think we need to work around. I think we have some issues where we can work in commonality. I have not ruled anything out, but I do recognize that the board itself is going through some considerable turmoil. There has been some considerable change. I believe they are committed to getting a good, functioning program up there and I am interested in working with them.

Incidentally, along with that as well, after consulting with the chair of the YES board, I made some suggestions in terms of the kind of strength that they might want to bring on to the board and, following on that, I contacted a prominent Whitehorse businessperson to see if they would serve on the board and that was agreed to. I think this is a productive way we can work together with this group. I look forward to a solid meaningful relationship with this board in the future. Thank you.

Yukon Energy Corporation fire: update

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to provide members with a further update on the fire at the Yukon Energy Corporation on Thursday morning.

Officials from the Yukon Energy Corporation and the Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. continue to work fully with the Whitehorse Fire Department to determine the extent and the amount of damage. The origin of the fire appears to have been traced to the northeast corner of the bottom floor in the building, which housed the three turbines, but the cause of the fire has not yet been determined.

The formal fire investigation is expected to begin on Wednesday when the Yukon's fire marshall will be available to work with the Whitehorse fire chief. Preliminary estimates on the replacement costs are between $3 million and $5 million.

I would caution members and the public to be aware that until a full assessment of the damage has been completed, the estimate could vary; for instance, the SCADA master panels have sustained only limited smoke and water damage. At the same time if the turbines suffered any structural damage, this would increase replacement cost dramatically.

We are pleased to report that consumers should not be affected by these costs since the Yukon Energy Corporation's insurance policy will cover the full replacement value of damage sustained and has a deductible of $100,000. This insurance is held through a consortium of large and reputable insurance firms. The policy may also cover lost revenues if the large turbines are not operating after 60 days.

Mr. Speaker, Yukon Energy Corporation officials are fully in charge of the situation and have developed a plan to return our public utility to normal operations as soon as possible.

The insurance adjusters and the Alberta Power official responsible for insurance programs arrived Friday and initiated a site inspection. A team of three engineers is being brought in by the adjusters early this week to help with the assessment and restoration of these facilities.

Power is to be restored to the site today. A temporary shelter is being prefabricated by Jacob's Industries. Work on the turbines and switch gear can start once the units are protected against falling debris and once fire and insurance officials have authorized demolition of the remains of the building.

The visual inspection of the units is encouraging. With respect to corporate documents and technical material located at the site, it appears that the majority of Yukon Development Corporation and Yukon Energy Corporation records, including critical computer files, may be saved. Yukon Energy Corporation has contracted local experts for the document recovery process.

Space for a temporary control centre and offices has been located and will be available for up to one year while design and construction of replacement facilities are underway. The space is available immediately and at reasonable cost. Yukon Energy Corporation is currently operating from temporary space at the Tourism Business Centre.

Regarding environmental impacts of the fire, the Department of Renewable Resources monitored the downtown and did not detect any increases in the carbon monoxide levels. Water samples taken by Environment Canada also did not register any impact from the fire. The building is free of PCBs, although there were batteries in the basement. The water in this area and the turbine hall was pumped into trucks to be properly disposed of and booms replaced in the river to capture any debris.

The Yukon Energy Corporation and Yukon Electrical Company Ltd. are contracting for project management services for restoration of the control centre, recovery of turbines and office construction.

With respect to the control centre, depending on the extent of the damage to the equipment recovered, a basic centre will be operational in no more than four weeks. A detailed action plan has been prepared and is being expanded as the project proceeds.

While we have received assurances that the fire will not have a negative impact on the territory's power supply, Mr. Speaker, our government continues to advise people that it is in their best interest to practice sound energy conservation measures at all times. As members can appreciate, this is a difficult time for our public utility, but I am confident in the ability of YEC management to respond to the situation quickly and appropriately. Thank you.

Mr. Ostashek: I thank the minister for coming back with a report today and an update on what is a very serious situation in the Yukon.

Mr. Speaker, I do wish the minister could be a little more specific. There are many Yukoners who are very, very concerned about power in light of this fire and in light of the uncertainties of the Faro mine going back into production, knowing full well that if the mine doesn't go back into production, there's going to be another power rate increase. Yet, we have the minister today, some four days after the fire, using words like "the consumers shall not be affected by these costs," and goes on to say that the policy may also cover lost revenues after 60 days. The fact remains that there are some additional costs, and I would appreciate it if the minister could verify this in his rebuttal and be a little more specific and show a little bit more confidence that the rates are not going to go up. That is what I think the Yukon ratepayers expect the minister to say: that the rates will not go up.

The point I would like to draw to the minister's attention that he may be able to address in his rebuttal - and, if not, I would expect a reply early in the week - is: on Thursday, when I asked the minister about the insurance, he said that the policy was carried by our manager. Today, he is saying it is in the Energy Corp.

He is also saying that there's $100,000 deductible. My question to the minister is: who is responsible for the deductible? Is it the energy corporation or is it our manager? This will have an impact on the revenues of the corporation and expenditures.

Also, there are going to be additional diesel generating costs in the 60 days prior to the policy kicking in to cover lost revenues if, in fact, we do have that kick-in. Sixty days is a long time, Mr. Speaker, at this time of year when we are generating electricity with diesel. I had heard over the weekend that diesel generators have been fired up in various Yukon communities to help supply power. I also understand that there is at least one more generator being moved into Haines Junction. These are going to add costs. My concern is that we know what these costs are and what impact they are going to have on ratepayers in the Yukon.

Now, I realize that it is only four days ago that this fire happened but, in light of the seriousness of this, I would have expected the minister to come back with a little more positive statement today.

On the issue of critical computer files that we have here today, the minister is saying they may be saved. Can the minister not advise this House today if there are in fact no backup files for those critical files that may be saved, or are there backup files? If there are not, I would hope that this would be a lesson to the corporation and government how important it is to keep backups of critical information. There will be more questions in the days and weeks ahead on this issue, I believe, but I would appreciate it if the minister could elaborate on this statement in his rebuttal.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cable: Mr. Speaker,

I'm pleased to see that the damage amount is manageable, although the minister cautions that the amount that is on the table right now - $3 million to $5 million - is tentative, and that the insurance adjusters are coming up this week to look at the damage and assumedly make some estimation of the amount of the damages. It would be useful to hear from the minister when the final assessment will be on the table so we can all guess as to how long it's going to take to restore the facilities.

The minister also mentions that there is a 60-day clause in the insurance policy for the loss of profits. Now assumedly, that won't be triggered if the turbines weren't going to be in operation anyway, but it would be useful to have that also confirmed.

I'm pleased to see that most of the records will be recoverable and, for somebody who lives outside of town who is subject to a lot of outages, that the control system will be up and running in about four weeks, and I'd like to say, by way of an aside, that I'd noticed the minister was quoted in the newspapers as saying that he thought the opposition members were holding him personally responsible for setting the fire, and I want to assure him that we were not accusing the minister of playing with matches.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, that certainly makes me feel better, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Liberal member of the opposition for that comment.

Mr. Speaker, I know the official opposition expresses the desire for me to be more specific. However, I would beg of them or plead with them that there would be some understanding of the fact that only four days have passed. The area over there is still often not available to anyone to enter at this point.

With regard to issues of insurance, again, it's an extremely complicated policy. I think that there are some issues that are going to be worked out probably in the courts, Mr. Speaker, because there are certainly insurance companies that are not always that willing to cover everything up front. That shouldn't come as a surprise to the former Minister of the Yukon Energy Corporation.

I'm hopeful that that won't happen but, Mr. Speaker, you certainly can't rule it out, particularly when you go beyond replacement cost. There are provisions that relate to 30 days for incremental costs. There are provisions that relate to 60 days, as they pertain to lost revenue. All of these things, I can assure the member, will be part of the claim, and certainly due efforts will be put forward to try and recoup those costs, if there are any, for the benefit of ratepayers in this territory.

With regard to the policy, when I said it was carried by the manager, I meant that they are responsible for accessing the insurance. They don't hold it. It's not Alberta Power insurance company. They were responsible to the manager for ensuring there was appropriate insurance on the assets, and the actual insurer is a consortium of major multinational insurance companies.

