Whitehorse, Yukon
Monday, December 1, 1997 - 1:30 p.m.
Speaker: I will now call this House to order.
We will proceed with prayers at this time.
Prayers
DAILY ROUTINE
Speaker: We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.
Are there any tributes?
TRIBUTES
World AIDS Day
Hon. Mr. Sloan: I rise today in recognition of the 10th annual World Aids Day and to pay special tribute to those nearly one million children in this world who suffer the physical and psychological consequences.
The theme for this year's World AIDS Day is children living in a world with AIDS. It reflects the fact that all children around the world are affected by AIDS, because it is a part of the world in which they live.
Children hear about AIDS all the time - on television, on posters, in school, talking to friends and others. Today, all children in the Yukon, just as children in Canada and the world, face a lifetime of risk of HIV infection. As more and more people become infected with the disease, more and more children will be spending time with other children and adults who are infected with the virus.
Last year alone, 400,000 children under the age of 15 contracted the human immunodeficiency virus. By the end of this year, it is estimated that a million children under the age of 15 will be living with HIV. It is estimated that more than 2 million HIV-infected children have been born to HIV-infected mothers since the beginning of the epidemic. In addition, hundreds of thousands of children have acquired the disease from blood transfusion or through sexual contact.
Because HIV quickly turns to AIDS in children, most of the three million children infected since the epidemic began have died. Today, we wear the red ribbon as a symbol of AIDS awareness, to remind ourselves and others of the need for support and commitment in fighting the battle against AIDS.
Mr. Speaker, today we remember especially the children, those already suffering and those who are at risk, but we also pause to think about the many adults who continue to fight the epidemic as well as those who are living with HIV.
While we can rejoice in the promising breakthroughs in treating HIV and AIDS, we must also mourn for those who have been infected. Remember those have died, and we must remember the children.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Jenkins: It is estimated that 8,500 new cases of HIV infection occur each day, with almost half of them being women and children. It is also estimated that 22.6 million people are infected with HIV worldwide and that, by the end of the decade, there will be more than 10 million children with AIDS. Of these, an estimated 5 million adults and 1.4 million children have died.
HIV's ever-increasing numbers are alarming. AIDS is a very serious problem that has affected millions. It has affected children, men and women from all walks of life and from all parts of the world. While treatments have been developed, a cure has yet to be established. On behalf of the Yukon Party caucus and office of the official opposition, we join members today in offering support to World AIDS Day and to those especially who are fighting the battle against this serious epidemic. We congratulate the federal government for its new national strategy to fight the AIDS epidemic that was unveiled this morning. The federal government intends to spend about $211 million over the next five years to address the prevention of HIV, search for new vaccines and drugs and continue the efforts to find a cure.
We are pleased to offer our support to this strategy and hope that support will be given to the Yukon and its initiative in the prevention of AIDS. By helping to raise awareness about AIDS and the lifetime consequences of AIDS through our schools and public awareness campaigns such as this, I believe that we, collectively, can make a difference.
Thank you.
Mrs. Edelman: I rise today on behalf of the Liberal caucus to also pay tribute to the children who suffer from AIDS.
The federal Liberal government has just recently committed to continuing funding for research on this plague on our people. This five-year $211 million commitment will not only benefit children who suffer from AIDS but the adults that suffer from the disease as well.
But, what most people don't realize is that this research money will also benefit those who suffer from cancer, in particular leukemia. That is because, while AIDS is an immune system deteriorating, leukemia is that exact opposite; it is an immune system gone wild. Work done in the field of our body's immune system will benefit all those who suffer from this cancer, as well as other diseases that affect the blood.
Hopefully, within our lifetime we'll have beaten AIDS and leukemia as well.
Speaker: Introduction of visitors?
INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS
Hon. Mr. Sloan: I would like to the opportunity to draw to the members' attentions the presence of the grade 10 ACES class, from the Wood Street annex of F.H. Collins School, under the leadership of their teacher, Jim Boyd.
Applause
Speaker: Are there any returns of documents for tabling?
TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS
Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, I have for tabling a response to the leader of the official opposition's question in regard to grizzly bears.
I also have for tabling a response to the Member for Riverside's questions regarding the abattoir. Also, I have for tabling the information package from Yukon Housing Corporation, which was distributed to the mobile home owners over the weekend.
Speaker: Are there any reports of committees?
Are there any petitions?
Are there any bills to be introduced?
Are there any notices of motions?
Are there any statements by ministers?
MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS
Youth employment strategy
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: In keeping with our government's commitment to create jobs and economic opportunities for Yukon people, I rise to inform the House that the territory is actively participating in the development of a national youth employment strategy, which was announced a few hours ago in Regina.
This government has already taken significant steps to help provide young people with skills and programs that will help them build a successful future. Youth Works is the most recent example.
I am pleased to note that this new national initiative will enhance the important work that we have started in the Yukon on behalf of young people.
It is significant to note that the rate of youth unemployment continues to be twice the general unemployment rate across Canada. This makes the need for such a comprehensive national youth employment strategy obvious.
The premiers of the provinces and the government leaders of both the NWT and the Yukon have consistently expressed concern about the high rate of unemployment among young people. This strategy is a direct result of that concern.
Mr. Speaker, the goals of the national youth employment strategy are to create opportunities for young people to develop knowledge and skills for work; to increase work opportunities for youth; to help young people respond to the changing nature of work; and, to address social and cultural barriers that prevent youth from working.
The strategy paper asks the federal government to form a new partnership with provinces and territories, to set priorities and to coordinate spending related to youth unemployment.
Like our own Youth Works program, Mr. Speaker, the national youth employment strategy focuses on young people between the ages of 15 and 24. It recognizes that some youth are at greater risk than others and that unemployment among Canada's aboriginal youth needs special attention.
This strategy calls for stronger partnerships among business, labour, schools, universities and colleges, youth, their parents, and communities. A key component is a collection of best practices from various jurisdictions, including concrete examples of successful provincial and territorial programming for young people.
The Yukon can learn a great deal by being involved with this strategy. We also have much to contribute. This government is working with a variety of community groups on projects such as cooperative education, Yukon secondary school apprenticeship program and the new Yukon Entrepreneurship Centre.
The anticipated outcome of the strategy include the following areas: improved access to locally relevant, timely labour market and career information; a higher number of secondary and post-secondary graduates; better connection between learning and work, by making training job-relevant; decreased youth unemployment; increased support for entrepreneurial activity; and, better access to work experience.
Mr. Speaker, by helping in the development of the national youth employment strategy, our government is expressing confidence that practical solutions to the current youth unemployment situation can be found by working with a variety of partners, both here in the Yukon and across Canada.
Thank you.
Mr. Phillips: On behalf of the Yukon Party caucus and the office of the official opposition, I am pleased to offer support to the Government of Yukon in its participation in the development of the national youth employment strategy.
Youth unemployment remains a serious problem in Canada and, with the Yukon rate sitting at about 16 percent, double the national average, without a doubt, our young people are having a difficult time. They are having a rough time finding their first job and are often under-employed and have seen their earnings drop, with few options for full-time work.
Young people are often recognized as being the key to our future and, so far, that future hasn't been looking too promising for our youth. For these reasons, we, on this side of the House, are encouraged by the work being done by our federal counterparts in the fellow provinces and territories, but there still is much more to be done.
In a recent report adopted by Canada premiers and territorial leaders, a number of findings were noted, and they include that the number of jobs for youth have dropped some 300,000 since 1990, despite several provincial youth retraining programs being in effect; there's also an overlap and duplication of youth programs, as many levels of government and community organizations are involved; that the provinces and territories should work with the federal government to improve job opportunities for aboriginal youth; and, the programs being implemented, so high school students can combine on-the-job training or trade apprenticeship programs with their high school education.
As well, there were requests were help in setting up youth entrepreneurship programs in each of the provinces and the territories. Perhaps the minister could provide a brief overview of progress, if any, regarding the above findings with respect to the Yukon.
The national youth employment strategy focuses on youth between ages of 15 and 24, and recognizes youth at risk, in particular. Problems associated with youth at risk are numerous and varied and are problems that must be addressed. These are the kinds of kids a lot of people are talking about: the troubled, violent kids, many of whom have been emotionally, physically, or mentally abused.
We on this side of the House believe the best way to help troubled youth is to get them involved in programs that give them life and communication skills and boost their self-esteem. I'm talking about programs such as YES, who have had to close their doors a result of this government's reluctance to recognize YES as being a worthwhile program, that works.
Contrary to this government's commitment to help youth at risk, this government has done little, if anything, to address the problems at hand. The minister spoke of Youth Works as a program that will help young people with skills and programs that will help them build a bright future. What about the 30 or some youth at risk who have nowhere to go but the streets, now that their safe place has been closed? I would ask the minister how Youth Works is supposed to serve our many youth at risk.
If the minister really cares about our youth, she would redirect some monies from Youth Works to YES. Those funds would have kept the YES program alive for almost three years.
In light of the government's broken promises, and lack of action in helping youth at risk, we are encouraged by the strategy that is before us today - the federal strategy that is before us today - and hope that the funding can be reinstated to YES, so that we can continue to keep our sick kids safe and off the street and provide them with a better future.
Thank you.
Ms. Duncan: Young people say, "No experience, no job; no job, no experience." It's the biggest barrier they face in getting career-related jobs. Young people also want one-stop shopping for information on jobs, careers, educational choices and government programs and services.
The Government of Canada's youth employment strategy is a very real start to answering these needs. It builds on some 250 federal initiatives already in place for young people and the commitments the government made to Canada's youth in the 1996 Speech from the Throne.
The youth employment strategy is an action plan that builds on the existing investment in young people of over $2 billion. It should be noted that it includes $315 million set aside in the 1996 budget for the creation of new youth employment opportunities over three years.
The federal government's approach is that the youth employment strategy will expand work experience opportunities through partnerships. Federal departments and agencies will work with different levels of government, First Nations communities, the private sector and community organizations to create opportunities for Canada's youth. The youth employment strategy will give young people easy, one-stop shop access to the information they need to take charge of their futures.
The minister said today that the strategy paper asks the federal government to form a new partnership with provinces and territories to set priorities and to coordinate spending related to youth employment. It appears that the Yukon government, the federal government and the provincial governments are working together on a key initiative.
I was especially heartened by the minister's comment: "A key component of these efforts is a collection of best practices from various jurisdictions, containing concrete examples of successful programming." It's useful, and a very positive, real example to set aside parties, jurisdictions and recognize good ideas from wherever they came and to make use of them. Our caucus supports efforts to ensure a brighter future for Canada's young people.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Perhaps I'll begin by responding to the comments from the Liberal Party and thank them for their support of this initiative. We do agree that a survey of the best practices in various provinces and territories can be helpful in looking at programs that might succeed elsewhere in the country, that could in the future succeed here. I also expect that some of our work in the territory might be helpful to other jurisdictions.
