Whitehorse, Yukon

Monday, March 23, 1998 - 1:30 p.m.

Clerk: It is my duty, pursuant to the provisions of section 24 of the Legislative Assembly Act, to inform the Legislative Assembly of the absence of the Speaker.

Deputy Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

We will proceed at this time with prayers. I would ask that members bow their heads in a moment of silent reflection.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Deputy Speaker: We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.

Tributes.

TRIBUTES

Tribute to participants in Arctic Winter Games

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise today to acknowledge the tremendous achievements of our athletes, coaches, cultural contingent and mission staff who represented Yukon so well at the Arctic Winter Games in Yellowknife last week. I had the privilege of being in Yellowknife for the first three days of competition to cheer on and support our team members, as I am sure members will attest from my throat.

Mr. Speaker, I've never been so proud to be a Yukoner as I was over those three days. Our young athletes provided some outstanding performances, earning medals and achieving personal bests in the process. Heather Lang earned five gold medals and a silver, competing in Arctic sports competition for the very first time. Heather's performance was the best overall of 1,600 athletes competing in the games.

Our snowshoe athletes captured a total of 14 medals, while our cross country ski team earned widespread recognition, winning a total of 11 medals, led by the performances of Stephen Hutton and Nathan Doering.

In the Dene games competition, Jordan Caesar and John Acklack Jr. from Ross River, along with Edwin and Dwayne McGinty from Teslin, earned the respect of all the Dene games competitors and elders by winning the stick gambling competition in a convincing fashion.

This is only a sample of the many successes Yukon enjoyed at the games. However, Mr. Speaker, the games are about much more than winning medals. They are about adults taking the time to help our young people to grow and to develop and to feel good about themselves. I saw our coaches providing positive support to our athletes, helping to celebrate their achievements while consoling them in moments of disappointment. The Arctic Winter Games are also about young people supporting and helping each other to get through the tough times and to overcome adversity.

In short, the games are about young and old learning about values and celebrating life. Mr. Speaker, the games are about Yukon parents filling a plane to travel to Yellowknife to support their children throughout the week of competition. The games are also about a team of Yukon and Magadan soccer players living together in shared accommodation, becoming friends and then supporting each other at games throughout the week, and ironically, Mr. Speaker, these same teams met with each other in the gold-medal match. They were tied at the end of regulation time and remained tied at the end of overtime. Yukon lost the shoot-out, but the players from both teams shared in the friendships they had formed and both shared a mutual victory.

Mr. Speaker, it is important that governments continue to invest in developing young people through their participation in events such as the Arctic Winter Games. It is also important that we continue to invest in the development of skilled coaches and leaders to ensure that our young people have positive role models to learn from and become those skilled coaches and leaders.

It's important that we continue to support our Host Society to put on a successful event when it's the Yukon's turn to host. The 1998 games are now history but we all look forward to hosting this important international event when athletes from across the north come to join us in Whitehorse in the year 2000.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I'm thrilled to acknowledge Team Yukon's achievement in winning the prestigious Hodgson's trophy that is awarded to the unit that best exemplifies the spirit of the games and demonstrates the values of fair play and respect for the officials and other players. This achievement is a credit to the calibre of our Yukon athletes, coaches, mission staff and the parents, and the Yukon's sport and recreation system. I know that all of you will join me in congratulating the Yukon's most successful performance in recent history at the Arctic Winter Games.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenkins: On behalf of the Yukon Party caucus and office of the official opposition, I wish to also extend congratulations to our many athletes who took part in the Arctic Winter Games held in Yellowknife last week.

Our Yukon team won an impressive show of 80 ulus at the games, placing fourth overall. As Yukoners, we can be very proud of our athletes and their achievements. This success is a demonstration of one's commitment to athletic excellence and can be attributed to a lot of hard work and perseverance, both of which our athletes have shown in their performance over the past week.

Mr. Speaker, the Arctic Winter Games are an opportunity for northerners to come together to not only compete but to learn from each other and to share in their friendship and camaraderie, and that's what makes the participation in these games such a unique and special experience. Regardless if one reaches the podium, everyone who trains and participates in these games are winners.

The 350-plus Yukon athletes who competed in the Arctic Winter Games are truly an inspiration to their fellow Yukon athletes for which we all can be proud. In fact, Mr. Speaker, both our pages here in the House today competed in the Arctic Winter Games - one in speed skating and one in hockey. Congratulations to both of our pages.

I would also like to recognize the volunteers, coaches and cultural performers for their hard work and tireless effort in making these games such a success and helping to make the games a memorable experience for each and every athlete.

Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the minister will comment at some convenient time as to the political direction being given the Arctic Winter Games committee to restrict games to youth only.

Once again, Mr. Speaker, our congratulations from all Yukoners to all Yukoners who participated for a job well done.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of the Yukon Liberal caucus. I say congratulations to all the participants of this year's Arctic Winter Games in Yellowknife. The Yukon showed well in all sports and all performances, and I say to all the athletes, coaches and performers of this year's Arctic Winter Games: you are simply the best.

In remembrance of June Pollock

Ms. Duncan: I rise today to pay tribute to June Agnes Newsome Pollock, who passed away recently. Mr. Speaker, I could rise and give this House a listing of June's many links within our community - a member of the Guild of Needlearts, the Ladies Auxiliary of the Hospital and, closest to my heart, a member of the great sisterhood of guiding.

June's volunteer efforts in these organizations will be deeply missed.

These activities do not convey the real essence of June Pollock. Mr. Speaker, the lifelong partner of Jim and mother to Janet, Joanne and Judy, and grandmother to their children, was one of those individuals who was the essence and spirit of the Yukon.

A wonderful and fitting celebration of her life was shared with many Yukoners this past Saturday.

June's spirit would be touched by the thoughts and feelings of those present. She led us by her example and she made a difference in our community.

The Yukon and all of us are better for having known June Pollock and our hearts and prayers are with her family and friends.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Deputy Speaker: Introduction of visitors.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Hardy: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to introduce somebody who is well-known in here, a former member of the Legislative Assembly, and the former representative of the riding that I now represent. I'd like everybody to acknowledge Margaret Commodore.

Applause

Deputy Speaker: Tabling of returns and documents.

TABLING RETURNS AND DOCUMENTS

Deputy Speaker: Under tabling returns and documents, I have for tabling the report of the Chief Electoral Officer of the Yukon on contributions to political parties during 1997.

Are there any further returns or documents for tabling?

Hon. Mr. McDonald: I have for tabling a legislative return.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I have a document for tabling, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: I have for tabling a legislative return.

Deputy Speaker: Are there any reports of committees?

Are there any petitions?

PETITIONS

Petition No. 5

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition on the subject of the Crossroads treatment centre, signed by close to 3,000 Yukoners, and the petition reads:

"We, the undersigned, draw the attention of the Yukon Legislative Assembly to the following:

"that the Crossroads Alcohol and Drug Treatment Centre has provided recovery and healing of individuals experiencing alcohol- and/or drug-related problems since 1972;

"that this community-based, non-profit society has a proven record in the Yukon;

"that the Crossroads Alcohol and Drug Treatment Centre is committed to working in cooperation with the Yukon First Nation communities;

"that the Yukon government decision to stop funding to the Crossroads Alcohol and Drug Treatment Centre failed to include public consultations with Yukoners;

"that the Yukon government does not have the support of the majority of Yukoners in their decision to close Crossroads;

"and, therefore, that your petitioners call upon the Yukon Legislative Assembly to continue funding to the Crossroads Alcohol and Drug Treatment Centre to at least its current funding levels in the same location."

Deputy Speaker: Are there any other petitions to be presented?

Are there any bills to be introduced?

Are there any notices of motion?

Are there any statements by ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Training strategy (Yukon) revision

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to rise today to announce an important government initiative, in keeping with our action agenda commitment to create jobs and economic opportunities.

Today, the draft revision of the Yukon training strategy is being released for public consultation. In last year's Budget Address, this government promised to work with community leaders, labour, youth, educators, First Nations governments, industry and the federal government to identify opportunities for upgrading, apprenticeship and training programs.

The draft revision of the Yukon training strategy reflects input from Yukon people during various consultation exercises. These included Yukon College's education forums in 1995, Tourism's arts policy consultations, Economic Development's consultation on the CDF fund, and the Yukon hire commission consultations.

Over the past months, the Department of Education has worked with Yukon College, the Yukon hire commission, and key departments such as the Public Service Commission, Economic Development, Health and Social Services, and Tourism. Government departments and corporations recommended principles and broad concepts to consider in revising the training strategy.

The training strategy will support our government's initiative on trade and investment diversification. While it is important to maintain and enhance major private sector resource industries, it is equally important to broaden the territory's economic base in order to create more jobs for Yukon people.

The shutdown of the Faro mine increases the need to enhance training in other areas of economic activity. The training strategy will help to ensure that Yukon people have the skills to take advantage of emerging job opportunities.

During public consultations, we will collaborate with people in all Yukon communities to ensure that everyone can express their views on training. Building partnerships with all sectors of Yukon society will strengthen and increase the resources available for training and development initiatives.

In a changing economy, it is essential that training strategies remain current. An updated Yukon training strategy will increase our government's ability to invest training trust funds in different economic sectors as effectively as possible.

Mr. Speaker, this government is collaborating with Yukon people to create an up-to-date and responsive Yukon training strategy that will yield practical skills and job training opportunities for Yukon workers.

Thank you.

Mr. Phillips: On behalf of the Yukon Party caucus and the office of the official opposition, I rise today to offer support, albeit it somewhat conditional, to the Yukon training strategy revision.

Unfortunately, we haven't had an opportunity to see the draft revision. I would make a friendly suggestion to the minister. This is the second time that ministers have risen in this House in this session to give a ministerial statement on a report that they tabled. It would be conducive to more cooperative work in this House if, when they gave us the ministerial statement, embargoed, they provided a copy of the report that they were talking about in the ministerial statement, so we at least can comment on the contents of the report.

In any event, we on this side of the House do support the concept of a long-term training strategy that will train Yukoners with the end goal of putting Yukoners to work. While we welcome every opportunity for Yukon people to develop new skills and knowledge to find work, as we've mentioned on many occasions, it's every bit as important that there are jobs waiting for Yukoners at the end of the road.

In light of tough economic times these days, and with record high unemployment, it's incumbent upon government to create a positive economic environment that encourages the private sector to invest and create jobs. We do this by building on our strengths, and those are in the mining, the tourism, small business, construction and forestry, rather than embarking upon a process that discourages investment from the territory, as we've seen from this government over the past year and a half.

I'm hoping the government will be sincere in its commitment to work with Yukoners in all communities to ensure that everyone is heard and their views will be acted upon in a revised training strategy.