With regard to the deductible, I will get the exact answer for the member on the deductible, if that will be folded into the claim or will be borne by the manager or by Yukon Energy Corporation, or the ratepayers.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the records, I don't know. The member, perhaps, could scratch back, bring back his memory to when he was Minister of the Energy Corporation and what his policy was on backup files and what direction he gave the utility. My understanding is that about 80 percent of the files look like they can be recovered, but some of them are very wet, and they're sorting through them very, very carefully. And it also appears that a lot of the hard drives will be recoverable.

With regard to the Liberal member's question about the final assessment, again, as soon as I can get that final assessment, I'd be more than happy to share as much information as I have with the members opposite, but I have to caution the members that it will more than likely be some time. Right now, for example, the ventilators over top are in very, very bad shape structurally, and before they can inspect the turbine safely, they are having to do some shoring up around the ventilators over top of the turbines, because it's just far too dangerous to be in that area right now. So, those are the kinds of problems the people working very hard, in terms of getting the utility back up to 100 percent, are having to face, so those are the impediments that are arising.

But, as soon as I have appropriate information, I'll be more than happy to provide it to the members. Thank you.

Speaker: This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Unemployment rate

Mr. Ostashek: My question is to the Government Leader concerning jobs for Yukoners.

In September of 1996, when the Yukon Party government was in power, the New Democrats stated that the unemployment rate of the day, 7.8 percent, was simply too high and required positive actions by the Yukon Party government to focus on job creation. However, since the NDP took office, the Yukon has consistently had the dubious distinction of having the second-worst unemployment rate in Canada - always in the double digits. Yet, at a recent NDP meeting, the Government Leader was quoted as saying, "Having the Yukon government spend money to create jobs for Yukoners is just not in the cards."

Can the Government Leader explain to Yukoners why jobs aren't in the cards for them, while his government is spending money creating jobs in other parts of Canada, particularly in areas of computer programming and in managing the energy utility?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I thank the member for the question. I was about to jump up and pounce on my answer until I heard the member refer to the government wanting to create jobs elsewhere, and particularly he referred to high-tech, modern-tech equipment being purchased by the government outside the territory, or software being purchased outside the territory. It was only a couple of years ago, of course, that we were talking about the DocuTech arrangement that the member himself was championing at the time but seemed to suggest that modern technology could only be found by a single supplier outside the territory.

The unemployment rate is too high. It would be too high if it was two points less than it is today. The fact remains that, when the Anvil Range mine shut down, it caused a severe strain on the territorial economy, and it is important that the government take action. What the member failed to quote when he was reciting words that he thought I had said at the NDP territorial council meeting was that I said that I don't intend that this government spend money we don't have, creating jobs.

Now, the member has - in his old sob - and is continually stating in the Legislature and in the media that he wants the government to spend more money. Well, Mr. Speaker, we are spending all the money that we have on programs and services and on the capital budget of this territory.

What I am unable to do, which my predecessor and the member opposite was able to do, was to spend considerable amounts of money on road construction on the Shakwak project and considerable amounts of money in building construction on the Whitehorse Hospital, two projects which could total in any given year between $30 million and $40 million in raw spending activity in this territory. I am unable to do that because there are no such projects available to the government, even though the NDP government is trying to negotiate a renewal of the Shakwak project agreement. I am unable to spend money I do not have.

The government is trying to target money carefully to ensure that there is more work in the communities. I raise, just as an example, the community development fund progam, which is a direct expenditure program, which I know the member disagrees with. I can only tell him that in all the communities that I have visited over the last three weeks, virtually every meeting raised the subject of the community development fund and disagreed with the member and wanted it not only to stay but to be enhanced.

So, we are taking direct action in terms of expenditures, but we cannot do what the member opposite did and that was to spend money to the extent that the Yukon Party was spending money, and we certainly will not spend money we do not have.

Mr. Ostashek: There is a $48 million surplus, but we do not have any money.

It is not a question of having the money; it is a question of spending priorities and the Government Leader should be addressing that. They were very critical of us, that we spent money to create jobs for Yukoners and they are quite prepared to sit there and let nature take its course and let the Faro mine solve all of the unemployment problems in the Yukon.

We will talk more about the community development fund in other debates in this Legislature. I really was surprised to hear the Government Leader use DocuTech as an excuse for his going outside. There is quite a bit of difference in both of those areas. One, nobody in the Yukon could supply a DocuTech machine, and furthermore, the Yukon Party did not have a local hire commission going around the Yukon telling Yukoners how good it was going to be for them under an NDP government.

My supplementary is to the Government Leader to explain why is his expensive Cabinet commission on local hire going around the territory telling Yukoners that the Yukon government will be using its contracting spending power to create jobs for Yukoners, when it's the very same government that sole-sourced contracts to a Nova Scotia company, which we now find are going to be worth in excess of $800,000, for a computer-based data program that at least two companies in the Yukon said they were qualified to provide to the government.

Can the Government Leader tell us how this is creating jobs for Yukoners?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, the fact that we have got problems with the existing law, the existing contract regulations, bespeaks the need for changes to those laws. What this government will not do is break the law on an ad hoc basis for every contract that comes up in anticipation that there may be changes once the consultation is completed. What the government will do is consult with people, and if a change in the law is required - and there is obviously some evidence that there is - then we will change the law, and I'm looking forward to the member's support - the Member from the Liberal Party's support - when we do make changes to those laws, and we will make changes to those laws.

So I'm looking forward to their support.

Mr. Speaker, the member suggests that the government has put all its eggs in the Anvil Range basket. In recognition of Francofête, let me just say au contraire.

Hardly is it the case that this government has put all its eggs in the Anvil Range basket, even though this government is working hard to see a resumption of activities at the Faro mine. The community development fund, the member doesn't like it. I look forward to more comments. Every time he speaks on the community development fund, it entrenches our support in most of this territory.

We are working to improve the record with respect to local hire, local purchase policies, once the consultation with the territory is complete.

With respect to other elements that are associated with economic resurgence and economic vitality, the Air Transat deal, which the Minister of Tourism negotiated, will provide a tremendous boost to the tourism economy.

With respect to training, we have put a million dollars into training trust funds, and we're redoing the training strategy today.

The minister responsible for Economic Development has just held a trade and investment workshop that, by all accounts, was very well received by a large number of people in this territory only last weekend to try to encourage more exports and improve investments in the territory. So, the member today tabled the oil and gas legislation, which, for some reason, bogged down under the previous government.

So, let me just say that there are a number of things that the Yukon government is doing. There are a number of things that are showing that there are some improvements to be made but, in the first instance, we cannot simply spend money we don't have, as much as the member would like us to. We are not going to raise taxes as the member did, and we are going to try and target our expenditures where they count the most, but as long as our spending power is not as significant as the previous government's, as long as the Anvil Range mine continues to be down, then obviously, the government is going to have to work very hard to try to improve the economic figures.

Mr. Ostashek: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

You can certainly tell when the Government Leader doesn't have any answers, and he reverts to political rhetoric.

The Government Leader was a member of this House a year ago when the oil and gas legislation was introduced and went through first reading, and if his government would have been on the ball, it would have been back in the Legislature last fall, or this spring when we offered to debate it even though it was a budgetary session. Now he is accusing us of delaying it.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Speaker: Supplementary question was called.

Mr. Ostashek: In fact, we know it was a deal he made with First Nations, Mr. Speaker.

My final supplementary for the Government Leader is for him to explain how the government is creating jobs for Yukoners by having the Yukon Energy Corporation contract to manage its billing and other services from Dawson City, Mayo and Faro go to now an American-owned, B.C. company - West Kootenay Power - after they condemned us so bitterly because we were going to sell out all our interests to Alberta Power.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Since the basis of the question is with regard to a decision of the board of the Yukon Energy Corporation, I thought I had better respond.

But first, to speak to the preamble regarding oil and gas legislation, the member did indeed bring in a bill on oil and gas but unfortunately it died on the Order Paper because it had no support from the federal government and no support from a significant portion of the Yukon population, Yukon First Nations governments. Typical of the attempts by the Yukon Party to proceed down the devolution agenda, they failed at every turn. We had to pick up the pieces and move this bill forward and, Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to announce that we've tabled a bill today that actually has support of Yukon First Nations, Yukon people and the federal government and will actually succeed in terms of furthering advancement of job creation in this territory and benefits for Yukoners.