The comment from the Yukon Party was a little more negative in tone, and I do want to respond to some of the statements that were made. The Yukon government still continues to support youth, both for education and in social services. The youth investment fund serves youth at risk, and there have been and continue to be a number of projects funded that will help youth in the community through the youth investment fund.
As well, my colleague, the Minister of Health and Social Services, is working with the board of Youth Empowerment and Success to address its needs. I know he spoke last week with board members about their organizational needs.
The federal government pulled the funding from the Youth Empowerment and Success program. Nonetheless, Mr. Speaker, I want to make sure that the Member for Riverdale North is aware that we gave over $45,000 in three years to Youth Empowerment and Success. We have supported YES, and I think the member's comments are misplaced.
I hope that the national youth employment strategy will identify a number of ways that we can expand work experience for youth and that we can deal with the problem that the current youth unemployment situation poses for our young people because we do want to see them have a future.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Speaker: This then brings us to Question Period.
QUESTION PERIOD
Question re: Land claim negotiations status
Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Government Leader in his capacity as the minister responsible for land claims.
On Thursday, November 20, in Committee debate, I raised the issue of very little progress being made on the land claims front, largely because of the actions of this government in replacing the Yukon government's key land claim negotiators with imports from British Columbia, Mr. Speaker. The minister replied to me at that time saying that, "Land claims are going very, very well at this time," yet we heard over the weekend that Yukon First Nation chiefs believe the land claims are bogged down and going nowhere.
Can the minister tell this House whose interpretation of the land claims process is right?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Well, thank goodness for noon newscasts, Mr. Speaker, otherwise the opposition wouldn't have any information or be bringing anything new to the Legislature.
Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that the member's characterization of what the First Nation leadership was saying is accurate at all. Tensions are always higher when the negotiations are about to conclude. I was indicating last week, and I will indicate again today, that I believe that negotiations are progressing and I believe that we can have agreements this month or in January. Just as I said last week, I do believe that the atmosphere around the closing of the agreements is always somewhat more tense than it is at the beginning of the negotiations - that's somewhat natural - but I do believe that negotiations will conclude.
Mr. Ostashek: Well, Mr. Speaker, thank God for newscasts. Maybe we can get some facts, because we certainly can't get them from the members opposite.
In opposition, Mr. Speaker, the NDP severely criticized the Yukon Party government for its lack of progress on the land claims front. Yet, we completed three agreements - with the Ta'an, Little Salmon and the Selkirk First Nations - and virtually completed the fourth agreement, with the Tr'ondek Gwitchin.
A year has passed since this government has been elected, and elected on the campaign to fast-track the land claims process, yet no new agreements have been signed. Can the minister advise this House at this time how many land claims agreements he feels will be concluded one year from now? How many will be signed off?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Well, Mr. Speaker, on the subject of facts, I don't expect the member opposite to contribute many facts to Question Period. Certainly I have been doing my best to keep the members aware of what the situation is.
I'll point out to the member that the Ta'an Kwach'an settlement is not complete and I will point out to the member that the Tr'ondek negotiations were not complete when this government assumed office and that this government closed that deal.
With respect to the outstanding negotiations, as I indicated last week and I'll reiterate again today, I expect that we will be achieving agreements with White River and Kluane and Liard by the spring, and I expect that Carcross and Ross River will be complete some time next year, hopefully at least by the fall. I am hopeful, of course, that circumstances will allow us to continue negotiations with Kwanlin Dun and that we will reach agreement with them, but there are few outstanding matters that must be determined first before we can be certain that the atmosphere and the opportunity is ripe for the negotiations.
Mr. Ostashek: There is no doubt that this minister's interpretation of history sometimes strays quite far and dramatically different from that of history.
Since some First Nations no longer have any faith in this government and believe that they have been hoodwinked by the NDP election campaign, will this government consider reinstating the former land claims negotiators who were making progress on land claims? Will he do that and will he send his B.C. negotiators back home so the Yukon First Nations can get on with settling their claims?
Hon. Mr. McDonald: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do have faith in the land claims negotiators, both the current and the ones who were appointed recently to the table and also the ones that have been there in the past. I have faith in those negotiators to continue to negotiate the land claims and bring them to conclusion, and I have for a very long time.
There has been a lot of progress made on the negotiations that I cited, as virtually no work had been done prior to the last year on those fronts. I feel very proud of the negotiators. They've taken us virtually to the brink of getting agreements and I'm certain that we'll be able to announce good news with respect to the settling of those agreements in the not-too-distant future.
Question re: Education, mathematics grades
Mr. Phillips: My question is for the Minister for Education.
On November 12, I asked the minister several questions about recent results in math tests and some Yukon students where over 60 percent of our students in grades 9 and 10 failed. The minister called me an alarmist and said it was only the first term and that teachers would have time to improve these results.
Is the minister aware now that the second term marks are in, and that 42 percent failed in math 9 and in math 10 the failure rate was 58 percent?
This is a significant negative trend, and I wonder if the minister is aware of these poor results and the recent math marks?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, I'll take it that the member's questions today in Question Period mean that we will not be revisiting the issue of the math results in the Education debates up this afternoon following Question Period, in the supplementaries.
I have not looked at the second term results of the math. Perhaps I can point out to the member that these results may in fact be in part based on the direction of the previous government in relation to the math testing.
Mr. Phillips: Mr. Speaker, what a terrible excuse from that minister.
Many of the parents have just received a letter from the F.H. Collin's math department which encourages the parents of students who scored below 50 percent to sign up now for the next semester.
Is the minister aware that the next semester is already almost full, and that most of the students who failed will have to wait until next semester before they can retake their course? Mr. Speaker, this is unacceptable. Will the minister act now and consider hiring more teachers to help these math students to achieve passing grades so that they don't have to wait nine months to take their math courses over and lose a year?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: We are very concerned about ensuring that all of our students have an opportunity to do well in math and to do well in all their subjects. I think it is important that we ensure there is participation and success available for all the students in the system and not simply looking toward achieving excellence for a few students.
We need to make sure that the math is taught well to all the students and that all students are encouraged to do their best, and I'm working with departmental officials to deal with the results that the member is referring to at F.H. Collins.
Mr. Phillips: Not only are our math students failing in very high numbers, so is our Minister of Education failing in this regard at the expense of these young students.
Last week, Mr. Speaker, the minister said she would consider my request for an independent evaluation of our math programs in Yukon schools. The present trend is unacceptable. Will the minister call a meeting with the partners of education - the teachers, the parents, the students, the school councils - and discuss with them the method of developing this evaluation, so that we can get an independent evaluation of the math in this territory? There is a problem and the minister should recognize that problem. Will she call that meeting?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm pleased to learn that this member is finally recognizing that it is important to work with the partners in education. That's something he didn't do when he was in the chair of minister responsible for Education. He's standing up here and he's demonstrating that he has little faith in teachers. He's the one taking shots.
I would like the member to know that his allegations are causing very serious concern. I also know that parents are concerned about how their students are doing in math at the high school. Parents are concerned about the fact that there are other subjects suffering because too much time is being spent on homework for math to the detriment of other subjects and extracurricular activities. That member is coming too late to the realization that it's important to consult with the partners in education. That member is coming too late to the realization that we need to encourage all of our students to do well. We'll continue to work on improvements.
Question re: Northern Network of Services/Gibbs Group Homes, operational audit
Mrs. Edelman: My question is for the Minister of Health and Social Services.
In recent weeks, I have asked a number of questions about the operations of the Gibbs Group Homes and NNS in Whitehorse. I've raised a number of issues, including safety concerns and First Nations staffing levels. Indeed, questions in this area have been going around for some time. In 1996, Margaret Commodore, NDP MLA for Whitehorse Centre at the time, also asked questions about this very issue.
I understand that the Department of Health and Social Services is now in the process of conducting an operational audit of Gibbs Group Homes and NNS, and I'm very pleased that the government has selected this course of action and I look forward to the results.
Can the minister elaborate on what form the audit will take? Will it focus on financial issues, program evaluations, safety concerns, staffing issues or all of these issues? Can the minister elaborate on the content of the audit?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: Well, I can confirm that we are doing a review of the operations, and it will include all of the above.
Mrs. Edelman: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's wonderful.
Can the minister tell the House who will be doing the audit, and will it be done in house or will someone from outside the department or outside the territory be brought in to complete this project?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: Just to ensure impartiality, we're anticipating at this point that we would be bringing in someone from outside.
Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, that's wise.
Does the minister have any idea when the audit will be completed?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: At this point, Mr. Speaker, we are looking at how this can be facilitated. It's a little bit premature to make an estimate on that, but we are actively looking at some of the options.
Question re: Yukon Federation of Labour, government funding
Ms. Duncan: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development. The minister indicated in this House that many organizations receive fee-for-service funding for providing service and input to the government. I note that the Yukon Federation of Labour, in their financial statements, indicate that they received $7,000 in professional fees, and this is listed as "YTG funding project contract payout."
Would the Minister of Economic Development outline what this contract with the Yukon Federation of Labour was for? What was the service performed for this fee?
Hon. Mr. Harding: I'll have to check as to the details of what was involved in that, Mr. Speaker, and I'll get back to the member on that.
While I'm on my feet, though, I wanted the member to be given some information. I did a little review after her question the other day about business organizations, grants, contributions, fee for service, and what actually is paid out by the Yukon government. I did a review for 1994-95 on, and I'll just table that for the member.
Contributions for business organizations in the territory reached a high in 1995-96 of $923,000 in one year. So, perhaps I can table that for the member and give her some information about how much money is given to business organizations to participate in public processes.
Ms. Duncan: I thank the minister. I look forward to reviewing that information.
When the minister was determining what this $7,000 project was for, it would appear that it may have been a payment to the Yukon Federation of Labour for their preliminary brief on the Yukon hire commission. When the minister is researching this particular contract, would he also examine it to determine what other organizations this fee may have been made available to?
Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can look into it. The member has a lot of interest in that $7,000. She seems to have developed quite a dislike for the Yukon Federation of Labour, which represents some 3,000 union members in this territory, but I'll be happy - if she wants to scrutinize them, they should be open to appropriate scrutiny, and certainly I'll provide her with more information regarding this contract, if it even exists, and I'll have to look into that. I'm not aware of the details.
