Whitehorse, Yukon

Speaker:      I will now call the House to order.

We will proceed at this time with prayers.

Prayers

DAILY ROUTINE

Speaker:      We will proceed at this time with the Order Paper.

Tributes.

Introduction of visitors.

Are there any returns or documents for tabling?

Are there any reports of committees?

Are there any petitions?

Are there any bills to be introduced?

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      I move that Bill No. 38, entitled An Act to Amend the Public Utilities Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Speaker:      It has been moved by the Acting Minister of Justice that Bill No. 38, entitled An Act to Amend the Public Utilities Act, be now introduced and read a first time.

Motion for introduction and first reading of Bill No. 38 agreed to

Speaker:      Are there any further bills to be introduced?

Are there any notices of motion?

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr. McLachlan: Mr. Speaker, I give notice of the following motion:

THAT it is the opinion of this House that:

(1) it is regrettable that the previous NDP government was inactive in securing a natural gas pipeline;

(2) Premier Pat Duncan should be applauded for her tireless efforts in showcasing the Yukon as an economical and practical venue for such a pipeline;

(3) staged construction of two pipelines offers the greatest economic benefit for northern Canada; and

(4) the proposed "Over the Top" pipeline route offers little in the way of economic benefit for the Yukon; and

THAT this House recognizes that the Member for Kluane has referred to the project as a "black hole"; and

THAT this House urges all members of the Legislature to voice their unconditional support for the Alaska Highway Natural Gas Pipeline.

Mr. Jenkins:      I give notice of the following motion:

THAT it is the opinion of this House that

(a) the federal Liberal Government had the responsibility to ensure that the Dawson City Airport was brought up to proper standards prior to its transfer to the Yukon Government; and

(b) the $4 million being provided by the federal Liberal Government under the Airport Capital Assistance Program is totally inadequate to meet the requirement to have a fully modern airport serving the Klondike region; and

THAT this House urges the federal Liberal Government to meet its obligation by providing an immediate transfer of $8 million to pave the runway and any further necessary funding to fully upgrade the Dawson City Airport.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Speaker:      Are there any further notices of motion?

Are there any statements by ministers?

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      I rise today to advise the House of a significant milestone in the history of the Yukon government Dawson City Airport.

This government has a stated policy of working cooperatively with other governments. The results of pursuing a policy of cooperative governance can often be intangible, but it can also yield very tangible results. To that end, Mr. Speaker, we have been working hard with the federal Minister of Transport, Mr. David Collenette. I am therefore pleased to inform this House that the federal Minister of Transport has approved a grant of almost $4 million from the federal airports capital assistance program to enable us to proceed with a major reconstruction project at the Dawson City Airport this summer.

Yukon Member of Parliament, Larry Bagnell, made the announcement this past Saturday in Dawson City on behalf of Minister Collenette. The hon. Pam Buckway, Minister of Community and Transportation Services, was also in Dawson and, along with Acting Mayor Aedes Scheer, welcomed the MP, Transport Canada officials and many Yukoners to the Dawson Airport for the announcement.

On behalf of the government, I would like to publicly express my appreciation to the Government of Canada and Minister Collenette for their generous support toward aviation safety and airport infrastructure improvements at this Yukon airport.

The aviation industry and the citizens of Dawson have worked with the Department of Community and Transportation Services to prepare and adopt a plan that will guide the development of the airport. This funding will provide a good start on infrastructure improvements outlined in the 20-year plan.

Mr. Speaker, this will be a significant construction project this summer in the Dawson area. The work will include reconstruction of the existing runway, taxiway and apron areas, construction of a new taxiway, expansion of the apron area, installation of a new windsock tower and replacement of the runway approach lighting systems with newer technology.

Work is expected to commence in July and will be largely completed this fall. The project will employ 12 to 17 workers and provide about 200 person weeks of employment.