With regard to the decision of the board to transfer systems from an Alberta-based company to a company out of Trail, B.C., that was done by the board for sound business reasons, and I welcome the member to talk to some of the board members that he actually appointed to that board that made the decision.

Question re: Unemployment rate

Mr. Ostashek: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The long arm of the minister. My second question is again to the Government Leader concerning jobs for Yukoners not being in the cards. The Government Leader has recently been on a tour of Yukon communities pleading poverty and trying to reduce the expectations of Yukoners and tell them that they'll have fewer jobs because of lack of major capital projects such as the hospital and the Shakwak project, which he referred to in the House today.

Approximately $165 million has been spent on the Shakwak project over the last 20 years, and around another $100 million of work remains to be done for the remaining 136 kilometres. Can the Government Leader explain to this House why, when the current authorization expired about a month ago, October the 1st, the Yukon government has made no previous public announcements about their lobbying efforts on the Shakwak project and why they did not meet with the Governor of Alaska until the end of October? In fact, in the news release announcing that meeting, the Shakwak project wasn't even mentioned, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Shakwak project not a priority for putting Yukoners to work by this government?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the member asked that question because, when we came to office just under a year ago, I asked about the future of the Shakwak project knowing that, without that spending in the territorial economy, road construction companies particularly would suffer, and I was told that very little work, in fact, had been done to that point on the renegotiation of the Shakwak project. Having been involved in the negotiating in the first instance, I knew it took at least three years of lobbying by the NDP government from 1989 to 1992 to get the funding in the first place.

I was surprised that that work had not been done, but that did not deter the current government from proceeding immediately to not only communicate with the Alaskan governor, but also Alaskan legislators, and getting letters of support from the Alaskan governor last spring in support of the Shakwak project. In fact, the letters have been written to the Prime Minister and to the President of the United States and to the department of transportation in the United States, all in an effort to see that the Shakwak project continues. It is precisely because we did care about the need for this particular infrastructure project that we did do that significant work.

Mr. Speaker, the meeting with the Governor of Alaska did include some discussion of the Shakwak project but because we have a long-standing agreement between the two of us that this is a worthwhile project and should be pursued, we did not give it as much air time as we would have for those projects for which we still had lots of work to do or for which there may be disagreement.

Mr. Ostashek: I would advise the Government Leader to go back and check with his department, because he will find that he is wrong. There was extensive lobbying done by the Yukon Party to extend the Shakwak project. I would like the Government Leader to table any correspondence he had showing that he has been lobbying for the continuing support of the Shakwak project - all correspondence that he can.

In opposition, the NDP government was fundamentally opposed to the large budgets that were presented by the Yukon Party government, which were large primarily because of those two big projects - the Shakwak and the hospital - that created lots of jobs for lots of Yukoners. So, I would like to know from the Government Leader now the reason that he is not fully supportive of the Shakwak project, and I don't believe that he is. Is this by philosophy that this government is opposed to the U.S. government spending money to improve the north Alaska Highway?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, that question just doesn't make any sense at all.

Why would an NDP government spend three years negotiating funding for the Shakwak project, to have it be initiated in 1992-93, when they had severe philosophical disagreements with the notion that the federal U.S. government should be spending money in Canada? That doesn't make any sense.

The work on the Haines Road, which had been done previously to that, was found in budgets that were tabled in this House by New Democratic governments. They didn't seem to express any concerns about that then, either, so I don't understand the member's question. Perhaps he could explain that to me.

I will be more than happy to table correspondence that demonstrates to the members opposite that there has been a lobby for a very long time with the Alaskan government and with the U.S. federal government to secure funding for the Shakwak project. As a matter of fact, there was a resolution in the State House last spring, which I believe was communicated to members - certainly it was communicated to me, which said that they acknowledge the need for this project and were going to support us in our efforts to continue our lobby.

Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Speaker, the Government Leader seems to be alluding to the fact that it was the NDP government that was responsible for the Shakwak project, when in fact it was a Conservative government in the territory that negotiated the first agreement on the Shakwak. The Government Leader, in his term in government before, may have worked on a renewal of that contract, but as I recall, the Shakwak project started in the late 1970s and early 1980s, before the NDP ever come to power.

Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary, at a TIA meeting in Haines, the Minister of Economic Development stated that the next territorial budget would only be around $400 million because of lack of these capital projects, which means that there'll be a very small capital budget next year and fewer private sector jobs. But, Mr. Speaker, that's because of a tremendous increase in the operation and maintenance expenditures of this government.

Can the Government Leader confirm if the Economic Development minister's prediction of a $400 million budget was accurate? We know there'll be no funding in that budget for the Shakwak project.

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, one thing at a time. First of all, the Shakwak project was not negotiated by the territorial government at all, at any time. It was never negotiated by the Yukon government. It was negotiated by the Canadian government. The Canadian government had responsibility for operation and capital for the Alaska Highway and it was the Canadian government that signed a treaty with the U.S. government for the funding of the Shakwak project.

Now, by 1989 the project had become moribund. There was a need for a rejuvenation of the project and the NDP government did very actively pursue the project reconstruction at that time and did do a lot of work to negotiate a renewal and rejuvenation of that particular project, which paid results and paid dividends in the sense that it did provide, from 1992 to 1993 onwards to this last year, very significant capital outlays to the territory, and now through the Yukon government because now the Yukon government is managing the construction of the Alaska Highway. Now, that was the reality that we faced and now the reality is that we have to rejuvenate the project once again.

With respect to the overall budget totals, the member is going to have to wait for next year's budget allotments. We are still not in a position to know precisely what the budget allotment, or even the transfer payments from federal government, is going to be. I am looking forward to having discussions with Mr. Martin in the not too distant future to talk about that subject. But, I will be tabling an estimate as accurate as can conceivably be determined at this point within a week or two, when the supplementary budget is tabled in the House with the figures for this year.

Question re: Gibbs Group Homes, cross-cultural training for staff

Mrs. Edelman: I have some questions for the Minister of Health and Social Services and these questions are about the services provided by Gibbs Group Homes for-profit company that operates all the youth group homes in Whitehorse.

Can the minister tell the House what type of cross-cultural training and awareness the staff at these group homes receive?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I cannot speak specifically regarding the actual cross-cultural aspect. However, as these homes do interact with a number of First Nations children, there would be sensitivity to First Nations needs.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, a number of the youth, as the minister has said, in these group homes are First Nations people. Gibbs Group Homes has approximately 50 staff people, but less than 10 percent of the staff are First Nations. Combined with the fact that there is little or no cross-cultural training provided to staff members, I believe that the level of service being provided to the youth in this area is lacking.

Is the minister aware of these staff shortcomings, and if he is, what steps are being taken to increase cross-cultural training and First Nations staff?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Any group that works with Family and Children's Services would receive, as part of its mandate, the direction that they have to be sensitive to the needs of First Nations communities in this territory, and I believe that probably a contractor who works with us would make that effort.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that that is being done, but I've also heard concerns about the lack of First Nations programming at these group homes.

Can the minister tell us if he is aware of why this type of programming is lacking, and why connections are not being nurtured between the youth and First Nations role models, such as elders and First Nation leaders, and what is the minister going to do to improve the situation?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I can look into the degree of training that the individuals in this case do receive, and if there are some shortcomings, we can see what we can do to address them.

Question re: Non-government organizations, funding for

Mrs. Edelman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I once again have questions for the Minister of Health and Social Services.

Now, if there is a substantial change to a contribution agreement with an NGO, it has to come back to the House at the next possible opportunity to be re-examined. These agreements come back to the House to ensure the public purse is being spent wisely.

Is that the minister's understanding of the process?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Yes, Mr. Speaker. When we enter into an agreement with an NGO, they agree to deliver a service for us, and we in turn have expectations of them. If, for example, the NGO was not fulfilling the substantive portion of that agreement, then yes, we would have to review it. However, I would emphasize that we are talking about substantive portions. From time to time, an NGO will have changes, perhaps in staff. They will have changes perhaps in some deliveries. If they aren't substantive, then I wouldn't see any need for them to come back to this House in terms of contribution agreements.