Ms. Duncan: Well, Mr. Speaker, the first part of the minister's preamble was wrong. I don't have a dislike for any organization in this territory. The second part was quite correct. I think this and every other contract deserves appropriate scrutiny by this Legislature. That's what we're here for.
My question for the minister is, in determining what payment is made for professional services, would the minister indicate if there has been some kind of a scale attached for this funding, when intervenor funding or professional services are rendered by an organization in terms of their written submissions to the government? I note that the NGO funding policy says, "Requests for intervenor funding will be considered only in exceptional circumstances and where it is the Yukon government's best interest." It also says that when it is determined that intervenor funding will be provided, it will be based on a predetermined budget. Nowhere else in this document does it indicate what that predetermined budget might be. Would the minister advise us on that?
Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll be happy to investigate that, and I'm sure that any arrangement that was struck would be entirely consistent with other arrangements that have been struck for different services and advice and research performed for government by many different business organizations in the territory, and I've tabled some information on that.
I also would like to table a couple of fee-for-service agreements, one with the Yukon Chamber of Mines and one with the Yukon Chamber of Commerce, for the members' perusal. I'm sure that anything that might be struck would be entirely consistent with the provisions of these fee-for-service arrangements.
Question re: Driver exams, non-truck routes
Mr. Phillips: My question is to the Minister of Community and Transportation Services on the issue of the class 1 driver students being required to use non-truck routes in Faro and Dawson City.
On November 25, the manager of transportation services branch is quoted in the media as saying, "There's absolutely no problem with the routes that they used in both places." She said she talked to the RCMP and town officials in both locations and there have been no complaints. She went on in the article to say, "The only one who has a problem with the route is 918" - the driving school.
Well, Mr. Speaker, I beg to differ and would like to table a letter that was sent to my colleague, the Member for Klondike that he received from the City of Dawson complaining not just once, but three times about these routes. On one occasion, the tractor-trailer was stalled in front of the firehall exit doors, creating a potentially dangerous situation if there was a fire.
Can the minister advise the House why his officials are saying one thing, while the town officials in Dawson and Faro are saying quite the other?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, as we know, this has been back and forth many times in the House and we are looking and have come with a legislative return as to the member opposite's question. I do know that in Dawson City we used the industrial subdivision that is outside of town to do the route testing and, certainly, whatever we do, we'll do in future with the advisement and under the understanding of the municipality or the town in question.
Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Speaker, it seems that the minister has a poor memory as well because I don't believe he tabled any legislative return with regard to this issue. He handed something out to the media, which we had to get from the media. He didn't table it in the House.
I've also received a letter from a resident of Faro stating his concern about class 1 driver tests being conducted on Dawson Drive in Faro, a very narrow road, and creating an unduly dangerous situation. An individual brought this concern to the attention of the owners and was told that the driver examiner was in the truck and the owner could do nothing about it.
I'd like the minister to advise the House what instructions he's given his officials about the driver examiner using non-truck routes in Faro and Dawson to conduct class 1 road tests, and when did the minister give those instructions?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, let me say that the bylaw officer and the RCMP in Faro said just recently that they did not have a problem with the testing being done on the lower bench. Of course, there is a sign that discourages use of heavy trucks on this route and the fuel and moving trucks use this route. The sign is certainly meant to discourage heavy mine trucks from using the route regularly.
Of course, being that the sign does belong to the municipality of Faro and the municipal bylaw officer says that they do not have a problem, although we will certainly continue to work with the municipality and to let them know if we use the route, it would be with their permission.
Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Speaker, it would sure be interesting to know if a child was run over by one of those trucks in that area, who would be responsible. It seems that this minister would be avoiding it at all costs.
We, on this side of the House, called for an independent investigation and we heard the minister say one thing and his officials say another. Now his officials from various communities say that they disagree with what the territorial government officials have said. Would the minister not agree that, because of the discrepancies, it is time to call for an independent inquiry into what is going on with this particular issue to solve it once and for all? It's a very serious safety issue and the minister is trying to avoid it.
Hon. Mr. Keenan: I certainly would not agree.
Question re: Northern Network of Services/Gibbs Groups Homes, operational audit
Mrs. Edelman: Once again, my question is for the Minister of Health and Social Services. Mr. Speaker, once again, this is again about Gibbs Group Homes and Northern Network of Services.
As the audit is well on its way and I assume that there are terms of reference in place, can the minister table the terms of reference this week?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: As I indicated to the member, we are currently taking a look at what needs to be examined. We are looking at some of our options in that regard. As far as the terms of reference, I made mention to the member, we are looking at all aspects. That would include such things as operational, financial, et cetera.
Mrs. Edelman: Well, perhaps the minister can provide those even after the House has risen.
Now, Mr. Speaker, on the same note, could the minister also provide a final report of the audit when it is completed?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: The report, when it comes in, will be available for our department to determine what steps need to be taken, if any. As well, we'll also make it available to the principals in this regard. To date, we have not determined how widespread this report would be disseminated, but, certainly, some of the principals involved in there would have an interest in it.
Mrs. Edelman: So I gather I'm not going to get the report.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I understand the minister has been in contact with Yukon First Nations over this issue. Will there be an opportunity for interested parties, such as the Yukon First Nations and other NGOs, to participate in the audit process?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: Yes, we have been discussing with CYFN in this regard, and as a matter of fact, part of the process is going to be to make sure that we cooperate on defining the parameters of this review in conjunction with CYFN.
Question re: Driver exams, non-truck routes
Mr. Phillips: My question again is for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. Now, Mr. Speaker, in an unusual move, the minister released a media backgrounder on November 27 on the chief driver examiner rather than a news release or tabling a document in this House. In that backgrounder, contrary to what the manager of transportation services stated, there is a note that the chief driver examiner be instructed not to use the road in Faro with prior authorization from the Town of Faro. So, obviously the department hasn't got its story straight.
I would remind the minister that this is only one allegation and has now been proven correct out of several allegations with calls for a creation of an independent inquiry.
Mr. Speaker, how does the Minister of Community and Transportation Services explain his comments in the release that he gave to the media and the comments by his official in the department who said that there was no problem with the routes they use in both places - they've talked to the RCMP and town officials - in light of the letter that we've received from the City of Dawson saying that they were told not to go on those particular routes? How does the minister explain those differences?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, I do have a legislative return that I tabled in the House on November 27, 1997, sitting before me, so I do believe it is misinformation that the member opposite is bringing to this House.
Certainly, it has been a controversial issue as to where people have been driving for their class 1 training. We do respect the wishes and the demands, in some cases, of the municipalities. Certainly, in this instance though, I said that I would be working with the municipalities in both Faro and in Dawson to make sure that safety is first and foremost in people's minds. Certainly, though, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that in 1993 and 1994, the previous administration, who was in government at that point in time, was using the same routes within Faro, so obviously, if they had the same concerns, they were not exercising those thoughts at that time.
Mr. Phillips: I'll ask the Minister of Transportation Services again. Who, Mr. Speaker, did his official talk to in Dawson City, when they said there's absolutely no problem with the routes they used in both places? She talked to the RCMP and town officials. Who were the town officials they talked to? Because, Mr. Speaker, in the letter that I tabled here today, the people in Dawson City - the officials who are supposed to know - said that no one talked to them and, in fact, they raised concerns three times with the chief driver examiner.
Why is the official contradicting what the Town of Dawson is saying? Can the minister answer that question?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Just for clarification on the first point, Mr. Speaker, within the Blues of November 27, it is quoted that, "Mr. Speaker, I have a legislative return," by myself, so I'm not sure where this misinformation is coming from, or why it is being presented. Certainly, it might be coming to a vacuum, or an empty hole, at this point in time, and so we must keep coming and reiterating over and over again.
So let me say that I will reiterate over and over again, until the point is driven home and absorbed by the member opposite. I will be working with the municipalities to work within their requests and to make sure that health and safety is paramount in our minds - in their minds - and that we do work together on such said issues.
Mr. Phillips: Well, the vacuum and the empty hole is over there in the minister's office, Mr. Speaker. That's the problem. We're not getting any answers to this question.
Would the minister come back to this House and tell us why there is a difference between what the minister has said in this House and what the minister has released to the media and what his senior officials are releasing to the media and what the City of Dawson officials are saying about permission to use those routes? Why is there a difference between that, Mr. Speaker?
It's not just a misunderstanding. One says they were allowed to go; the other says they were told not to go several times. Why is there a difference?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, I would be glad to get back and clarify this once and for all, and to make sure that the Yukon at large knows that the department is working with the municipalities who have that jurisdiction, if I may.
Question re: Municipal block funding
Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. Now, each year, the Yukon government turns over approximately $11.5 million to municipalities. The Yukon municipalities, in turn, use this money to provide services like garbage collection and fire protection. Now, the amount transferred has been frozen at $11.5 million, with no increases to cover inflation or population increases for a number of years.
Are there any plans to increase this funding to more acceptable levels?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, I can tell the member opposite that I'm having difficulty - well, not having difficulty, but certainly my colleagues and I are looking to maintain the funding that they have at this point in time. I realize that the Association of Yukon Communities has, for quite some time, been looking to get inflation factors, et cetera, built in, but certainly I can give them the assurance that I will be maintaining the level of funding, which, if I must say and can say, that the New Democrat government initiated.
Mrs. Edelman: Now, Mr. Speaker, municipal governments have very few opportunities to generate revenues. Given the minister's admission that there are no plans to increase funding to municipalities, will the minister at least commit to allowing municipalities to pursue alternative sources of revenue?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure as to where the member opposite is coming from on this, and certainly a blanket "yes" would be a very dangerous thing to say. But let me say that, in the idea of providing good governance and providing good services that lie within the municipal jurisdiction, I would be willing to work with the communities to see that we can maintain those levels.
Mrs. Edelman: Well, as part of the review committee's mandate on the Municipal Act, there was an examination of alternative ways of generating revenue, and there seemed to be some agreement from the government at that time that alternative sources of revenue generation were things that would be allowable under the Municipal Act. With that in mind, when will these Municipal Act amendments come forward into this House?
Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, I do believe that the Municipal Act amendments are due to be brought forward early in the coming new year, and I do believe - I can check to make certain - that it is January or February when the recommendations will come forward.
Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed, and we will proceed to Orders of the Day. Government Bills.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BILLS
Bill No. 45: Second Reading
Clerk: Second reading, Bill No. 45, standing in the name of the hon. Mrs. Moorcroft.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I move that Bill No. 45, entitled An Act to Amend to Public Utilites Act, be now read a second time.
Speaker: It has been moved by the hon. Minister of Justice that Bill No.45, entitled an Act to Amend The Public Utilities Act, be now read a second time.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The amendments being proposed in this bill will allow the government to continue to fund the Yukon Utilities Board as it is done now or to enter into contribution agreements with the board.