Mr. Speaker, the Dawson Airport upgrade is another excellent example of how our government is continuing to meet its priority commitments to Yukon people by creating new jobs and helping to rebuild the Yukon economy. It also serves to uphold our commitment to improve infrastructure in rural areas for the benefit of both residents and visitors alike.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the many Yukoners who have shown continued interest in the Dawson City Airport over the years, and particularly those who participated in the airport planning process. This government thanks and expresses appreciation again to Minister Dave Collenette for his approval of the $3.96-million grant from the airports capital assistance program.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. McRobb:      It's rather interesting to respond to this so-called ministerial statement today, Mr. Speaker, and I say that because, as we all know in this Legislature, a ministerial statement is supposed to be a short, factual statement on government policy. Now, looking through this ministerial statement from today, I'm really hard-pressed to find any policy statement there at all, Mr. Speaker. Instead, this is really a tribute to the federal Minister of Transportation for coughing up $4 million for the Dawson City Airport. Where is the policy of this Yukon government? And I would submit that, once again, this is an abuse of the rules of this Legislature for self-gain and back-patting by this Liberal government.

Now, Mr. Speaker, there's another issue about this statement. What the minister just read was different than what was provided to us earlier today. In the copy earlier today, they took a shot at me for a comment I made last week.

This is similar to the MLA for Faro standing up and bootlegging in his motion, something to the effect that I was opposed to the pipeline. We all know that that is bogus, Mr. Speaker. We on this side are in support of the pipeline; however, it is incumbent upon us to raise some issues of importance to Yukoners to see how this Liberal government will react. Now, we all know that this government doesn't like to be held accountable, and those who do hold it accountable had better be prepared to be defending themselves from personal attacks, because we see it day after day. It's commonplace.

Now, aside from those issues, this ministerial statement is more of a love letter, a bread-and-butter thank-you note to the federal minister. Why don't we just wrap it up in a number 10 envelope, Mr. Speaker, and send it to him? While that's in the mail, we might remember that it was the previous territorial government that spent millions of dollars on the Whitehorse Airport. It didn't wait around for a federal handout, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the acting minister why there is no money - absolutely nothing - for the airport in Old Crow. Has this minister taken any action to make sure that the people in Old Crow are not left aside by this government?

Now, Mr. Speaker, we know that for the MP to attend this event, his absence was required in Parliament. We all know what happened there on Thursday. The Liberals failed to hold a quorum, and business was shut down for the day. I think this speaks to not only our Liberal MP, but to our Liberal members. They all like to cut ribbons and eat cake, rather than take their responsibilities in the legislatures to the full level they should.

It's interesting, Mr. Speaker, to finally see an example where the federal government has coughed up some money for the territory in the way of capital projects - finally. It's interesting that, after visits from the Prime Minister, the Finance minister and Energy minister, there was no money given to the Yukon. Here's a situation where the minister doesn't come, but he does send a suitcase full of money. That's great, but I would suggest to the Liberals across the way to invite the suitcase full of money first, before the ministers, in order that the Yukon can benefit more than from having fundraising opportunities and photo opportunities.

Now, there are plenty of other programs in demand of federal money. In December, we saw where the Northwest Territories was getting millions of dollars for bridge enhancements. Nunavut has got its irons in the fire for federal money. What about when the federal government traded the cleanup of our military sites in the territory - the abandoned military sites - for a bunch of rusting tanks. Where are the Liberals on that issue?

Speaker:      Order please. The member has 30 seconds to conclude.

Mr. McRobb:      Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What about the mine site cleanups? There is the Faro mine, the Clinton Creek mine, BYG mine, Keno Hill mine - there are all kinds of situations where this territory needs to approach the federal government, so I would suggest that finally we have an on-the-ground example. Let's see more.

Mr. Jenkins:      I rise in response to this so-called ministerial statement that is really just a news release made by this novice, colonial Yukon Liberal government on behalf of the federal Liberal government.

The $4-million upgrade to install new lights, windsocks and aprons is better late than never, but it is totally inadequate to bring the Dawson City Airport up to truly appropriate standards.

Mr. Speaker, the experience that the Yukon government has had with taking over the Dawson City Airport has not been a good one. The airport should have been fully upgraded prior to it being transferred, not just slotted into a 20-year plan that may or may not occur. Just how many of these 20-year plans are we going to uncover in the next little while?

Now, Mr. Speaker, it has been previously indicated that a further $8 million is required to pave the airport. Where is the $8 million and when can we expect this announcement? The federal government pawned off the Dawson Airport to the Yukon government and then enforced the rules to render the airport in non-compliance with its operating certificate. Had this money not been announced at this juncture, the Dawson City Airport would effectively have been closed. The Dawson City Airport would have lost its operating certificate and would not have been able to receive scheduled airline service and would no longer have been a point of entry into Canada.