I recall back in May of 1992, the government of the day had tabled its first Yukon training strategy, which outlined a number of priorities that the government wished to focus on with respect to training opportunities for Yukoners.

I believe it's important to review and revise training strategies as employment opportunities are ever evolving, as are the changing demands of the workplace. It's encouraging that a review is being held to improve training programs available for Yukoners. Perhaps the government might consider a review of its own economic policies, Mr. Speaker, so that Yukoners have a job to go to, once the training is complete.

I look forward to reviewing the draft revision that the minister tabled a few moments ago, which we haven't had an opportunity to look at yet, and to see what Yukoners will say about that, what they have to say about training and the creation of jobs and the economic opportunities in the territory.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Ms. Duncan: On behalf of the Yukon Liberal Party caucus, I am pleased to rise to respond to this statement. I'd like to begin by saying that our caucus supports the notion that a trained workforce is essential for economic growth. One of the obstacles to starting a business or an industry is a lack of skilled workers. If a government can help to remove that obstacle, that's an appropriate and worthwhile objective.

In last year's budget, the NDP said they would set up a Yukon training strategy. Part of the strategy would include spending $1 million in training trust funds. This year's budget calls for an additional $1.5 million to be allocated to training trust funds. That's a total of $2.5 million. At the same time, the government's still out revising the overall strategy. It seems odd to me, and I'm sure to many Yukoners, that the money's being spent in the training trust fund model before the strategy's in place.

Can the minister provide, by legislative return, how much money has been spent under the various trust funds? I hope that part of the strategy would include a section on accountability of the success of the funds. The tourism training trust fund has been in place for some time. Are individuals getting the experience that they can use to find employment? Is the money spent wisely? Is the training trust fund model the appropriate one? Is the end result that more people are working? Perhaps the minister could elaborate on this when she responds.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to hear that the government is out consulting with Yukoners on developing the strategy and I look forward to reviewing the results.

Thank you.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm happy to reply to the opposition's qualified support for this initiative.

First of all, just to correct the record, the Yukon training strategy was first introduced in 1986 in the territory and it was revised in 1992. We do, in fact, have a training strategy in effect and what we are doing this year is providing the opportunity for the public to be involved in a further revision. As changes to the economy and the increasing use of technology are occurring, it's important that our training strategy remain current as well.

I look forward to the opposition's participation, as well as members of the public, in looking at ways that the training strategy can be effective for the future and to ensure that the training trust fund model is working.

I would state, Mr. Speaker, that the training trust fund model is effective. The training trust funds that are in place have had a positive effect in a number of economic sectors and on a number of communities, and we will continue to build on that success.

Thank you.

Rate stabilization fund and proposed community consultation

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to inform the House and all Yukon people today that our government, through the energy commission and the MLA for Kluane, has developed a proposal to deliver on our major policy commitment of stable and affordable electricity rates. I am referring to a new rate stabilization fund that will address the bottom-line cost most Yukoners face in their home electricity bills.

Mr. Speaker, electrical ratepayers are tired of the ups and downs of electrical costs that occur with the opening and closing of the Faro mine. They want stable, affordable rates. They've also made it clear that they want the government to take a long-term approach to address many energy issues.

In recent months, Yukon people have been led to believe an increase of at least 30 percent is inevitable following the closure of the Anvil Range mine.

Mr. Speaker, our government will not tolerate an increase of this magnitude being imposed on Yukon people during difficult economic circumstances.

I am pleased to announce that the rate stabilization fund we propose will moderate any electrical rate increase as a result of the mine closure to no more than nine percent in the first year, zero percent in the second year, zero percent in the third year and zero percent in the fourth year. These figures are based on the 1996 price, when the mine was operating.

Mr. Speaker, this demonstrates without question that our government is delivering on its commitment to provide stable, affordable rates for Yukon people.

Mr. Speaker, the energy commission will bring this rate stabilization fund proposal to the public through community consultations on energy issues. Starting next week in Carcross, commercial customers, communities, interveners and the utilities and others will have a chance to express their views on the rate stabilization fund. We will listen closely to what people say about it.

Mr. Speaker, we anticipate a high degree of interest from both groups and individuals. Our consultations will include special technical meetings to collect input on how to construct and operate the rate stabilization fund.

We have been informed, Mr. Speaker, that the Yukon Energy Corporation is working to keep its rate increase application significantly below the increase experienced after last year's mine shutdown. Yukon Energy Corporation expects to file its application with the Yukon Utilities Board in mid-April.

The YUB is expected to review the application through its regulatory process, and we should be prepared for a double-digit rate increase approved by the Utilities Board. Our objective is to activate the rate stabilization fund in time to hold the increase to nine percent and stabilize bills for at least a four-year period.

The rate stabilization fund we are proposing would be self-financing and funded initially from dividends of the Yukon Development Corporation. It would be replenished as industrial customers come online. The RSF would draw funds normally earmarked for rate relief and still allow us to consider targeted relief to those who need it most.

Mr. Speaker, we are taking this approach now because we recognize that things are tight for many people. We must do what we can to moderate the effect of the Anvil Range Mine closure. Minimizing an electricity rate increase to nine percent will help meet that goal. It will ease the sting of electrical costs for most of those consumers who are currently receiving the benefit of the Yukon government's rate relief program.

Mr. Speaker, this concrete action on a long-term policy commitment is a clear response to a public concern. We promised stability and affordability, and we are delivering.

The consultations that start next week will allow Yukon people to become involved as individuals at the community level and in technical meetings designed to address complex energy matters in detail.

While the new rate stabilization fund promises to attract interest, the commission will also seek the opinions of Yukon people, including members of the public who serve on the Yukon Energy Corporation's board of directors, on a variety of important and topical energy issues. These include conservation initiatives, community energy management, and principles of energy supply options for this territory.

The commission will host technical meetings, including one on community energy management, with First Nations, municipalities, community representatives and other interested Yukon groups and individuals.

The concept of community energy management involves communities directly in managing their energy consumption. It also provides real benefits in terms of cost savings, energy conservation and local employment.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, the consultations will help produce recommendations on various matters that will soon lead to a made-in-the-Yukon comprehensive energy policy.

Thank you.

Mr. Ostashek: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, prior to the last election, the NDP campaigned on stabilizing energy rates and keeping them affordable for Yukoners. That was the promise they made to Yukoners.

What Yukoners have experienced since then has been an ever-increasing price for energy. Now we're told by the minister today that they're going to face another nine-percent increase.

If that's what the NDP government calls stable and affordable energy pricing, I would like to let them know that Yukoners are sick to death of it.

Mr. Speaker, this government is half announcing today what they're going to do on public consultation. They have said they're going to stabilize the rates at nine percent in the first year, with no increases in the next three years after that. But, what the minister hasn't said - and I would like him, maybe when he gets up for his rebuttal, to reply to it - is that, from my interpretation of this, if a major commercial customer or industrial user comes on, then the rates will not go down. They will be stabilized at that higher level, with another nine-percent increase on top of it. That is my understanding of this ministerial statement today.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like the minister to tell Yukoners today how large the fund will be to start with and where the Energy Corporation is going to get their money for the capital works they are going to do if all of the money is going to be going into rate stabilization.

We still say, on this side of the House, that the only way one could stabilize energy in the territory and make it affordable is to find a lower cost source of energy in the Yukon.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cable: The Liberal caucus feels that the rate stabilization fund is a viable option for what it's intended to do, and we support the concept in principle. There are some questions with respect to the fund that have been touched on by the leader of the official opposition. How much is to be transferred? How much is in the Yukon Development Corporation? Will the transfer affect the activities of the Yukon Development Corporation?

With respect to the administration of the fund, who is going to administer it? Is it going to be administered by trustees or by the Yukon Energy Corporation? What investments is it going to be entitled to invest in? Is it going to be investing in market securities, or is it going to be able to loan the money back to the government?

As well, a technical question: will the fund itself be part of the rate base for purposes of calculating return on equity and, if so, is there going to be any statutory or regulatory followup on the concept?

With respect to the nine percent that's talked about in the ministerial statement, it's not clear what the base is. Is it the present rate regime with the rate relief incorporated into it, or is it nine percent over the present regime, without the rate relief? That will make a fairly marked difference in some of the residential rates.

Now the ministerial statement is long on comments about stabilization, but it's short on comments on affordability and what it means. Is it the government's proposition - I put this to the minister - that, after the nine percent maximum increase over the present rates, that the rates are then affordable, and that the NDP election commitment has been met?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Let me first address the concerns raised by the leader of the official opposition. Mr. Speaker, since this government has come into office, we have had a very difficult situation in terms of managing the energy situation in this territory. In just 16 months in government, we have had the Faro mine shut down, which is a 40-percent customer of the output of the Yukon Energy Corporation. We have had to struggle with some very difficult issues, but ever since the day we took office, Mr. Speaker, we said we would tackle the tough issue of ending the roller-coaster ride for Yukoners on their power bills, that we would deal with stabilization issues and affordability issues in very tough times.

We have done that, Mr. Speaker. What we've brought forward today is an extensive proposal for doing just that.

The member opposite made the statement that there's been an ever-increasing cost in the price of power. That is a false statement.

Since we came into power, just recently a 5.5 percent appeal rider came off of the bills that are dated back to 1993 from when he was the minister. It is expected that in May or June there will be a further reduction of 3.3 percent when the diesel rider comes off.

As well, Mr. Speaker, the public of the Yukon clearly saw that when there was a 20 percent rate increase approved last year as a result of the first shutdown in our term with the Faro mine we took action to deal with that to bring the rate increase down to 7.5 percent. That whole amount came off when the mine fired back up again.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite has completely, in his normal way, been negative to this. He's not happy with the so-called nine-percent solution we put forward. Mr. Speaker, that is the same member who's been running around in the public, on the radio, in the media telling people that there's a 30 percent rate hike coming.

He's raising fears and what we've done is we've responded that we had a thoughtful, deliberate approach to this situation, that we would come forward with some solutions for Yukoners - never mind the political partisan back and forthing in this Legislature. We put forward some concrete plans and that's what we've done today. So, Mr. Speaker, shame on that member for pooh-poohing this.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite also talked about the fact that he doesn't know whether the rates would come down with this rate stabilization when the mine went back up. I would remind that member that when he was the minister responsible for the Yukon Energy Corporation, the rates for residential customers went up dramatically - over 30 percent when the Faro mine went down in 1993. When the mine came back up again in 1996, the rates didn't go down one iota for Yukoners.

That did not happen under this administration.

This is a new plan to deal with the situation. It deals with ending the roller-coaster rider for Yukoners. It deals with providing capital for the maintenance and the consistent upgrade of our system, and it provides affordability and it provides that in very difficult circumstances for our utility which is owned by all Yukoners.

I say to the people of the Yukon that we are tackling the tough issues for you. We are bringing stability and a plan and ideas for the future of this territory.