Mrs. Edelman: There have been some substantial changes to an $800,000 contribution agreement that the government has with Northern Network of Services. Gibbs Groups Homes has taken over the operations and management of this agreement for some reason. Northern Network of Services was a non-profit society run by a board of directors. This service is now being provided by a for-profit business - Gibbs Group Homes.

Does the minister agree that this substantial change warrants taking another look at the contribution agreement in this Legislature at the earliest opportunity?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I think the member may have some misinformation there. The initiative to change that arose out of some difficulties within NNS in terms of staffing and in terms of the loss, I believe, of their director. There were some subsequent staffing difficulties. I should emphasize that the board actively sought out Gibbs Group Homes to fulfill their mandate for delivery of services in this regard. Quite clearly, if they actively pursued this option, there must have been some reasons why they felt comfortable with Gibbs Group Homes following this.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, Gibbs Group Homes has been providing this service, for some reason, since this summer. Gibbs Group Homes is a for-profit business, and when they bid on the group home contracts, it goes out to public tender. Why were no other businesses given a chance to bid on the provision of these services, because we are talking about $800,000 of taxpayers' money?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again, this was a decision by the board. The board actively sought someone who could deliver the service and that's what they followed through on.

Question re: Old Crow, winter road

Mr. Jenkins: My question today is for the Minister of Renewable Resources. It is concerning the winter road to Old Crow.

Last Thursday, the Minister of Government Services indicated in this House that the Government of Yukon was going to go it alone and build its own winter road to Old Crow, separate and apart from the winter road Northern Cross is planning to build through part of this area. I would like the minister to explain, from the perspective of protecting the environment, if he believes that it is better to have two winter roads constructed in this environmentally sensitive area or just one, where it can be jointly shared.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I am speaking as the Minister of Government Services in this case.

Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit on this question of the second road. The determination was made on the decision to build our own road, so to speak, for a variety of reasons. Some of them had to do with the staging area of Eagle Plains. We felt that that was a better place and would provide more benefit for the area around Eagle Plains. As well, there were some substantial problems with the terrain that would be necessitated by, in a sense, jumping off the Northern Cross road, and that's completely separate from any of the other issues, but there were substantial difficulties with that terrain.

C&TS engineers did considerable consultation, and they gave us the route that they felt was best. I have a map here, if that would be of any help to the member.

Mr. Jenkins: It's interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that we now have an entirely new story from the Minister of Government Services, speaking on behalf of the Minister of the Environment, to whom the question was directed.

The issue is that a lot of this road going into the same area can be cost shared between Northern Cross and the Government of Yukon. There's a cost savings to both parties. There is an additional environmental -

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Jenkins: There's an additional environmental saving in that two roads do not have to be constructed which, for about 16 to 20 kilometres, will parallel each other into the same area, and the Minister of Government Services, last week, indicated that Northern Cross had made no formal approach to the Government of the Yukon to share the construction of a joint road. But I'd like to ask the Minister of the Environment - the Minister of Renewable Resources - if, in the interest of protecting the environment, he would be prepared to approach Northern Cross about sharing the construction of the winter road to Old Crow? Will the Minister do that? Has there been any formal request made, or any discussion, with Northern Cross?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker. I feel I have to respond to some of the absurdities that were just mentioned.

There were a variety of reasons why this route was selected, not the least of which were terrain issues. The nature of the roads are very different. The road that's being proposed to Old Crow is a road that is essentially a single lane, one direction only. The road for Northern Cross is a road of some 18 kilometres.

Mr. Phillips: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Point of order

Speaker: Point of order has been called.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Speaker, the question was an environmental question to the Minister of the Environment. We now have the Minister of Health answering, giving the environmental answer. Is it because the Minister of the Environment doesn't have an answer or doesn't know what's going on? Could we have the appropriate minister answer the question, Mr. Speaker?

Hon. Mr. Harding: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Speaker: The hon. Mr. Harding, on the point of order.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Government Services is responding to an issue that pertains to the Government Services jurisdiction. It is not in the opposition's prerogative to direct which representative of the government will respond to the questions they put to the government.

Speaker's ruling

Speaker: There is no point of order. It is Cabinet's choice. Continue, Minister of Government Services.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: The Member for Klondike made reference to cost savings. The Northern Cross road really only represents about 18 kilometres. The savings on that would have been extremely modest, and any savings would be offset by increased distance to the staging area, Eagle Plains. As well, they anticipated considerable extra costs in terms of the difficulty of the terrain going off from Northern Cross, and that was based upon some engineering studies from C&TS who flew over the route and chose the easiest and least expensive route for this road.

Mr. Jenkins: Mr. Speaker, the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation has indicated that it plans to appeal the court decision concerning the land use permit granted by DIAND allowing Northern Cross to reopen some old oil wells near Eagle Plains because of environmental concerns. I'd like to know if the Department of Renewable Resources is also opposed to Northern Cross's applications for environmental reasons and, if not, will the department recommend one joint winter road to Old Crow, rather than two into that area that can be jointly shared? This is for the minister responsible for Renewable Resources.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again I'll exercise that prerogative.

With regard to both of the roads in question, I should remind the Member for Klondike - although he's perhaps not following the press quite as avidly as the rest of us are - that there has been considerable opposition to this on behalf of Vuntut Gwitchin. As a matter of fact, one of our concerns was the necessity to accomplish this. It now appears that the Vuntut Gwitchin will exercise some legal rights in trying to appeal to a higher court. That would delay this project even further.

My concern, and I know the concern of my colleague the Minister of Education, is that we get this project underway, that the school be completed so the children can be accommodated. Certainly the community of Old Crow has given us strong support in trying to accomplish that, and they have indicated that as far as a road that we would be looking at and they would be satisfied with, they have no opposition to that. However, it is apparent that they do have some concerns with the Northern Cross road.

Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will proceed with Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BILLS

Bill No. 23: Second Reading

Clerk: Second reading, Bill No. 23, standing in the name of the hon. Ms. Moorcroft.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I move that Bill No. 23, entitled Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act, be now read a second time.

Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Minister of Justice that Bill No. 23, entitled Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act, be now read a second time.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Speaker, with this act, our government seeks to provide members of the public with new opportunities to act in ways to prevent crime and enhance victim services.

When criminal activity reaches new levels and we are uncertain when or where we will be victimized, our homes broken into, our property stolen, our children violated or our own person assaulted, people feel that the justice system is left largely in the hands of experts. There is almost a sense that, to a very great extent, it is not the justice system of the ordinary citizen any longer.

What the crime prevention and victim services trust fund will do is fund initiatives that are inspired by the needs and ideas of organizations and communities in the Yukon.

The justice system in the Yukon is being called upon to resolve an expanding number of disputes and deal with a wide range of complex issues. The Yukon, like all areas of Canada, is hearing more public complaints about the justice system. From Dawson, I hear that a curfew bylaw is essential to stop youth crime. In Whitehorse, at city council and at other public meetings, there are demands that the people of the city be protected.

The justice system is expected to provide safety and security in homes, on the streets and in workplaces. There is dissatisfaction with the reaction of the system when vandals deface property, steal money and burn vehicles, seemingly without any consequences.

In general, public satisfaction with the justice system has decreased. Statistical evidence of the decrease in certain crimes does not convince a skeptical Yukoner. People everywhere are asking pointed questions about Canada's justice system. On one hand, the system is expected to toughen its treatment of young offenders; on the other hand, the taxpayer does not want to pay for more prisons. There are conflicting demands on the justice system: for conviction, for defence, for incarceration and for cheaper justice.

We have accomplished a great deal in a short period of time, but we have much more to accomplish to restore faith in the system. This fund will help accomplish that.

The Yukon justice system must change the way it does business to accommodate First Nations' administration of justice. We are developing more flexible innovative approaches to preventing crime.

As I mentioned earlier, we are looking at ways to attack the root causes and the social indicators of crime. We need to stop crimes before they occur and reduce the impact of crime on victims.

By shifting our emphasis to prevention and community-based initiatives made possible by this fund, we will avoid increasing the bureaucracy and the cost of justice and encourage community involvement in what was once a closed system.

We are working closely with the federal and municipal governments, with First Nations, and with other departments of the Yukon government to solve problems that often begin as health, education or employment issues. By reviewing justice programs and services, setting goals and objectives that we can meet, justice can serve victims more effectively with less cost to all of us.