That's the reality of the situation, Mr. Speaker. Now, this must be the Liberal way of undertaking devolution. There's a lesson to be learned here, and this Liberal government should learn it in relationship to the overall devolution of federal responsibility, and that lesson is let the buyer beware. The federal Liberals cannot be trusted as the Dawson City Airport has shown. You only have to witness the situation in Whitehorse, Old Crow and Dawson. All of these airports should have been fully upgraded and expanded prior to transfer, when the Yukon government still had some leverage. That didn't happen.

Now, Mr. Speaker, Yukoners are left with an inferior series of airports while the federal government is off the hook. The $4-million upgrade that the minister so proudly announced today will only just bring the airport to minimum compliance and cannot disguise the fact that the Yukon government has inherited a pig in a poke in the form of the Dawson City Airport.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Mr. Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to introduce to the House the Mayor of Dawson, Mr. Glen Everitt, sitting in the gallery.

Applause

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      I'm sure he'd be very pleased to hear the comments and criticisms from the member opposite. It seems that ribbon cutting and cake cutting are a continual theme of the members opposite, Mr. Speaker, when it's something that we fully acknowledge because most of our projects in the territory are conducted by the public at large, and we're acknowledging the good work that they do, as well as the volunteers. And we extend the government's appreciation to those people. So, they can interpret it any way they want.

It is amazing that the members opposite continually - it just seems like there's nothing that is appropriate that comes from this side of the House, Mr. Speaker.

One of the commitments that we made was that we would build infrastructure in the territory, and here's a prime example of that happening. But, no, we're criticized for that.

We're putting people and Yukoners back to work, Mr. Speaker, and they criticize that. The laments from the members from Watson Lake and Kluane and even Klondike don't acknowledge that fact.

We are being recognized by the ministers from Ottawa. They are coming up here and seeing Yukon first-hand, but when the minister sends money ahead of a potential visit, we're criticized for that because it's only $4 million. Maybe we should close the suitcase and ship it back. It's just amazing that the members opposite, in their ramblings and yearnings, don't seem to find it appropriate to acknowledge a good thing when it does happen. So it is unfortunate - very unfortunate.

We have worked very hard with our federal counterparts to expedite this project, and I am very pleased to say that this effort is bearing fruit in the form of 10 percent of the total federal budget this year in the federal airports capital assistance program. And we give credit to all parties who do participate, unlike the members opposite who can't seem to look past the end of their noses on things. We're getting off the ground, and we are pleased that this Liberal government could play a role in it.

QUESTION PERIOD

Ms. Netro:      Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Renewable Resources. It was interesting to note that the Premier's speech to the Northern Oil and Gas Symposium in Calgary last month made no reference at all to this government's position on oil and gas development in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Now the Premier is taking her Alaska Highway pipeline message right into President Bush's backyard. Has the minister given the Premier any advice about the importance of telling U.S. oil and gas companies that the Yukon government is opposed to drilling in the wildlife refuge?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      We continually get refreshing suggestions from members opposite, but this one isn't that refreshing, since the Premier and I have continually espoused that we are opposed to that kind of activity in ANWR - totally opposed to it - as has the federal government expressed that directly to the President of the United States.

I am sure that during the Premier's visit to the United States this time around she will continue to express our opposition to that activity over that way.

Ms. Netro:      So much for the Liberal government's claim that it is raising this important issue at every opportunity. What they say and what they do are two different things. The Premier also ignored these concerns in her opening remarks at the recent climate change conference here.

My supplementary question is about climate change, Mr. Speaker. Last week, we heard the shocking news that President Bush is pulling the U.S. out of the Kyoto protocol on greenhouse gas emissions. What action has this minister taken to express Yukon's concern about this to the federal Environment and Energy ministers?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      With respect to climate change, this government has continually supported the arguments presented with respect to climate change, as has the federal government. We will continue to do that, Mr. Speaker, regardless of what position the United States takes.

Ms. Netro:      The federal Environment minister's position on President Bush's decision has been lukewarm at best. Many people consider Canada to be partially responsible for the failure of the climate change summit in Amsterdam last year, which this minister attended. There are serious concerns that Canada may simply fall in line behind the Americas on this issue. This could be very detrimental to northern Canada's interests.