Thank you.

Deputy Speaker: This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Whitehorse community centre project

Mr. Phillips: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development.

This is concerning the Whitehorse community centre project. Mr. Speaker, we've heard through the grapevine that the federal Minister of Heritage, Sheila Copps, is coming to the Yukon in the not-too-distant future to announce the $3-million funding for the construction of the community centre project being spearheaded by the Unity Foundation. On February 24, the minister fired off a letter to the federal government saying it was time to "fish or cut bait". Well, it would appear that the minister might have caught something here.

Can the minister advise the House when the federal Minister of Heritage will be coming to the Yukon to make the announcement? I know that she's going to be here in July for the music festival, but I'd like to know if the minister is aware if the minister's going to make the announcement then, or is she coming up sooner. Could the minister give us any update on his knowledge on that?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, it appears that the member opposite has better contacts than we do. Perhaps he's been talking to his friends in the third party to his left. Certainly, I have received no confirmation formally of Minister Copps' visit nor of a $3-million cheque for the Unity Foundation, but certainly that would be quite a wonderful thing.

Mr. Phillips: Well, I can assure the minister, Mr. Speaker, that it is not the parties to our left, the Liberals, whom I have contacts with; it's people in the general public, with whom the government has lost contact with themselves, who are passing this information on to us.

Mr. Speaker, I know the Unity Foundation is solidly behind the project, but I've heard concerns from other groups and associations about the potential impact the centre will have on facilities such as the Yukon Arts Centre and the Mount McIntyre Centre. As well, the Tourism Industry Association has expressed concerns about this project lacking tourism content. The Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce is concerned about it, and I know that the Convention Bureau has had discussions about this type of facility.

Is the government fully supportive of the Yukon Unity Foundation proposal, and will it be committing the $1.5 million from the centennial anniversaries tourism money to the Whitehorse community centre project?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, as a government, we don't have a parochial view of general revenues. We try to respond to Yukoners where the greatest need is, and we believe that that's the appropriate way for government to operate in this territory - listening to Yukoners, identifying their priorities and trying to respond to them.

Mr. Speaker, I'm well-aware that the Yukon Party is opposed to this project. They've wanted to kill it dead since the day it was conceived. We have resisted that, because we do have some belief that the proponents in the Unity Foundation have got some good ideas. They put a lot of work into this project. We think it does have some utility for this territory, and we think it could have some important impetus in terms of bringing people together.

However, we've said, as a result of it being the CAP project, which was brought forward by the Yukon Party, that there was an outstanding commitment that we would try to see through. It has gotten now to the point though where it is solely dependent on whether the federal government comes through with the necessary dollars to see it become a reality.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Speaker, we in the official opposition are not opposed to the unity project. What we're opposed to is that it doesn't conform to the CAP guidelines with respect to tourism, and that the strongest tourism component - the First Nation component - is going to be moved out of the facility. It's not even going to be in it.

As the minister well knows, other Yukon communities had to abide by the CAP guidelines and build facilities that would add to Yukon's tourism infrastructure. Can the minister assure the House that the First Nations heritage village, which is the strongest tourism component of the Whitehorse community project, is still a part of the project? And will the minister insist that it be built at the site and indicate to us as well when the minister is on his feet, since there is no money in this budget, where the $1.5 million will come from when this project goes ahead?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite can stand up and split hairs all he wants. It's well-known to the proponents of the Unity Foundation - Kwanlin Dun First Nation, the Association des Franco-Yukonnais and the Downtown Community Association - that the official opposition, the Yukon Party, has wanted to deep-six this thing from the very beginning.

Mr. Speaker, we have resisted that. We've worked with the communities in Teslin, communities in Ross River and the community of Whitehorse to try and see whether or not their ideas and their creations that they put forward for the CAP project could become realities.

We've tried very hard to do that, to be accommodating, to listen and work with Yukoners. We're still doing that in Teslin, and we made the Ross River project a reality.

We are very proud of that, Mr. Speaker, because those communities need that kind of effort from that government.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, there is money in the budget. There's $400,000 identified in the budget. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, with the challenges of bringing this project together, we have significant money in the budget to bring these projects ahead and certainly complete the design and architectural work. Then, we would move in the capital budget to try and find the other commitment that we have made.

Question re: Gasoline prices

Mr. Jenkins: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Economic Development.

For the past six weeks, I've been raising the issue of Yukoners paying too much for gasoline. During that time, we've all heard a lot of gobbledegook about why the prices were too high, even some of it from the minister himself, who blamed the current high prices on the current Yukon Party government's tax on fuel, which, by the way, is not only the lowest in Canada, but continues to be the lowest in Canada.

Now we've heard from an independent expert from the University of Manitoba, confirming that Yukoners indeed are being hosed at the pumps by the refineries and the wholesalers, not by the local service station distributors.

Can I ask the minister when this government is finally going to take some action and do something about these ripoff gas prices? Is he favouring a price cap or a lobbying campaign to embarrass the big oil companies or what? Now that this government has woken up to the fact that there is indeed a problem, what is he going to do about it?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the member opposite would just bear with me, of course his colleagues in the Yukon Party had four years to deal with the situation and did absolutely nothing on it. We are concerned. We are concerned about what Yukoners are telling us about the issue. We've been doing an analysis of it.

I was on the radio talking to Yukoners this morning about the fact that there are a number of options for consideration. I find it somewhat ironic, though, to have the so-called defenders of free enterprise advocating for the government to step in and put price fixing in place and establish some caps. However, we have not ruled out even that option, even though it would be extremely difficult to do.

I've told the member opposite that we intend to bring forward an analysis document in the Legislature. I hope to have it this week. From that, we will spawn some discussion with Yukoners on a very quick and accelerated basis and develop a strategy.

We are more than happy to raise serious concerns with the major oil companies about the charging that their refineries are doing and how it's affecting Yukoners at the pumps. We don't like it either.

Mr. Jenkins: Mr. Speaker, the minister has not got the luxury of time. Already today OPEC countries have indicated they're going to be reducing the supply in order to bring up the price of a barrel of oil. By the time the minister reacts, prices will be going up in the Yukon again.

Can the minister advise the House what immediate action he is going to take, and will he be giving a commitment here today that the high Yukon fuel prices will be reduced? Can he give the House and Yukoners that assurance today, Mr. Speaker?

Hon. Mr. Harding: I could probably stand up today, Mr. Speaker, and give all kinds of assurances that I could wave my magic wand, and perhaps I could turn the member opposite into a toad. I wouldn't do that, Mr. Speaker, but I could promise all kinds of things. Perhaps it'll be like this: the weather will be like this for another two weeks, if I just wave my magic wand, and that will be so.

But Mr. Speaker, that's not the way things work. We have heard the concern of Yukoners. Mr. Speaker, I might remind the member opposite that just last week he was advocating for a public inquiry. Now, how long would that have taken for things to work? It would have taken months. The last public inquiry we had in this territory - the Hughes inquiry - took months. The last fuel inquiry took months. So we don't want to acquiesce to his initial suggestion. We don't want to do that. What we want to do is act in a quicker fashion. That's why we're doing the analysis. That's why we'll put that out to the public. That's why we'll develop a strategy. That's why we'll come forward to Yukoners with some solutions and try and see if we can do something about ensuring that there's some reduction in the fuel prices.

Mr. Jenkins: Well, from this toad to the big toad over there, we hope he's going to jump off his lilypad and start to do something for Yukoners, Mr. Speaker. Everyone knows that, in the past, when the price of a barrel of oil goes up, we are immediately impacted by higher gasoline prices at the pumps here in the Yukon. However, Mr. Speaker, the reverse is not true; that we know.

Now the minister can waltz all around and give us a song and dance, but what is he going to do? He can't just study this until the end of time, until the price of a barrel of oil doubles again, and he says it's a market condition - that's what's giving rise to the increase in prices.

Clearly, the government has missed the boat and the time frame around it this time, but I would ask the minister if he will put a contingency plan in place so that he will be able to deal with this issue again, should it ever arise.

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, I only wish that the Yukon Party government would have prepared that same contingency plan for me. I could have pulled it off the shelf and reacted immediately to this problem. However, we didn't anticipate that the price of crude oil would drop to $14 a barrel. However, recognizing the concern that Yukoners have raised with us, we are trying to deal with it.

There are many issues involved in this situation that affect the price at the pump - whether it's the lack of volume purchasing we have, whether it's the inventories that affect the price, whether it's the fact that refineries control the price to an extensive degree and the actual price of crude oil is only about 15 percent of the pump price, or whether it's the fact that we don't have a lot of competition in the Yukon.

I want the Yukon and Yukoners to know what the full extent of the picture is. We can do that fairly quickly. I've told the member I intend to table something ...

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Harding: ... hopefully this week in the Legislature, and then we'll put together a plan and we'll act on it.

Question re: Electrical rate stabilization

Mr. Cable: I have some questions for the minister responsible for the Yukon Energy Corporation. He got so carried away with his own rhetoric trying to bounce one off the leader of the official opposition that he didn't answer any questions, so I'll ask the questions again.

I wonder if the minister would tell us all about the stabilization fund, how much is going to be transferred into it, and who is going to control it, and what investments is it going to be permitted to make?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, Mr. Speaker, we expect that the actual cost of the fund over the next four years will be roughly $9 million. There are some issues around whether or not the diesel contingency fund would be utilized to contribute to it. That would be a decision we would leave up to some consultations with the stakeholders.

With regard to the rate stabilization fund, we expect it to be administered by the Energy Corporation but, as always, we expect to hear from many Yukoners on the subject and we are open to consulting with them, to talking with them about the various issues. But the bottom-line premise that we're working under, Mr. Speaker, is ending the roller-coaster ride and providing some stability and affordability for Yukoners as they face their bills, as they pay their bills on a monthly basis, and we deal with the difficult situation surrounding the Faro mine coming on and off the grid over the last 16 months.

Mr. Cable: Well, let's talk about the stabilization then. The commissioner's statement talks about a nine-percent maximum increase. Could the minister tell us, what's the base for that nine-percent increase? Is it the present rate regime with the rate relief incorporated into it or is it after the rate relief has been removed so that we're looking at not only the nine percent but the rate relief percentage that we're now being subsidized on? Who is it going to apply to? Is it going to apply to all the customers?

Hon. Mr. Harding: With regard to rate relief, it's certainly still up for discussion through the commission's consultation - the targeted rate relief as well as the seasonal rate relief concept. The numbers are based presently on the existing rate structure.

Mr. Cable: I take it then that that's incorporating the rate relief into the existing rate structure. If that's not the case, maybe the minister can clarify that with me privately.