As the Public Utilities Act is presently written, the minister can provide administrative support for the board and enter into contracts for specialist services. This means that the board must rely on government for administrative support, or the government must contract with the board's technical advisors.
One of the recommendations from the utilities regulation review, concluded in 1995, was that the independence of the board should be maintained and enhanced. The first step to comply with that recommendation was to establish a separate office for the board. These amendments are the next step in enhancing the independence of the board.
Under the amendments before us, the Department of Justice could be able to conclude a contribution agreement with the board to cover costs associated with the day-to-day operations of the board, such as regular meeting, administrative activities, investigations of complaints filed under the act, training of board members, and attendance at meetings of the national organization of utility tribunals known as CAMPUT.
Under this arrangement, the board would be responsible for the payment of its cost and for maintaining an accurate account of all expenditures, and for operating within the funds allotted to it. These changes will give the Yukon Utilities Board greater independence without sacrificing accountability.
Mr. Phillips: We support this bill in principle. It is in fact the direction that we were moving in with the Public Utilities Board when we were in government and we appreciate that the minister is going to continue with the Yukon Party policy of setting the board up in a more independent manner.
Mr. Cable: I would like to thank the minister for the briefing this morning. I think the bill does achieve the dual goals of greater independence for the Yukon Utilities Board at the same time as retaining the accountability that I think is necessary for their financial operations. We will be supporting the bill.
Motion for second reading of Bill No. 45 agreed to
Hon. Mr. Harding: I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Speaker: It has been moved by the government House leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.
Motion agreed to
Speaker leaves the Chair
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order.
Is it the members' wish to take a brief recess?
Some Hon. Members: Agreed.
Chair: Fifteen minutes.
Recess
Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. Committee will be dealing with Bill No. 45, An Act to Amend the Public Utilities Act.
Bill No. 45 - An Act to Amend the Public Utilities Act
Chair: Is there any general debate?
On Clause 1
Clause 1 agreed to
On Clause 2
Clause 2 agreed to
On Clause 3
Clause 3 agreed to
On Clause 4
Clause 4 agreed to
On Clause 5
Clause 5 agreed to
On Clause 6
Clause 6 agreed to
On Title
Title agreed to
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, I move that you report Bill No. 45 out of Committee without amendment.
Motion agreed to
Chair: Committee will continue with Bill No. 8, Second Appropriation Act 1997-98.
Bill No. 8 - Second Appropriation Act, 1997-98 - continued
Department of Education - continued
On Capital Expenditures - continued
On Capital Project Planning and Pre-Engineering - continued
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Thank you, Mr. Chair. When we were discussing this line item on Thursday, I indicated that the funding was transferred to computer lab - $26,000 - and $350,000 for the design of the Ross River School.
It has been determined that the Ross River project will only require $300,000 for the fiscal year; therefore, $50,000 has been made available for transfer or allocation to other projects with Education. Ross River School was not planned at the time this budget was put together. We did put money in the budget for capital project planning and pre-engineering. Subsequent to the spring school council meeting in May of 1997, we determined that money would be allotted to the Ross River project, and that is the substantial amount of this line item.
Ms. Duncan: The issue that was raised with respect to this line item was the issue of transferring money around. It seemed that what the minister indicated in her original briefing and in the briefing today is that the department discovered, in light of other issues, they were able to do the capital project and planning for the Ross River School, allocated that money, discovered they had extra, and then shopped around to fill out the other gaps. I just question the ability of the department to do that, in light of the restraints in the Financial Administration Act. This isn't what we originally voted the money for, and that was the concern that was being expressed.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: In response to that, Mr. Chair, the original purpose of this line item was to allow flexibility in the planning of projects. Ross River School was not planned at the time this budget was put together. However, the government had committed to consultation with the communities, school councils and First Nations on future major projects. It was as a result of that consultation that the major project priorities were established, and I would remind members that this was after the capital budget had been approved by members of this House.
We have taken the funding and are using it for planning of construction for the Ross River School project. I understand the member's concerns, and will endeavour to ensure that there's good accountability for the funds that are spent by the Department of Education.
Ms. Duncan: The minister, on Thursday, outlined that $283,262 was the cost for planning for Ross River. Does part of that cost include bringing in people to examine other schools, such as was done with Old Crow? Were not other school councils brought in, for example, to look at Holy Family and Hidden Valley schools - their footprints and see how they operate? Is that part of the cost of this $283,000?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Some of the questions the member has can more appropriately be directed to the Government Services minister in relation to the design phase; however, the amount of the contract that I referred to on Thursday was specifically for the design contract that has been awarded for the Ross River School.
The funding for the Old Crow school council to take a look at the Hidden Valley and Holy Family schools was minimal and was covered elsewhere.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, is the Ross River School council being given an opportunity to look at other schools then, or not?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I know that members of the Ross River community, including the First Nation and I believe school councils, have been in Whitehorse on a couple of occasions this fall and have not requested or taken the opportunity to tour those schools. If they were to do so, that opportunity would certainly be afforded them.
Ms. Duncan: So, am I to understand then, and is this House to understand, that this design contract is for a completely new design of a new school, and we are not using any previous work?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: Perhaps I can assist here. The $283,262 that is for the design fees represents about 5.4 percent of the amount in terms of construction. This will be for a new design. One of the issues is that the sort of off-the-shelf approach, off-the-shelf designs, probably wouldn't lend themselves particularly well to Ross River, because of the nature of the school's program as well as - and I think anyone who is familiar with Ross River can appreciate some of the inherent geological conditions there that mitigate against simply taking one project and popping it into that community, because of the problems with discontinuous permafrost, et cetera.
At this point, what's being anticipated is a new design.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, we often talk about saving money and where cost savings can be achieved in terms if capital projects, and often we link recreation facilities, saying if we are building a new school and this community needs a new pool, ice arena, or whatever, why aren't we attaching them to the school and building them at the same time?
Is there any thought to including any recreation facilities in the design of the school, or has there been a request?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: As the member knows, particularity in the rural communities the schools are used as full-time and year-round facilities. The school gymnasiums are used for recreational activities outside of school hours. I believe that that is the intent for the new Ross River School, and we'll work to ensure the facilities in the new Ross River School meet the needs of the community, since most rural schools are community schools.
Ms. Duncan: Has there been a specific request for additional recreation facilities with the construction of this school, or is it simply the gymnasium?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Not other than the request for a gymnasium.
Mr. Phillips: With the comments that the minister made last Thursday and then comments she's made today, she left me a little concerned about the numbers. They don't seem to add up. The minister said on Thursday, "This funding was transferred to the computer labs, $26,000, and $350,000 was for the design of the Ross River School. It's been determined that the Ross River project will only require $300,000 for this fiscal year; therefore, $50,000 is made available for a transfer allocation to other projects within Education."
Mr. Chair, what I'm concerned about is that it appears that $50,000 is still in that line item. If you're not going to use the money in that line item, you usually, in the supplementary, give it up. So, I'm concerned that the minister is just holding the money to spend on something else that might come up and that isn't the way we give the minister authority to spend money. The minister has to stand up and can't say that, "Well, we've got $50,000 left over here, we're just going to look around for some other projects and if they come up, we'll do them."
The minister can't do it that way. We're not just carte blanche - I mean she could put it into miscellaneous capital projects, I guess, or some other line item - computer labs or something specific. But to just say it's just there to use for whatever doesn't seem to me to be the proper budgeting process. At least it's not very accountable. So, maybe the minister can explain what's going on with this $50,000.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'll attempt to communicate this clearly and hopefully the member and I can at least have a common understanding of what's happening here.
The reduction in the capital project planning and pre-engineering line item is a reduction of $376,000. Three hundred thousand dollars of that reduction is being applied to the Ross River School and that is reflected further down in the supplementary under public schools as Ross River School design, $300,000. And as I've explained previously, the Ross River School project specifically was not in place until after the spring school council meeting in May, which was after the capital budget had been approved.
In addition, $26,000 has been transferred to computer labs. The further $50,000 reduction is included in the net amount of total capital expenditures supplementary of $5,176,000, which is the last number we have on page 5-3 of the supplementary budget. The member will see, if he looks through, that there are several other additional expenditures and several other reductions of expenditures. That $50,000 is being applied throughout the capital reallocations.
Mr. Phillips: That helps. That's a little better explanation. When the minister said the other day that it's going to be made available in allocations to other projects in Education, it sounded like it wasn't allocated yet and it was just $50,000 that the minister had in her office that she was going to look around for a little pet project and apply it to. So I just wanted to clarify that.
Capital Project Planning and Pre-Engineering in the amount of an underexpenditure of $376,000 agreed to
On Air Quality/Energy Management Projects
Mr. Phillips: I guess I could let the minister go, but my concern on this one, Mr. Chair, is that this has always been a fairly significant area of concern. Usually, our problem in this area has been that we don't have enough money in that line item. So I just wonder why we're actually turning some money back, because I know that there are air quality problems in schools throughout the whole territory.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I hasten to assure the member that we will be back next year. There are also some monies in our operation and maintenance budget for some of the smaller energy savings projects. In this line item, the largest capital project was the air quality renovations at Whitehorse Elementary that were done this year. It is expected that projects will be identified in future years that deal with air quality and energy management.
Ms. Duncan: Air quality in our schools has been raised by a number of my constituents, not simply with respect to the schools in my riding, but with schools overall. I wonder if I could ask the minister to have her staff provide me with some information on what studies have been completed, in which schools and what work remains to be done on air quality in particular.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I will ask for a complete listing for the member with some details on air quality projects.
Air Quality/Energy Management Projects in the amount of an underexpenditure of $25,000 agreed to
On Capital Maintenance Renovations
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This is a result of lower costs in a number of projects. There still exists a contingency for emergency repairs that could occur during the balance of this fiscal year.
Much of the work covered by this line item is done during the summer months, to minimize the disruption to students and staff.
Ms. Duncan: Am I to understand from the minister that this is strictly a cost-saving? That all the projects in the technical briefing were completed?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, Mr. Chair. I have a list of the projects completed during the summer of 1997, which correspond with the projects listed in the technical briefing.
Ms. Duncan: One of the items that might be considered for that contingency is the roof at Jack Hulland School. I understand it's still a problem. Could the minister indicate if that's in the lineup for the 1998-98 budget year?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I have to tell the member that we certainly haven't finalized the budget for the 1998-99 year yet. I'm unable to give her an answer.
I can indicate to her that $49,000 would not cover the expenditures required for the project she's mentioning.