Will the minister undertake to tell the federal Environment minister, in no uncertain terms, that abandoning our Kyoto commitments would not be accepted in the Yukon?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Well, the Member for Vuntut Gwitchin managed to get three different questions in on three different topics. That is okay, I suppose, because we are continuing to aggressively lobby the American government with respect to our concerns and issues regarding the Porcupine caribou herd, for one.

The issues concerning climate change are uppermost. As a matter of fact, the northern territories are taking the lead in bringing to the attention, not only of Canada, but of the world at large, that effects and impacts of climate change are occurring here now. Yukon is even taking a greater lead in getting that point and message across to our federal counterparts. At every opportunity we do express our concern.

I might even have suggestions for the member opposite that maybe they could convince their friends in organized labour to oppose drilling in ANWR. Maybe that is how we could get support from organized labour.

Question re:  Pipeline, choice of routes

Mr. Fentie:      I have a question this afternoon for the Acting Minister of Economic Development. Last week, President Bush was very clear that he is prepared to buy oil and gas from anybody to make sure that the U.S. economic engine continues to run smoothly. He specifically mentioned the Northwest Territories, and that sounded very much like an endorsement for a Mackenzie Valley pipeline. And also, the Canadian federal government seems to be very coy on which project it favours. Can the minister tell us what this government intends to do to get the Yukon economy back on the rails, should a Mackenzie line be built before the Alaska Highway pipeline?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Mr. Speaker, again the members opposite are flip-flopping. They don't know what they want to come first or they're not quite sure which way this government is going. I do believe that the minister has continually indicated to the House, as she is doing as we speak, that she is promoting the Yukon-Alaska Highway pipeline route. I wouldn't put too much credibility on what Mr. Bush says, because he doesn't have a whole lot of sense of what is where in Canada.

Mr. Fentie:      Mr. Speaker, I have never heard such drivel. This government across the floor simply doesn't get it. We are competing. We are competing for billions of dollars from the industry to build the biggest pipeline project ever. If the Mackenzie line is built before the Alaska Highway line, northern Yukon oil and gas could well be isolated and not be able to reach a market through the Yukon. In fact, it may have to go into the Northwest Territories.

What consultations does this government have planned with the First Nations involved, with stakeholder groups, in the event that oil and gas from Eagle Plains and the Peel Basin deposits need to be shipped to Inuvik or Arctic Red River?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Mr. Speaker, first of all, the Premier isn't doing enough, and then she's doing too much. She's never around. Again, it's a continual lack of understanding by the members opposite of the efforts that our Premier is making when she leaves and goes to Vancouver or Calgary or Houston or Ottawa. She is getting the point across that we see the preferred route for the Alaska Highway pipeline being down the Alaska Highway as opposed to the Mackenzie Valley at this time. We are getting ready for that in a number of areas, as well. We are getting our programs for training up and running, recognizing that, even though she has also indicated to the House that we don't have a project yet. We are eagerly looking forward to it being announced as the producers had indicated, probably toward the end of the year. We want to be ready for it, so we are moving in that area, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Fentie:      Well, I would caution the acting minister not to take the Premier's tack and get overly antagonistic about Question Period.

Mr. Speaker, the facts are plain: the industry itself is actively pursuing a feasibility study on both projects. There is a situation here where, should a Mackenzie Valley line be built first, a downward pressure would result on Yukon resources. We have already witnessed the paltry sum that the Yukon has received in terms of land sales in north Yukon while a billion dollars is being spent this year in the Northwest Territories.

My question to the acting minister is this: what is this government doing to prepare for the eventuality that the Alaska Highway pipeline may become a second project and we then will face over five years or longer before we realize any benefit from that sector? What is this government doing today to address that fact?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Mr. Speaker, it's beyond me that the members opposite don't recognize the efforts that are continually being worked on by my colleague, the Member for Riverside, in his travels, in the Premier's travels and in any travels that we have also been criticized for in promoting economic development in the territory. And one of the primary economic development indicators that we're trying to move on is the Alaska Highway gas pipeline.

So that's exactly what the Premier has been doing all this time - moving forward, indicating that this is the best route to start the flow of Arctic gas southward. She is not opposed to the Mackenzie Valley pipeline, as the members opposite have just indicated, but we believe that this is the pipeline that should go first. So that's exactly what we're doing, Mr. Speaker, at every opportunity available.

Question re:  Protected areas secretariat

Mr. Jenkins:      I have a question today for the Minister of Renewable Resources.