With respect to the ministerial statement, the ministerial statement's long on stabilization, as I mentioned, but is short on affordability. Now, is it the government's proposition - and I ask this question again - that after the nine-percent maximum increase over the present rates, rates will then be affordable and that the NDP election commitment has been met?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, our plan does not end with the rate stabilization fund. It is but one cog in that plan.

The energy commission has put forward a number of ideas that the public will be hearing about over the next little while, but one of the things we will continue to strive to do is to reduce rates for Yukoners, particularly for our residential customers wherever and whenever possible.

When we look at initiatives, such as extending the grid from British Columbia or at other alternatives that the Yukon Energy Corporation may be pursuing, whether the energy commission is analyzing supply options, we'll be intending to try and find vehicles to keep rates as affordable and as reduced as possible.

Under this plan that we have put forward, we have put forward an opportunity for Yukoners to end the roller-coaster ride on rates and we've put forward as affordable a solution as we possibly can, given the circumstances surrounding the Faro mine.

Question re: Marsh Lake ski trails, land reserve

Mrs. Edelman: My question is for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services. Mr. Speaker, over a period of 11 years, the Marsh Lake Community Association has been asking that an area between the Alaska Highway and the Judas Creek subdivision at Marsh Lake be set aside as a parcel of land for a community recreation reserve or a park.

This land is the Marsh Lake ski trail area, where the Marsh Lake ski loppet is held every year. This is a request that has been made by local residents. Why has this government failed to set aside this land for recreational use?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this government has not failed in initiating or working with the Marsh Lake community. This government is going to be, and will be, continuing to work with the communities in the Yukon to look after their needs.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I'd have to say that actually this government is ignoring the residents, because we're learning that they're working against resident requests. Somehow, despite land claims and a variety of other impediments, there are now two land applications for agricultural use being finalized in this area at the request of YTG.

Now Mr. Speaker, somehow these two parcels of land are being taken out of the area that residents have asked to be set aside for a recreational reserve. Can the minister tell this House why he is not listening to the residents who, for 11 years, have asked that this land be set aside as a recreational area?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: As people are well-aware in the House, this application has been around for many, many years, and it has just crossed my desk again as recently as last week. Mr. Speaker, it is in the process now, and we'll accept it into the process. The people do have the opportunity to bring their concerns forward, and I would certainly encourage them to do so.

Mrs. Edelman: It's interesting that the minister is talking about people having an opportunity for their input. Now, Mr. Speaker, here's a really good example of NDP consultations. On November 5, 1997, the NDP sent a letter to the Marsh Lake Community Association, asking for their input on a proposed agricultural land transfer in the middle of an area that residents have asked to be set aside for recreation.

The NDP wanted input back no later than November 6, the very next day. Does the minister think that the Marsh Lake Community Association is on the psychic hotline, and can just transmit their views instantly? Is this the better way, and is this the way this government intends to consult?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Absolutely not. Mr. Speaker, we will take the time, and we do take the time, to encourage people to bring their thoughts forward. As I've said, this is an issue that's been around for many, many years. This government is committed to working with people and we'll work with people in a very deliberate and a very thoughtful manner.

If there's a typo or if there's a problem with that, well, that certainly happens within the system, but I can assure the member opposite that we'll be taking the time to listen to the people and I encourage the people to work within the system.

Question re: Fuel prices, impact on tourism

Mr. Phillips: My question is for the Minister of Tourism. It's on the issue of high Yukon gas prices impacting on tourism visitation.

The minister knows well that the so-called moccasin telegraph for RVs travels faster than the speed of light. The minister also knows full well that, in the recent visitor exit survey that we did several years ago, many of our visitors complained about our high fuel prices and continue to do so almost every year at our visitor centres.

With fuel prices in B.C. and Alaska - our neighbours - much lower than the Yukon by well over 10 cents a litre in many cases, there's going to be tremendous incentive this summer for tourists destined for Alaska to fill up before they hit the Yukon border and not to stop until they've passed the Alaskan border. They can now do that in a day because of our improved highways.

Does the minister have any contingency plan in place, other than hoping for a highway washout, to slow our visitors down this upcoming tourism season?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Well, perhaps all members of this House could throw ourselves across the road and form a human barricade. Perhaps I'll participate and volunteer to go with the Member for Klondike to start the chain.

I know that the Tourism department has many ideas, but the question was referring to the issue of gas pricing in the Yukon. I've explained to members of this House that we do have an analysis coming forward on the situation regarding gas prices in the Yukon. It is not an issue that has just arisen in the Yukon. You would think, Mr. Speaker, from hearing the Yukon Party, that the prices have just shot up from 40 cents to where they are now. They, in part, contributed to the prices we have today with their gasoline tax increases.

However, having said that, we intend to come forward with suggestions to deal with the price of gasoline. It is not something that is uncommon to the north. Our brothers and sisters in the Northwest Territories are also facing considerably higher gasoline prices, as are many northern and rural communities in both jurisdictions.

So, we will come forward with an analysis and, from that, will emanate a plan to deal with the situation as best we can for Yukoners.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Economic Development might think this is a laughing matter, but there are a lot of people on the highways in this territory that own and operate businesses who are not laughing about this at all. In fact, they're quite concerned about what may happen this summer when our visitors fill up south of Watson Lake and go right on through to Beaver Creek without stopping because of the high gas prices.

Mr. Speaker, some statistics that we have show that gas prices in Prince George on March 10 were 51.9 cents per litre. They're over 69 cents in the Yukon at the present time, and we know that they're higher in rural communities, and the gas prices traditionally have gone up in the spring.

Can the Minister of Tourism advise the House, Mr. Speaker, what he is going to do to encourage Yukon's rubber-tire tourist traffic to stick around the territory and travel to some of our rural tourist attractions where the prices are even higher? What is the minister going to do if they can't get these prices down to where they're realistic to convince these visitors to spend some time in the territory?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite referred to us making a laughing matter out of this, but we certainly aren't. We're taking the issue seriously. However, when the member engages in fear-mongering, in trying to promote the idea that somehow our Cabinet has declared war on Iraq, and that's the reason that the prices in the Yukon have gone up, or somehow we are responsible for what's happening here - we are taking our responsibility very seriously as a government in dealing with a situation that we did not create, and I've explained that to the member over and over again.

The member refers to Prince George. The reality in Prince George is that there is a gas war going on in Prince George right now, because of the high levels of competition there in that community. So, to try to separate out somehow a city where there is a gas war and ignore what's happening in the Northwest Territories is like comparing apples and grapefruits.

Mr. Speaker, we have a plan for dealing with it. We don't think it's appropriate or productive for the member to continue to engage in fear-mongering. We have a strategy. We'll bring it forward. We'll bring forward some analysis, and perhaps the member opposite has some concrete, productive suggestions for a change.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Speaker, Yukoners are frustrated. Since August of last year, they've watched gas prices go down in this country, in every jurisdiction but the Yukon. And it seems that the only individuals who haven't noticed that in the Yukon are the ministers on the side opposite, and that's probably because they haven't been here long enough. They've been travelling all over the country and buying their gas elsewhere.

Mr. Speaker, it's a shame that...

Deputy Speaker: Order please. Would the member please get to the question.

Mr. Phillips: ... they're not aware of how it impacts Yukoners.

Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of Tourism this question: is he doing any analysis at all to determine the impact that these extremely high gas prices in the Yukon will have on our RV traffic, which is coming mostly from the U.S., that is destined for Alaska. The good chances are, Mr. Speaker, that these people will drive right through when they learn about our high gas prices in the territory.

Was the minister planning to do any analyzing of that type of situation, and what is he going to do about it to slow our visitors down so they spend some of their money in the territory?

Hon. Mr. Harding: Mr. Speaker, as the member opposite piously decries his views about the situation of gas prices in the Yukon, I ask him to just take a look at the history. Take a look at the prices today, the prices where they were. Take a look at his own record in terms of taxing Yukoners at the gas pumps. I think he will clearly see that there is a long-standing issue here. It is heightened, albeit, right now because the price of crude oil in the world has just recently dropped.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite said that everywhere else in the country the prices have dropped. That's completely false. Take a look at what's happening in the north. The reason the NWT is similar to us is because they have the same problems with a lack of volume discounts. They have the same problem with the refineries. They have a lower level of competition than, say, Prince George, where there's a gas war going on right now.

Mr. Speaker, we are hearing the concerns of Yukoners loudly and clearly. We are doing analyses. I hope to table some this week in the House. We will not ignore the problem. We will take responsibility on behalf of Yukoners for dealing with it as best we can. We will deal with the suggestions by the Yukon Party to establish caps on the price of fuel. We will deal with all those things, and perhaps we'll have some good debate and some good suggestions in this House.

Question re: Air Transat

Ms. Duncan: My question's for the Minister of Tourism. There's been some discussion in this House regarding increased air access to the Yukon this summer; namely, the Air Transat flight scheduled to begin on May 19. The minister has indicated, in previous discussions about this, that the flights were selling well in Europe. Now the minister has just returned from Europe, via the Arctic Winter Games, and I wonder if he could indicate this: is this still his understanding, that the Air Transat flights are selling well?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Finally, a real question for Tourism. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I must say that I had met with the Air Transat folks when I was in Europe, and have been discussing the possibilities of how their marketing is going. I understand that it is up to 80-percent occupancy sold now.

Ms. Duncan: Each Air Transat L1011 aircraft scheduled to land in Whitehorse is capable of holding about 300 passengers. The charter flights are actually leaving Germany, stopping in Whitehorse and going on to Vancouver. The concern that I have heard from industry is that many passengers do not plan to get off when the plane stops in Whitehorse. They intend, Mr. Speaker, to use the flight as a cheap charter to Vancouver.

Does the minister have any idea how many passengers intend to actually get off in Whitehorse and begin their vacation here and how many are just using this as a stop on the way to Vancouver?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Well, I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I have to take offence to that comment, because certainly we have been working for many, many years - for the last 15 years - to make Yukon a destination, and Yukon is a destination. If the member opposite would open his eyes to see that it is a destination, then would not be fear-mongering. I have had many, many meetings with the Tourism Industry Association and operators and they assure me that we are doing a good job, and they have not expressed that fear-mongering to me at all.

Ms. Duncan: The last time I checked with half a dozen hotels in Whitehorse, none of them had any guests getting off the Air Transat flights. It could be that the passengers intend to get off the plane and rent a camper. A hundred campers at the Whitehorse airport is going to take planning.

This information is important. The airport has to be staffed with the appropriate number of Customs officials, and hotel reservations and camper reservations have to be made, so that people aren't getting off the plane and finding too few campers, too few hotel rooms, and long Customs lineups.

