Whitehorse, Yukon

Tuesday, May 5, 1998 - 1:30 p.m.

Clerk: It is my duty, pursuant to the provisions of section 24 of the Legislative Assembly Act, to inform the Legislative Assembly of the absence of the Speaker. In his absence, the Deputy Speaker shall take the Chair.

Deputy Speaker: I will now call the House to order.

We will proceed at this time with prayers. I would ask members to bow their heads in a moment of silent reflection.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Deputy Speaker: We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.

Are there any tributes?

Introduction of visitors.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Hon. Mr. McDonald: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce in the gallery today Mr. Lu Tinggang, the Deputy Consul General of the People's Republic of China, Mr. Shi Gangzeng, Consul for Political and Governmental Affairs, and Mr. Wang Ding, Consul for Science and Technology.

They have been in Whitehorse since Sunday and have been touring the city meeting with trade and investment officials and local businesses.

Please join me in welcoming them to the gallery today.

Applause

Deputy Speaker: Are there any returns or documents for tabling?

Are there any reports of committees?

Are there any petitions?

Are there any bills to be introduced?

Are there any notices of motion?

Deputy Speaker's statement

Deputy Speaker: Before calling ministerial statements today, the Chair will provide the House with a statement on the point of order raised by the leader of the official opposition during yesterday's sitting.

The leader of the official opposition, in reference to the ministerial statement given by the Government Leader on the circumpolar sustainable development conference, asked the Deputy Speaker to "make a ruling on the appropriateness of this ministerial statement and whether or not it conforms with the rules of this House."

The rule covering ministerial statements is to be found in Standing Order 11(3), which, in part, states: "On ministerial statements... a minister may make a short factual statement of government policy."

The only other direction to be found is in the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Elections and Privileges of the 24th Legislative Assembly, which was tabled on October 10, 1979.

One of the recommendations of that committee, which was concurred in by motion of the House stated: "That ministerial statements be made only on subjects of significance and primarily for the purpose of announcing new government policies."

Previous speakers in this House have noted the difficulties faced by the Chair when points of order are raised about ministerial statements. Although Standing Order 11(3) requires that ministerial statements be restricted to statements of government policy, the report of the Standing Committee that was quoted expands their use to "subjects of significance."

As evidenced yesterday by the remarks of the leader of the official opposition and the leader of the third party and, subsequently, in response to those, the comments of the Government Leader, the question of whether something is a subject of enough significance to justify a ministerial statement can be contentious.

On April 6, 1988, former Speaker Sam Johnston stated, in a ruling on a similar matter to this, that, "Although there may be some disagreement between members as to whether that point is important enough to justify a ministerial statement, it is difficult to see how the Chair can begin making rulings based on judgments of the level of importance of certain matters. Such judgments are really political decisions and the Chair should be careful to make only procedural decisions."

The Chair concurs with Speaker Johnston about the difficult position that the Chair is placed in if called upon to make judgments on whether a matter such as the circumpolar sustainable development conference is a subject of significance.

This point of order also highlights a problem that Speaker Johnston signaled in another ruling that he gave on November 17, 1987. That is the point that, if the Chair were to rule a ministerial statement out of order after it has been given, it would not be possible to let the proceedings continue and opposition members would be denied a chance to respond.

The Chair would suggest to members that, if the content of ministerial statements has become a matter of major concern, it may be time to refer the matter to the Standing Committee on Rules, Elections and Privileges for consideration and recommendation.

The Chair would further suggest that, if such reference were made, it should direct the committee to develop more definite and helpful description for the purpose of ministerial statements and, also, to indicate the desired method for dealing with points of order raised about these statements.

The Chair thanks members for their attention.

Returning to today's daily routine, are there any statements by ministers?

This then brings us to the Question Period.

QUESTION PERIOD

Question re: Thomson Centre, empty beds

Mr. Jenkins: I have a question today for the Minister of Health and Social Services.

Their office has been contacted by Mrs. McIntyre seeking assistance for her husband who is terminally ill with cancer. Knowing many members of the McIntyre family, I was pleased to learn that Mrs. McIntyre was finally successful in having her husband John admitted to the Thomson Centre from the hospital where he can receive the care that he needs. Unfortunately the respite bed he is currently in is now required and Mr. McIntyre is to be moved back to the hospital. This moving back and forth for a person who is so ill amounts to inhumane treatment. I would ask the minister, therefore, on humanitarian grounds to take whatever steps that are necessary to ensure that Mr. McIntyre can remain and receive care in the Thomson Centre. Can the minister give his assurance?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Well, I can't give the member that assurance. What I can say is that we will undertake anything we can to provide a compassionate situation for the individual in question. We were able to have the individual in the Thomson Centre for a period of time; however, there was also some need with a child in this case who had some very special needs and, while we tried on the weekend to work out a situation that would work for both individuals, it just proved that, because of the special needs in this case, we were unable to do it. But I have directed the department to see what steps we can take with Mr. McIntyre.

Mr. Jenkins: While I appeal to the minister on humanitarian grounds, there are also very good economic reasons for making better use of the Thomson Centre.

As the minister well knows, the cost of maintaining an acute-care bed in the hospital is almost $800 per day and that is almost double the cost of a bed in the Thomson Centre. Can the minister explain why he isn't making better use of the Thomson Centre to help reduce the cost of running the hospital and giving terminal patients the care that they need?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: We are looking at ways in which we can maximize the use of the Thomson Centre. We are looking at ways we can maximize the resources that we currently have to save money and to make economical use of what resources we do have. I should point out, however, that the whole question of health is one which has dominated, certainly, this government. We have invested over $6 million in increased health and social services costs since last year, from mains to mains. And particularly with the hospital, we've invested an additional $1.4 million.

So, what we're trying to do is make sure that we adequately resource all health care.

Mr. Jenkins: Then can the minister advise the House why the Thomson Centre and the hospital are not all under the control and management of the hospital board, in order to provide an overall, cost-effective, integrated health care delivery system that would better meet the needs of Yukoners?

The hospital and the Thomson Centre were built and connected. That was supposed to happen. Why isn't it happening?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: In this case, we have a hospital, which has an acute-care focus, an acute-care direction. The board has indicated to us that that's what they want to pursue. We within our social services realm have responsibility for extended care needs. That's how the arrangement is set up.

I suppose if there were some indication that the hospital were to seek a different direction, we would work with them but, in this particular case, the hospital has given clear direction they want to stay within the acute-care focus, and I think we have to respect that, particularly in light of the fact that they're still finding their role, they're still finding their direction, and, I think, trying to achieve their ultimate objective in delivering the best health care in an acute-care mode.

Question re: Tetrapacks, recycling of

Mr. Jenkins: I have a question for the Minister of Renewable Resources on the issue of tetrapacks and cans of tinned food products.

Mr. Speaker, I rise in defence of those Yukoners who are having a tough enough time making ends meet, trying to stretch their family budget and keep enough food on the table. Unfortunately, this government isn't helping.

Can the minister advise the House why his government is imposing a deposit charge, commencing June 1 of this year, on these food and beverage containers? That deposit charge is higher than the refund, thus amounting to an additional cost of basic household food groups to every home owner - another tax.

This government gives a full refund on a bottle of beer. Is this government more concerned about the cost of beer for adults than the cost of juice and food for children? What's the explanation for this inequity?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: The department had done public consultation on this, as I said to the member yesterday in the debate on Renewable Resources. We have received direction to deal with these two containers, to have them as part of the recycling program, and it was from that direction that this department has gone forth and put both tin and tetrapacks as refundable items.

Mr. Jenkins: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Yukon has one of the highest costs of living in all of Canada, and the recycling regulations of this government are certainly not helping. They are adding to that cost of living here in the Yukon.

Why is this government attempting to make money on tetrapacks and tins of food that are household food items? Why isn't the deposit equal to the refund on food items? It can be so for beer. Why can't it be for food items? For beer bottles, it's okay. For food items and beverages for children, it's not okay. Why is this government imposing this new surcharge or tax on Yukoners?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Well, it's not a tax, as the member had brought up. It's about recycling, and it's about keeping the environment clean. Again, it is Yukoners who have spoken out and would like us to move in this direction, and we're carrying that direction out.

Mr. Jenkins: Well, Mr. Speaker, juice boxes are 90 percent lighter and take up 70 percent less volume than glass bottles holding a similar amount of fluid. Furthermore, while glass is recyclable, it is only being recycled at a rate of about 30 percent, so the other 65 percent of that glass is being thrown away. So, I would ask the minister, on environmental grounds, if he will give a commitment here today to make the deposit on tetrapacks and tinned food items equal to the refund charge in order to help protect the environment and help Yukon families by not imposing any new taxes on them.

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: We have made a decision to have this included as part of recycling items. There is a refund for those who take the tetrapacks to the recycling clubs.

There is a cost to keeping our environment clean. We will carry out the direction that has been given to us by Yukoners.

Question re: Tetrapacks, recycling of

Ms. Duncan: My question is also for the Minister of Renewable Resources.

Last night, during the debate on the department, there was considerable discussion regarding the recycling of juice boxes of all sizes, or, as we referred to them last night, tetrapacks. What we are actually discussing are amendments to the beverage container program. Last night in the House the minister said, and I quote: "I can tell the member that there hasn't been any final decision on this and I can take suggestions back and have them considered along with others."

At the technical briefing offered by the Department of Renewable Resources, both opposition caucuses were told that the tin and tetrapack containers would be added to the beverage container program, effective July 1, 1998.

After last night's debate, has the minister reconsidered this issue, or will tin and tetrapacks be added to the beverage container regulations, effective July 1 of this year?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: We're still carrying out the schedule that has been put forward. I have said to the members that these issues and concerns that have been raised will continue to be part of the discussions before final decisions are made.

Ms. Duncan: Well, a department document that I obtained says, "Consumers will pay a deposit on any tin, tetrapack, glass, plastic or aluminum beverage container sold in the Yukon after July 1 and will receive a refund for the container from any recycling depot. The exception is milk containers.

Mr. Speaker, soy-based baby formula is not a dairy product and it's not milk. It is sold in tin cans. It is an item that a baby drinks and it can be considered by some grocery people as a beverage.

I could ask the minister: does he intend to tax baby formula? I'm sure that's not a part of healthy communities. What this discussion emphasizes, though, is that there are a number of areas where the proposed regulations could have unexpected difficulties and costs for families. Will the minister reconsider the beverage container regulations and seek more public input on this issue?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: The members must be running out of questions. We're recycling old questions that we've gone through extensively in general debate.

We have given a lot of concern to those containers that are a part of household foods and have made decisions in regard to tetrapacks and tin cans for recycling, and the possibility, of course, will be to receive funds back as you turn these products in. We did not want to be able to be intruding on increasing costs to the consumer for foods.

The member asked about a certain container in regard to milk products and so on for babies. I don't believe that this is part of the product that is going to be included in this increase on deposits.