We want to give people a voice on what the crime prevention and victim services trust fund can do, and we want to involve the public in justice matters so that victims of crime, the community and justice professionals will be able to direct resources from this fund to find a better way of doing justice in the Yukon. We need to not just seek ways of building healthier communities, but create a healthier justice system that works for people.

I want the justice system to be restorative. We need to share the responsibilities for the ways we bring justice to the community. Together we must build a citizen-centred, preventive justice system. Our justice system should be responsive to the needs of Yukoners. The public must understand the law and the system. We must therefore be transparent in our actions and make sure that we teach and inform people about law and justice. That is one way of creating a justice system that they can respect.

When I am approached by Yukoners, it's often to express their ideas and comments surrounding the issue of crime prevention. An unfortunate reality of these times is the increasing incidence of violent crime in our society and, more particularly, crimes against women and children. We've all read the articles in the newspapers and watched the 6:00 news. It's impossible to do so without being faced with reports of theft, vandalism and often brutal acts of violence. These reports come from all over the world, and the fact remains that some of them originate here in the Yukon.

Along with the increasing level of crime in our society, there is a proportionate demand upon governments to do something about it. It is right that governments take leadership in this area. In the Yukon, we take pride in living in a place where we can raise our families and live our lives in an environment of safety without the threat of violence.

Traditionally, low rates of crime contributes to the quality of life we enjoy in this territory. Yukoners want government to develop programs designed to address the causes of crime and to promote its prevention. They also want government to help victims of crime. Yukoners want to continue to live in safe, healthy communities, and do not want to become victims of criminal activity.

To date, this government has developed initiatives aimed at creating safer communities through a variety of crime prevention programs. These include administrative sanctions for people who are driving while impaired or without a valid licence. We've seen a number of communities working to increase community policing projects. We have been actively supporting justice initiatives in Carcross, Watson Lake and Dawson City that include family group conferencing, diversion programs and community justice committees. We have seen school councils and individual school administrations working to promote safer schools and ensure that our children are enjoying an environment of respect and safety when they go off to school.

This budget year, we increased resources to the Department of Justice's victim services branch, and we're continuing to support private programs offering counselling to victims of crime.

While this government remains committed to helping victims of crime and family violence by providing resources to help them deal with the effects of being victimized, we also want to take action to prevent crime by attacking its root causes. These lie in violent homes, in school dropout rates, in drug and alcohol dependency, in lack of opportunities and the diminishment of hope. They lie in fear and misunderstanding.

The challenge for government is to develop creative ways to fund projects and programs directed at crime prevention and victim services, particularly when the development of new programs costs money and available dollars are shrinking. This new legislation provides the way to use existing resources to help support Yukon victims in regaining control over their own lives and to provide services designed to reduce the incidence of crime.

The Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act establishes a trust fund and provides a framework for its administration. The trust will be funded primarily through fines imposed under territorial legislation and, with the cooperation of the federal government, fines collected under the Criminal Code of Canada. Victim surcharges imposed on these fines will also go into the trust fund, along with existing monies held in trust under the Victim Services Act.

The interest earned on the court trust account, in addition to the revenue received by the government from the slot machine management agreement with the Klondike Visitors Association, will also be deferred into the trust. Together, these resources will provide an opening balance of approximately $1,086,000.

Under the trust management principles, 10 percent, or $108,000, can be used in the first year. That's $108,000 that's available for crime prevention and victim services without spending a single extra tax dollar.

In consultation with the public on the Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act, First Nations brought attention to the fact that violence means abuse, whether physical abuse, sexual abuse, mental abuse, alcohol and drug abuse. First Nations communities and the Yukon government have to look for ways to change abusive behaviour and to deal with the attitudes and values that lie behind abusive behaviour.

Crisis intervention and victim support is one phase of our responses to these types of crime.

Of great importance, in order to change attitudes in Yukon's society, is to begin with our youth. Children are unable to respect other people and other people's property if they do not learn self-respect. In our school system, we're working to improve all students' knowledge of the cultural differences in Yukon communities. Developing locally based curriculum that informs all students about First Nations heritage and traditions are ways to enhance respect for others. This is a vital part of building safe, healthy communities, with reduced incidence of crime.

Mr. Speaker, we need to live in a society where all people have the right to live without violence and the threat of violence, and we all have a personal responsibility to try to bring that about in our own lives and in the organizations that we work with.

The violence and the threat of violence that goes on in Yukon communities today maintains disadvantages, particularly for women and children.

The Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act is only one piece of how our government plans to take action on crime. The victims of family violence act will be another important legislative initiative to help protect family members who face violence.

The cost of violence against women and children can be measured in financial terms, as well as in the abuse and intimidation, and often murder, that occurs as a result of this violence.

A strong coordinated approach based on what works with and for communities is needed to counter violence in our community. Programs and services have to be accessible and appropriate to diverse needs, taking into account linguistic, cultural and geographic diversity.

Physical and social isolation is often a factor for women and children, and we need again to help change the attitudes and values and abusive behaviours.

Through the victim services component of this trust fund, we need to have the goals of providing effective supports for women and their children who are victims of violence. We need to look at ways of preventing violence through education and awareness.

Prevention must be built on strong communities, on partnerships, on local solutions, accessible programs and respect for choice. Prevention must be seen as long-term problem solving with necessary short-term measures such as crisis intervention.

Examples of prevention and education that we can look at include school-based services for children who have witnessed violence, professional development for teachers, supports to public education, and prevention initiatives in local communities and the workplace. We can support training on violence prevention issues for police, for Crown attorneys, for probation, parole and correctional officers, and health, education and social service professionals. We can support multi-media public education campaigns and activities promoting healthy and balanced relationships between boys and girls.

Examples of crisis response services that can help ensure safety and support for victims include crisis lines, emergency shelter and transportation, medical treatment, counselling and support to help deal with trauma and to increase women's safety and self-reliance, and follow-up supports for women and their children.

I think, Mr. Speaker, that you are aware of the increasing numbers of volunteers who are working both with the police to provide immediate support to victims and with community agencies on more systemic approaches.

Strengthening the way that the justice system responds is another key strategy to use. We need safeguards for women and their children who are in danger, as well as effective and accountable treatment programs for abusive men, and support for victims of violence in the justice system.

Victim witness support in court is something that we have offered through our Department of Justice and that is expending. Emergency legal aid for women victims of abuse, cultural language assistance, counselling programs for abusive men, and victim crisis assistance and referrals are both existing and new types of programs that we can look to the community to come forward with applications for support in this trust fund.

As the trust fund builds, it's expected to reach its threshold of $2 million by the sixth year of operation. The interest earned on this threshold will result then in an estimated $200,000 available for expenditure in each fiscal year. The fund will be administered by a board of trustees composed of representatives from First Nations organizations, women's groups, the RCMP and members of the public service. The trustees will be responsible for ensuring the funds are used for community-based projects aimed at both crime prevention and victim services.

These types of programs, while not limited to, could include leadership projects, community policing, public awareness campaigns on crime prevention, counselling services for victims of crime, and training programs dealing with the dynamics of family violence and spousal assault for victims, offenders and victim services professionals.

The Yukon public wants programs that are designed to stop crimes from escalating. All Yukon people will be well served by crime prevention programs that are initiated locally. We've seen examples of locally initiated programs in the youth leadership projects held this summer in Watson Lake, Ross River and Kwanlin Dun. We've seen diversion programs and community justice committees underway in neighbourhoods and villages and hamlets and towns around the territory. We're continuing to implement Keeping Kids Safe programs. We've also seen increased funding for victim services and coordination of community notification protocol.

I think that these are the types of programs that the community wants to see supported, and I think that the Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act will help all Yukoners to participate in crime prevention initiatives that can help improve public confidence in the justice system by creating an important new way of providing money to communities and groups for the programs they believe will help to reduce crime.

These programs will help to ensure that all Yukoners enjoy the right to live without violence or the threat of violence in their homes, in their schools, in their workplaces and in their community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to speak for a long time on this act, but there are some points that I would like to put on the record.

The first point is that I am pleased to see the minister has brought this particular piece of legislation forward to the House and, again, because it seems that it is starting to become a bit of a habit of the side opposite. Many of the initiatives that we are seeing the NDP government do are initiatives that were well underway under the Yukon Party government. In fact, we were even criticized when they were on the side opposite. In fact, this one was well underway and in fact, when I look how the bill is designed, it has the same briefing that I received from the department - the various initiatives and how it was going to operate and where it was going to come from. The work was all done, but it took a year to get here.