Back on February 8 of this year, seven resource and economic development groups walked out on a Yukon Protected Areas Strategy Public Advisory Committee meeting because the economic interests were not being given proper consideration in the creation of the protected areas. Now, on March 13 of this year, in an address to the Whitehorse Chamber of Commerce, the Premier and the minister invited the seven groups to return to the table. The resource users coalition has put forward a five-point plan that it would like addressed. I would like to canvass the minister's response to this plan.

Will the minister advise the House that the minister is prepared to give independent status to the secretariat supporting the Yukon protected areas strategy, so that it isn't tied to either the Department of Renewable Resources or the Department of Economic Development? Will the minister be doing that?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Again, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Klondike is not respecting the process of consultation, which is exactly why we're having the YPAS Public Advisory Committee get together to discuss these issues.

I want to make it perfectly clear that, at our meeting with the group of seven, we had indicated that it is in that forum that they put forward their five-point proposal and that we were not, as the official opposition had done when in government, creating sweetheart, backroom deals. We will be open and accountable in our exercises. The Premier made that very, very clear to those members in the Cabinet room who, even if they did present their five points, it was the best forum in which to do that and that we would not be committing this government to those five points until it was reviewed by the YPAS Public Advisory Committee.

Mr. Jenkins:      Well, let's see if we can get the minister to agree to anything, other than just attack, attack, attack, Mr. Speaker. This same group is calling for full-scale assessment of the economic impacts of protecting a particular area in addition to the full-scale environmental assessments that are currently being done, and it wants to see a cap established on the total amount of area that can be protected under this strategy. Will the minister agree to the comprehensive economic assessment, as well as agree to the cap? And what will that cap be? Is it going to be 30 percent, 40 percent, or even higher, of the Yukon's land mass? What is the cap?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Again, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Klondike has continually grilled the Premier on the same point. I believe that the Premier has indicated that, again, respecting the consultative process, we will leave that suggestion and recommendation up to the public advisory committee. And the recommendations that are initiated from the next set of meetings will come directly to Cabinet for review, and a decision will be reached on them. So, again, the Member for Klondike is fishing. And he is, as usual, fishing up the wrong creek because we are respecting consultative process, and that is what we are going to do.

Mr. Jenkins:      Well, there have to be guidelines established by the government as to what the total land mass recognized under the Yukon protected areas strategy will be. That's a given. That's a political decision. When is it going to be made? He can't keep passing the buck on that.

The two remaining points concern the need to guarantee access to land that may be blocked through the creation of a protected area and that no more protected areas be created until the settlement of land claims, because more parks will be created under land claims. Will the minister agree to these last two points? Will the minister agree to anything?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Well, Mr. Speaker, in a previous motion put forward to this House by the Member for Klondike, he read off the five points that were prepared by somebody else for him to read into the motion. Now he is again reading from the five conditions that were presented to the Premier and me in the Cabinet room by the group of seven. We were very clear - very, very clear - and emphatic that those points go to the public advisory group for inclusion in any recommendations that come forward directly from the public advisory group to Cabinet to review and make decisions on. I don't know much more clear I could make that to the member opposite.

Question re:   Government spending

Mr. Fairclough:      I have a question for the Acting Premier.

Mr. Speaker, in the first nine months the Premier and her colleagues blew their travel budget by more than $60,000 and here we are, only the second day of the new fiscal year, and the Cabinet high-flyers are already at it again.

Will the Acting Premier table a full breakdown of travel costs for Cabinet, government caucus and the political staff to the end of the fiscal year 2000-01, including all departmental and other sources of funding? Will he table that information by tomorrow?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Mr. Speaker, I believe the Premier has already committed to that action and she will be providing that information at a later time.

Mr. Fairclough:      Mr. Speaker, that information is incorrect. The Premier did not table all of those breakdowns to me, and I'm asking a very simple question to the Acting Premier.

Now, Mr. Speaker, this government loves to spend money on itself. We know that it took advantage of the spring break to install new carpets in the Cabinet areas, in spite of the fact they have already been making efforts to reduce the traffic by keeping people they don't like out of the area.

My first supplementary is to the Minister of Government Services. Will the minister tell the House how much this carpeting and the new trappings for the members' lounge cost Yukon taxpayers?