Ms. Duncan: Well, Mr. Speaker, these questions are about recycling but they're not being recycled.

I still don't have a clear answer as to whether or not these regulations will be in effect on July 1. The minister has said they will be but he's also said they're considering more public input.

The minister has said they didn't intend to put this recycling fee on baby milk. Soy-based formula is not milk, and the way one reads the regulations, as produced by the department, it could be considered on the recycling list. There is going to be some real public confusion around this issue.

I need a clear answer from the minister. Will the regulations be in effect July 1st?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: I said to the member that we are keeping this on schedule.

Question re: Local hire commission recommendations

Ms. Duncan: My question is to the Minister of Government Services and it concerns the local hire report.

Mr. Speaker, on April 23 the minister announced this government's response to local hire recommendations. The minister said, "I can report that three-quarters of the 40 recommendations are being put into effect right away."

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I've heard a number of complaints from the contracting community about confusion that this statement has created. The fact is, as our caucus was briefed by the department, none of the recommendations of the local hire have actually been implemented. "Implement now" doesn't seem to be implement now.

When will the changes, as adopted by the government, actually be made and in effect?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Well, actually, I can suggest that some of them have, indeed, been put into place. I refer the member to the question of the contract registry on the web, which was one of the things.

We have - boy, I can hear the members opposite. There you go. They are so overcome with mirth and joy that they're just cackling with joy and I'm pleased with that. I'm pleased that I can brighten up their somewhat dull and humdrum lives.

However, what I would like to say is that's an example of one. We have two of our staff assigned to work with departments on bringing about the implementation of the local hire recommendations, particularly working on those ones which we can bring into place right away; for example, such things as bringing in lower sole-source limits, things of that nature. We have used some of the basic principles in designing our contracts in Old Crow and also in designing the contract for the design of the Ross River school.

So, we have used some of the basic principles but, when we said "implement now", basically what we meant was that we were going to be trying to get those things in place as soon as we can.

For some of the others, if the member goes through the report, she will notice that they are going to acquire greater resources, or greater time, or whatever.

Ms. Duncan: Another concern I have with this policy is the cost of implementing the recommendations. In his statement to the House, the minister said the result will be better use of taxpayers' money. Recommendation nine, for example, says the business incentive policy should be extended. This will come with a cost. At a briefing arranged by the minister, I was told by officials - the officials the minister just mentioned - that the government has not costed this recommendation out. In fact, none of the recommendations have been costed out.

Can the minister tell this House why the government is going ahead with these recommendations if they have no idea what they're going to cost?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: Well, I think one of the things we'd be wanting to do is to find out what the costs are. For example, we have taken a look at a couple of changes in the BIP that is designed for maximizing youth employment. The indications are that the cost in that regard would be relatively minimal.

There are, however, some recommendations - for example, the one that springs to mind is the idea of extending the BIP to the trucking industry, and what we'd have to do is we would have to get a costing out of what that could actually mean.

I've just gone through the business incentive report for this past year and have a sense of the cost currently, but we're going to have to go through and price up, for example, if we applied it to - For example, I had a request from another department to see if there are ways in which the business incentive policy could be applied to some media-related issues. Quite frankly, it's not something that we had contemplated, so that's an issue I'll have to take to our folks, and see, in consultation with the department that made the request, what we could be looking at in terms of cost.

Ms. Duncan: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the local hire response indicates that the government plans to do more consultation before implementing some recommendations, and the minister himself has just restated that.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, the consultation is supposed to be done. Anyone adopting recommendations of a report would, you would think, have some kind of a cost-benefit analysis before they are at the implementation stage. If the government wasn't finished consulting, why did they announce that all of the recommendations were being followed? What's the point of more consultation if the government has already made up its mind?

Hon. Mr. Sloan: When I said that we would be consulting, we would be working with businesses, with industries and with labour to see what kinds of ways that we could implement this in the best possible manner. If, for example, we were to take a look at the request I just received from a government department to see if the business incentive policy could be applied to this particular industry, this is something that had not come up before. It had not come up in any of the discussions.

I think it probably came out of the interest in the Yukon hire report, and now we've been asked to look at it. That will necessitate us going and discussing with that particular industry what this would mean to their industry, how it could be used, and what kinds of benefits would accrue.

I don't think that this report is a static document. I don't think this is the final cut. I think that what this is is a blueprint. This is a direction for us to go in, and this is a direction, quite frankly, for us to work with industry and labour in the future.

Question re: Kopper King Trailer Park/CMHC joint venture

Mr. Jenkins: I have a question for the minister responsible for the Yukon Housing Corporation. The Yukon government's Land Acquisition Review Committee will be meeting on May 12, 1998, to consider some land applications. One application is for an enlargement for a mobile home park development near the Kopper King by Yukon Housing Corporation and 16098 Yukon Limited.

Can the minister advise the House what type of development is contemplated by this joint venture between the Yukon Housing Corporation and a private company, and how was this partnership with 16098 Yukon Limited arrived at?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: That, again, is the private sector looking at helping out in problems that we're facing in the Whitehorse area. We have worked with the private sector to try to alleviate the mobile home issues, and we have not made any final decisions on this joint venture, so it's ongoing.

Mr. Jenkins: Well, I don't recall seeing any requirement or a request for a proposal from the private sector published anywhere. Furthermore, could the minister advise the House who the major shareholders of 16098 Yukon Limited are? I've heard reports that a former NDP Cabinet minister is involved.

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: No, I cannot at this point say who the shareholders are. There are still discussions with the corporation with the joint-venture program and nothing has been finalized to date. There hasn't been anything at all. They are still working on whether or not this is possible.

Mr. Jenkins: So, we're at the point now where Yukon Housing and this company are jointly going together to LARC to apply for rezoning. In addition to that, they're going to the City of Whitehorse for a change in the official community plan.

Can the minister advise the House which party initiated the joint venture? Obviously, there must have been some backroom dealings, because this has never been out in the public domain. Was it the Yukon Housing Corporation or 16098 Yukon Limited? What other companies were considered for this joint venture or was it an exclusive arrangement with this firm?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: As the member knows, we have a joint-venture program within the corporation and the private sector does make inquiries to the corporation about these programs. They are the ones that approach us.

Question re: Dumps, ban on burning at

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community and Transportation Services.

Mr. Speaker, the government is in the process of developing new regulations for solid waste. One of the issues on the table is the burning of garbage at town dumps. The government recently made a decision to stop burning on an interim basis at the YTG-run, Mount Lorne dump. In other provinces, like Ontario and Nova Scotia, open burning at municipal dumps is completely prohibited. Is this type of ban in the works for other YTG-run dumps or are we looking at a complete ban on burning at all Yukon dumps?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is an issue that is near and dear to many hearts in the Yukon, to stop the burning. This is being done now, here, at the YTG dump at Mount Lorne in an experimental fashion, and certainly we'll have to be looking to see and hear what folks from the solid-waste regulation have to say on this.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, most communities in the Yukon burn their garbage regularly. This is the cheapest way that municipal governments can dispose of solid waste. It is not, however, the most environmentally friendly way to get rid of garbage. This government is on the record opposing adding extra responsibilities to municipalities without the extra funding to cover the costs. All the other options, like burying and recycling programs, will cost these municipalities more money than burning their garbage.

When the Minister of Renewable Resources bans burning at municipal dumps, will the Minister of Community and Transportation Services increase municipal funding to cover the costs of disposing of town garbage?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me say that what has been said in this House regarding what we could maybe call "downloading" from senior governments to junior governments is going to be a case based on consultation. Certainly, we will consult with the folks that are responsible and involved and will continue to do so until we can come to some type of reasonable arrangement. Certainly, the process that is taking place right now through the rural services policy, which is now out and about in the communities, is a part in that process.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, we are talking about offloading thousands of dollars' worth of responsibilities down to the municipal level, without the dollars to do the work. Will the minister commit today that, if the new regulations add new responsibilities to municipalities, they will receive the money they need to carry out their responsibilities in solid-waste disposal for Yukon towns and cities?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'll tell you what we will do and we'll certainly do it in a manner that is not arrogant, such as the federal government has consistently done to the territorial government saying, "This is what you get; take it. That's it; use it in your best way."

This government will commit to going out and talking with communities and finding better ways that we will be able to protect the environment and this is certainly so in this case. The process that is up and about at this point in time is the rural services policy, so as all mayors and councils know - and I will take the message to them again this weekend - we should be working together on this very important issue.

Question re: Predator control

Mr. Ostashek: Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Renewable Resources on the issue of predator control. The minister made some inflammatory statements in this House about the previous Yukon Party government's predator control program. He conjured up images of helicopter gunships. These images were not only disturbing to the public but they must have been very disturbing to the professional staff in Renewable Resources who implemented a very professional predator control program - a program that served as a model for other jurisdictions and I might add, had full support of the Yukon First Nations.

My question to the minister : can he explain to this House today why he's changed his position on predator control?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, we haven't changed our position.

Mr. Ostashek: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the minister has in fact changed his position. Perhaps he could explain why, then, when the Aishihik program was on and he was the Chief of the Little Salmon-Carmacks First Nation, that he took it upon himself to ask the previous Minister of Renewable Resources to implement the same predator control program in the Carmacks area. Why did he do that?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: If the member would like us to reflect on our previous periods, I think I can bring a lot up in regard to how that member has treated wolves in this country, and I don't think he would like that.

Mr. Ostashek: I must have touched a nerve. The member opposite has done the classic NDP defence - that was then, this is now. It's a traditional NDP flip-flop. The minister has stated that he doesn't support the methods carried out to protect the Aishihik caribou herd. Does the minister have full support of the Yukon First Nations for his new position?

Hon. Mr. Fairclough: I guess the member has not been listening in past debates in regard to our position with predator control. We've said time and time again that we would like to work with the communities and come up with different ways of dealing with this issue. There is a wolf conservation management plan that's out there. I know the previous government had supported it, and this Legislature did not show that support. I don't know where he's coming from. He's flip flopping around. He doesn't know the direction that he's going. He supports one project one time, and then later on, doesn't support it.

Mr. Speaker, we continue to go along the lines that we have said we were going to during the campaign and during our time in government, and we have not changed our position on that.

Deputy Speaker: The time for Question Period has elapsed.

Notice of opposition private members' business

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 14.2(3), I would like to inform the House that the third party does not wish to identify any items to be called on Wednesday, May 6, 1998, under the heading of opposition private members' business.

It is the Liberal Party's position that Yukoners would be best served by spending this Legislature's time on finalizing the budget debate.

Mr. Phillips: Pursuant to Standing Order 14.2(3), I would like to inform the House that the official opposition does not wish to identify any items to be called on Wednesday, May 6, 1998, under the heading of opposition private members' business in order to expedite debate on the budget.

Deputy Speaker: We will now proceed with Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I move that the Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Deputy Speaker: It has been moved by the acting government House leader that the Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

Deputy Speaker leaves the Chair

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Deputy Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. Is it the members' wish to take a brief recess?