I am pleased that it is here. In fact, if I can remind members to think back to a year ago in September, we talked about starting a community protection act. Now, they did change the name of the act a little bit. They are not calling it a community protection act. They are calling it a Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act. Our community protection act would create a crime prevention and victim services trust fund. Sound familiar?

The trust would be established by pooling several sources of revenue which are available from the Department of Justice, outside the government's general revenues, so as not to be a drain on the tax revenue or require increases in existing budgets. The revenue would be for implementing or creating safer communities initiatives - as we heard in the announcements today - implementing recommendations made by the Talking About Crime Committee - initiatives that we heard today as well - and to provide grants to groups and individuals in the community to fund locally initiated crime prevention programs and victim services.

I am pleased to see that the minister is carrying forward on an initiative that we started when we were in government and will have my support in that regard.

I do have some questions about it and some other concerns regarding the justice system that I do want to talk about. This particular program, this bill, is called the Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act. One would be led to believe that this particular bill is going to be of some assistance, some help to the victim.

I read the bill and I listened to the minister today talk about the initiatives that the minister is going to carry out, and there is one area I think that is obviously missing. Although I don't have any magic solutions for it, I would like to hear the minister's views on this after I sit down and she has a chance to respond to us, and that is that the minister talked about people, more and more across this country, being disgruntled and upset and frustrated with our justice system. What I want to talk about, Mr. Speaker, today is the victims of the justice system and what we are doing to the victims of the justice system.

The minister said that she didn't want Yukoners to become victims of criminal activity, and I would agree with that 100 percent. But I don't want to see victims being revictimized by the justice system, and that's what we are seeing across this country - not just in the Yukon but all across this country. And I know that the new Justice minister has been to Justice ministers conferences and I know that that's a topic of discussion of every Justice minister across the country. What I'm talking about, Mr. Speaker, are decisions that are made by the justice system - in many cases, final decisions that are made by the judiciary - that revictimize the victims. Statements that I think, in some cases, are totally insensitive to the victims who are involved.

Let me give you a few examples, and I'll start first with one that made my blood boil last week, Mr. Speaker, and that's about a young man in Ontario. His name is Martin Kruze. Martin Kruze was a young, 13-year-old hockey player who went to Maple Leaf Gardens to try and access some of the facilities there and play with many of the young boys that were there. And there was a fellow there, an equipment manager, assistant manager of the Gardens, a guy called Mr. Stuckless. He came into contact with hundreds of boys from 1969 to 1988. It's now been revealed, by way of a court case, that many of these boys were abused by Mr. Stuckless.

Mr. Speaker, several weeks ago, a decision was rendered in the case and Mr. Stuckless was found guilty of abuse - hundreds of cases of abuse - and when the decision was rendered, the judge gave him two years less a day. For years, he had been abusing these young boys and using his authority, and this guy got two years less a day.

The judge said that the reason he gave him that little time is that he had shown remorse. Well, sorry, Mr. Speaker, but that's not good enough. That's not good enough.

The public was outraged. But even worse than that, last week, the ultimate price was paid by Martin Kruze. This young man who had been abused and came forward as the lead person to expose this reprobate for the terrible and violent actions he had committed on these young kids, committed suicide. In the end, as his family said, we feel that justice was not served and, unfortunately, Martin paid the biggest price of all with his own life.

That is probably a pretty high profile case for Canadians and Yukoners to look at, but we have some here at home that are frustrating and upsetting the general public. The Klassen case. Now, I understand that people are still frustrated with what happened there and failed to understand what happened and some of the comments that were made.

A case I raised with the local judiciary - the Gingell case - about the victims being left out of the equation and my efforts to offer the judiciary an avenue for possible further training on the concern or the rights of victims that they could look at, which was nothing to do with the Gingell case. I didn't ask anybody to change a thing, but just said that, in the future, the victim should be considered. More recently - and it's under appeal, so I won't mention an awful lot about the case - but it was a gang rape case, where the sentence was rendered and the reasons for a lower sentence was that it would be better if the individuals serve their time in an institution where cultural values were more paramount. Well, I think if you asked the individual who was gang raped whether cultural values were of any importance at all to those three men at the time, she would tell you that they were not. Again, the public was outraged.

Mr. Speaker, I guess people in our justice system - lawyers, judges, Crown attorneys - and everybody have to realize that these are serious crimes, and people want them treated seriously. There were comments made in this rape case and in other rape cases - the one in Montreal comes to mind - that they didn't use any violent weapons, or it wasn't a really violent rape.

Well, Mr. Speaker, wake up. Wake up, justice system. Rape is a violent act whether they use a weapon or anything else, and to say otherwise for any reason whatsoever is outrageous, and that's why the people are mad, and that's why the people are frustrated with this system of ours. It appears not to be working.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear from this Justice minister how we in the Yukon can change that. What can we do to change our laws. Some of our judges have said that we shouldn't interfere with the justice system by talking to justices or even suggesting that things should improve. We have the right to change the laws, so what I would like to know from this Justice minister - because I know she feels similarly as I do about some of these cases - is how we can change the laws. What message can we send there - a clear message so there's no wavering from doing the right thing - so that some of these statements that are made, which revictimize the victim by our own justice system, stop, so that if someone makes these decisions, they are held responsible for their actions, because there seems to be no responsibility by anybody? They can say whatever they want. We get angry. We get upset, but no one does anything. In this Legislature and in other legislatures across this country, we make the laws.

So, I challenge every member in this House to think about that, to think about how we can change the law so that these kinds of things - the revictimizing of these victims - don't happen any more.

Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of questions I have about the bill we have in front of us. The minister talks about the interest, I believe, of this bill that's going to be used for this victim trust fund. The minister talked about it being a $2 million fund over a period of years. Nobody's getting very much interest on their money right now with the interest rates the way they are. I just wonder if the minister has some idea, possibly over the next two, three or four years, what kind of dollar value we will see, Mr. Speaker, so we can get some idea of where this money will be used and how much money there will be there to use. I think it's a good idea. Like I said, it was a Yukon Party initiative, and I support the initiative, but I would like to know how much is going to be generated.

Mr. Speaker, the other question I have is in relation to some of the areas where we're going to get the money. One of them is interest received by the Government of the Yukon which is not required to be paid out to any beneficiary. Maybe the minister could tell us what that dollar amount amounts to on an annual basis, or regular basis. Fines paid into the court - I can't recall, but I thought that money that was paid into the court, Mr. Speaker, went into the general revenue fund and was used in the Department of Justice. Now, is that the case, or was the money put into a special trust fund, like other monies here were, and not actually spent? Because it does raise some interesting questions.

The other area that I would like to ask the minister about is the money received by the Government of the Yukon from the Klondike Visitors Association. I would imagine that that would be the taxes that would be paid by the Klondike Visitors Association for the gambling that goes on in Gertie's, and I think it varies from $180,000 to $300,000 a year, from year to year.

I guess what I'm concerned about is, of course, the fact that it is kind of a dangerous precedent to be earmarking revenue generated from any fund, and earmarking it for a specific case. It's not done very often, because usually the money just flows right into general revenues, and then ministers work and squabble and fight and try and keep enough money for their own departments to keep them operating. So this means that if there's any money coming out of general revenues, or being decreased in general revenues, and being earmarked for a certain program, that's kind of a dangerous precedent, and I'd like to know if that's the case.

I would be increasingly concerned if, in fact, the government, at the present time - I know the Government Leader was running around the territory crying poverty - if the budget comes out next spring and $300,000 that was gathered from the Klondike Visitors Association, through mainly tourism revenues, we saw a $300,000 reduction in the Tourism budget.

It would almost look like it was generated by tourism and was taken from tourism, so I think that's the concern you get into. I mean, some would argue that if you're going to start earmarking money for specific projects from specific revenues, you would say that the money raised from tourists should go to the Tourism department as opposed to any private practice, and make an argument for that - that the tourist paid the money and the taxes were collected, so maybe we should do a Canadian or European promotional campaign with that money to get more tourists here to spend more money. That would be an argument one could make.