Hon. Mr. Jim: Mr. Speaker, we have the numbers. I don't have the numbers with me right at the moment, but I can get the numbers to him before the end of this sitting here.

Mr. Fairclough:      Mr. Speaker, these are very simple questions, and I appreciate getting that information.

I have a related question for the same minister. Recently, the area for French translators in the Executive Council Office was basically a storage room for new furniture and office equipment. Now this government has obviously gone on a year-end shopping spree to reduce the lapses and keep the accumulated surplus from being too big.

Will the minister table for the House a complete list of all furniture, office equipment and computer systems ordered by the department, Crown corporations and agencies between February 15, 2001 and the end of this past fiscal year? Will he do that?

Hon. Mr. Jim: Mr. Speaker, there are many departments that purchase furniture and office equipment. Would the member opposite be so specific as to whether it would be the Executive Council Office that he's looking at, or is it all departments that he's looking at?

Some Hon. Member:      (Inaudible)

Hon. Mr. Jim: All departments. It would take some time in gathering that information. I think we can probably give you a general overview of that.

Question re:  Lumber, softwood agreement with U.S.

Mr. Fentie:      Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Minister of Economic Development. On Saturday, the Canada/U.S. softwood agreement reached an end. My question is this: what representations has this government made to the federal Government of Canada with regard to the very difficult negotiations ahead between the two countries when it comes to the export of wood products into the United States?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      I don't have an answer ready for the member opposite on that specific issue, but I will certainly make every attempt to have an answer ready for him tomorrow.

Mr. Fentie:      Well, I think that maybe I could ask the minister the same question in this manner: the Yukon advantage, when it comes to the export of lumber from this territory into the United States, is that we are exempt. We have exemption status because we are basically a non-producer in the eyes of the Americans. Will this minister ensure and make every effort at the table with the federal government that that representation will be brought forward, and that the Yukon can maintain its exemption when it comes to any further softwood agreements with the United States?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Mr. Speaker, without committing the Minister of Economic Development, I will certainly take forward the suggestion that was just made by the member opposite. If, in fact, that is true, I am sure the Minister of Economic Development will again forward that notion on exemptions.

Mr. Fentie:      Well, you see, Mr. Speaker, we don't have to be antagonistic in Question Period. We can be quite productive.

I have a follow-up, final supplementary. Will the minister also commit and ensure at the table that the Yukon maintains enough latitude that we can reach our own arrangement with what will probably be, when it comes to the development of a forest industry in the territory, our most beneficial marketplace - the State of Alaska? Will the minister ensure that the Yukon can have the latitude, along with the State of Alaska, to negotiate some arrangement in trade regarding manufactured wood products being exported from the Yukon into the State of Alaska?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      The Member for Watson Lake is absolutely right. And it might even be in the tone of the question or the substance of the question that we are readily willing and able to respond in a like fashion. So I would hope that his colleagues take example from the type of question that he has asked and that we would be more than willing to clearly provide the best answers that we can.

With respect to the question that he did ask, though, again, I will confer with the Department of Economic Development and take his suggestion under advisement because it was a positive, constructive suggestion, Mr. Speaker.

Question re:  Faro mine site, environmental cleanup

Mr. Fairclough:      I have a question again for the Acting Premier. This morning we heard that assets of the Faro mine site will be sold off to repay its debts. I suppose this means that the mine at Faro, for all practical purposes, is a thing of the past and nearing its end. What isn't in the past is the environmental work that still lies ahead. What steps has this government taken to ensure that the federal government lives up to its obligations to remediate the Faro mine site?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      The ink on the pages of the plan of arrangement, as structured by the judge, is still wet. It is still going to take some time to assess the judgement. But I do believe that there is recognition in there about the treatment facilities that DIAND can bring - and secure and improve the water treatment facilities, at least. The plan of arrangement is still being looked at, and the department will be assessing exactly what the judge is interpreting in that plan.

Mr. Fairclough:      After devolution, responsibility for mineral resources will be in the hands of the Yukon and the cleanup of the Faro mine site could cost in excess of $100 million.

What is this Liberal government doing to make sure that the federal government will provide enough money, on an ongoing basis, to clean up the mine site that was abandoned during its watch?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      The member opposite, Mr. Speaker, knows well how negotiations are going or have gone between the territorial government and the federal government with respect to devolution. I do believe that, in the very short while, we will be hearing more and more details on that arrangement. In fact, the member already knows that there would be in place an agreement of accountability with respect to the Faro mine site and, in all probability, it would be recognized and accepted by Canada.