Some Hon. Members: Agreed.

Deputy Chair: Fifteen minutes please. Recess

Deputy Deputy Chair: I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We are dealing with the main estimates.

Bill No. 9 - First Appropriation Act, 1998-99 - continued

Department of Tourism - continued

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any further general debate on the Department of Tourism?

Mr. Phillips: I have a few more questions in general debate.

Mr. Chair, one area that I have a concern with in this budget - the minister has talked about his commitment to tourism and I appreciate the fact that, in most cases, they have maintained the tourism budget and in some small areas there's an increase, but there's one area that, when his government was in opposition, they talked about it as a priority and that was the area of heritage.

Prior to the 1996 election, there was a TIA convention in Haines, Alaska, where there were some statements made by the critic for Tourism for the NDP at the time, and a recorded commitment was made by all three parties to continue with the Beringia project as well as the historic resources centre.

Since that time, the historic resources centre has disappeared from the budget.

There's no line item with respect to the building of the centre, so I just want to ask the minister and get it put on the record, Mr. Chair, whether or not this government intends to honour a commitment it made prior to the election that it would continue with the building of the historic resources centre attached to the Beringia Centre and do it within their first term, as was committed by all three parties at the Haines TIA convention?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Deputy Chair, as the member states, the historic resources centre is not in this year's budget, but certainly, pending the resources that we go through for the budgetary process, it is still there to be considered.

So, certainly it is not, as the member opposite says, dead and not a part of the five-year plan; that's not true. It's not in the budget for this year, definitely it's not, but it's certainly subject to the process and we will look at it again, considering it through the regulatory process.

Mr. Phillips: That, unfortunately though, is a change from a statement that was made by the Tourism critic prior to the election. There was no provision put on the commitment, "subject to the budgetary process." The critic, as did the critic of the Liberal Party and me for the Yukon Party, all committed to the building of the historic resources centre in the first term.

That was the question that was asked. That was the question that was answered by all three parties. So, it looks like this government, at the present time, anyway - we'll wait and see in future budgets, but at least in this budget - doesn't see that as as high a priority as it did back in 1996.

The second area that I have a concern with is that I notice several areas of reduction in the heritage budget. The Canyon City example is a good example, where the government backed away from Canyon City. Upon pressure from us and people in the community, I am thankful that the minister saw fit to find some $10,000 to hire interpreters for Canyon City for this summer, and I hope that that project continues, and I hope that the long-range plan for Canyon City with the Kwanlin Dun First Nation - the building of the interpretive centre that was going to be built there; I think the minister must have already seen the plans of the reconstruction of the buildings and the continuation of the archaeological dig that were worked on.

I hope that that's still on the books somewhere down the road and that it hasn't lost priority, as well.

My last concern, Mr. Chair, is over signage. A few years ago, we had several thousand dollars in the capital budget of the heritage department. There was $245,000 in 1996-97. It has been reduced to $207,000 in 1997-98 and it's down to $175,000 in this year's budget.

That signage area was put under heritage, because we noticed that, in the past, there wasn't the attention being paid to the tourism-related signs in a way that would complement the attraction or complement tourism itself. I know that the people in the heritage branch have done an absolutely outstanding job in building the new signs in the Dawson area that are going to go up this summer.

My concern is that if the minister keeps whittling away at this portion of the budget, we're not going to do very much in the way of signage in the future. We have a lot of signs out there that need to be replaced, upgraded and improved.

So I'm appealing to the minister to give this a higher priority. There's a great group of people working on the program. They've done a super job in designing some of the signs, and I'm really looking forward to seeing the new ones in Dawson, but we need new ones in Watson Lake; we need new ones on the Ross River-Faro road; we need new signs in the Haines Junction area, and this budget is being chipped away at every time we see this government come forward. Pretty soon there won't be enough money to do any signage in the territory.

My third concern with heritage, of course, is the cutback of the capital in the transfer payments to the museums. In many of the museums, I believe, some of the projects are not as active as they have been in the past.

The fourth area that I have a concern about with the priority of heritage is the government's position on the Mast House. I know that they took quite a strong position on the Taylor House, and they said because the legislation wasn't in place in the City of Whitehorse, they took care of the issue of the Taylor House, but here we have a house that is probably 40 or 50 years older than the Taylor House, and the government's saying it's the city's responsibility.

So my question there to the minister is, what happens to historic buildings, such as the Mast House, or other buildings that are maybe in the City of Whitehorse or in other cities in the territory, that are up for demolition but are historic?

We have a good example right now, the Carcross Caribou Hotel. Here we have the old Matthew Watson Store and that is actually what I want to talk about. The Matthew Watson Store is for sale. They haven't been able to sell it. They've got all the artifacts in there that are historic artifacts of the Yukon and they are going to be, it appears, liquidated and many will be bought by people who are not from the territory and these kind of artifacts will leave the territory. What is the position of the government with respect to these kinds of things? We don't have a lot of them in the territory. The Matthew Watson Store was a unique store in the territory. It has a great deal of history there and many of the other artifacts - the till, the scales - that are in the building are very valuable. Are we going to sit by and watch these disappear out of the territory or is the minister prepared to do something to try and make sure that these artifacts will stay in the territory?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Deputy Chair, first I haven't kept an order of the member's questions so I'll attempt to answer them. Well, I will answer them and I just hope I've caught all of them.

On the historic resource centre, we've talked about that now and, as I've explained, it is not in this budget but it is certainly not off the five-year capital plans. It's still within the department's wish list, certainly, but it is, as everything is, subject to the financial resources that we allocate during the budget process as was - and is - the Canyon City funding. I can say it wasn't through the member's prompting that we found, I believe, it's $11,000, if I can remember right. It was something that was a conscious decision that was made. We knew that we could not afford this but we knew that it was a good thing coming up and we had talked to the Conservation Society to see if we could continue with it and we did find the resources for it.

It is difficult at this time, through the budget process, as all members of the House are very well aware, to maintain what we have and then move on. It's a matter of checks and balances. It's a matter of prioritizing. It's not a matter of one being over the other in a personal type of way, but it's a matter of checks and balances.

And certainly, on the issue of the signage, yes, certainly, the signage budget has come down, but certainly, within the 1998-99 priorities that we have now, it includes the installation of the 15 new signs in the Klondike gold fields. We are looking at the completion of the Tintina Trench overlook site and we're looking to have that done in May. We're looking at an additional site on the Campbell Highway to be redeveloped, and an interpretive sign for the Alaska Highway north will be completed in this fiscal year.

So, I do understand the importance of the signage and where we're going, and I've chatted with my deputy minister in brainstorming sessions as to how we can make things better - spend wiser but make things better. Are there technologies out there?

We have it in the type of a situation right now where we can work our way through it, but I do share the concern of signage.

On the museums, under operation and maintenance, yes, the museums have gone down 0.5 percent, but certainly, based on their needs and their capital plans, we've endeavoured to work with them and we'll continue to work with all of the museums so that we might keep them up and moving.

Now, the member opposite puts together an interesting case - well, maybe it's not an interesting case but certainly puts a case forward - well, it's interesting also, so what am I saying - a case on the Mast House.

Certainly, the situation was entirely different when we had the Taylor House scenario come up. There was absolutely no resource or no way to go except to take concrete action, and this government did. We jumped in and took concrete action.

We said the house had to stay. It was due to significant pressure from the public at large. I was stopped many times in the street concerning the Taylor House.

Now that we have the city up with their bylaw in place and what not, it's encumbent that we work with the city and the city works with us, but it's also encumbent that the city recognizes their jurisdiction and stays within it. Now, they have established their jurisdiction in that area. They have made a very conscious effort. I've noticed, of late, that they're trying to find maybe different ways, but they made a very conscious effort. That is what their role and their responsibility is.

I can also say, and I will raise the fact, that there are many more historical buildings in the Yukon Territory outside of Whitehorse. I can think of some in the Dawson City area and, indeed, right in the Teslin First Nation area that are very prominent, historic homes.

As we go through the process and the challenge of looking at tourism in the future and how we might better increase and keep the Yukon as a high-quality destination, that will be one of the thoughts that we will continue to go with.

As far as the artifacts go, yes, I know that there are some concerns that artifacts are leaving the territory and being sold as is the case in Carcross, I believe, through the store there. We do have a Yukon Heritage Resources Board that is in place and functioning and working with museums prioritizing the different artifacts that are out there. So, certainly the member raises some very interesting points as to where we can go.

This government is very much desirous of maintaining and improving what we have here in tourism. That is the reason why. I know that both members opposite - the leader of the third party, who is the Tourism critic and the House leader of the official opposition - are desirous of seeing tourism increase and move and to keep it high end. Therein lies the direction and the feelings that a lot of Yukoners share. That's why we've gone ahead with the airport expansion, so that we might be able to encourage people to stay.

We've allocated $50,000 for future tourism strategy development. We spent a portion, as I was explaining last night, with Peter, Kent and Trent, looking at different ways. So, we are absolutely trying to spend wiser.

The government put forth $200,000. Again, we have to take a portion of that $200,000 to offset the interest rates on the dollars. We've negotiated deals with Air Transat. The member to my right, the Government Services minister, has the White Pass building renovations and the Taylor House renovations.

My colleague to my cheek left over here, the Minister of Renewable Resources, is working with the campground improvement, so all in all, the government is very, very much committed to working with the tourism industry and promoting tourism here in the Yukon. I certainly thank and welcome the encouragement and examples of how we can do better here.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, my point is that when in opposition, the NDP were quite critical of our government's heritage program. In fact, if you look at the record, our heritage program saw increases over the years. In fact, we developed a lot of new programs while we were there.

What I'm concerned about is that it appears now that the government is chipping away at the heritage branch in a couple of different areas that I've pointed out. It seems inconsistent with what they said before the election. This is only half way through their mandate, so maybe we'll see a higher priority put on heritage in the next two years. So, I'll leave that.

The minister didn't answer my question, though, on situations like the Mast House. He basically said that the Taylor House was our responsibility; the Mast House is the city's responsibility now that they have a bylaw.

All I want is a simple answer from the minister with respect to these kinds of issues, like heritage homes. Is there a safety net, so to speak, if any other government who has jurisdiction over a certain historical building fails to protect the building? What's the position of the Government of the Yukon? Will it stand by and watch the wrecking ball knock the building down, or will it exercise its final concern with heritage and move in to try to protect the historical building? Or will it just say, you know, "That's the city's responsibility, and we're not getting involved in this, and if they want to wreck all the historical buildings in the City of Whitehorse and not protect any of them, that's their business. We're not interested in it." Because I don't think I would hear that from people in the heritage community. I think the people in the heritage community want somebody to protect the Yukon's heritage.