So I would like to know from the minister if that, in fact, is the case, and how much of this money is virtually just sitting there in trust funds already and maybe isn't in the general revenue fund. I don't have any problem with that money that's sitting there and in fact is really doing nothing. It should be put to work. At least, the interest from it should be put to work.

I was reading the guidelines for the purposes of the trust and they are rather broad, but from listening to the comments today of the minister with respect to this particular program, the minister talked about youth crime prevention and talked about three or four different programs that the minister's government is now carrying on, but noticeably absent was any mention of the success of YES again. It's quite interesting that it seems to get missed when this government speaks. They talked about their new youth initiatives and, like I said in a press release about a week ago, it's almost like if it's not their idea, it's not a good idea. I don't know whether it was just an oversight of the minister not to mention YES, because I know they have given YES some funding. Maybe, they either don't think that YES is doing a very good job so that's why they don't mention it and that's why they're not funding it, or - I don't know. I just don't understand the rationale. I listened to CKRW Radio about a week-and-a-half ago and the Government Leader was on there just before the House started and he was talking about all the positive things his government was going to do and one of the initiatives he talked about was that we believe in fighting youth crime and crime prevention and we want the programs driven by the youth. YES is a youth-driven program. After listening to the minister today and listening to the Government Leader the other day and even listening to the Minister of Health today, YES meets all the criteria but it seems that the Minister of Health wants the YES people to come on their hands and knees and grovel to get any money.

I think that's too bad, because we heard from some of the youth from YES and some of the supervisors on the radio the other day talking about the kids that are now out there. Some of them are actually committing crimes - property crimes - because they lost their resource centre and because they lost the direction and the things they do and a place to go and discussions, and that kind of thing. I see the Minister of Health and Social Services shaking his head, but I wish he could get by the politics of it and would realize that the funding of a resource centre for youth would be a useful thing to do.

The minister said that his hands are tied. Who is running the government? Who tied the minister's hands? I thought that the minister made policy and the minister gave direction and the minister asked his department to carry out these initiatives. I read the NDP election platform - A Better Way - and it talks about working with youth and youth-driven programs. That is what YES is.

The minister keeps meeting with YES. We have heard all kinds of reasons why he couldn't fund YES. First of all, there isn't a program slot he could put them into. The minister can make a program slot. The minister can ask his department to develop an initiative that would deal with the kinds of things that YES is doing and maybe ask YES to improve on some things and work a little harder on others, but at least examine what they're doing.

Now, if the minister has done some of that already and determined that he doesn't think they are doing a very good job, he should just say so. He should just say it; he shouldn't beat around the bush and make them come to his office door week after week after week and grovel and plead to the minister to help them out.

In the election, they said this was the kind of thing they were going to do, and they should do it. It shouldn't be just because it was a federal Liberal idea that they don't want to go ahead with it. I condemned the federal Liberals, as well, for starting a pilot project, actually, and not following through with a good idea, but that's the crazy nature of these pilot projects that the feds have done for years. They start one pilot project after the other and it doesn't matter if they're good or bad or whatever. Then they just start another one afterwards; very few of them actually continue on. I think some of them have proven successful and some of them have proven to be a failure, but I think that any government, whether it be territorial or federal, that starts a project, should keep in mind that if the project is successful, there will be continuous funding.

If the project fails, then they might try another way of solving the problem.

Mr. Speaker, like I said when I started here today, I am supportive of this Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act in principle. I think the purposes of the trust are rather open-ended and maybe they have to be in the justice system because there are all kinds of different ways to institute crime prevention programs.

The board of trustees that they are going to set up seems to be a board made up of people who represent a special-interest group of one kind or another. Two persons are from the public service. One person is from Health and Social Services, so, that makes three government members. Two were recommended by the Minister of Justice and one person has been nominated from the Yukon Council of First Nations, so First Nations will be represented on the committee and I think that is a positive move. One person has been recommended by the Minister of Justice and one person has been nominated by organizations concerned with women's equality issues and problems facing women in the Yukon.

What about the rest of us? What about the rest of the Yukoners out there? Are the government bureaucrats the only ones representing us? There are women's issues. I think that is an important priority. I would have liked to see possibly two or three people recommended by the Minister of Justice from among Yukoners. If the minister chooses to appoint more women to that position and more women facing equality issues, I do not have a problem with that.

In crime prevention you want to involve people other than those who are all wrapped up in the system and that is part of the problem. You want community-driven initiatives. You want people who understand what is going on in the community. I think we should be looking at putting people on that committee from the communities, possibly three people from the general public, one rural, one urban.

Like I said, I do not have a problem with the minister choosing someone who has concerns about women's issues, but I can tell the minister that, as well as some of the more serious crimes, we are also talking about a lot of the property-related crimes and they do affect everybody.

And so I'd ask the minister to consider an amendment in that section to allow for possibly two more people from the general public who would be appointed, and they could be citizens, I suppose, that were involved in crime prevention in the community already and had some background and knowledge of the community activities that are taking place.

So with that, Mr. Speaker, I'll leave it at that.

As I said, I would hope that the minister will rise today in response to my questions about the other issue regarding victims. I think one that is just as serious - not necessarily more serious but just serious - and that is the revictimizing of the victims in the justice system itself and how we deal with and address that issue. I would hope the minister would address it, because I'm not going to let it go. I'm going to be raising the question time and time again in the House, and I am searching for solutions to that, and like I said, I would challenge all members of this House to come forward with suggestions and ideas about how we could make the justice system more accountable and make sure that we not only assist and give support to the victims of crime when they have been victimized, but we don't deliberately revictimize them, and I think that we should be conscious of that.

And again, I commend the minister for bringing this particular piece of legislation forward. I would hope the minister would have some answers for me on the funding questions when she rises here today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cable:

Both in the ministerial statement today and in the minister's preamble in the second reading, she has spoken about community involvement and how community involvement is necessary. She's also alluded to the fact, which I believe is her position, that crime prevention is more important than punishment. Now, those are what I think we can safely say are self-evident truths, but we need to be stating them over and over so that people will hear them and hear the underlying message.

Now, I had occasion when I was out visiting my son in Drayton Valley a few weeks ago to pick up a newspaper, and there was a letter from an RCM policeman - I guess it was a weekly column - where he made a very eloquent case for community involvement in the crime prevention area, indicating that the police themselves can't be counted on simply to be the only lever for catching criminals and preventing crime.

The gentleman, the policeman, couldn't have been more accurate. Community involvement eventually is the only way that we can prevent crime. Secondly, when people are frustrated by the system and what they perceive as its shortcomings, they think that punishment is not reflecting the crime, and punishment becomes a preoccupation. I think that's very much the case in the Yukon at the moment and it's particularly relevant to the mindless crime that we have been witnessing over the past two years - mindless vandalism - and people want to strike back because they feel helpless. I think it's very important that governments at this time and justice ministers and people in the crime prevention business calm people down and encourage them to focus on the causes of crime more than the punishment.

Last year, I had occasion to ask one of the researchers that the then three-person Liberal caucus had to go over all the crime initiatives in the territory, and I was amazed at the number of crime initiatives. There were acronyms I'd never heard before and bodies floating around out there doing things. I was very happy that there were that many people involved with these crime initiatives, but it did bring to mind, and this is reinforced by what is going on both in this bill and in the ministerial statement that was given today, the many, many initiatives.

There appears, on the surface anyway, to be a need for integration of what's going on. There needs to be an integration of the Justice department - what I would assume would be the lead, at least in crime punishment - with other government departments, and there needs to be an integration of the initiatives as between the various public bodies and the various public bodies with the government. I don't see that publicly, and it may simply be because I'm not knowledgeable as to what's going on, but there needs to be an overall coordination of efforts if we are to be more successful, particularly in preventing crime.

It would be useful to hear, when the minister is on in the committee report, the present status of the Crime Prevention Council and what's going on and whether that's a suitable coordinating body.

I'd also like to find out, and I put this question to the minister after her ministerial statement, whether or not there is an articulated lead agency in the government and, if so, who is it? What is the umbrella that is coordinating all these efforts within the government?

The minister has indicated that it's the Department of Justice. I'm pleased to hear that and perhaps we can explore that a little more in Committee.