Capital Maintenance Renovations in the amount of an underexpenditure of $49,000 agreed to
On Public Schools
On Facility Construction and Maintenance
On F.H. Collins School Upgrading
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This is a result of various projects costing less than anticipated.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, I'm told by the individuals involved in this project and others - students and so on - that this project, the F.H. Collins upgrading, went particularly well this summer, largely due to the cooperation by everyone involved.
I'd just like to applaud the individuals involved for not only realizing a cost-saving but completing these projects in a timely manner and with a great deal of cooperative support from the partners in education.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the member for that. We're always very happy to pass along compliments from the public and from the opposition to the Department of Education and to Government Services for the good work that they do.
F.H. Collins School Upgrading in the amount of an underexpenditure of $45,000 agreed to
On Modular Classrooms
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: These funds were transferred to cover additional costs incurred at the Teen Parent Centre. The savings were the result of selling the portables at L'École Emilie Tremblay. The sale price was sufficient to cover the costs incurred in selling the units.
Ms. Duncan: Have they been moved, Mr. Chair? Have the portables been moved?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, they have, Mr. Chair. I was there recently for another event, and the portables have been sold and moved.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, does part of the price include site recovery, and is that scheduled for this summer?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: We'll have to check that with Government Services and get back to the member.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, I also understand that one of the modular classrooms was the addition of a modular classroom at Elijah Smith this summer. Is that correct? Did we not move a portable up there as well this summer?
I'm getting a blank look, so okay. The addition I'll deal with under school facilities alterations then.
Modular Classrooms in the amount of an underexpenditure of $15,000 agreed to
On Whitehorse Grade Reorganization - Porter Creek Secondary School
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This revote of $1,972,000 is for a carryover of the construction costs from 1996-97. The contract was paid to a level of completion and Government Services returned the funds to Education at year-end with instructions to request a revote. This follows normal procedure at each year-end. Contracts for work that has not been finished are returned to the department for a revote. Revote approval generally depends on the legal liability, health and safety or, in some cases, is based on new information with regard to the actual need for the project.
This particular revote covers a wide range of construction costs. The revote has to do with the contractor's schedule on the overall project.
I'm aware, as well, that members have requested a summary of the change orders for the Porter Creek Secondary School renovations. I've been assured by my colleague from Government Services that he'll provide that to the members opposite and they'll be able to pursue it with him.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, I'd just like to remind the minister that I had requested a listing of what projects were left to be done for these funds, and what projects are remaining outstanding at the school, for example the technical lab that has no computers. The technical lab has wonderful furniture and it's a beautiful facility but they've got nothing to do in it. There are problems with the cafeteria, problems with the grounds - those sorts of issues that remain outstanding that that school will be coming back next year for money for. I want to know what's left to be done and what's the estimated cost.
Also, I neglected to ask for my revised opening date. The Minister of Government Services had absolutely committed November 15 to me, but it's come and gone. I wonder if we could have a revised date?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: It's anticipated that there will be a full move in over the holidays, and I would imagine that the official date, with fireworks, flowers and a big cake, will be some time in the new year.
Ms. Duncan: Could the minister indicate if the funds for the move are included somewhere, or are we asking students and staff to donate their time and energies to moving into the new facility?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: No, we will be drafting the children from Jack Hulland - no, I'm just being facetious.
No, that will be done; that will be included in the price.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't know if the member has further questions in relation to the Porter Creek Secondary School project. What I would like to recommend for the member is that the critics take advantage of a technical briefing. We could certainly make both Government Services and Education officials available so that we can have all the information that they require. We appreciate having received notice of it, and I know that the public servants involved are working on compiling that information for the members.
Ms. Duncan: Can I just make a suggestion, that as long as we are getting a technical briefing on it that we invite the building advisory committee members who are interested to attend that, as well?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't believe that would present a problem, Mr. Chair; we can do that.
Whitehorse Grade Reorganization - Porter Creek Secondary School in the amount of $1,972,000 agreed to
On Whitehorse Grade Reorganization - Renovations - Other Schools
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: These are revotes to complete a variety of projects.
Ms. Duncan: Would the minister provide us with a list of those projects at some other point in time?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Since the member asked, some of the projects that were completed include Christ the King Elementary, on Nusutlin Drive; various Catholic secondary renovations; several of the F.H. Collins renovations; the two new modular classrooms at F.H. Collins; the Elijah Smith Elementary is adding four new classrooms; plus related furniture and equipment.
Ms. Duncan: I would just like to bring to the minister's attention that I was told by members of Elijah Smith that there were a number of problems with the renovations and the alterations to that particular school. I don't think the building advisory committee was particularly satisfied at the end of the process.
Are the alterations being made, to their suggestions?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: Yes, there were - I don't know if it was a question of not being enamoured, but the principal problem was the ceiling that was put in there, and also the light levels. The light levels have been adjusted. As far as the ceiling goes, there was some dispute as to what the original design for the ceiling entailed. I believe the description was "a wood ceiling less formal than the entrance". That left a fair degree of interpretation and, indeed, when the ceiling came in, it was considerably less formal than the entranceway.
Subsequent to that, the administration and the school council raised the concerns. We have since resolved that. The changes to the ceiling will be accomplished over the holidays and, as I understand, it will be to the satisfaction of the school council. Right now, there's, I suppose, a bit of a debate as to the exact style that they're looking at, but it will be accomplished over the holidays. I spoke with the principal on Friday about that and, as well, I also spoke with the chair of the school council.
Whitehorse Grade Reorganization - Renovations - Other Schools in the amount of $72,000 agreed to
On Various School Facilities Alterations
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The major portion of this item was a revote for school-initiated renovations. The schools are able to request a revote of funds that are not expended in the current fiscal year as part of the site-based management process. Some of the projects completed over the summer of 1997-98 include the reading recovery renovations at Christ the King Elementary, the Gadzoosdaa Residence furniture, asphalt repairs at Whitehorse Elementary and Jack Hulland schools, and security systems at Johnson Elementary and Takhini.
Mr. Phillips: We've had a rash of broken windows and vandalism at our schools over the past couple of years or so, and we've installed security systems at various schools. Have we got in place now in all of our - at least the Whitehorse schools - adequate security systems, cameras, that kind of thing, to try and apprehend some of these people who run around in the evening or at night or in the early morning hours, smashing windows?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, we do have some, and I think that what I should probably do is provide the member with a written reply so that he can have a breakdown of what is available at what schools, and we'll continue to be working on it.
Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, when we build new buildings, such as the Porter Creek school, I suppose part of the contract is a security system built into the school. Are we putting in security systems that the local security companies here can monitor adequately and have the ability to monitor? Because sometimes we have a tendency to go to some new Cadillac system or some fancy system that creates problems for the existing people to monitor.
So, I just want to make sure that if we're putting in a security system the local people who monitor these types of systems have the ability to do so without having to do major upgrades, because I am hearing some concerns and complaints about some of the systems we are putting in, that the local security companies are having to come in and look at them and make recommended changes and that kind of thing.
In fact, one comment that I heard is that we're having people possibly without the proper security credentials actually designing some systems for our schools, that some engineers who don't have the proper credentials are designing systems and, in fact, local companies are having to go in afterwards and sort of clean up the mess and spend a lot of time changing or improving the system so that it can actually be monitored properly.
Hon. Mr. Sloan: I'm not sure, as a general rule of thumb, if that is indeed the case, but I was just running through some of the contracts that we have in this regard and I do notice that, specifically with Porter Creek, we did allocate money to Total North Communications for the monitoring of the Porter Creek existing security system. So, I imagine that it is being done on an ongoing basis, but I can raise that issue with, certainly, Government Services about the adequacy of the monitoring.
Mr. Phillips: Well, you know, we hear the government on the side opposite talk a lot about local hire and local purchase, so we do have a couple - two or three maybe - security companies in the territory that can do this kind of thing. I just want to make sure that whatever kind of security system we put in our new facilities, we have the ability to monitor it or at least keep track of the incidents that happen there. I am hearing some concerns from local companies who are very concerned about all the work they have to do to actually set up the monitoring of the system. They have to make modifications to it and other things that may or may not be included in their contract and, if they're not, of course, they have to come back to the government and say, "Look, we were going to do this for X amount of dollars, but we found out that the system you set up isn't compatible with our system and now we have to do something quite a bit different."
I just want to make sure that we're consulting the local companies before we put a system in so that they can monitor it properly.
Various School Facilities Alterations in the amount of $177,000 agreed to
On Chief Zzeh Gittlit School Replacement
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This funding is requested to enable the government to work on preparing the foundation, put in a gravel pad and purchase materials for the replacement of Chief Zzeh Gittlit School.
Mr. Phillips: Any more word on the road or the possibility of when they might try to put a winter road in there? I would think that if this weather keeps up for a couple more days, you might be able to barge it up the Yukon River to Old Crow in January or February. That's wishful thinking, I suppose. I just wonder if the minister could bring us up to date on where we're at with getting the materials onsite.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The member has raised a very serious concern, which is that the weather is certainly not cooperating with enabling us to meet the logistics required to construct a winter road. This line item does not include the cost of building a winter road. The costs of the road are included in Government Services' budget. If we're unable to build a winter road, the materials will be freighted by air. I know that the Department of Government Services has been working on making sure their minister is fully prepared for the member's question in the Government Services estimates.
Mr. Phillips: I hope that we can use a winter road, because that would provide a lot of local work and local purchase if we do. If we have to go the air route, I would suspect that it would be quite a few trips in a single-engine Otter if we were to do it locally. I would think we would have to use a Hercules aircraft, I suspect, and I'm not aware of any Yukon company at the present time that has a couple of spare Hercules aircraft sitting around that they could use on this. So I would suspect that if it does go the air route, then a lot of dollars that would be allocated toward reducing the Yukon's unemployment rate would be reducing some other province's or territories' unemployment rate and not ours.
So, I hate to say this, but I hope it cools off, and we get more snow, because if we do that, then, of course, we'll be able to hire Yukon people to do the job.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, could I just indicate that it was my understanding that local companies had obtained prices in terms of working with the Hercules aircraft? I understood that local companies had obtained prices of working with the Hercules aircraft so that there indeed would be local jobs generated should we be in an air-freight position. Is that not correct? Is my information not correct?
Hon. Mr. Sloan: We did have an expression of interest from one of the local companies. Now, whether or not that was involving a Hercules, at this point, I am not sure, but they did indicate a price for air freight. So, we have at least one local submission. Whether or not the equipment would be available from that company, or whether they would have to lease it, we're not sure at this point. We are certainly interested in a backup, and we have been looking at some air options.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, perhaps we could leave the question of whether it's a comparable cost to the Government Services debate and focus on the school itself.