I just wonder what happens, for instance, if the city doesn't protect the Mast House and it was to fall to the wrecking ball. Would the Government of the Yukon step in to protect it?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: In a short answer, I could probably say no, we wouldn't step in. Certainly the case of the Taylor House and the Mast House are two distinct, different cases, where the city did not have its jurisdiction, and the city does have its jurisdiction at this point in time.

The heritage branch, and the YHMA, will continue to encourage the city to be very much proactive and to look at and lobby and work with the city to encourage them, as I said, to be proactive, but to look at the distinct tourism value that heritage has. We know a good thriving example of that is within the Dawson City area and within the Carcross area, where there are heritage buildings that are preserved, that are there, and people do come to see them.

Again, we must recognize the city's jurisdiction, and will continue to recognize the city's jurisdiction.

The Yukon government, though, does support the municipal preservation initiatives, and we do that through our historic properties assistance contribution program - the provision of technical advice and property preservation, et cetera.

So, you know, the support is there for the maintenance and the inventory of the heritage properties. It's unfortunate that the city has made the decision that they have, but it is within their authority and it is their decision. Now, though, the citizenship at large - there have been some unique offers that have come from the citizenship at large - a lady in Riverdale talking about purchasing the house and doing things. I would like to see the community at large look to finding ways, and it's certainly very encouraging when you have citizens who come forth.

I do believe that, in cooperation and working with the city and with the heritage branch, through our heritage initiatives and other initiatives in the political system, that we would certainly be able to continue to preserve heritage buildings here.

Mr. Phillips: I thank the minister for the answer. I guess I'm a little concerned that we don't have a safety net of some kind to protect the demolition of these heritage houses. I can understand the dilemma the minister is in, because if you had something public that was out there, if it was going to cost other governments money, every one of them would back away from it if they knew that YTG would jump in in the end and save it.

But on the other hand, the heritage community is very concerned about losing these, and I'd like to see the private sector get involved, too, and save these homes. I think it would be a great thing for the City of Whitehorse and for the Yukon as a whole if this happened, but we don't have as large a private sector or large corporations that they might have in bigger centres.

They are more small businesses in the territory, and there aren't a lot of people out there with the wherewithal to come up with $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 or $50,000 to preserve or move to protect a building like that, which there might be in even Alaska or B.C. or Alberta. So we're at a little bit of a disadvantage. Maybe when our economy improves and we get all kinds of oil and gas exploration and all those big companies with money up here, we can convince some of them to kick in, but that's probably a long ways down the road.

Mr. Chair, the minister mentioned the airport expansion. Just one area there and that's the airport tower. It's still unresolved. I understand there's a meeting taking place in May. NAVCanada is coming up here with their people again in May.

I've heard that the Northwest Territories is virtually assigned an individual who virtually travels with the NAVCanada people, lobbying them all the time, working with them, ensuring that they protect the towers and they protect the services they have in their part, and we've only sent a couple of letters.

We haven't done a great deal of work there. My concern is that there may be some decisions made that are more economic or based on the dollar than based on the future.

Can the minister tell me if he's had any indication from Air Transat or any other carriers that not having a tower after next September, if that happens, will make a difference the following year whether or not they will arrive and depart from Whitehorse Airport, or have these carriers given him assurances that there will be no problem regardless if there is a tower or not?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Pardon me for jumping the gun there, Mr. Deputy Chair.

Yes, Mr. Deputy Chair, we have chatted with the NavCan folks and sent letters. I'm quite proud of the aviation branch within C&TS for monitoring it, because the NavCan folks said that that was the very best presentation that they had seen from the perspective of governments. So, they had said that they feel confident - now, this is in an unofficial way, of course, but they said that they feel confident that we would be able to retain the tower. So, it's more than just sending a couple of letters. We've been working with them and I have been working with my counterparts at political levels, and the deputy minister and the staff generally have done a very fine job.

I, myself, initiated a canvass of the carriers. Now, that's in my C&TS briefing book which I do not have with me right here but I can speak from some knowledge, if I may, and, no, all the carriers had said that that would not really affect their service. They would be able to still service the Whitehorse area because they do have control there. It's not like they're just off into limbo and not tracked. They are tracked.

But certainly I feel confident, with the NavCan presentation, that we do need a tower. We absolutely need a tower here. If we're going to look at bringing in DC-10s, and I'm trying to think - I think it was Condor, if I remember off the top of my head now, that they would not be able to come here because that is their company policy. And that's because of the unique terrain here. And the member opposite being a pilot - and I not being a pilot - would probably have the knowledge that it's just not geographically suited here. So there is no way that they would be coming with their DC-10s with or without a tower. So that is just out of the question. That is really their company policy. But, certainly, therein lies the answer as to the other companies that said it would not make a difference to them.

Mr. Phillips: Another issue that came up at the TIA convention was changes to the Employment Standards Act that will be implemented with respect to the local hire policy. The local hire policy is, of course, people doing business with the Government of the Yukon. But, if you change the Employment Standards Act, the Employment Standards Act applies to all sectors.

Does the minister have any idea? He doesn't have to give me an answer now. Maybe he can respond in writing. Based on the recommendations of the local hire policy that recommended some changes to the Employment Standards Act, what effect will that have on the tourism industry? Are there plans for consultation with the tourism industry with respect to employment standards?

Employment standards can really affect a seasonal business, if there are some significant changes. So, the industry should be given a heads-up with respect to any implications the local hire policy might have on any changes to legislation. I urge the minister to do that.

One of the last points I want to raise with the minister is the area of winter tourism; that is, snowmobile tourism. The local snowmobile club has been very active in preparing a lot of information and providing me with a lot of background information.

I was just looking at the snowmobile trail development in Newfoundland, and it is quite interesting. There's $5.8 million committed to snowmobile trail development in Newfoundland, and $1.1 million is provincial money - $1.1 million for one sector. Snowmobile trails and adventures are turning out to be a very huge business.

The Yukon is lagging considerably behind a lot of other jurisdictions, yet we have some of the greatest terrain in the world to take advantage of for this kind of thing. We only have to look at what the small City of Dawson has done with respect to two or three events that they hold in the winter. The snowmobilers would arrive in the Yukon with virtually some of their winter clothing and a credit card.

They would rent snow machines and stay in our hotels. I mean, it would be great for us in the winter, when our hotels are not as full.

So there's not a lot in this budget with respect to support for that industry. I just want to encourage the minister to lobby more strongly. If he's thinking on developing more programs, or if they want to put more emphasis on tourism with more new money - not take away from some of the existing programs, but more new money - then they should give strong consideration to the snowmobile industry in the territory and the potential we might have. I was quite surprised to find out that New Brunswick and Nova Scotia have quite a snowmobile industry in their provinces, and a lot of it's from Europe. Wide bodies arrive in Halifax, full of Europeans who want to take a two- or three-week winter vacation, and the hotels and lodges in the hinterlands in those provinces are more full now than they were in the regular tourism season. They're more full in the winter than they were in the summer. It's made the winter season almost their major tourism season in some areas. We could sure use some of that business but, like I said, we are behind.

My last question I have for the minister is one that I've heard in the industry time and time again. I know I've asked this question before, but I'm going to ask it I think in every budget we're in. Tourism is the second most important contributor to the Yukon economy behind mining, and it's quickly gaining on mining. It's the largest employer in the sector, and there are still rumours floating about that this government is considering merging Tourism with the Economic Development department.

I just want to put the minister on notice that the industry is certainly not in favour of that. The minister would face a deluge of calls and meetings, and probably demonstrations and everything else, if they even thought of doing it, especially in light of the role that tourism is playing today in our depressed economy.

So maybe I could just get the minister on record saying that their government has absolutely no intention whatsoever of merging the Department of Tourism with the Economic Development department, and that it's an important industry in the territory, and it's a stand-alone industry, and their government's not going to tinker with that.

Can the minister give us those assurances?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Let me start from the beginning, if I may, on the local hire policy and the employment standards. Yes, I will reply in writing to both members to let them know, and I appreciate the attitude that I can do that.

In the snowmobile industry, though, yes, that's very, very interesting - the trek over the top. It's exactly a very positive example of a good winter product that would bring new dollars, new resources, and, as the member said, some winter clothes and a charge card are just exactly what we want them to bring.

Renewable Resources, Tourism and Community and Transportation Services are working with the Klondike Snowmobile Association to explore initiatives and new ways. There are certainly a lot of considerations to be taken in. There are the land use planning issues that have to be all worked out. There are the trappers' trails. There is also the Canada Trail that one of my colleagues is quite enthused about and anxious to get that connection, not only a unity connection to the rest of Canada, but you can hike it, you can trek it, you can ski it, and you might even be able to snowmobile it. So, certainly, we're getting the infrastructure developed there, and I hear the member opposite when he says to look at new ways and not to jeopardize or take away from what we've got.

I certainly will go on record at any time saying that I believe very strongly in the fundamental, intrinsic cultural value of snowmobiling and of winter tourism and all components of tourism to the Yukon Territory. I see that as definitely the way to go.

As far as the rumours and rumours and rumours out there about a merger - certainly, I can say quite categorically that it is not on the government's plan, and I hope that will bring comfort to all people out there who are concerned about this. It is absolutely not on the government's planning initiative to do that.

Ms. Duncan: I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Department of Tourism's budget, and the last question from the Member for Riverdale North leads nicely into what was one of my first questions concerning the overall direction of the department and ways of work, if I might.

This discussion stems back to the 1996 TIA convention, when I represented the Liberal Party, the Member for Riverdale North represented the Yukon Party and the Member for Whitehorse West represented the New Democratic Party.

One of the ideas that was put forward by the Liberal Party at that convention was the suggestion that there be an examination of new ways of work with the tourism industry, and the turn of phrase at the time was a special operating agency.

Now, just to give some background to the minister, I understand that Tourism British Columbia started out as a special operating agency and has moved to a Crown corporation, and in Alaska they have something called the new millennium plan, which I have reviewed in some detail and discussed briefly with some members of the tourism industry. I'm just wondering if the minister could outline if there is any examination within the department or with the partners for any discussions of new ways of work?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Specifically, Mr. Chair, to a special operating agency for tourism or, in the case of the B.C. model, their marketing initiatives - another interesting example is the Alberta model and the dismal failure of that model. I'm really quite concerned. To put it in a nutshell, no, it is nothing that I want to do. Absolutely not.

I'm looking to find new ways, and better ways, maybe - not new ways because there is a certain correlation now with the industry - but I'm certainly always looking to improve on those types of initiatives, to work closer with the industry, to make sure that the industry is an umbrella industry representative of all people in the tourism industry.

I'm certainly very interested in marketing the Yukon Territory and to continue marketing the Yukon Territory in the aggressive fashion that we have. The Marketing Council, as the member is very well aware, has put forth a concept initiated by the two co-chairs, I do believe, and they are the marketing director of Tourism and the executive director of TIA and they will look at how we can do that.

But no, I hope it brings comfort that we're not looking at a special operating agency. If that's another nasty rumour out there, I certainly can say that it's not in the government's plans.