The first flight is going to arrive in about seven weeks. Will the minister find out how many passengers plan to get off and make the Yukon their destination - which all of us understand it to be - and how many are going on to Vancouver?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Speaker, I will repeat that. What we have done here and what we have been working on in conjunction with the Tourism Industry Association is to encourage and to get more people here with the creation of the Destination Yukon as a world-class marketplace; this is happening. I know people in Whitehorse who are constructing hotels and adding on additions to hotels and who are putting into their brochures the German language so that the people might be able to expand and enjoy their stay in the Yukon. I cannot see people doing that for people who are going on to Vancouver.

So, I really must say that I express dissatisfaction with the calibre of the questions.

Deputy Speaker: The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will now proceed to Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Mr. Harding: I move that the Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into the Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Deputy Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. Is it the wish of the members to take a brief recess?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Deputy Chair: Committee will recess for 15 minutes.

Recess

Deputy Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order.

Committee is dealing with the main estimates. We are on the Department of Education.

Bill No. 9 - First Appropriation Act, 1998-99 - continued

Department of Education - continued

Deputy Chair: Is there any further general debate?

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, since we last spoke in the House about this, there have been a couple of revelations, so to speak, that have come up in Education and I do have some questions for the minister.

I, too, received a copy of the Department of Education public schools branch action plan that our Liberal colleague released to the general public. I received it on the Monday of spring break, I guess in a similar fashion that the other party did. I have since expressed some concerns over not only the report but the way in which it was handled by our opposition colleagues.

I guess my concern is that I think that the exercise that was undertaken by the Department of Education was a very useful one. I think it's one, as I mentioned before, that should be done on a continuous basis, so my first question to the minister is this: despite the release of this document, which obviously is a working paper document, I assume, of some discussions that took place with department officials, and despite the political rhetoric that surrounds the document, is it the intention of the minister to continue with this kind of discussion within the department, first of all, and, secondly, will the way that this document was presented create any difficulties in terms of frank and open discussions in the future, in the minister's view? Does she feel that this may cause some people to have concern because the document ended up in a public forum? What is the minister doing to deal with that?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: In response to the member's questions about the minutes of the February 24 and 25 meeting of a couple of dozen of public schools branch employees being made public by the Liberal caucus, I have to say that I do expect that there will be employees who will be reluctant to participate openly in similar sessions in the future when what they had to say at a meeting, where they were looking at how to meet challenges and respond to them, could pose a difficulty. Nonetheless, it's a very good employment practice to involve people at the working level in helping to make changes for the future.

The employees who participated in this team-building exercise sat down, looked at some changes that have been made, and made a number of recommendations about future changes. That is part of how the Department of Education does business.

It's a good thing to have evaluations and to follow up when changes are initiated, considering how effective those changes were and what the future needs might be. I hope that departmental employees will continue to participate in forums like this. I know that the public schools branch intends to continue looking to come up with a good long-range plan to improve the support that they offer to the schools.

I'd also like to mention that I recently attended a Friday afternoon communication session at the Department of Education, and these issues were not raised at that time by the very staff who were present - and did not ask those questions of me. I do know that the management in the department are supportive of personnel expressing their views, and also make a forum for communication among departmental employees on a regular basis to improve communications.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, I don't think the minister should sit back and think that everything's okay, because it's clear. I mean, I have a great deal of difficulty with the way in which this information was released, and I say that primarily because my concern is about what it will do for future meetings like this and whether people will be honest and open and frank in discussing improvements that they'd like to see to the department.

But having said that, the minister has even caused me more concern today when the minister said she met on Friday - or last week - Friday, I believe? Two weeks ago? Oh, the minister met a few weeks ago with officials from the department and some of these people were there but they never raised these issues with them.

My concern is that I don't think people would have raised these issues in a private meeting with Education officials just to be malicious or maybe to stir things up. The type of concerns we have expressed here are real concerns about the way some people think things are working - or not working.

And so, my concern is now that the report is public, there is not much we can do about that. My concern is to ensure that, in the future, the department can still have these kinds of exercises and somehow give confidence to the individuals who were there - and some are named in this report - that they can actually speak their minds freely, recommend changes and point out problems within the department without the feeling of being named publicly or even being named from within the department from one official to another. That's a concern I have.

My other concern, Mr. Chair, is the approach that was taken by the minister. My concern there was that there seemed to be more of a focus by the minister on the Liberals releasing this document than there was from the minister on admitting or accepting that there are serious concerns that have arisen in the department. I mean, to downplay it by saying it's a small group, it's not the whole works - my recommendation to the minister is maybe she should do this kind of an exercise with all of the groups in the Department of Education.

And, in fact, I've had calls from parents and school councils who have suggested that it should be an exercise that might be carried out in all schools in the territory, because I've received letters - as I'm sure the minister has - recently from the Vuntut Gwitchin riding - the Old Crow school - from the Haines Junction school, and from other areas where there are problems. So, is the minister prepared to expand this kind of an exercise to other areas within her department, as well as to suggest to the school councils and others that within each individual school they should sit down and do this kind of planning exercise - where they're at and where they're going, what are their concerns, what are their problems, how do they solve them? Is the minister prepared to do that?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, the member starts out by saying that he would like to respect the employees and wants to ensure that they will feel willing to participate, in the future, in a team-building exercise such as the one that occurred in February of last year. I would like to see that continue into the future, too. There is no intent on the part of anyone within the Department of Education to punish anybody for participating in this exercise, for expressing their opinions or, indeed, for providing a copy of the draft version of the minutes to the opposition caucuses.

Having said that, it is our responsibility to look at the goals and priorities for the education system and how we're meeting them. It is my responsibility to be accountable for what the public schools branch, as well as all departments in government, are doing, and for ensuring that they are making improvements. That is a serious responsibility that I am doing to the best of my ability.

I will continue to support this kind of initiative within the department. Individual managers have the right and the ability to manage, and I'm not intending to dictate to them how they manage their departments. I am certainly supportive, since I think that was the member's question, of having small and large groups within the public schools branch, and other sections of the department, look at ways that they can be more effective as a team.

The public schools branch provides support to school-based teams for program delivery and for meeting the needs of students with special needs. I think they have put forward some good recommendations on how to make improvements there, and I look forward to them continuing to do so.

Mr. Phillips: My concern was that the minister's initial response was more one of an attack on the Liberal colleague for releasing the document, and seemed to steer away quite a bit from any discussion or concerns about the information that was laid out in the document. My concern is that the people who spoke and raised these issues had some very strong feelings about what was right and what was wrong, and these people may now feel somewhat let down by the minister, because the minister - and her officials, the senior officials; maybe the deputy minister, and I don't know who else - seemed to be more intent on focusing on the leak of the document rather than the contents of the document.

And my concern is that I heard there was very low morale in the Department of Education, not just in one small unit but in many of the areas of the Department of Education; that there are a lot of frustrated employees over there at the junior level, and I think some of that is reflected in the comments on the current reality assessment.

So, what I'd like to know from the minister is, how serious is the minister going to treat this current reality assessment? The problems seem quite widespread. This was the public schools branch. Well, that's the biggest branch of the Department of Education, and that's the one that has more of a direct effect on most of our students in the territory. So, how is the minister going to deal with the concerns that have been expressed by the individuals who took part in this particular assessment?

I think what's going to have to happen, Mr. Chair, is that the minister is going to have to react quite quickly to some of these recommendations and give some direction to the department on making changes, or the morale that is already low is going to sink lower if the minister brushes it under the table. I would hope that the minister is not going to do that. The minister has got some real problems on her hands and the minister should be treating this as a very serious issue.

Maybe the minister can tell us what action plan - has she met with the group of individuals since this document was released and given them some kind of assurances that, despite the release process, which I believe to be somewhat damaging to this overall type of assessment - has the minister met with those officials to give them assurances that we will be doing something about the recommendations that are in this report?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The member's statement that I'm trying to sweep something under the rug is simply not true. I am intent on protecting the confidentiality of employees who participated in a team-building exercise within their staffing unit where the very first ground rule was that what they had to say was confidential. This document is 26 pages in length. It includes the names of several individuals who work within that particular unit of the public schools branch and speaks directly about the different responsibilities that they have. That confidentiality must be protected.

Putting that aside, we can stand here for as many days as you like discussing the directions that have been given to the Department of Education and what we're doing to ensure that that direction is being met.

The followup plan after that planning session includes a number of things. The superintendent organized a meeting with the public schools branch management team to present and review the document. I understand that a number of employees were concerned about the document being made available to the opposition and then released publicly while many of them were out of town, whether they were with Arctic Winter Games or taking family vacations because their children were out of school.

The assistant deputy minister will be making arrangements to meet with the public schools consultants in the next two weeks to kind of debrief on the events that occurred and plan for where we go from here, and to ensure that everyone is aware that management does not intend to identify the informant.

The goal is to reassure staff that the motivation and the outcomes of the workshop are taken seriously by management and by myself. The process of providing a facilitator to work with the larger group of consultants was developed to foster a positive team approach to move forward and to serve students, their families and the school staff as best as they could.

That was the goal that these professional employees brought to bear when they sat down to look at ways of improving their service and of meeting challenges that they faced, and it will continue to be supported as they move toward making improvements. We will continue to listen to what the employees have to say.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, you can't fault me for trying to find out if the minister is planning to do anything about this because, over a year ago, we raised in this House concerns over math marks, and we raised them a year ago, we raised them in November, we raised them in January, we raised them again this spring in this session, and the minister kept saying that everything is under control, don't worry about it, everything's okay. I mean, the first excuse was, this is just the first term mark and not the final mark. Then, this is just the first final mark and not the second one where there's an opportunity to bring these kids back up to standard.

Well, those excuses were rather shallow, and now we're hearing out there from all kinds of parents, school councils and others that there is a real problem with the math, and specifically the new math curriculum for kindergarten to grade seven, and the other things that are going on. This minister has been very, very reluctant to deal with problems until after we've wasted six months or a year of raising them in the House, and this has been at the expense of our students. That's the unfortunate thing. The stubborn attitude of the minister from time to time is costing our students dearly.

I mean, I'm not raising these issues and I didn't raise the issues a year ago to necessarily criticize the minister; I raised them to set off alarm bells. Of course, it seems in these things, Mr. Chair, that everyone runs for cover, everyone gets defensive, and instead of looking at the problem, they try and make up a couple of hundred excuses for the minister to use in the House or publicly that say there isn't a problem at all. Until the building's almost burned to the ground, the minister refuses to say it caught fire.

And I think that's the problem we're in here, and that's why I'm concerned about the action plan as a result of these concerns. There are some employees who are upset with the way this was released, and I share those concerns, because I think it will do damage to this process in the future. But, having that happen and that said, my concern now turns to the issues raised by those employees. And, other than the senior department officials that are fairly severely criticized in this document and being the only ones who are maybe going to meet with the officials who raised the concerns, it seems to me to be a bit of putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop.