Can the minister indicate if there's a final design in place that is approved by the various partners on this school for this money?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: We anticipate that the design will be completed by January 15. It's very close at the present time.
Hon. Mr. Bruce: I'm pleased to thank the government for the quick response when the school burnt down in January in Old Crow, and how quickly the government and the First Nation came to agreement on a temporary school for the children of Old Crow. It's not the suitable way to teach our children but in the emergency it was the quick way to do things.
I'm also pleased with the government for setting up a project manager and an advisory committee for the Old Crow school, which will be built soon.
I know it's hard to do something like this.
This project will give jobs to the boys of Old Crow and will be a good learning experience in all areas while building the school. And after the school is finished, the kids in Old Crow once again will have a good school to learn in.
Thank you very much to all the government.
Mr. Phillips: I wonder if the minister can tell us, with respect to the transportation of the school, whether or not it will be tendered, whether it's by air or by road. Will there be a public tendering process posted in the local papers? Is it the plan for the government to do it that way?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm just looking for my notes from the most recent updates and the meeting we had in relation to the Old Crow school project. The intent of Government Services is to tender.
Chief Zzeh Gittlit School Replacement in the amount of $2,825,000 agreed to
On Distance Education
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This project has been delayed for the current year. The department needs to complete the training and development of current systems before taking on new projects so that we're making use of available technology before proceeding further.
Distance Education in the amount of an underexpenditure of $75,000 agreed to
On Teen Parent Centre
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This funding was transferred from the modular classroom line to address the need for new traffic signs and completing other minor projects, such as landscaping.
Ms. Duncan: The minister just said a crosswalk, the signs and so on, so this is a direct request from the City of Whitehorse then?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes.
Teen Parent Centre in the amount of $15,000 agreed to
On Dawson Second School
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This was a revote to complete the design contract and to finish the site cleanup. All of the contaminated soil has now been removed from the site. There is still a concrete slab on site for use as a skateboard park. The City of Dawson has leased this as a test project for use by the children of Dawson. It has proved to be a success.
Mr. Phillips: She doesn't have to provide it right away, Mr. Chair, but maybe the minister could provide us with the latest number of students in the Dawson school, and maybe a bit of a chart of where it's going, and tell us where the Dawson school council is with respect to their request for a new school. Have they been asking the minister to speed it up? Is there a demonstrated need right now with the numbers? What's happening in Dawson?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I believe that the present enrollment in Dawson is 304 students. With respect to the member's second question, I can tell him that, when I met with the Dawson school council, they did have a participant at the school council chairs meeting in May of this year and were in agreement with the decisions that were made at that time.
Ms. Duncan: Aren't the portables with the Dawson school to be moved? Isn't there an agreement between the City of Dawson and the Government of Yukon respecting the use of these portables? I believe they had a finite life. What's the status of that?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The portables are presently in use at the Dawson school, and I believe that the agreement for their use was extended between the department and the school.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, did I understand the minister to just say that that agreement was extended?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes.
Ms. Duncan: Could she come back at some point in time with the details then of the extension if it was signed off by all the parties and provide us with the details on that?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I can come back with that information for the member. As well, Mr. Chair, I have some responses to some questions that were made in the House on Thursday available for the critics.
Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, I apologize. I should have asked in the line before. Could the minister indicate when the old Teen Parent Centre will be removed?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'll have to come back with an answer for the member on that question.
Mr. Jenkins: Could the minister just elaborate further on the extension of the agreement on the portables in Dawson City? When was the contract entered into to extend it, because it has expired. What were the terms and conditions of the extension?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't have that information with me in the House. I will have to come back with a written response for the member.
Mr. Jenkins: Does the minister envision a life expectancy of the portables?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm not sure what exactly the member's question is. The portables are presently in use at the school and I believe I recall some correspondence with the community and with the Mayor of Dawson and, as I've said, I'll have to come back with a written answer.
Mr. Jenkins: What is the ultimate life of these units? Let's go about it this way: what is the effective life of a modular unit in use as a school?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: That depends on the modular unit itself. Some have been in place for quite a long time. For example, the Mayo school has modular construction and is approaching 30 years of age. Some of the modular classrooms in various locations have been replaced; others have been renovated.
Dawson Second School in the amount of $120,000 agreed to
Chair: For the record, we will return to Teen Parent Centre.
On Teen Parent Centre - revisited
Teen Parent Centre in the amount of $15,000 agreed to
On New French First Language School
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This was a revote to complete the installation of the Big Toy, crosswalk controls, landscaping and roof repairs.
Mr. Phillips: Roof repairs? I thought the school just opened up about a year ago. We have roof repairs already?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, there were some repairs on the roof, I believe. That's what the note indicates.
Mr. Phillips: Well, isn't there some kind of contractor's warranty where, if we have repairs within 12 months or whatever? I know when you buy a house or build a house, you get a new home warranty. I'm sure we have a warranty with the contractor. Maybe the minister could come back with the amount we spent on roof repairs and whether or not it's recoverable from the contractor.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister of Government Services is going to be checking into the contract and whether there was a warranty that covered the roof repairs. I will certainly get the detailed information on the total cost of roof repairs and how much of it was recoverable.
Mr. Phillips: I would prefer if the Minister of Education brought that back. She's a little shorter and a bit more concise than the Minister of Government Services. It would save a bit of time if maybe he could pass the information over to the Minister of Education. If she could give us those answers, we would appreciate that.
New French First Language School in the amount of $42,000 agreed to
On Ross River School Design
Ross River School Design in the amount of $300,000 agreed to
On Instructional Equipment
On School Based Equipment Purchase
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The majority of this is a request to revote $231,000. The revote is for school-specific projects, and was transferred directly to the schools. There was also a net transfer of $8,000 to assist in the purchase of curriculum software that came from various school facilities alterations.
Ms. Duncan: Could the minister provide us with a listing of where this school based equipment purchase is going? Which schools?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, Mr. Chair, we can come back with that information.
Ms. Duncan: I do hear continuing discussion, some of which I alluded to earlier, of technical labs that are lacking equipment and other situations.
Is there still an outstanding number of requests for equipment in various schools?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The request for replacement equipment is certainly ongoing within the schools, and that is why that line item is here. I'm not sure if the member is looking for a specific list of which schools have requested what, but I can tell the member that, in almost all budget years, the request for school based equipment purchase exceeds the allotted budget.
Ms. Duncan: What the minister has indicated to me then is that the wish list exceeds the money, which is not surprising.
How does the department determine its priorities in this respect? Is this also an area where the minister intends to involve school councils in the discussion?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: We do have discussion with school councils about their priorities, so they are involved in requests relating to school based equipment purchase. As well, there is a policy in place within the department for phased in replacement of, in particular, computer equipment. So rather than replacing computer equipment that's two years old, there would be phased in replacement so that the oldest equipment is being replaced before the newer ones are.
School Based Equipment Purchase in the amount of $239,000 agreed to
On Advanced Education
On Training Trust Funds
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The Youth Works Steering Committee requests that this money be taken back because they determined that they would not be able to spend the total allotment. They have requested that this money is made available in the future, and the department has agreed to return the funds with this understanding.
Training Trust Funds in the amount of an underexpenditure of $150,000 agreed to
On Adult Education Capital Support
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This is a revote to cover costs of upgrading electronic systems.
Adult Education Capital Support in the amount of $20,000 agreed to
On Libraries and Archives
On Community Library Development Projects
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This is a revote and covers several projects, including a bibliophile licence, computer systems at the Whitehorse Public Library, books and cataloguing, air circulation upgrade, and audio-visual equipment.
Mr. Phillips: Are there any special projects planned by the community library services with respect to the gold rush anniversary and the centennials?
Of course, 1898, as we know was the year of the Klondike Gold Rush, and 1998 is the anniversary. There is a great deal of information in our local libraries that could be put together in displays with respect to a history of the gold rush. I just wonder if our libraries and the archives in this area are going to be more active in 1998, so to speak, in the types of projects that they were active in in 1996. In 1992, I know they put on various displays and interpretive evenings for people to tell us a little more about the history of the territory.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, Mr. Chair. I do not have the list here with me, but I know that there are some special displays, both in libraries and in archives, in relation to the anniversaries, and I can bring back for the member further information on them.
Community Library Development Projects in the amount of $94,000 agreed to
On Archives Development Projects
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: This revote is requested to increase the display preparation and additional conversion of film to video. Part of the funding is to prepare for the Yukon centennial displays and to prepare thematic displays to publicize archival resources and programs throughout the Yukon and, eventually, world-wide by the Internet.
Archives Development Projects in the amount of $59,000 agreed to
Chair: Are there any questions on the recoveries?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: There were questions on the recoveries in general debate, so I would just like to read into the record the notes that I have for this.
There is a recovery of $2,945,000 associated with the fire loss of Chief Zzeh Gittlit School, which includes temporary facilities, replacement of materials lost in the fire, personal belongings of the school. A full breakdown of the recovery will be available during the Government Services debate.
As well, there is a recovery of $125,000 for the day care at the new French first language school. There was a delay in the processing of the claim with the federal government, and the funds had been paid in previous years for this facility.
Mr. Phillips: If anyone in this House has ever had an insurance claim, they know that it sometimes can be somewhat frustrating waiting for the insurance company to replace the item. My concern here is not so much for the school, because we know that that's going to happen over a period of time, but the personal items of the teachers, the staff, the school - are they satisfied now? Did they move fairly quickly on that, and have they all been satisfied with respect to their own personal items that they lost in the fire?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: All of the teachers who lost personal belongings have been paid out and have signed off their insurance claims. We did make that a priority because, as the member knows, it's very traumatic to lose personal belongings. It has been a difficult transition time, not just for the teachers, but for the whole community.
Capital Expenditures for the Department of Education in the amount of $5,176,000 agreed to
Department of Education agreed to
Department of Justice
Chair: Is there any general debate?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The Department of Justice supplementary estimates show a reduction in the O&M expenditures and an increase in the capital expenditures. I do have detailed breakdowns that I can either provide now or provide in the line items after general debate.
Mr. Cable: I have some general questions on issues that have been asked over the last little while, and I indicated one of the issues to the minister's executive assistant this morning. The limitation period on sexual abuse, civil proceedings - I had asked the minister a question about this during the budget debate and she had indicated, if I recollect correctly, that she'd be looking at that. Is there a status report she can give the House on that?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, I guess the short answer to the status report would be that yes, I have looked at the subject. As the member knows, the way the Statute of Limitations is presently set up, once a survivor of abuse is aware of the abuse - and in some cases there's a suppression of those memories until perhaps counselling occurs or perhaps later in life when these events are recalled - there is a six-year period during which they can file suits against their abuser.