Ms. Duncan: Well, the government has been in office for 19 or 20 months now and the minister has become very well-acquainted with the success of organizations like the KVA. It's been successful for many, many years, and I believe the news reports indicated it has something in the neighbourhood of a $1 million payroll. We have the Tourism Industry Association, the First Nations Tourism Association, the Wilderness Tourism Association, the Anniversaries Commission, the Yukon Tourism Education Council, the Yukon Convention Bureau and, of course, there are the festivals, the Northern Storytelling Festival, and the Quest, the museums, YHMA, as well as the Tourism Marketing Council. The minister has a number of partners, and each has their distinct roles in this partnership.

Now the minister has ruled out a special operating agency as one model. I'm interested in whether or not the minister is being regularly briefed on the Alaskan new millennium plan and whether there is discussion of any other models that have been used, some successfully and some not. Are there any other discussions?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No, Mr. Chair, we do not have other initiatives that are out there. Certainly, as I can reiterate, we are looking to strive and rise to the challenge of new tourism initiatives and to look at new ways and certainly to empower people and to have good functioning umbrella organizations.

Ms. Duncan: I thank the minister for that response, in terms of the overall direction of the department.

The arts branch of the department - have there been any initiatives to work with the Minister of Economic Development in terms of securing any form of an arts branch economic development agreement - an arts EDA for the Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes. I've been sitting down for the last month and a half looking at that. We're one of the latest jurisdictions to tap into that. I can give examples of other jurisdictions that get big dollars, but it is something we're going for.

Now, I have to say that I have to have Cabinet approval, of course. It is in the process, and I am seeking Cabinet approval.

Ms. Duncan: If it's not a violation of Cabinet secrecy, could we have some kind of time frame or an estimate? Are we looking at another 18 months?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: I'm not certain if it's in violation of Cabinet secrecy or anything, but, at this point in time, I just reviewed the paper approximately one week ago. I sent it back for some changes that have to be done, and then it's going to be going to Cabinet. What I will ensure, though, is that I will give it to the official critic of the official opposition, and I will get it to the leader of the third party, the Tourism critic, as soon as it's done.

Ms. Duncan: I'm not sure that gives us an indication of when we might see the money in place, but that would be prejudging Cabinet.

Some Hon. Member: (Inaudible)

Ms. Duncan: Okay, let's look for an announcement in the fall.

Just related to that, I would like to take just a couple of minutes, if I could, and pay tribute to the new film launched last week, As the Crow Flies. I would especially like to extend - I guess the best way to describe it is "my heartfelt thanks" - to Rob Toohey and Tina Sebert and the talent of Chris Guichon and his flying capabilities. That film involving all Yukoners is a real testament to Yukoners and to the land we live in. My compliments to everyone involved in the department - those who worked on this project.

It was an honour to be invited to share in that gala evening. I truly left with a lump in my throat, which was a testament to the film's power, as well as the Yukon and the land we live in.

On the discussion of filming in the Yukon, can the minister give an indication of when we might see a replacement for Ms. Howlett in place within the department?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No, I couldn't. That's a personnel matter, and I really don't know, but I could search into it and get personnel and the Public Service Commission to get back to you.

Ms. Duncan: By legislative return, I'd be interested in a date of when that position might be filled. I'm sure it's in someone's notes, and perhaps if the minister could give an indication of other vacancies within the department and what the time frame is for filling those, too, that would be helpful.

I have a few very specific questions and a couple of suggestions, and I'll try to keep them focused and to the point. One complaint that's come to me from a constituent is the issue around brochures, and I've dealt with this many times when I was the manager of the Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce, and that's the availability. In this particular instance, we had a parent volunteer working with a class of 30, going out of the territory, wanting to take packages and information to their host families. The response they got from the Department of Tourism was, "Sorry, we don't do that." The City of Whitehorse very graciously had packages ready in half an hour. That's not a very ringing endorsement of the whole Yukon. It's certainly a ringing endorsement of the efforts of the City of Whitehorse tourism officer.

Now, I appreciate that they are different jurisdictions and different focuses. However, I would like to bring that to the minister's attention and ask if he would follow up on it.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, I certainly will follow up on it. I can say that I've just been informed that - although I'm not involved in personnel, other people here with me are - the interviews are going to be in a couple of weeks, and we're looking at hiring for Patti's replacement within a month.

Ms. Duncan: I'm especially pleased that one of the individuals that works on product and market development is with the minister.

I'd like to draw another concern to the minister's attention, and I have to tell the minister a short situation that affected me personally. My family wanted to experience the Yukon during Easter weekend via renting a cabin or a location somewhere, and the response I received from one business was, "I'm sorry. We don't cater to the North American market." I was very upset by that response. I understand it perfectly, and I would never presume to tell private business how to do their business. I am concerned that Yukoners themselves need to support and work with the tourism industry. We need to feel that we're a part of it and to be a part of it.

I'm wondering if the minister could outline what steps we take when we have someone coming in saying, "Well, I'm interested in starting a tourism business," and if we remind them that we also want business from fellow Yukoners.

The flip-side of that is that, this weekend at the Trade Show, there was a booth with a First Nations business on the Yukon River, and the individual whom I spoke with was very interested in having Yukoners and Whitehorse residents come down on a trip for dinner. So, there are two sides of that sort of product development that I've experienced, and I'm just wondering if the minister is aware of these concerns, and if, in discussing product development with industry, we are also cognizant of working with Yukoners.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Actually, I do know that we have a very fine business centre over there. You can walk in and, right from the beginning, you can start to develop a business plan and move on through. The staff are very conscientious and very courteous in encouraging people in the development of a business.

Now, tourism, as we know, is very focused on their markets. Certainly, one of their markets is the North American market, the wheeled market. As I've been told, it's the bread-and-butter market of the Yukon Territory.

Certainly, we have to find out about that, so I'll chat with the department regarding that and try and get some information back, which I will definitely share with the member opposite. But, certainly, we try to encourage the local market.

Most businesses, no matter where you are, rely on the local market, as they should, because this is Yukon. My joy of travelling, get this, would be a nice, wonderful trip to Old Crow for two weeks instead of Disneyland, and I know I'm not the only one that has that attitude. So, I will certainly check into things.

Ms. Duncan: Well, Mr. Chair, that relates to my next question. There was some talk of a homecoming program, inviting people who used to live here but also using individuals who are travelling outside to sell the Yukon. We have to know what we're selling and we have to experience it ourselves.

What programs are underway in the department in this regard?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: At this point in time we have the passport program that gets folks to come in and travel and distribute out and about. But I've got to say the homecoming program was sitting down in consultation with the industry and they thought that, with the resources that we had, it would be better to spend those resources in other areas. It's very difficult to market. The cost was, if I remember, somewhere around $100,000, mostly for mailing, et cetera.

Certainly, though, the challenge - and I'll keep coming back to the challenge of post-anniversaries and where we're going to come - is that we have to have a complete, new outlook, if I may, as to how we would proceed to move into the future to secure the tourism industry.

Ms. Duncan: The homecoming program is just one aspect of working with Yukoners in terms of tourism and promotion. The thrust of that question was not to highlight that as the answer, but to highlight this issue of Yukoners being able to experience the Yukon and, in turn, to sell the Yukon. I was relating a very personal experience of not being able to do that, and I would like to hear from the department on that.

The economic survey that was done by the department - and the minister has mentioned a business service centre, and I concur with the minister, and I got the statistics, thanks to the department, of the clients they have served, and it is a wonderful resource within our community. It's well-used, very well laid out, and it's very user friendly.

The economic survey that was done by the department did not include any travel by Yukon residents. Are we going to do the survey again and, this time, will it include travel by Yukoners to other places within the Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, and yes.

Ms. Duncan: The Wilderness Tourism Association - I had many members privately express dissatisfaction with the working and development of the website, and some frustration while that was being developed and worked on. Have these issues been resolved? Are the websites up and running and functioning well to the satisfaction of the industry?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, I do believe it has been resolved to the satisfaction of the industry.

Ms. Duncan: One of the agencies involved in developing that wilderness tourism website was Parallel Strategies, and I understand, via a memo dated April 29, that Mr. Prodan - there was some controversy regarding him earlier in this session - is still with Parallel Strategies. Is that the minister's understanding?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No, my latest understanding is that he has resigned.

Ms. Duncan: Well, Mr. Chair, that was my understanding as well but I've since seen a copy of a memo that indicated that Mr. Prodan was still working with this company. Could I just ask the minister to take that matter under advisement and review it?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: I would have to check on that. I was told that he resigned and he is not associated at all now with the Tourism account. Does that mean that he has ability to go someplace else? I'm not sure. I'll have to check and see if I can actually do that and if I can, well then I'll certainly contact the member opposite and let the member opposite know.

Ms. Duncan: I wrote the minister a letter asking some followup questions with regard to the last full-service agency contract and I appreciate that the minister hasn't had time to review that or respond to me as yet. One of the questions I asked was that I wondered if we would be continuing, through the full-service agency, a relationship in Germany with Mr. Berghold I'm just wondering if a decision has been made on that?

The question I asked was whether or not Parallel would be continuing their relationship, subcontracting in Germany with Holger Berghold or if a decision has been made on that yet.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No, Mr. Deputy Chair, they are not at all related in companies, not at all. But there is a need for them to work together occasionally because one is our European representative and, of course, one is our marketing agent.

Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, I didn't make that question clear for the minister. I understand that this is a separate company, but under the previous full-service agency contract, there were a number of subcontracts let to this individual to do marketing in Europe.

We have a new full-service agency. Are we going to use the same subcontractor in Europe or will we be using a different one? That's my question.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Deputy Chair, if the member opposite would give me the time, I will have to check into that and find out.

Ms. Duncan: Could I also ask the minister to have his department officials review that standing offer agreement with Parallel and review it in light of the local hire recommendations to see where the recommendations will apply to the standing offer agreement - where they will apply and where they will not? Could I ask that that be reviewed and just a legislative return sent to me?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly.

Ms. Duncan: I'd like to extend a warm Yukon welcome to the director of marketing. I guess we don't introduce him as "new" any more, according to the Tourism Industry Association convention. I'd like to extend a welcome to him.

I noted in some of the media information when he first arrived, he had expressed a concern re: attracting western Canadians to the Yukon. I think the exact quote was, "Find ways to get more western Canadians to vacation in the Yukon." In light of that, I'd like to just ask the minister to address the participation in the Canada 3000 tour. It's my understanding that Canada 3000, who fly into the Yukon during the summertime, do a number of shows throughout Canada. There were five shows, wherein the Yukon was represented by an Alaskan marketing manager from the Alaska Division of Tourism, and shows in eastern Canada where the Yukon was representing both Alaska and the Yukon.