Mr. Fairclough:      I'm hoping the Acting Premier can answer the questions. If there is a positive side to the Faro situation, apart from the fact that some Yukon creditors will finally be paid out the money owed to them, it is the fact that the cleanup work could provide some badly needed jobs in Faro.

What is this government doing to make sure that the federal government acts quickly so that the mine reclamation work can get going without any unnecessary delays?

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Well, Mr. Speaker, as I have just indicated, the ink is still wet on the agreement, for heaven's sake, and it's going to take some time to work it out. An initial look at the plan calls for a 32.5 percent payment being made to secured creditors with 67.5 percent payable to Cominco. Cominco is owed about $24.4 million on that project, and about $14 million in secured claims by 42 companies has also been recognized and is proven.

So, Mr. Speaker, the finality of the agreement is still being worked out, still being interpreted in how the payments are going to be applied. There are a substantial number of companies and individuals that were affected by the final shutdown of Faro.

I would just like to point out, as well, Mr. Speaker, that it was believed that the Cantung mine was going to be shut down forever, and as we see, just as the Phoenix rose from the ashes, the Cantung mine is also being looked at to be re-established. Even though there was a sense of finality to the Faro mine - who knows, somewhere down the road, 10, 15, 20 years, maybe it will be started up again as a viable mine.

Speaker:      Order please. Will the minister please conclude his answer.

Hon. Mr. Eftoda:      Yes, I will, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

In 11 years of the last 15, under the NDP, they did nothing to mitigate the possible damages with respect to the Faro mine and its tailings, Mr. Speaker.

Question re:  Electrical rate stabilization fund

Mr. Keenan:      Mr. Speaker, today is April 2. And I'm sure that we realize the significance of that date. It's not one day after April Fool's Day; it's into the second quarter. Consultations are supposed to start from the Yukon Energy Corporation on the rate stabilization fund. So I'd like to know, now that we've passed the deadline that the previous president had outlined for us, when can we expect the consultation to be effective on the rate stabilization fund?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:     Mr. Speaker, as my colleague, the Minister of Economic Development, just said, the ink is just dry on one of the very important issues of the Mayo-Dawson transmission line. We are just moving into this next stage, and to expect to have it all lined up and set, ready to go on day one would be very presumptuous. We take things by doing our homework and making sure we're on the right track. I would say to the member opposite: very shortly.

Mr. Keenan:      Well, Mr. Speaker, that's absolutely appalling. We got a bit of a lecture there on doing homework and how good we're doing at homework and whatnot. Well, Mr. Speaker, school is out. The teacher and students are still sitting in there studying. The exams are over.

The former president of Yukon Energy Corporation said, right in this House last fall, that consultation has to happen within the first quarter. Now we're hearing about dry ink and the transmission line. Mr. Speaker, this is not about transmission lines; it is about the rate stabilization fund and how or if this government is going to be putting forward this program again.

So, I would like to ask this of the minister: is this minister committed to maintaining the rate stabilization fund?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      Thanks again for the question. Mr. Speaker, the rate stabilization fund was established in December 1998 and absorbs rate increases for most consumers, so electricity bills will remain nine percent above their January 1997 levels until March 31, 2002.

The rate stabilization fund resulted from a recommendation of the Cabinet Commission on Energy's final report, which also suggested that the program be reviewed in its third year, with public input.

Mr. Speaker, it did not say that we had to start on day one. It said, "in its third year." We are just beginning that. The member opposite has made it clear that he is expecting something to happen in the next little while. I am just confirming that. Yes, we will be coming in with a plan. The member opposite will hear about it, just as all Yukoners will hear about it, in terms of what procedure we will be taking in assessing this whole issue.

Mr. Keenan:      Well, I do believe that the minister is lost out there in wonderland. He is so confused by all of the homework and reviews that he is going through that he forgetting the very basic issues.

Mr. Speaker, I don't need a lecture. It was my colleague from Kluane who brought that document forth to this Legislature. That is not what I am asking. It was in a presentation by the Yukon Energy Corporation last year that the former president said that we have to go into consultation in the first quarter. I didn't say that we are going to do it on the last day.