I wanted to hear from the minister that the minister feels this is pretty serious and that she would make some public statement that can go through her department which will say that the minister treats each and every one of these comments very seriously, and that the minister maybe will appoint someone independent to look at the problems in the Department of Education, because, by reading this document, it doesn't seem to me, Mr. Chair, that some of the comments made reflect a lot of confidence in the senior officials. I'm talking now about the deputy minister and the very senior officials, and that's why I'm trying to find out from the minister what they are going to do.

Is it just the minister's intention to have just the senior officials in the department, the ones who are mostly criticized in this document, meet with the officials who made the criticisms, and they are going to listen to their concerns and see if they can make changes, or does the minister plan, at any time in the future, to do some kind of an independent evaluation of these concerns?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I think it's important that we don't take an alarmist approach to the concerns that have been expressed. Yes, I take every statement that has been made by these employees seriously. Yes, I encourage departmental employees and government employees to speak their minds and to bring forward problems to be resolved.

There are a number of mechanisms for resolving problems within the work place. The Yukon government employees are represented by a union. They have a grievance process in place under their collective agreement. As well, within departments, managers attempt to ensure there's a good working relationship among employees by such things as supporting a team-building exercise within the public schools branch. All of those systems and all of that work can and should continue, and I will continue to support it.

I'm also willing to meet with employees individually and as a group, with or without senior managers present, if they request that. I've also attended communication sessions at the department in order to make myself available to respond to questions from employees, and I'm willing to continue with that.

So, Mr. Chair, I think we have in place a good working model to encourage staff to present any concerns they have and to have them acted upon. The public schools branch itself will continue with its exercise of looking at ways to improve the services that they deliver to schools and to students.

I think it's really important that we keep in mind that what the public schools branch was wanting to engage in was an exercise to improve the service delivery model available to students in our schools. We need to keep focused on the goals of improving the education system. The employees were focused on that goal, and we're focused on that goal, and I think that we can do some good collaborative work. I know that they will continue to bring forward their recommendations on where we go from here. We do need to respond to all of the criticisms that have been levied, and we will do so.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I do respect the process that the minister's department has undertaken, and share the minister's concerns about the public release of the document, but I do have very strong concerns about some of the comments.

Now, some of the comments in the document, granted, are just the kind of thing that you hear on a day-to-day basis about improving the system, but some of the recommendations are quite profound. Some of the statements are quite profound.

Maybe the minister could take this suggestion as one that might solve some of the problems. Unfortunately, this has become very much a political issue now, because of the release of the document, but maybe what the minister has to do is take it back out of the political forum and also maybe give it some independence. I wonder if the minister would be prepared to continue with this type of process but appoint someone other than existing officials in the department to coordinate this kind of an exercise, and then possibly provide the written recommendations or whatever just to the minister? Then the minister herself, Mr. Chair, would be obligated to give some political direction on improvements to the system. Like I said, many of the criticisms were against the senior management and, in fact, some of the comments were even that our leaders are not here today and yet the leaders are the ones that, it sounds like, are going to have to make changes to these kinds of things, and maybe in some ways it meant that what they were doing at the present time is not working, and some people sometimes are reluctant to do that.

So, would the minister consider moving this into more of an independent process where an individual who has some background in education would be appointed to work with the consultant in carrying on these various kinds of assessments with the employees and seeing whether or not we could get some good recommendations that would flow to the minister?

I can tell the minister that, like I said, we received this document the Monday of the week it was released and appreciated right away that it was a working document and that it named people and that it was the type of process that had to go on not only just in government. Any corporation or business should be doing this kind of thing from time to time as well, to assess where they're going.

As the minister says, probably the first thing that was reiterated to all those employees at that meeting was, "You can say whatever you want, because everything you say is going to stay in this room." The employees felt that they had the confidence of whoever said that, whoever was the team leader at that meeting that that would happen. And, of course, it didn't. Now that it is public knowledge, it's important for the minister to react to the issues.

Even more important, since the public confidence has been betrayed for some of those individuals who thought they were speaking in confidence, the minister has to show them in a much stronger way that she is concerned about these issues, that she takes this process very seriously and that the minister wants to ensure impartiality and maybe take it away from the superiors who were going to be involved in it and move it into an independent realm. Will the minister consider doing something like that to give it a little more strength and to provide for some of the independence that some of these people might want to see now?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, the member opposite can stop politicizing the departmental staff the minute that he stops quoting specific, negative comments made by specific individual employees as printed in that document, taking them out of context and quoting them in this House. That is politicizing the employees.

The member has made a suggestion that I consider having this process go to some independent, outside arbiter. That's an interesting suggestion and I am prepared to consider it. What I have to say for the benefit of the member opposite is that the employees themselves are the ones who have been lost in all of this. They have not made any request for their "how can we be a better team and provide a better service to students and school teams" and the process they were engaged in to enhance that or asked for ministerial intervention in that process. They have not done that. They may make that comment among themselves when they go back to work, and I'm certainly prepared to consider any options that are brought forward either by the member opposite or by the employees within the department.

I do have to respond, however, to the member's statements that there's no direction and we need to be talking about what the direction is so that Education employees know what they're doing. We have a direction for education in this territory. The Department of Education knows what the direction of the Yukon government is when it comes to providing an education system that meets the needs in our schools and in our communities.

First and foremost, we are back on track with implementing the goals and objectives of the Education Act. We are restoring and rebuilding partnerships with the school communities, with school councils, with parents, with teachers, with First Nations.

We are ensuring that the principle of a child-centred education system, where you educate the whole child, is one that people understand we're committed to. We continue to support the integration of students with special needs in the schools. We want to provide a safe and respectful learning environment in all of our schools around the territory. We want to improve gender equity and to provide equal opportunity for all the students.

We are working with youth. We established, for instance, the Youth Works trust fund so that youth themselves can make decisions on how to best spend monies on youth training programs and work and lifeskills programs.

We are supporting the school improvement program, which is an internal model where the school communities work with departmental officials and plan for a five-year period over how they can improve learning for students and enhance the school environment.

So, we have a focus on positive change. We support the school-based team approach that was one of the specific changes that public schools branch employees wanted to assess and evaluate.

Assessing and evaluating what we do is critically important, particularly for the Department of Education. Curriculum doesn't stay the same; curriculum changes over time. We're not teaching the same things that we taught 20 years ago or 50 years ago. That wouldn't make any sense. It's a different world; it's a different economy.

We evaluate the curriculum changes that we made. And similarly, as a department, the professionals who support the overall direction of the education system evaluate the work that they do and look for ways of improving it. We will continue to support them in that process, and I think we need to make sure that the focus is on the issues, not on individual employees.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, it's quite discouraging to hear this minister. She just went on for probably five minutes and talked about how great our education system is in the territory and how good this government is doing to get everyone on track. And yet that's not what I'm hearing out there from the people, from the people in the math departments to the people at various schools, from the letters we're receiving from Old Crow and Haines Junction and Dawson City - the problems in Porter Creek - and now from her own department. One after the other, they're lining up saying that there are real problems in this system under this minister, and the minister keeps saying, "Everything is nice. Everything is rosy. Everything is great."

Mr. Chair, everything isn't great, and I think what the general public wants to hear from the minister is that there are some real problems in the schools, in the Department of Education and in some other areas of education, that the minister is prepared to deal with, and not prepared to just stand up and say, "Don't worry. Be happy. Everything is okay." That's what the minister is saying.

I think the people are rather discouraged, and I think today the people that were involved in this current reality assessment will be even more discouraged by the minister.

The minister said that I shouldn't quote things out of context. My point was, Mr. Chair, that we didn't release any names. We didn't release this document. We received the document and kept it confidential. It was released by the Liberal Party for whatever reasons they felt, but there are some things in this document that, after it does become public, need some serious consideration.

The minister just seems bound and determined to focus on the release of the document as one attack, and the other deflection is, "Eeverything's just fine; we're working with the new Education Act, and we're getting back on track, and everybody's quite happy." Well, I don't think they are quite happy at all, Mr. Chair.

I received a letter today from several concerned parents in Old Crow. I think that the minister has a copy of that letter as well. Some very serious accusations are made. One of the concerns is there are a lot of field trips - 40 to 55 days on field trips a year, from January to June. Does the minister feel that that's an average amount of field trips? Does the minister support that approach, in light of the concerns that were raised by this group of parents from Old Crow?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The member opposite is not being accurate in his reflection of what I've been saying. The member stood here and indicated that he felt there was no direction being provided, and so I responded, as is my obligation, to tell him what the direction is. I think that that's an important thing to put on the public record.

For the last half an hour or so, we have been talking about some issues that were raised in the released document, and how we as a department, and how I as a minister, propose to deal with them in the future. We are taking them seriously, as I keep repeating, and we will continue to strive for improvement.

The member asked questions, as well, about a letter received from some parents in Old Crow. He asked specifically about the number of field trips. First of all, I do not know if the number, as reported, is accurate.

I also have spoken with the chief and council of the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation about education in their community. Understandably, this year, while students are housed in temporary classrooms and a new school is being constructed, the facilities are not as good as we would like to have available. I think that people are doing their best with the facilities that are there. I understand that, at the present time, the school council is holding a meeting to talk with chief and council and with concerned parents about their concerns and about how to respond to them. Some of the comments that have been made do relate to personnel. The superintendent and the assistant deputy minister will be in Old Crow this week and will meet with parents and with the school council to respond to their concerns.

Mr. Phillips: Sorry, Mr. Chair, I missed that last part. The minister said officials were going to Old Crow?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The superintendent for the area and the assistant deputy minister will be in Old Crow later this week and will meet with parents as well as with the school council and the chief and council or other members who have expressed an interest in talking to them.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, this is a question, I guess, primarily about the Education Act. One of the issues raised by the people of Old Crow is that there have been no school elections since October 24, 1996. Is there a requirement to hold mandatory elections annually? I can't recall. It says here that the minister normally appoints them, and I can remember that happening quite often, where names were put forward and you appointed them. But is there a requirement to hold an election, and appointment only happens after, say, no one is nominated to the school council?

Maybe the minister could get back to me on that?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: School council elections, according to the Education Act, are held every three years. If there are not enough candidates to hold an election, then the candidates who have submitted their names are appointed; they are acclaimed into the position if there are not enough candidates to conduct an election.

Mr. Phillips: Well, I imagine that the officials going to Old Crow are going to meet with the teachers, the principal and others. Are they going to call a public meeting in Old Crow and meet with concerned parents, as well? What is their intent? There's a list of a dozen families, which would comprise, if everyone in those families was supportive, a significant portion of the residents in Old Crow. I just wonder whether or not it is the minister's intention to call a meeting with the group that wrote this letter. What is the minister's intent for the officials when they go to Old Crow?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Their intent was to meet with the chief and council, since the chief and council contacted us with some concerns and requested a meeting. As well, they will meet with the school council and with the school staff. I will have to come back with an answer as to whether they're holding a public meeting while they're there.