Now, it's my understanding that Canada 3000 was very disappointed with this poor showing on the part of the Yukon. I'm wondering if the minister will take that under advisement and commit to me that, next year, the Yukon will be fully represented at all of the Canada 3000 shows as opposed to half of them.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Deputy Chair, as we move to the post-anniversary - and I was going to say "decade," but everything is going to be post-anniversaries here. Wherever it's appropriate and makes good marketing sense, we'd be looking at such a partnership within the marketing.

I'd just like to go back just a bit further here to say that we're looking more and more at the Canadian market to bring those people here to the Yukon. What better experience for Canada than to have the Yukon. Of course, you know, probably every minister says that across the country. That also includes the visiting of friends and relatives.

So, certainly, where it makes sense, we will move on that, and we will have that discussion, and I will get back to the member opposite on it.

Ms. Duncan: Could the minister outline for me just a short outline of the familiarization tours - fam tours? How are the vendors chosen? For example, if we are entertaining western Canadian writers and decide to take them on a dogsled tour and out for dinner and whatever - do a familiarization tour of the Yukon - how do we choose the vendors?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Mr. Chair, I must congratulate the member opposite for asking a question that is not contained in 10 bullets of a briefing note. You've got a mingy there, I'll tell you. Of course, it's logical that the members must have a product that the wholesalers are looking for, because it's got to be market driven. But, certainly, I will have to get back to the member opposite.

Certainly, they do identify and help fund these ones, but as to the specific process, I would have to get back to you.

Ms. Duncan: There is some suggestion that, on these fam tours, people choose what they want to do, which I understand; that if they want hiking and so on, they would do that. However, there are perhaps half a dozen people who could then take them on a hiking excursion. So, how do we pick and choose is my question, if the minister could get back to me on that.

I'd like to ask about the tourism plans. I asked in the briefing and I've received a note from the department that is quite thorough. However, there's nothing written under "Whitehorse" and I'm quite certain that the Whitehorse area tourism plan was completed in 1994. The forecast update is 2003. Are there any updates planned before then?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly the member opposite is correct. That is when we were going to do it. We said, I believe in the budget speech I mentioned, that we're going to look at attempting to do and complete three plans this year, which is up and above the normal one plan per year. But certainly we're looking to always expedite and to keep up with the times, and certainly that is a part of the challenge. So we are looking at them, as the member said, to the year 2003, but we're doing three this year and, as resources are allocated, we'll have to take that into consideration.

Ms. Duncan: Just to verify: the three we're doing this year are Kluane, Old Crow, north Yukon and the Campbell. Is that correct? Yes, the minister's nodding.

Just a correction to the department's briefing note. They should add "1994" under "Whitehorse".

The GST is not anybody's favourite topic. However, just a note from my tourism notes, the Finance minister had announced some time ago a review of the visitor rebate program to assess whether the current design and administration could be improved.

I'm just wondering if the Department of Tourism liaises with the Government of Canada in tracking the applications for the visitor rebate program from the Yukon. We have a lot of cross-border traffic, of course, with Alaska. I'm just wondering if information in terms of the visitor rebate is being made available to these people, and if we're doing anything to track not only the applications, but also Government of Canada initiatives in terms of improving this program.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: We certainly liaise with the Canadian Tourism Commission but I don't think that we actually track it, but certainly we can check, as we go in and do the economic survey, if that could be a part of it. So certainly, it's a good suggestion and I thank you.

Ms. Duncan: I didn't intend for this debate to engender a ton of work for the department but it seems to be going that way.

The 1999 annual tourism guide - could the minister just elaborate? What will be the focus for 1999's tourism guide?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, Mr. Deputy Deputy Chair, that is to be determined at this point in time but certainly that is a project of the Marketing Council and their small input is built into that. I image, though, it will be revolving around the four Ps that we've come up with in the focus test results.

Ms. Duncan: Well, Mr. Chair, perhaps I could just advise the minister that I've had a strong lobby that adventure tourism is very interested in being part of that focus and the pull-out, if you will.

The Air Transat flights - can the minister provide any more information than what has been provided to date? I'm looking to find out if the additional equipment required at the airport has been purchased and is in place. That first flight's only 12 days away. Has the additional equipment required been put in place and have the additional Customs officers been hired? Can the minister provide an update?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Certainly, I can give an update. Air Transat has contracted the following company to handle their 1998 flight operations: it's the Canadian Airlines for the ramp operations and aircraft maintenance; Air North through the passenger check-in; and Yukon Travel for the customer service representatives. And yes, I will go on the record saying that we have worked with the Customs folk and that there is a process put into place at this point in time.

The dollies, I believe, are here now. There is no need for a push-back. The air stairs are on loan from Canadian Airlines, and there is the purchase of an air-start that is coming about at this point in time to have on record in case of an emergency.

Ms. Duncan: Could I have, by legislative return, a final accounting of that, too - perhaps in the minister's other department - of our investment in this regard?

The minister has said that Canada Customs officials and arrangements are in place. For the flight with Fulda, the arrangements were that the Customs officer travelled at Fulda's expense to Germany and cleared people en route. When the minister says that Customs officials and arrangements are in place, exactly what are those arrangements?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: I'll just read directly from the briefing note. Canada Customs have also advised that two additional Customs and Immigration agents will be hired for the summer season. That's in addition to the three full-time agents, and all will be utilized to ensure the fastest possible expediting of the aircraft's passengers and to further assist two Whitehorse Airport commissionaires who will also be enlisted to direct pedestrian flow within the terminal.

Ms. Duncan: The sales figures - does the minister have an update on the flights and, from the wholesalers' perspective, how this has been received? I understand very well, and the minister in his letter said 73 percent of the 16 flights arriving in Whitehorse this summer are sold. That's as of March 22. Now, that's a month and one-half ago, almost. Could we have an update on that, please?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, we just received an update as of today - just a short while ago - and we can advise you that an outgoing flight has been cancelled. Instead of creating any confusion, let me read it to you, okay?

It says: "Air Transat has advised, just today, that special airfares have been offered to European wholesalers to both Whitehorse and Vancouver on the first seven flights from May 19 to June 30. Air Transat have also advised that the June 2" - and this was the outgoing flight - "has been cancelled due to low numbers of sales on the Whitehorse-to-Frankfurt flight that day." That's simply for the reason that people don't want to go back yet, which is good for us. Sales on the June 2 inbound flight transfer to Whitehorse will operate as scheduled, and passengers who originally booked on the cancelled flight have been rebooked on scheduled carriers to Germany. The sales on remaining flights are extremely good and the airline advises that approximately 65 percent of the entire aircraft capacity at this time has been sold.

Ms. Duncan: Okay. I'd like to review the minister's answer and if I have additional questions on that I'll get back to him in writing.

The last question I wanted to touch on, in the interest of time, is the training trust funds. Now, I understand these are administered with TIA, one of the partners in tourism in the Yukon. Can the minister give an update as to the uptake on the training trust funds, and an update in terms of YTEC?

Does the minister receive regular reports from the Yukon Tourism Education Council as to their training initiatives and how many people have achieved their diplomas, and that sort of information?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: No, we don't have that information. The training trust fund is developed through Education and administered by the Tourism Industry Association, but I will certainly relay that and get an answer back to you on your question.

Ms. Duncan: I'd appreciate it. I've given the minister a number of areas to review that I would like legislative returns on. If I could just ask that that be done as soon as possible, I think I could, at this point, move on to line-by-line debate, Mr. Chair.

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there further general debate?

Mr. Phillips: Just one brief point, if the minister, in providing the legislative returns to the third party, could they provide the same returns to us as well? We'd appreciate it.

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Absolutely.

On Corporate Services

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there general debate?

Ms. Duncan: If there's a brief explanation from the minister, perhaps in general, that would be helpful just to give us a minute.

On Operation and Maintenance Expenditures

On Operations

Operations in the amount of $983,000 agreed to

Corporate Services in the amount of $983,000 agreed to

On Heritage

On Operations

Operations in the amount of $282,000 agreed to

On Museums

Museums in the amount of $367,000 agreed to

On Historic Sites

Historic Sites in the amount of $137,000 agreed to

On Yukon Beringia Interpretive Centre

Yukon Beringia Interpretive Centre in the amount of $358,000 agreed to

Heritage in the amount of $1,144,000 agreed to

Deputy Deputy Chair: Any questions on the statistics?

Ms. Duncan: Mr. Chair, I would just like to have a point put on the record. It's a question I raised in the Tourism briefing and that is the issue around working with the executive directors of organizations, the museums, in terms of if there is a salary increment being negotiated by YEU that's not reflected necessarily in our core funding to museums for their executive director position. Could I ask the minister, once a settlement has been reached with YEU, if we could have a note as to what the cost would be if museum staff, their core individuals, were funded to a similar position level? What would be the impact on our funding to them? Could I just have that on the record as information from the department?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: Yes, on record, we'll provide it.

Deputy Deputy Chair: Are there further questions on statistics?

Some Hon. Member: Clear.

On Industry Services

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate on Industry Services?

On Operations

Operations in the amount of $470,000 agreed to

Industry Services in the amount of $470,000 agreed to

On Marketing

Deputy Deputy Chair: On Marketing, is there any general debate?

On Operations

Operations in the amount of $1,396,000 agreed to

On Public Relations

Public Relations in the amount of $111,000 agreed to

On Promotions

Promotions in the amount of $1,591,000 agreed to

On Information Services

Information Services in the amount of $1,794,000 agreed to

Deputy Deputy Chair: Are there any questions on the Statistics?

Marketing in the amount of $4,892,000 agreed to

On Arts

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate on Arts?

On Operations

Operations in the amount of $1,400,000 agreed to

Deputy Deputy Chair: Are there any questions on the Statistics?

Arts in the amount of $1,400,000 agreed to

Deputy Deputy Chair: Are there any questions on recoveries?

Operation and Maintenance Expenditures for the Department of Tourism in the amount of $8,889,000 agreed to

On Capital Expenditures

On Corporate Services

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate?

On Office Furniture, Equipment, Systems and Space

Office Furniture, Equipment, Systems and Space in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

Corporate Services in the amount of $10,000 agreed to

On Heritage

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate?

Mr. Phillips: Just one question - we have been meeting with the department on this one, and that's the Beringia sculpture, "Where the Legends Meet." I understand that it was going to be completed around mid-May. Is there a scheduled unveiling for this sculpture, and what day is that?

Hon. Mr. Keenan: At this point in time, we're still looking to have the sculpture completed on May 13. I'm not sure if the unveiling is for that date. I'll certainly make sure that both the official critic and the leader of the third party are notified in time so that they would be able to attend.