I'm aware that some jurisdictions have passed legislation to look at ways of being more supportive of victims, as the member knows, because we've been through the legislation already in this session. We haven't brought anything forward to the House in this session, but I'm still considering the possibilities.
Mr. Cable: I think the minister is probably aware that some judges have sort of tortured the language of the limitations acts to provide victims' redress, going back to where their memories have started to focus. It is my suggestion to the minister that this be done through a legislative section, rather than have the judiciary trying to squeeze people through the words.
Has she reached a conclusion as to whether legislation is necessary to permit people who have their memories blanked out and then, many, many years later, have their memories opened up on their childhood experiences?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: No, I haven't reached a conclusion on that. What I would like to suggest - and I thank the member for his comments - is that, following completion of this legislative session, perhaps in the new year I could sit down with the member opposite and discuss the issue with him and listen to his recommendations, as well as present him with the information that the department has prepared for me.
Mr. Cable: One of the other issues I mentioned to the minister this morning during the briefing is the Crown devolution. I understand that the federal Justice minister was going to prepare a briefing paper - or discussion paper, I guess it was going to be called. Where does that sit?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I hope to find out shortly where that does sit. As I've mentioned to the member, since the federal election we do have a new federal Minister of Justice. There is a Justice ministers meeting scheduled for later this week, and I hope to meet the new federal minister at that time and follow up with her on the transfer of the Crown attorney function to the Yukon.
We had previously been informed that the consultation paper would be completed by September and then October and then November, so it's now December 1. I will be following up with the federal minister on when we can anticipate having that paper available.
The Stein Lal report was commissioned, I believe, in 1995, and presented to the previous administration. That report called for a time frame of completing the transfer by the year 2000. I will be following up with the federal minister.
Mr. Cable: That report, of course, didn't see the light of day so there wasn't much public discussion on it. It didn't see the light of day with the public.
Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)
Mr. Cable: Well, that's not the story I got, but in any event, on the Crown devolution, has there been some internal departmental review of the various options that are available for the devolution of the Crown?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, it's fairly difficult to make much progress on this subject without the cooperation of the federal government. So, I'm waiting to have a chance to sit down with the new federal minister and see if we can, in fact, expedite the process. I hope that may occur over the next couple of years.
Mr. Cable: One of the problems or one of the apprehensions that people have in a smaller jurisdiction like this - and of course, we've had newspaper coverage on this - is contact between politicians and justice officials with the law enforcement and law administration agencies.
One of the ways that we have, in Canada, gotten around the apprehensions of interference is the Nova Scotia model, with respect to the Crown attorney's office, where the Crown attorney is treated as an independent public prosecutor and messages given to the Crown attorney's office, either with respect to individual cases or by way of general guidelines, are all made public and, in fact, I believe are Gazetted. These recommendations came out of the McDonald inquiry, the McDonald Commission.
What is the minister's thinking on the use of the independent director of public prosecutions - I guess it's called? What's her thinking on that particular model?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, I do believe that this is more in the nature of general debate that we could continue in the main estimates in the new year. However, I can give the member a preliminary response.
Certainly, in every jurisdiction in Canada the independence of the prosecutions office and the independence of the judiciary are fundamental principles. I believe in those principles and want to uphold them.
The Nova Scotia model is one model that is used and I would say to the member opposite that the model in place in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba - all the provinces and the federal government - are based on the prosecutor's office operating according to the principle of the right thing to do, not according to what the political masters are asking them to do. I can assure the member that I'm fully supportive of that principle of independence and that any model that we look at will be built on that.
Mr. Cable: Well, belief and support are one thing, but perception by the public, of course, is another thing, and that's what the confidence level in the institutions is based on. It's the perception that people have of their institutions. Let me encourage the minister to look long and hard at the Nova Scotia model that has built-in checks and balances within it, and also, to a lesser extent, the British Columbia model, where instructions on particular files have to actually be Gazetted. This is my understanding of how the British Columbia model works so that there isn't any perception whatsoever of any invisible instructions between politicians or public servants and the Justice department with the Crown attorney's office.
On another issue, the child support guidelines, I believe the minister was looking at that and I think it was her original intention to bring those forward. Where do those sit, and what is her intention with respect to them?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, first of all, I would like to respond that the federal government itself has not been immune to charges of a perception of a conflict of interest and indeed it has been charged that they have been in conflict on some high-profile cases. Regardless of that, any model in place needs to be built on the principle of independence.
With regard to the child support guidelines, I would like to inform the member that he is correct that the Canadian Bar Association, Yukon Chapter, family law subsection, has requested that we give them further time to look at the contemplated changes to the Yukon legislation to comply with the child support guidelines. We have agreed to that request and will continue our consultations with the family law subsection of the Canadian Bar Association.
Mr. Cable: Is it the minister's intention then to bring in the guidelines in the next legislative session, which would be the fall of 1998?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: That is our intent at this time, Mr. Chair, subject to the discussions that will continue with the legal community and with others.
Mr. Cable: There was a blurb in the news about a month and a half ago on a community police station at F.H. Collins. I wonder if the minister could advise us as to what sort of success that's had. Is it working? Are there other schools planned, and what's the role of the YTG?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The school resource officer program that is now in place at F.H. Collins, at Vanier Secondary and Porter Creek Secondary have, I believe, been a success, but they're relatively new. They've only been in place since this fall. They've been supported by the Department of Education and Justice and by the RCMP. The thinking behind it is that when students are able to see a police officer in the school, and maybe build a relationship with him, they're maybe going to recognize an officer when he or she may be attending at a bush party, so there are already some people that may be known to the officer and this may help the dynamics in the future.
As well, the whole community policing initiative has involved the community at large recognizing that it's important for not just students but for all the public to see that police officers are members of the community as well, and that they often volunteer their time in helping with sports activities at the high schools.
Mr. Cable: The minister is going to be speaking to the federal Justice minister in the next day or so. Does she plan to speak to the Young Offenders Act? Is that on her agenda?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I believe that the Young Offenders Act is on the agenda for the meeting. I can certainly provide the member with a report when I return from the meeting.
Mr. Cable: Just out of curiosity, what position is the Government of Yukon going to put forward on the naming of young offenders for serious crimes? As the minister's undoubtedly aware, young offenders cannot be named in the media.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I believe that there have been some changes made to the Young Offenders Act which allow for the naming of offenders in cases where there are crimes of a serious, violent nature. I don't have those notes with me in the House, so I'd like to come back to the member with that. But in cases where there have been serious violent crimes committed, and it is in the public interest to name the young offenders, I believe that those provisions are already in place, and we support them.
Mr. Cable: The minister may be better informed than I am on that particular subject and it would be useful to get her information on that.
With respect to the Harbans Randhawa case that has been going on in the Yukon now for, what is it, the better part of a decade, has Mr. Randhawa been paid out yet?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: That payment would go through the Public Service Commission, I believe, and I'm not certain whether the payment has been made. I do know that there was recently a ruling from the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal and I believe that the final payment is in process. I would have to confirm that with the Public Service Commission minister.
Mr. Cable: Would the minister do that - confirm the status of the payment? Could she also confirm whether it's her government's intention to appeal the Human Rights Tribunal finding or whether the government has accepted that finding?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I will provide the member with answers to those questions after speaking with my colleagues.
Mr. Cable: I have some questions on legal aid and on the Correctional Centre, and I believe they are probably best left until we get to the correctional services line item.
In legal aid, where have you got that in the budget? Is it under legal services?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, it's under legal services.
Mr. Cable: All right, I'll deal with it in those two line items, then.
Mr. Phillips: The Stein Lal report was a report that was done when we were in government and I was the Minister of Justice, and the report - we wanted to make the report public but Alan Rock, the federal Minister for Justice at the time, was reluctant to do so. Does the minister plan to make the same request that we made of the new federal Justice minister to make the Stein Lal report public, because I think it would generate some discussion if the general public saw the position that the federal government was taking with respect to devolution of the Crown attorney's office.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm certainly not adverse to making that request. I believe that it may in some respects have been superseded by events. What we are hoping to move forward with at this stage is a discussion paper that both the Yukon government and the federal government have contributed to and agreed to, and provide that to the public for comment and move forward to a resolution to this long-standing request on the part of the Yukon government to be responsible for the Crown attorney function.
I can come back to the member after the meeting with the federal minister and indicate to him what the next step will be.
Mr. Phillips: Well, I guess it's another one of those federal reports that's going to sit on the shelf, cost us a few thousand dollars and a bunch of time of our officials and the officials of the N.W.T. to do, and nothing is going to happen to it. I guess it's not real surprising.
I wish the minister well on the new initiative. Maybe the minister should get a commitment from the new Minister of Justice that this one won't sit on the shelf and that as a result of the discussions that the minister will have, it will be allowed to be made public, so that the public can know where this is going. Because, it seems like, since the last one is going to die a quiet death on someone's shelf, it is a shame and waste of taxpayers' money to even have started it. So, we'll leave that one with the minister and we'll see where we go with the new discussion.
I've raised with the minister my concerns over maintenance enforcement, and in particular, some of the ways that some individuals are treated or feel they've been treated with respect to their claim. One issue that I've raised with the minister is searches internally in the government to determine whether or not an individual has any assets.
Has the minister looked into that any further? I know that there was a request asked, and in this particular case a search was done by the department. They found nothing. The individual who was due the funds from the fellow who skipped the territory, it was shown, even within the minister's own offices in the Department of Justice, the land department and consumer and corporate affairs, that this individual had significant assets. Yet the Department of Justice did a search and I'm not sure where they searched, but they came up empty.
So, I just wonder if the minister has had an opportunity to look into that, and whether or not we've changed our procedure for carrying out these searches to determine whether an individual does have assets.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I can tell the member that I believe what has happened following the phone calls that we had in regard to one specific case from the claimant directly and from the member opposite is that the maintenance enforcement staff were trained by the officials in the land titles office on conducting a search in relation to property. I believe that the property of the non-custodial parent has had something registered against it in order to provide for the maintenance enforcement payments.
Mr. Phillips: Okay, Mr. Chair, so this is as a result of the issues that the complainant brought up and that I brought up with the minister. Okay, I haven't talked to the complainant in the last couple of days.
So, what the minister is telling us is that there has been a training program put in place since these discussions took place to allow the people in maintenance enforcement to get a better idea of the search procedures, and that something is actually happening in this particular case now, and that a claim has been filed.