Mr. Phillips: If this spokesperson for this group contacts the minister, would they consider meeting with the group, as a group, if that's what they wish to do? I'm not sure what the protocol is for that kind of thing, but they have expressed some strong concerns here. Does the minister feel that the school council, and/or the band that they're going to meet with, will express and carry forward the concerns of this group?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, it's very important for the school council to be involved, since they do have responsibilities under the act, and since we think it's important to ensure there's school council input on decisions related to education within individual school communities. Of course, the Education officials who are going to Old Crow would be happy to meet with these parents as a group, if they wanted to have a separate meeting - if they didn't want to come to the meeting with the school council.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, I would hope that the minister will deal with this issue fairly quickly, and hopefully solve some of the concerns that are expressed in Old Crow about the system, that it doesn't appear to be - from some people's views - working very satisfactorily.

While we're on Old Crow and I see we have the Government Services minister present, maybe in a very short, brief and concise report that minister might tell us where we're at with the Old Crow road and the materials going to Old Crow.

Actually, Mr. Chair, if the Minister of Education knows the details, I'd prefer that that minister answer. Other than that, if there's more that the Government Services minister can offer us, I'd even listen to him for a few brief moments.

Maybe the minister could bring us up to speed.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deputy Chair: Ms. Moorcroft.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The Minister of Government Services ...

Deputy Chair: Ms. Moorcroft.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: ... and -

Chair's statement

Deputy Chair: Order for a second. Order please. Try to stay seated while the member's still speaking, please. Don't be standing up, so impatient. It makes my job a little easier and keeps some decorum. Okay, you can begin. Okay, Mr. Sloan.

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Well, I can see the rampant enthusiasm for me responding to this, so I'll be quite brief. The road is still there. We've been monitoring it quite a bit last week because we were concerned about the weather.

The latest report that I had -

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Yeah, starting at kilometre zero. No, actually, the road conditions have held. We're monitoring it on a daily basis; it's running at night. Basically, we believe that we will make the 28th date. Wednesday will be kind of a crunch point for us, because DIA is going to be doing a review of it. All going well, if it holds to the 28th, we would start decomissioning on the 29th and the subsequent three days.

A good deal of material has arrived. We had some delay, believe it or not, by a snowstorm in southern Canada. One of the shipments that had yet to leave was the prestained siding, and that left on Monday, so we're expecting that it will be here Wednesday, and hopefully in Old Crow by Thursday.

The reports that I have from truckers travelling the road indicate that they're travelling somewhat faster than what we had planned on - that they're doing the round trip in about 24 hours. We had originally thought it would be 30 hours plus. But the road seems to be holding. As a matter of fact, in some ways the thaw is actually helping us by the compaction of the snow. So that's just an update.

Mr. Phillips: Well, Mr. Chair, I know this might be a painful experience for the minister, but if he could cast his mind back to the discussion about the trusses for the Old Crow school, one of the reasons given at the time was that it was timing and that these other trusses would be here and would be on site. Are the trusses going to make the opening of the road, or are we going to have to fly these trusses in to Old Crow?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Yes, we're anticipating that the trusses will make it in. Our primary concern right now is the siding, because that was completed on the weekend, and hopefully we can get that in by Thursday. But no, we expect that the trusses and the glulams will be shipped in. We also have the hollow, steel supports that are being fabricated here in Whitehorse. They are being picked up, and they will be picked up this week and brought up there.

Mr. Phillips: I don't have any further questions of this minister at this time, so that's probably all we'll need to hear from him, Mr. Chair, and I thank him for his response.

Mr. Chair, we also received a copy of a letter that went to the principal and the staff of the St. Elias Community School. There are some concerns about goings-on at the school and the approach that some are taking in the school with respect to some of the residents and, I believe, the new principal of the school. Can the minister bring us up to speed on what's happening there? Are these problems solved? This letter that I've seen is dated February 5. Have the minister's officials gone to Haines Junction to look into the matter and made a report to the minister?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, the officials have travelled to Haines Junction and are working with the Haines Junction community. I cannot make a lot of comments about what is essentially a personnel issue at the school. I can say that we are diligently observing both the collective agreement that is in place and the Education Act, which sets out procedures to deal with personnel matters. The school council is fully involved and the department is working with the school and the school council.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, the minister sent us over a copy of the answers to the technical briefing and I have a couple of questions resulting from that.

I seem to recall that in the last election campaign the New Democratic Party committed to expanding the school in Old Crow to accommodate grade 12. In a document that we received from the minister, signed by an assistant deputy minister, it says, "We would anticipate that, if grade expansion in Old Crow were to proceed, we would phase it in at the beginning of grade 10 in September 1999."

Is it now an "if" rather than an absolute, for sure? Because I thought initially that the government announced that it would happen in their A Better Way. And in their documents in the last election, I'm sure they talked about grade 12 going into Old Crow. In fact, I think there were even some statements in the budget about grade 12 going into Old Crow - in some of the statements in the House.

So, I'm just asking the minister if this is something that we're going to discuss with the school council at Old Crow or if it's a commitment that has already been made. What's happening with it?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, I've met with people in Old Crow about their desire to see an expansion of the senior grades in the Old Crow community. We are willing to work toward that, although I do not recall there being an election commitment dealing with the specific grade offerings in Old Crow or any other communities. Nonetheless, where we have senior grade offerings being expanded in rural communities, it often helps with student retention.

We have money in the budget to begin developing a rural programming model that can be used to address the unique needs of Old Crow. We know that there are small enrollments in that community, as in many of the rural communities, and we will need a model for offering the senior grades that's different from what we use in larger communities. We cannot offer the same program for a group of half a dozen students as we can offer for several students, where we have several teachers teaching several different courses.

We will work with the community of Old Crow on grade expansion and have money in the budget for developing a rural programming model that can meet those needs.

Mr. Phillips: That's not a problem that's just associated with Old Crow. I think it's a problem that's associated with every rural school - the numbers issues and whether you can afford to have a biology teacher, a chemistry teacher, a math teacher and those kinds of skills in a small community, teaching anywhere from two to 20 students. I know it's a problem in all areas.

Maybe I'll suggest to the minister then that one area they might look at is with the new technology. I am not sure of the cost of this kind of thing, but you are offering programs at the two new high schools, of course, for full-class complements in grades 10, 11 and 12. Maybe there's some way, in the near future, for some type of a satellite linkup, as they do at Yukon College.

With some of our more remote communities, although we possibly wouldn't have to have a teacher of each one of these subjects in the community, we could offer some satellite uplinks with the students though either Yukon College at Old Crow or through the new school itself. So, maybe the minister could consider something like that. Has the minister given that any kind of consideration?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, Mr. Chair, and as the member may be aware, there is money in the capital budget for distance education. We presently have Internet links in most, if not all, of the public schools in the Yukon school system. I believe there are a few more that have yet to be connected to the Internet, but they will be soon, and that does enhance the ability to increase the programs that are offered in rural communities. Using technology to best advantage within the education system is an important part of the goals we have for the education system. It is possible to increase distance education capabilities in Old Crow, and we're working on exactly that.

Mr. Phillips: I'm talking about a little more sophisticated, I suppose, linkup with a classroom-type instructional linkup that happens. So, that's the kind of idea that I was thinking about.

Mr. Chair, I want to move over to my riding for a second. There's an organization in Riverdale called the Riverdale Community Association, which is working very hard on all kinds of projects. One of the projects is beautifying Riverdale and I think it's called Riverdale Blooms. I know each year the Government of Yukon spends a significant amount of money on landscaping around our schools and our existing buildings, and my suggestion to the minister is that this year they contact the individuals in Riverdale Blooms - I believe Jenny Trapnell is one of the individuals involved in the Riverdale Community Association - and work with them with respect to any landscaping dollars that are spent there so they tie it in with the type of landscaping plans and that kind of thing they're doing in Riverdale. I think it would be a useful exercise to do that.

Can the minister give us those assurances that her department, in landscaping, will work with those types of small community organizations and groups?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, I'd like to thank the departmental officials who are listening and making a note of that, and I'll get back to the member.

Mr. Phillips: I hope that was a positive response from the minister. I'm not sure.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Phillips: The minister said, "Absolutely. You betcha." So, we'll look forward to the next Riverdale Community Association meeting where they tell us that they've just received a call from the Department of Education and they are going to work hand in hand with that great organization to help beautify one of the nicest parts of our fair city.

Mr. Chair, I want to go now into the new math curriculum K to 7.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Mr. Phillips: We'll get onto that later.

There has been a lot of difficulty in implementing the new course of studies, especially in split grades. This is the language-based program where students have varied language skills. Is there any consideration being given to hiring some more teachers or aides to help with the implementation of the new program?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, first of all, Mr. Chair, I think I need to make the obvious point that implementing a new curriculum is not new; it's something that's done on a regular basis. When the previous government was in office, curriculum changes were made. The new math curriculum that has been introduced is being phased in in the way that all curriculum is being phased in, where it takes a full three years for the curriculum to be fully in place. During the first year that the new curriculum is offered, the existing resource material is still available.

The new math curriculum was implemented as part of the work of the western Canadian protocol on curriculum, and there is increased work on harmonization of the curriculum across the western provinces for math, as well as for science, language arts and social studies.

Given the level of criticism that there has been about the new curriculum, I do want to make sure the member is aware of some of the support that has been offered to teachers and to schools and students, in implementing this new curriculum.

There have been inservices offered for teachers, there has been extra help available on the lunch hours and after schools for students, and there has been work with departmental employees coming to help teachers in implementing that new curriculum. We will continue to do that, and to make the curriculum consultants available to help teachers in implementing the new math curriculum.

We don't have plans, at this stage, to hire additional staff for that, but we can continue to allocate, as a priority, the departmental resources for math teachers to aid them in implementing that new curriculum.

Mr. Phillips: The minister says we implement new curriculum all the time, and we do have support for the implementation of that curriculum, but it appears to me that there seems to be a lot more growing pains this time with this curriculum than there has been with other implementation of curriculum.

So, how would the minister rate this? Does she figure this is what's happening now, and all the rumblings and grumblings we're hearing from parents, teachers, YTA and others, is normal with the implementation of new curriculum, or does she feel that this one seems to be a little more complicated than some of the others, and maybe requires a little more effort on behalf of the department to assist the teachers and individuals working on the implementation? Does the minister feel that what we're seeing now is just normal? Is that the impression the minister has?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The member's not asking one short, specific question, because it's not just the implementation of the new math curriculum that has been raised by the member opposite as a concern. The member also has asked a number of questions about the math results at F.H. Collins High School and the concerns that he had with that. When we look at the SAIP testings, which give a more complete picture of the Yukon math students, we do see an improvement over the last time those tests were done three years ago.