On Historic Resources

On Yukon Beringia Interpretive Centre

On Capital Maintenance

Capital Maintenance in the amount of $25,000 agreed to

On Heritage Attractions Site Support

Heritage Attractions Site Support in the amount of $250,000 agreed to

On Museums

On Museums Assistance

Museums Assistance in the amount of $314,000 agreed to

On Exhibits Assistance

Exhibits Assistance in the amount of $150,000 agreed to

On Artifact Inventory and Cataloguing

Artifact Inventory and Cataloguing in the amount of $88,000 agreed to

On Conservation and Security

Conservation and Security in the amount of $53,000 agreed to

On Historic Sites

On Historic Sites Maintenance

Historic Sites Maintenance in the amount of $235,000 agreed to

On Historic Sites Inventory

Historic Sites Inventory in the amount of $75,000 agreed to

On Ft. Selkirk

Ft. Selkirk in the amount of $200,000 agreed to

On Historic Sites Planning

Historic Sites Planning in the amount of $75,000 agreed to

On Interpretation and Signage

Interpretation and Signage in the amount of $175,000 agreed to

On Rampart House

Rampart House in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

On Archaeology

On Yukon Archaeology

Yukon Archaeology in the amount of $180,000 agreed to

On Palaeontology

Palaeontology in the amount of $123,000 agreed to

On Research

On Heritage Studies

Heritage Studies in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

Heritage in the amount of $2,043,000 agreed to

On Industry Services

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate?

On Industry and Regional Services

On Industry Research and Strategic Planning

Industry Research and Strategic Planning in the amount of $230,000 agreed to

On Product and Resource Assessment

Product and Resource Assessment in the amount of $45,000 agreed to

On Tourism Industry Resource Centre

Tourism Industry Resource Centre in the amount of $15,000 agreed to

Industry Services in the amount of $290,000 agreed

On Marketing

Deputy Deputy Chair: On marketing, is there any general debate?

On Visitor Reception Centres

On Multi-media Equipment

Multi-media Equipment in the amount of $56,000 agreed to

On VRC Capital Maintenance

VRC Capital Maintenance in the amount of $84,000 agreed to

On Travel Equipment, Displays and Productions

On Purchase and Maintenance of Displays

Purchase and Maintenance of Displays in the amount of $15,000 agreed to

On Production, Distribution and Versioning of Vignettes

Production, Distribution and Versioning of Vignettes in the amount of $30,000 agreed to

On Production, Distribution and Versioning of Films and Audio-Visual Shows

Production, Distribution and Versioning of Films and Audio-Visual Shows in the amount of $40,000 agreed to

Marketing in the amount of $225,000 agreed to

On Arts

On Visual Arts

On Visual Arts Acquisition

Visual Arts Acquisition in the amount of $8,000 agreed to

On Arts Acquisition Endowment Fund

Arts Acquisition Endowment Fund in the amount of one dollar agreed to

On Native Art Acquisition

Native Art Acquisition in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

On Facility Development

On Arts Centre Capital Maintenance

Arts Centre Capital Maintenance in the amount of $50,000 agreed to

Arts in the amount of $108,000 agreed to

Deputy Deputy Chair: Are there any questions on recoveries?

Capital Expenditures for the Department of Tourism in the amount of $2,676,000 agreed to

Department of Tourism agreed to

Deputy Deputy Chair: Do members wish to take a brief recess?

Some Hon. Members: No.

Chair: Okay, we will move on to the Women's Directorate.

Women's Directorate

Deputy Deputy Chair: Is there any general debate?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The 1997-98 capital budget of $4,000 and the operation and maintenance budget of $409,000 for the Women's Directorate represent a total of $413,000 to support the Yukon government's commitment to the economic, legal and social equality of women.

The directorate's capital budget of $4,000 is to ensure all computer equipment in the directorate is adapted to meet the demands of year 2000. It will also provide space for the human resource information system and inter-line library service.

The O&M expenditures of the Women's Directorate fall under one program heading, policy and program development. The directorate's priority work is to enhance its role as a policy office within government and to support the Yukon government's commitment to the economic, legal and social equality of women by integrating gender considerations into government policy, legislation and program development.

Over the past year and a half, the directorate's policy work has included violence prevention, training, child support and maintenance enforcement, anti-poverty measures and issues involving Yukon youth.

The directorate will continue to work with Health and Social Services, Education and Justice on policy issues, such as the regulations to implement the Family Violence Prevention Act, changes to the Family Support Act, midwifery legislation, the anti-poverty and youth strategies, as well as providing gender analysis to departments on Cabinet submissions.

The allotments under policy and program development are as follows: personnel, $259,000 reflects four full-year equivalent positions - director, office administrator, policy analyst and communications coordinator position; Other, $120,000 covers program and project funding, the administration of the Yukon Advisory Council on Women's Issues and departmental administrative costs, including communications, advertising, office supplies and travel; transfer payments of $30,000 are for contributions and grant funding. Of this, a contribution of $20,000 will again be provided to the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre to help it carry out its valuable services to Yukon women.

The directorate continues to strengthen its links with women's groups in the community by providing funding for a variety of programs targeting women in need. An eight-week anger management program for women, "Exploring Your Anger", began in March 1998, and is delivered by the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre and funded by the Women's Directorate.

The response has been excellent, and there is a waiting list for a fall series of sessions.

Another project being funded here is a statistical profile of Yukon women, which the directorate is producing in conjunction with the Northern Research Institute and the Yukon Bureau of Statistics for release in the winter of 1998-99. This, and the economic gender-equality indicators will provide useful information to policymakers.

The issue of violence against women in the territory continues to be of major concern to many people in the Yukon; $43,000 has been allocated in the area of violence prevention.

The Women's Directorate is an active member of the Fostering Healthy Communities Interdepartmental Committee, which ensures that government departments take a coordinated approach to creating healthier and less violent Yukon communities. The directorate will support the Department of Justice in ensuring a smooth implementation and ongoing public awareness about the Family Violence Prevention Act.

The directorate continues to implement the government's public awareness strategy to end violence against women and children through radio spots, TV public service announcements, workshops and print ads.

Through a contribution agreement with the Directorate, Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre now takes the lead role in coordinating activities and events for Sexual Assault Prevention Month, Woman Abuse Prevention Month, and the December 6 commemoration. All of these special events are coordinated through an interagency steering committee. The directorate is active on the committee and sponsors a speakers roster for Sexual Assault Prevention Month and Woman Abuse Prevention Month.

The directorate has co-chaired an interagency committee with the Canadian Red Cross to deliver the abuse-prevention services program in Yukon schools. This program, which is run by trained volunteers, is being expanded into rural Yukon schools.

The directorate continues to co-chair a federal/provincial/territorial status of women working group on violence against women.

The directorate continues to focus energies on initiatives and projects that promote equality for young women in our society.

Young Women of Grit is a program for young women who are at risk or who have experienced violence in their lives, which is supported by the directorate, Skookum Jim's Friendship Centre and the Youth Achievement Centre, Health and Social Services. The program offers a week-long wilderness experience that covers topics such as building self-reliance, learning respect for nature, body image, motivation, gender equity and goal setting. Activities include First Nations storytelling and healing circles, hiking and rock climbing. This year, the program will run over the period of a month.

The directorate also heads up a steering committee of representatives from the Department of Education, Yukon Teachers Association, school council members, Yukon College women's studies program, Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre and Les EssentiElles to ensure the gender equity policy for public schools is implemented into all Yukon schools.

Focus group discussions with students, teachers, administrators and parents in Whitehorse and rural Yukon communities are underway to develop a comprehensive action plan and identify pilot projects for Yukon schools. A user-friendly booklet appropriate for teachers, parents and youth on the gender equity in public schools policy has been developed and will be distributed throughout schools and to the general public in the territory.

Thank you.

Mr. Phillips: Mr. Chair, I have very few questions in general debate, but I do want to, first of all, thank the department for their briefing that they gave us when we attended a few weeks ago and also thank the department and the four individuals who work there and the many others - whom the department seems to be able to second from time to time from other departments - for their very hard work on behalf of Yukon women. I know they are a very dedicated bunch and they work very, very hard and sometimes you'd think there's 20 to 30 people working in that office with the type of work that they put out. They really do a great job.

I also want to compliment the Women's Directorate for their new page on the Internet. I've had a chance to go through and look at some of the things on the Internet and it's very interesting to pull up issues that are current and look at the issues the Women's Directorate is dealing with.

I would give the minister some advice, though. The minister has talked about education programs. I think there is one education program that is needed. I know the minister, when she was in opposition, wanted us as a government to make the Women's Directorate a higher priority, and I didn't realize that it was the minister's plan to put them on the fourth floor of a building in obscurity.

Although the view is beautiful from up there, I am hearing some complaints that some people are having difficulty finding the office and maybe the department should make a more concerted effort to inform people about exactly where they are. It's a little difficult to find people in that building in the first place and now that they've moved - their storefront location in the YTG building was a little more accessible and I think some people whom I'm running into are asking me where the office is and how to find it.

I know they did a bit of a campaign in the beginning to let people know where they are, but it might be something that, for the first year or so, might have to be kind of ongoing and, when they do various programs or announcements, they should remind people of exactly where their office is.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'm prepared to go line by line.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Chair, I have a few questions in this department. The critic from the official opposition did talk about some of these issues, and I must say that I did appreciate the briefing that the department gave earlier this month, but I, too, have some questions about the change in location.

I never did get an answer from the minister as to whether there have been any statistics gathered about the numbers that may be down because the location has changed from a very visible, very, very accessible location close to the heart of this government up to a location that is little known - and there is no reason for anybody to go there.

What I'm wondering from the minister is what sort of figures does she have on, say, the use of the library at the old location this time last year and the use of the library this month?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I'm always pleased when the opposition parties acknowledge the hard work that is done by public servants. I'm glad that they have brought that praise forward when the officials from the Women's Directorate are working in the House with us.

I'm also able to respond to the member's question in relation to library use. As members know, the Women's Directorate moved in January 1998 and held an open house to announce the new location. There were about 120 people who came to the open house and advertisements are placed on a fairly regular basis to ensure that Yukon women are aware of the new location.

The library use has remained the same. Four hundred and eighty-six items were borrowed from the Women's Directorate resource library in 1997, at an average of 40.5 items per month since January. We are now into May. The number of items that have been borrowed have also averaged 40.5 per month.

The department has also drafted a communications strategy for library outreach and is a member of inter-library services. With the library listing available on inter-library services and coming online on the Internet some time this year, we anticipate that the use of the library will remain constant.

Mrs. Edelman: Is the minister saying that we're counting every hit on the Internet as use of the library?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: No, that's not what I said. I said that the library listing will come online on the Internet. The numbers I gave the member were the numbers of library items that have been borrowed.

The official opposition critic indicated that he had visited the website that was set up fairly recently. The website has been visited over 800 times since its inception in 1997.

Mrs. Edelman: One of the things that has come up over and over and over again, and particularly after the last article in the paper, was that there is a budget over $400,000, and people are not aware and don't understand what the Women's Directorate does with that type of money. What does the department do as far as educating the public about what they do and being very specific about how that money is being spent?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, perhaps the member missed the remarks that I made in my opening statement. The priorities of the Women's Directorate are to provide gender-based policy analysis to government and to inform government decision making to ensure that women's equality considerations are taken into account.