Can the minister tell us, then, if they will produce a sort of how-to form for the staff in maintenance enforcement with respect to all areas that they should be searching - not just land titles, not just consumer and corporate affairs? There may be other areas that officials in the minister's department are aware of that one should search if they're trying to find someone's assets, and it might be useful to provide a one-pager or a two-pager or whatever it is that would be information that our staff in the Department of Justice in maintenance enforcement could use in a sort of a step-by-step check to ensure that an individual who has skipped the territory or is refusing to pay their maintenance support so that the government can move quickly to either recover some money or register a lien against the particular property?
I just suggest to the minister that I know they did some training. I think that's a good idea, but just make a one-pager or whatever that they'd have handy for them to use in the future for these kinds of cases.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: It is a priority for this government to ensure that the maintenance enforcement program is as effective as it can possibly be. We will certainly continue to look for ways to improve the training that's available to the maintenance enforcement officers, and I believe the member's suggestion has some merit. I think it's something that, if we haven't seen done yet, we can look at doing in the future.
Mr. Phillips: I was also told by the complainant that when a file is moved from one territory - our territory in particular - to another province, they sort of go on to a waiting list or they get dealt with in the order that they're received. The concern that this individual, the complainant, had was that they were told that - in this case, it was Saskatchewan - it might be three months before the individual's file was dealt with.
I thought we had a reciprocal agreement where things could be dealt with in a timely manner. I mean, somebody skips out in November - it's November, December, January - you've got the Christmas season, you've got the middle of the winter, probably the most difficult time for an individual to try and get through. If it sits on somebody's desk in Saskatchewan for two or three months, it makes it rather difficult. They were told that they were lucky that it wasn't Ontario, because in Ontario it might be up to six or eight months, or even longer.
So I just wonder if the minister does have - if she could bring back for the House what the waiting period would be, Mr. Chair, if she could come back to the House with a list of the various provinces that we have agreements with and what their waiting period might be on a request, and if we have a waiting period on this side. If someone transfers to the territory, Mr. Chair, do we have a waiting period? Do they go on a list and be dealt with on a priority manner? Do we deal with them fairly quickly, or does it take three weeks, or a month, or what?
Maybe the minister can get back to us on that.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I know that we do have reciprocal arrangements in place with many of the jurisdictions across Canada. I believe that, since we came to government, there have been two more agreements in place with Ontario and one other province that have been added on to the jurisdictions we already had agreements with for enforcement of maintenance payments.
I can bring back for the member a list of what the normal processing time is in each jurisdiction. In relation to the specific case that the member is referring to, his question in regard to putting a garnishee on a federal payment, such as the income tax payment or unemployment insurance payments, is something that there is a charge for. The federal government has requested that only the jurisdiction that will be enforcing that charge be the jurisdiction that applies to see that the charge is levied, because it's charged back against the non-custodial parent.
Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I don't have a problem with the federal requirement. What I have a problem with, though, is in late October, November and December these kinds of things could arise where an individual moves from the territory to another province and in this particular case, the file was transferred.
The individual in question has been known, in the past, to file his income tax extremely early in the year - probably by e-mail early in the year and, by the first three weeks of January, may have his return in hand. By the time we communicate this to the Saskatchewan government or another government, it'll be too late.
So, I think that we should deal with this in a manner that we give priority to trying to recover the money that's due as quickly as possible. So, if we look at this and we realize it's going to take a month or two for it to be activated in Saskatchewan, then we file the federal intervention under the Income Tax Act and we hold the file until we at least do that so that at least the person has an opportunity to put a garnishee against the income tax return. Because what's going to happen now, sorry to say, is that it might be lost in the mail just because of the time it takes for it to get into the Saskatchewan offices for them to deal with it and sign it. By the time it's all done through the holiday season, this individual may have received his rebate from his income tax and the complainant will be right out of luck. It will be too late and so we should have something in place for at least the last couple of months in the year. So, if there's a transfer, we can deal with something like an income tax garnishment because, if we don't and somebody files early in the year, we've lost an opportunity. That's all I'm suggesting to the minister; maybe we can look at another way of doing this with the priority being on recovering this money that we know this individual will receive probably fairly early in January.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, as I've stated, the priority is to ensure that the maintenance enforcement program is effective. In relation to the specific case that the member is talking about, I know that it has been referred to the staff in the maintenance enforcement office in the Yukon. I also know that we have been following up with Saskatchewan to ensure that they deal quickly with this case. My understanding is that when a respondent moves to another jurisdiction, the file is transferred to the jurisdiction where the respondent lives. That is why we have in place reciprocal enforcement arrangements with the other provinces and territories.
I have put forward the request that this case be dealt with expeditiously and we can get back to the member with some details on where it stands.
Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I thank the minister for that. Don't get me wrong. I think the maintenance enforcement staff in the Department of Justice do a great job, but all we're talking about here is a relatively new program with relatively new experiences in transferring cases and reciprocal agreements, and I think that, although there may be a procedure to transfer a claim from one jurisdiction to another, there may be an opportunity to look at what's best for the claimant, sometime, to deal quickly with a matter, like the income tax garnishee now, or some of the other initiatives that could have been done very quickly here.
So, I just suggest to the minister that, rather than, as soon as we know somebody's gone, shipping the file right away, we should look at what we could do very quickly to try and recover some funds. That's all I'm suggesting to the minister, and I commend the staff at the maintenance enforcement office. It's a very small staff and I hear a lot of positive things from a lot of individuals who are receiving their monies on a regular basis because of the work they're doing.
I think these are just some of the technical things that we're learning as we go along in this thing that maybe we could do more efficiently. So I just suggest that to the minister.
Ms. Duncan: I'd just like to ask the minister a few questions in terms of general debate in this particular Department of Justice.
I wonder if the minister could indicate if there was any action by her department, upon taking office, to review decisions whether or not to proceed with court action on specific cases? Was she given an outline of cases and decisions made, or an option made, whether or not to proceed with them, immediately after taking office?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, I'm trying to recall all of the many subject matters that we reviewed in this first year in office. I know that I did receive a report of cases that were ongoing. Perhaps, if the member has specific questions that she is getting at, if she can bring them forward I can review my notes and memories and see whether any changes transpired.
Ms. Duncan: I'll get to the specific point. There was a decision made to proceed with an action by the Government of Yukon with a company in what the trial judge has now described as an "absurd interpretation of events". I'm referring specifically to the case between the Government of Yukon and Klippert's Transfer Ltd. This case went ahead. There was a judgment issued on July 11 and subsequently filed with the court, found in favour of the plaintiff. It's my understanding that, although there's almost $50,000 in favour of the plaintiff, this money has yet to be paid out, although this judgment's about four and a half months old.
Would the minister advise on that, if she's aware of this particular case, and what the holdup is with this money?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: What I can advise the member is that the Department of Justice provides legal advice to the line departments, so in a case where a court action is as a result of a contract, it would likely be Government Services who has received legal advice from the Department of Justice, and there the decision is made, based on the merits of the case.
With regard to the specific example that she's quoting, I'm going to have to come back with an answer for her.
Ms. Duncan: This is one of those long, drawn-out cases of citizen versus the government. Would the minister take this question as urgent and indicate to her officials that this matter should be resolved as soon as possible?
I would also like the minister to come back with perhaps a written answer as to the cost to the government of proceeding in this action and, further, would she instruct her officials to work with the department concerned - Community and Transportation Services - to ensure that if there's an argument over cost, to haggle over cost later and get this judgment paid out to this particular company?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'd be happy to ask the officials of relevant departments to come forward with a prompt response to the member's request.
Mr. Cable: I've got a couple of other questions in general debate. With respect to the Stein Lal report, it's my understanding that there was some problems with the territories on the release of the report. Now, from what we've just heard from the ex-Justice minister, it's obvious they didn't arise in the Yukon. Could the minister take up with the federal minister the release of that report and report to her that all parties in this Legislature are in favour of the release of that report?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, I thank the member for his endorsement, and I'll try not to use his name in vain when I meet with the federal minister.
Mr. Cable: On another topic, I know the minister and I share the view that the bench, and perhaps the Judicial Council, should be more representative of the broader society, both in gender and in relation to, perhaps, racial characteristics here in the territory.
Does the minister, at some juncture in the future, intend to bring in legislation that would deal with the affirmative action in relation to either gender or racial characteristics with respect to the Judicial Council?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to share with the member opposite the report that we anticipate receiving from Ted Hughes in the new year. He will be looking at a number of questions in relation to the justice system in the Yukon, and I believe that there are a number of groups and organizations in the Yukon, including the legal community, the bench and the Judicial Council itself, which may be making representations to him on where they think there is room for improvement. I agree with the member that we need to enhance the public's confidence in the justice system. I also believe strongly that one of the ways of doing that is to ensure that all segments of society are represented in the decision making within all of our systems.
I hope that we can achieve some measure of success in making changes in that area, and I'd be very happy to work with the member opposite on that.
Mr. Cable: I think the main focus of Mr. Hughes' report will be the protocol for communications between elected officials and the bench in that sort of commentary on the past.
What I'm asking the minister is, what are her intentions in the future, after Mr. Hughes has reported and what not and indicated where we can go from here? What are her intentions in the future with respect to affirmative action? Is she prepared to bring in legislation to deal with that issue so there is some firm guidance to the Judicial Council and some firm guidance to the government in the making of appointments to the Judicial Council?
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I believe the member opposite has been provided with the order-in-council that has been passed that sets out the parameters for Mr. Hughes. They are broad in nature. I believe he may be asked to address these questions, as well as others.
Nonetheless, my intentions are no secret. I hope to work with the public to enhance public confidence in the justice system. I hope to hear from members of the public on ways that we can ensure there is broader-based participation.
I think that changing the composition of the Judicial Council might be one way of achieving that. I am looking forward to a discussion with my colleagues across the country, because this is not a problem unique to the Yukon. This is a circumstance that's in place right across the country, and I look forward to discussions on ways that we can ensure that the public does not feel alienated and can be assured that we have in place an effective process.
Mr. Cable: One of Mr. Hughes' mandates is for making recommendations, if he deems it appropriate, for amending the appointment process for judges of the court and for justices of the peace. Is the minister thinking that this is going to encompass rules with respect to affirmative action?
What I'm thinking about is something wider than his commentary on the mechanics of the legislation.
Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I think that this is a subject that we will continue to be discussing in the future. I would suggest to the member opposite that the order-in-council he is just quoting from and referring to is established to provide for a report by March 31, 1998, so it might be more appropriate for us to continue this discussion in general debate on the main estimates.
Mr. Cable: Okay, I'll accept the minister's suggestion. We will continue that discussion in the spring.
On the Motor Vehicles Act amendments, where people's licences were taken away for non-payment of fines and non-payment of maintenance support orde