Now, last December, the minister said, when we were talking about crime initiatives, "I'm therefore pleased to announce that, in the fall legislative session, I will be introducing a bill to create a crime prevention and victim services trust fund," which she, of course, has just done. "This trust fund will allow community-based groups..." There's a bit of noise coming out of Faro here, for the moment.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Cable: "This trust fund will allow community-based groups to apply for funding for locally developed programs that will prevent crime and provide services to victims. The criteria that we will be developing for guiding how the trust will be expended will focus on encouraging projects designed to reduce violence against women and children."

Now I gather there's a set of guidelines floating around. I haven't seen them. What I would like to know - and we can talk about this in the committee report - is how these guidelines are going to be given to this trust, and whether there's going to be any statutory basis for them. I don't see any statutory basis, just flipping through the act, and it appears that the regulatory power is simply administrative in nature. I would assume that guidelines will change, from time to time, so it'd be useful to hear from the minister how she is going to give these criteria to the trust.

As the official opposition critic mentioned, it'd be useful to get the projections for the size of the trust over the years. The sources of revenue, as I read them, at least four of them, are variable in nature. The lottery money from the Klondike Visitors Association is variable, of course. The interest provided by the government as a consequence of money paid into court is variable. The fines paid into court are variable. Any money donated is variable, and the victim surcharges, of course, are variable. So the major sources of revenue, at least in numbers anyway, are based on random sources of revenue. I'd like to hear the minister's thinking on whether the principle behind the bill that there should be programs, and that there should be this group of trustees running these programs, and how that conflicts with what appears to be unpredictable sources of revenue.

I don't have anything more to say, other than that I do congratulate the minister for bringing the bill forward. It's one step of a many-faceted approach on a very serious social problem.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I'd just like to take some time to speak a little bit in support of the initiatives by the government to help address crime and help victims through Bill No. 23, the Crime Prevention and Victim Services Trust Act, but before I actually get into the substance of my comments, I would like to mention to the Member for Riverside, who questioned the cooperation between departments, that that is a process that has already begun under the leadership of the Minister of Justice, and our deputy ministers are meeting to discuss how we can approach crime from a crime prevention, from a concerted, congruent kind of approach and, as well, education is also being brought into it, because we see some areas where public - and I suppose civic education - can be integrated into this whole process. So the process has already begun.

There have been some meetings between those departments, and we've given our departments very specific direction that dealing with crime is not going to be "we're doing one thing, this department is doing another thing, and this department is doing something else." We see this as being a cross-departmental approach, and we believe that this is the best way to bear fruit.

Just on the whole question of crime, it is a very hot topic, and it's something that is not just simply confined to this territory, and, in fact, it is one of those issues that I think has become more and more a concern for individuals. Interestingly enough, even though violent crime statistics have dropped steadily over the last 30 years, there is a public perception that crime is rampant. I'm not really quite sure where that perception comes from. Perhaps it's the influence of television. Perhaps it's other media portrayals of towns and cities under attack. Perhaps it's the portrayal of sometimes very horrific kinds of crimes, and I just wonder if sometimes we don't do a bit of a transference. We see things on southern media and perhaps transfer those on to our own communities.

So, Mr. Speaker, I really can't address there is that huge perception, but I do know that there are many sincere and committed people in this territory who are concerned about crime, and they have reason to be.

In Whitehorse, much of that crime has revolved around the issue of youth, and as my department is responsible for youth when they come in contact with the police, I'd like to address this issue a little bit in relation to the act that we are discussing today.

Interestingly enough, analysis for crime statistics across Canada show that the peak ages for charges of non-violent offences, including break and enters and theft, are ages 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20. By contrast, the peak ages for persons being charged with crimes of violence are 29 and 30 years of age. Also, the involvement of persons over the age of 30 years in all crime gradually declines with age.

With regard to some of the statistical data with regard to young offenders, we have in this territory one of the highest rates of involvement with our youth population in the correctional system, both in probation and custody, and we have one of the highest rates of committal to custody in the country.

That, in itself, may appear very dire and it is not the best of news, but I think it needs to be balanced against the fact that the Yukon has one of the highest rates of reported crime and one of the highest rates of charging in the country. Interestingly enough, we share this distinction with two other small-population jurisdictions: the Northwest Territories and Prince Edward Island.

I suppose, in a sense, that is not necessarily bad news because what happens is people tend to report crime when they know and have more confidence in the police and those kinds of occurrences often take place in jurisdictions with small populations where the people feel comfortable and they have a knowledge sometimes of their own local police force.

Also, incidentally, because of the size of our population, we have one of the highest concentrations of police in the country compared to other larger jurisdictions. Basically, this fact, plus the likelihood that people know one another, means that more crimes get solved in smaller places.

But, then balanced against that, we have some other factors that influence us: the high rate of alcohol consumption and heavy, frequent drinking. We have serious illicit drug use problems in the Yukon, all of which can be correlated with crime rates.

Now, when we look at that, that appears to be overwhelmingly negative, but it is not. Family and children services now has two years of recidivism data for the young offenders alternative measures program and one year of data for the youth achievement centre.

Recidivism data for both programs compares very favourably with published recidivism rates in other similar client groups in Canada. The young offenders alternative measures program reports a 20-percent recidivism since 1996. Now, this is compared with 21 percent in the P.E.I. study and 22 percent in the Nova Scotia study.

The youth achievement centre reports an 18-percent recidivism rate for 1997 participants. We had some difficulty in finding cities with comparable Canadian programs. However, since the youth achievement centre serves very high-risk teens, many of whom have been in custody already, we tried to do a comparison with Ontario. We found that Ontario youth committed to custody have a 40-percent recidivism rate for open custody, and a 64-percent recidivism rate for secure custody, over a two-year period, which I suppose really brings into question some of the extreme measures that Ontario was looking at right now with some of their young people.

So, I think it's also important to point out that Yukon recidivism rates include both Criminal Code and territorial offences.

So those are, I guess, some groundwork that I'd like to sort of get in place before I move into some more substantive kinds of aspects.

We know that there are many theories about youth crime. The one that I hear very frequently is, "We're bored". Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I just can't buy the argument. As a former principal and teacher, I just can't picture otherwise happy, healthy kids - it's never been my experience - sitting around on the couch one evening saying, "Well, you know, gee, I'm bored; there's nothing good on TV, so maybe I'll go break into somebody's house." It doesn't happen like that. It really doesn't. Young people who have solid community and home backgrounds simply don't engage in crime for those kinds of reasons.

I personally believe that there are a number of factors that promote crime in youth. Boredom may be a minor factor, but I think it's way down the list when we start looking at some of the more insidious kinds of circumstances that affect a family and society.

At this point, I'm talking about the issues of poverty, the issues of lack of opportunity, and sometimes family politics. So I believe that crime and crime causes are multi-faceted.

It has been, I think, an article of faith that poverty can be correlated to crime very easily. It's been a fundamental understanding that, when poverty rises, so do incidences of crime. Now, fortunately, not all poor people turn to crime as a solution, or our society would be in far more difficult situations than what we are.

However, it does play an important role. If a child grows up in a home where the basic necessities of life are not available and where there's a lack of opportunity that inhibits the progress of that family, then crime may sometimes appear to be a viable outcome to that child.

Over the next few days, you're going to hear some things about the government's efforts to try and address poverty and to reach children who are at risk. One of those initiatives that I'm very pleased about is the school nutrition program, of which we're a major partner. This is a relatively simple, inexpensive, community-run and supported program that allows children to get the basic sustenance they need if they're hoping to benefit from education. I believe quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, that this program is going to pay off in a big way. I think if children have enough to eat they're able to concentrate on school work and that, in turn, will make them more involved in the kinds of things that go on in school and community. And I would like to commend those people who have been working with this. The school councils are our other partners in this program, and I suggest that this is one way that we are actually, in our own fashion, fighting youth crime. If kids stay in school and they get an education, they're less likely to be involved in criminal activities.

I think, however, we have to really begin to say that our children-at-risk initiative has to begin, Mr. Speaker, long before children get into school.

You're going to be hearing over the next few weeks some directions where the government is planning to identify children at risk and how to intervene. There was an article, I believe about two weeks ago, about a very innovative program that the State of Hawaii has done where they've tried to identify risk factors for children who are at risk of