The directorate staff have worked on a number of policy issues, including Yukon local hire, the Yukon training strategy, the state of the environment, midwifery, administration of the new federal child support guidelines, social policy reform and renewal, and ensuring that gender equity is a principle in the social policy reform.

They've also worked on Canada Pension Plan negotiations, economic gender-equality indicators, public participation and consultation guidelines, gender-inclusive language, and the guidelines for the community development fund and the youth investment fund.

The directorate collaborates with Health and Social Services, Justice, the Public Service Commission, Community and Transportation Services, and Education. It works on the Fostering Healthy Communities Committee internal to government.

They have been active on an employment-equity representative workforce plan within government, the anti-poverty and youth strategy work, the Family Violence Prevention Act, the crime prevention and victim services trust fund, the healthy child initiative, the for-the-sake-of-the-children initiative, and provocation as a defence.

I think that the public is aware of the work that the directorate does, but they also become aware of that work as we see that work informing the decisions that government makes throughout all of its departments.

Mrs. Edelman: I don't doubt for a minute that the Women's Directorate doesn't do good work. My point is that there are people out there - a vast majority of people out there - who still don't understand what the Women's Directorate does for $400,000 a year. Regardless of the fact that the minister knows what they're doing, and we on this side of the House know what the Women's Directorate is doing, that information is not getting out to the public, and they do do good work. I think it's important that we make sure that that information does get out.

What I'm asking the minister again is, what does the Women's Directorate do to make sure that their message about what they do gets out to the public? Now, the Department of Health, everybody knows what the Department of Health does. The Department of Justice: people have an idea what they do in that department. It's not clear to the general public what the Women's Directorate does, and there doesn't seem to be a way of getting that information out that's been successful in the past, and I'm wondering what the department is doing to try to get that information out to the general public.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: At the Women's Directorate open house, as I believe members opposite are aware, there was an information handout available on the work that the Women's Directorate does. They're also working on a brochure for the fall. The majority of their work is focused, as I've repeated here this afternoon, on supporting the policy initiatives within government and ensuring that women's equality concerns are part of the government decision making.

The Women's Directorate also works with a number of community organizations, as I indicated in my opening remarks, on things like Sexual Assault Prevention Month, and initiatives that the public is aware of.

Mrs. Edelman: With all due respect, handing out information to people who are already at the open house is like preaching to the converted. These people already know what the Women's Directorate does. If there is a brochure that's going to be developed for the fall, where is that brochure going to be disseminated in our community, as well as in the outer communities of the Yukon?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, the Women's Directorate will do a mail-out to community groups and organizations that have indicated an interest in the work of the Women's Directorate in the past and that work on similar kinds of issues. It will also be available through the web page which has seen a lot of activity.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Chair, a friendly suggestion is that, once again, mailing out to groups that have already expressed an interest is preaching to the converted again. Putting it on the web page is good for people who have access to the web, but not everybody has a computer, not everybody is on the web, not everybody has that type of money. If the Women's Directorate is interested in spreading the word about what the Women's Directorate does - because there is very little understanding of what they do in this Yukon community - then it might be better to perhaps put brochures in general locations; for example, the library at Haines Junction. There's a very good location there. They've got quite a large pamphlet rack there. It's a very friendly suggestion. I hope the minister takes it that way.

The Family Violence Prevention Act is an interesting act, and certainly our party did table a bill that was almost identical to the one that went through the Legislature, prior to it going through this Legislature. The problem with the Family Violence Prevention Act is that is of no value to Yukoners now because there are no regulations attached to that act. Those regulations have been very slow getting developed, and I understand after it was brought up in the Legislature - that very day - members of that committee got a call from the government asking that they have their first meeting to start developing those regulations. I'm still not clear - and I asked the minister about this during Question Period as well - as to what the time line is going to be for this group developing these regulations. In fact, are they going to be developing the regulations, or are they developing a process to develop the regulations?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: As I indicated to the member in response to questions in Question Period, the Family Violence Prevention Act implementation committee took some time to come together, since we sought nominations broadly, and some organizations took longer than others to respond to the letters inviting them to submit the names of people to participate.

The RCMP, the Yukon Aboriginal Women's Council, the Watson Lake, Carmacks and Dawson City shelters, Kaushee's Place, the Yukon Advisory Council on Women's Issues, the Canadian Bar Association, as well as the Department of Justice and the Women's Directorate, are represented on the committee.

The committee met for the first time on April 30. The implementation plan has an advisory committee so that they can represent and share information with their constituent groups, provide advice to Justice staff and make recommendations to government regarding training programs and regulations that address the implementation of the act.

The consultation with that committee and with the public at large will occur over the next several months, with a view to the proclamation of the act in the fall of 1998. I gave a commitment to that member in debate in this House during the fall session, when we passed the Family Violence Prevention Act, that the act would not be proclaimed until the regulations were developed, and that we would ensure that the public and interested groups had an opportunity to participate before we proceeded. That is now underway. The time frame is to hope for proclamation by the fall of 1998, but we will give the process as much time to complete as it requires.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Chair, I still really haven't got an answer to the question. This group, then, is an advisory committee that's out spreading the word on the regulations. Who is developing the regulations and are these groups going out with a draft set of regulations to advise the groups that they have been asked to communicate with?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The implementation coordinators are a policy analyst in the Department of Justice and the manager of the victim services and family violence prevention unit. Their responsibilities are to coordinate the logistics of the committee. They will develop draft regulations, training programs and consultation documents for review by the Implementation Advisory Committee.

As I just stated, the Implementation Advisory Committee represents their constituent groups, shares information with them, provides advice to the implementation coordinator and makes recommendations to government.

The implementation coordinators will oversee the distribution of the consultation documents and host community meetings to get response from the public relating to implementation and training issues.

After reviewing the results of the consultation process and with the assistance of legislative counsel, they will draft final regulations and develop a training program, again for review by the Implementation Advisory Committee.

Mrs. Edelman: Perhaps I can put this in simpler terms. The draft regulations - is the group working with draft regulations at this point?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, Mr. Chair, perhaps if the member reviews the comments that I've made in Hansard, she'll see what I have just indicated to her. The implementation coordinators are developing draft regulations, training programs and consultation documents for review by the Implementation Advisory Committee. The Implementation Advisory Committee will inform the work of the two implementation coordinators, who are the manager of victim services and family violence prevention unit and a policy analyst in Justice.

Mrs. Edelman: At this point, is the committee working with draft regulations?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: No, as I have stated, the implementation coordinators will develop draft regulations. In developing those, they are working with the Implementation Advisory Committee.

Mrs. Edelman: At what point can we expect that those draft regulations will be developed and be used by the committee?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: I've read into the record the implementation activities. I'll try to abbreviate for the member. The implementation coordinators will be developing draft regulations, training programs and consultation documents. Those will be reviewed by the Implementation Advisory Committee.

The Implementation Advisory Committee will provide advice to the coordinators as they develop those regulations. The Implementation Advisory Committee will also have input on the consultation documents.

We will take the consultation documents out to the public and gather information and suggestions from the community. We will develop the regulations after we've heard from the community and from the Implementation Advisory Committee.

We hope to have this done by the fall of 1998. The implementation process is scheduled to occur between now and the fall.

Mrs. Edelman: Let me recap: we have no draft regulations; we have no consultation documents; we have no training schedule; we have no dollars allocated for that training schedule; we have no schedule for consultation in the communities. How is this possibly going to be ready for the fall sitting?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Mr. Chair, we have all of those things. I have just read into the record what the implementation schedule is and how we are proceeding with developing them. That member, during debate on the Family Violence Prevention Act in this Legislature in the fall, requested that we ensure that implementation of this act proceed with the advice of women's shelters, the RCMP, women's groups and First Nations, and we have done that.

We have established an implementation advisory committee with broad representation to share information and to ensure that the consultation documents and the draft regulations meet the needs in the communities. We hope to have a draft consultation document ready within the next month or two. We hope to go forward with communication materials over the summer and the fall, and we will be developing the regulations, based on the advice of the implementation committee and based on the response from the communities.

The potential costs associated with the implementation plan are covered within the Department of Justice budget. The Women's Directorate is also participating, and their participation is helping to cover off the consultation costs.

Mrs. Edelman: Thank you for finally getting a time line.

I have very, very serious reservations about going out and doing consultations with people in the summer in the Yukon. If you really value what people have to say, you don't do consultations in the summer in the Yukon.

I've served at the municipal level twice, and I have found that if you really want to get something through, and you aren't interested in consultation, you do it in the summer. I'm really concerned that this act, which is so important to Yukon women in particular, is going to be swished through with pretend consultation in the summer.

On the issue of legal aid, Karen Ruddy, who is the administrator over at Legal Aid, had an interview with the media in the fall of 1997. Her concern was that there were women going through the system without help. This was an issue of women being intimidated by the process. It's a policy issue in many ways, and I'm wondering if the Women's Directorate is looking at that issue?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: The intention of having the Canadian Bar Association, for example, as well as the transition homes, the RCMP and government representatives, on the Implementation Advisory Committee is to simplify the process. The Women's Directorate is regularly working with the Department of Justice on issues such as ensuring that women have access to needed support and assistance.

Mrs. Edelman: Mr. Chair, I guess we don't really have an answer to the question again.

The question was that there are women who are trying to go through the legal process, the justice process trying to get custody of their children, for example. Many of these women are intimidated through the process and they need help. There is no funding in legal aid to help these women. This is an issue of gender equity. Women are having a difficult time because usually they don't have the money to get themselves a lawyer in these situations, particularly in abusive situations.

Is this an issue that the Women's Directorate is interested in and are they working on ways so that women can find a way to get through the justice system, being less intimidated or at least finding a way for someone to work with them as an advocate through that system? Is this an issue that the Women's Directorate is looking at?

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Yes, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Edelman: How are they doing that? Is this a policy paper that they're writing or are they looking at some programming? I wonder if the minister could elaborate.

Hon. Ms. Moorcroft: Well, the member's question encompasses a broad range of interests. It includes the child support guidelines; it includes maintenance enforcement legislation; it includes potential amendments to the Family Property and Support Act. The Women's Directorate works with the Department of Justice in all of those areas. For example, we will continue with an information campaign to raise awareness about the federal child support guidelines. The directorate is working with the Department of Justice on potential amendments to the maintenance enforcement program.

The member was also inquiring specifically about the maintenance variance applications for legal aid coverage. As the member knows from this debate in the Department of Justice and from questions in Question Period, the Legal Services Society has changed the legal aid coverage, both because of cost considerations and because of quality of service.

I have asked the board to bring forward recommendations on how we may be able to improve legal aid coverage without significant additional costs.

The Women's Directorate is also looking, through their interdepartmental work on the fostering healthy communities initiatives, on other ways of dealing with the problems.

I've also received a letter from the Canadian Bar Association, inviting me to participate on a discussion paper they put out promoting a pro bono culture in the Canadian legal profession, and I look forward to discu