It's important, too, that we continue to evaluate and improve the reliability and the validity of the territorial examinations, so we have had a look at the math tests that have been provided and we've looked to students and have evaluated the test instrument as part of looking at how Yukon students were doing in math. Two test designers from Alberta were brought to the territory to work with Yukon teachers on test design and question development, and the information that we gathered from that will be used in developing the exam for 1998-99. Both the difficulty level and the design of the test, as it presently stands, were questioned. The school mark should, according to the assessment officials and the departmental professionals, be five to 10 percent higher than the territorial examination mark, and the Department of Education made that recommendation also in consultation with other jurisdictions.

The existing guidelines, in relation to the acceptable range of differences between school-awarded marks and the territorial examination marks, will be reviewed by the departmental assessment committee. This is consistent with the guidelines that B.C. and Alberta have established for achievement tests and for provincial exams. So, there is work needed to improve the evaluation in looking at the high school math.

The implementation of the math curriculum, following the framework developed by the western provinces and two territories, began during the 1997-98 school year. We do have a two-tiered academic math program offered, as well as a consumer math option that sets out learning outcomes for different difficulty levels of the math curriculum. We will continue to look at the best assessment models to use and to also ensure that we're providing support to the teachers who are implementing this new curriculum.

I think that one reason that it has been difficult is that the new math curriculum is problem-based. It requires language skills, as well as math skills. Now, language skills are fundamental to learning. That's one of the reasons why we think it's important that we support early intervention programs, like the reading recovery program, because if you can read well, you can also do math well. You do require language skills in order to do well in math.

I think that we'll get over this hump. As we continue to offer inservices and professional support and resource materials to the teaching profession, as well as extra help for students in the schools, that we'll see the new curriculum being implemented more smoothly next year, as we move into the second year.

Mr. Phillips: Well, I asked the question as to whether the minister felt it was normal or abnormal or whatever and I never really got an answer to that, other than the minister laid out what they're doing, but it sounds to me, though, that the minister is not prepared to commit any more resources to it at the present time than what is already there. So, I guess we'll see.

My fear, Mr. Chair, is that elementary teachers are now being overloaded with work as a result of trying to implement the new curriculum, which requires students to have a good handle on the English language. I think that points to what many students don't have at the present time and that points to another problem in our schools that we haven't dealt with.

Has the minister met with YTA and the school councils to discuss these immediate concerns in the last few weeks and can the minister bring us up to speed on what she has heard from the YTA or school councils if she has met with them?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I have a meeting with school councils coming up soon. I have also previously discussed this issue with the YTA. I think it's fair to say that the YTA does not have the same view of matters as the official opposition critic does. There are concerns about the education system performing well and that's understandable. That's the role of the Yukon Teachers Association to look after the interests of their members who are the teaching force in the Yukon. Nonetheless, it seems to me that there was a recognition that the department was providing the support that it could and that we were working on improving that support so that the curriculum could be implemented well with the appropriate support measures in place from the department.

Mr. Phillips: The minister wasn't really specific on YTA not sharing my view. Maybe the minister can tell us what YTA's view was, as expressed to the minister, with respect to this problem. What did they tell the minister?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I don't have with me my notes from the meeting that I had with the YTA, and I don't want to put words in other people's mouths and quote comments when I don't have notes to refer back to, so I'm just going to take the member's question under advisement.

Mr. Phillips: I don't have a problem with that, but the minister shouldn't say that they don't share my views, if she's not prepared to tell us what views they do share, or to share their views with us. I mean, I'd like to know where the difference is, or where the minister thinks the difference is, at least.

I want to move on to another area, and that's YNTEP. Has the minister had any discussions with the YNTEP steering committee, and has the YNTEP steering committee given any additional thought and passed it on to the minister, about the future of the program, where the program is at the present time, whether it's been successful or not?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft:

I want to be fair to the member opposite, and he's right. I indicated that YTA did not share his views. I guess when I said that, what I was referring to was the fact that the YTA do not allege, as the opposition critic has, that there is a crisis in math teaching and math marks in the Yukon.

Now, the Yukon native teacher education program negotiations - the Yukon government has an agreement with the University of Regina for the delivery of the YNTEP program at Yukon College. There is a steering committee in place, which includes the Council of Yukon First Nations and the Kaska and Yukon College. They are working on an agreement to bring forward for approval and for formal signature.

I have not been part of those negotiations, directly. With the collaboration of Yukon First Nations, we believe that new arrangements can be developed with Yukon College and the University of Regina that can be satisfactory to everyone concerned and ensure that First Nations continue to have strong representation in the school system.

Our government remains committed to the goals and objectives of the Yukon native teacher education program, and we're supporting this process of negotiating a new agreement with participation from the academic institutions and from First Nations directly.

Mr. Phillips: Can the minister tell me if she thinks the YNTEP program now is working fine? Is she happy with the program the way it is?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, that's not a simple question to answer. The Yukon native teacher education program, like the inequities it seeks to redress, has challenges to face. At the present time, we do not have a strong representation in the Yukon teaching force of First Nations people. That's one of the reasons that the YNTEP program was established.

The enrollment is not as strong as we would like to see it and people involved in the program - teaching the program, taking the program, and First Nations leadership - are working to increase the level of recruitment within the communities so that we can see more First Nation teachers in Yukon classrooms.

The member is also aware of the First Nations education review that was done and some of the recommendations that it made about improvements to a whole range of programs that serve the interests of First Nations. We are in support of making those improvements and are working with First Nations on how to respond to that.

Mr. Phillips: I thought I asked for this before in the technical briefing, but maybe I didn't.

Maybe the minister could provide us with a complete breakdown of the number of students that are in the program now. I thought I asked for that and I don't see it here, but I might be overlooking it. Anyway, if I could get that, what I really want to know is how many students have enrolled since it started, how many students have completed and how many of those students are now teaching in Yukon schools.

I have to tell the minister I've heard some pretty strong complaints about the program. One of the complaints that I heard most recently was that the program is a First Nations-only, of course, program, but it's not just Yukon First Nations only, and what I'm hearing is that there are a few people coming from other jurisdictions, enrolling in our program, which ends up costing the Yukon taxpayer a significant amount of money, because we virtually subsidize the program, completing the program and then going to work in other provinces - not moving into Yukon schools but going into other provinces and territories. So, we end up doing the training, subsidizing the training, and then we don't really do what we want to do with respect to Yukon schools, and that is to increase the number of First Nations teachers in the classrooms, because some of them leave.

Maybe the minister could also tell me at the same time how many of the graduates that have graduated from this program are still teaching in our Yukon schools, and maybe a breakdown of the schools in the Yukon and the numbers of YNTEP graduates that have gone to them. Have they gone to primarily rural schools? Maybe just a breakdown of the 28 or so schools in the territory and which one of them have YNTEP graduates currently in them? That kind of thing.

Then, Mr. Chair, I also raised with the minister an issue, which was a personnel issue. In relation to that, I discussed an evaluation of the overall program. It's been in place now for many years. Where are we going? How successful has the program been? Are we meeting our goals? Are the various schools out there that have YNTEP graduates in their program satisfied with the calibre of graduate? That kind of thing. I just ask the minister for her thoughts on that for the public record, if the minister could let us know how she feels.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I believe that the information that the member requested has been prepared, because I believe that I have also seen a breakdown of the numbers of graduates that have been in the program and where they're presently employed; however, we cannot find that piece of paper right now, so we will locate it and get it to the member.

To respond to his question about the value of the program overall and what school principals have to say about YNTEP graduates who come up and teach in their schools after they've completed their program, I think for the most part those teachers have been very successful in the schools where they are teaching.

The First Nation education review was, in part, an evaluation of that program, in that YNTEP was one of a number of programs that it looked at. They made a number of recommendations for possible changes. We're still working through those recommendations with First Nations and meeting with them to look at how we respond overall to recommendations that were made about improvements in First Nations education, both in the Yukon native teacher education program, in language instruction and in other areas.

The member raises a very good point, that it is important to evaluate programs and to ensure their success, and we will in the future be looking for ways to make improvements to that program.

Mr. Phillips: My suggestion to the minister, again, is that it be an independent evaluation, so that it's not done by the government or done by First Nations - it's done by somebody independent who makes the report available to the First Nations and the government on the successes or failures of the program.

But even more broad than that, is there any opportunity for existing teachers in our system - whether they be YNTEP grads or any other grads from any other jurisdiction - if there's concerns about their teaching methods, or just concerns - say they get an evaluation; we evaluate teachers all the time - is there a program where we offer the teachers an opportunity to go back and bone up, so to speak, on some of the things that they think they're lacking? I mean, do we have that kind of thing when we do an evaluation, or do we just do an evaluation, give them the evaluation, and if it's good or bad - is there any retraining offered, is what I'm asking, for those teachers who are involved?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: When a student teacher is evaluated, when they're paired with a classroom instructor for their placements as part of their education, that evaluation may - and often does - include a recommendation that the student teacher go back and work on a particular skill or a particular area.

The agreement between the Yukon Teachers Association and the government also provides for a number of professional development opportunities for all the teaching staff, whether they're YNTEP graduates or not. Professional development is a very important component of teaching, because the education system does change. When you're teaching students, you want to be current and be giving them an education, so that they can be current when they go out into the workforce, or into society.

I indicated previously that the First Nations education review provided recommendations that both the government and First Nations were looking at, and that was an independent review. It was conducted by a consultant and, in fact, it was the previous government who put out that tender, which was awarded to a local contractor. The report was completed after the change in government.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, the minister and I have talked about an example, and my concern is that what I'm hearing now is that the process that's involved in evaluation takes some time. You just don't go in and evaluate once and make a decision. There's a series of evaluations to determine whether or not things are fine.

So, my concern is, in the case where there is strong representation made by school councils, principals and others about these kinds of things, is there a mechanism by which we can accelerate the process and offer assistance - re-training assistance or anything - to an individual who may request it or may need it, or whatever? Is there any way we can accelerate it, or does it just run the normal course of events that sometimes can take a year or more?

My concern again then is, if there are concerns being expressed by principals or school councils, that there's a bunch of students who are involved in this as well, and we want to make sure that not only do we get a quick handle on the problem and offer assistance to the individual teaching, but also at the same time make sure that the students are not left out of the equation. So, that's my concern. I'm hearing that the process is a little long and that in some cases there needs to be - not all cases, but in most average cases, I think the process probably handles it, but there may be some cases where we have to react a little quicker, and I just wonder if there's any mechanism under the Education Act or any other processes by which the department can react to deal with a problem.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, the member's trying to skirt around identifying a specific concern in a specific school with a specific teacher, and I do want him to know that I understand what he's saying and that the personnel matters have been dealt with satisfactorily, I believe, and I'm not going to go into that any further.

The member referred to the process being lon