I have asked this question now for the second time in the House. When is it going to start? We have passed our deadlines, Mr. Speaker, which is starting to make me wonder if this government is not committed to the consultation that is directed by the president of the Yukon Energy Corporation. Again, will there be a rate stabilization fund after the current program expires in March 2002? We created a program. What is this government going to do, if they are not going to go out to consultation, to protect the consumer from a 40-percent increase in electrical rates? What is this government going to do?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      Once again, the Member for Ross River-Southern Lakes wants a commitment that the last government made to rate stabilization. What we are committed to is to go out and consult with people to find out and to share and interact as to what route we should go. We are not committing ourselves to what the member opposite would like to commit us to. I am sure that if that member were sitting here or standing here, he would be making the same comment.

We said that we are committed to consultation. I don't know how many times that I have to say it. Consultation is the backbone of the Liberal Party. We believe in consulting with Yukoners, not just going off and doing it and then thinking, "Well, this is what people really wanted and we consulted." I don't care how many commissions were held in the past. The important part is looking and reacting to what people want today and also being realistic to people today, not giving people the smoke-and-mirrors message that sometimes has happened in the past.

We are believing in reality, Mr. Speaker, and we will have consultation. It will be with all Yukoners, and it will be within our first quarter, not in the last quarter as the member opposite constantly tries to suggest it will be. It will be in the next while. We have just begun our first quarter. It's very important for us to take our time so we don't rush into things and make improper decisions.

Speaker:      The time for Question Period has now elapsed. We will proceed to Orders of the Day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Ms. Tucker:      Mr. Speaker, I move that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Speaker:      It has been moved by the government House leader that the Speaker do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve into Committee of the Whole.

Motion agreed to

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

Chair:  Good afternoon everyone. I now call Committee of the Whole to order. Do members wish to take a brief recess?

Some Hon. Members:      Agreed.

Chair:  We will take a 15-minute recess.

Recess

Chair:  I will now call Committee of the Whole to order. We're discussing Bill No. 4.

Bill No. 4 - First Appropriation Act, 2001-02 - continued

Chair:  We're just commencing general debate.

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      I'm pleased to rise before the members of this Legislature to introduce the operations and maintenance budget and capital budget for the Department of Health and Social Services for the year 2001-02.

The request for $125,889,000 in this budget represents the highest ever O&M expenditure for this department. This budget is about investing in people. It is about supporting all Yukoners who need these valuable services.

Our commitment to ensure the health and well-being of Yukoners is demonstrated in this budget by the increased investment in the people of the Yukon.

As mentioned in the Finance minister's budget address, the expenditures in the area of Health and Social Services respond to the many commitments that we were elected to fulfill.

In one short year we have made substantial progress on a number of fronts in the budget before you, which builds on that progress and moves our election commitment forward.

If we look at the previous administration's O&M budget, tabled one year ago, we have increased funding by more than $10 million - $10 million by this Liberal government. That is a real commitment. It is a commitment about maintaining quality health care. We are ensuring that the quality of care and programming that Yukoners have come to enjoy will continue. We have increased this year's funding for O&M by approximately $3.5 million over last year's forecasted spending. So, Mr. Chair, I would like to take this time to give a quick snapshot of where some of these increases are taking place.

Mr. Chair, it was this Liberal government's election commitment to maintain stable funding to the Whitehorse General Hospital. We are doing what we said we would do. The Yukon Hospital Corporation will see an increase of just under $1 million to their base O&M funding, as compared to last year's base.

The capital funding for the Yukon Hospital Corporation will increase by 50 percent for this fiscal year. Included in this 50-percent increase is $200,000 from the federal medical equipment fund. Mr. Chair, this $200,000 was the result of this government's successful negotiations with the Prime Minister last year. May I remind the members opposite, when they constantly ask about travel, that's what we brought to the Yukon, Mr. Chair - money to the Yukon. We had to go to these venues in order to ensure that our voice was being heard.

When we go out of the territory on government business, we get results. Obviously, these results help Yukoners. The additional cashflow we have provided to the hospital will help in many areas. It will help ease the increased service delivery pressure that it has been feeling. It will help the hospital deal with the rising cost associated with chemotherapy. It will help meet the need for ongoing equipment repair. It will support equipment replacement and new equipment purchases.

We are preparing for the completion of the continuing care facility. And as well, we are preparing for its anticipated opening in June 2002. $300,000 of O&M is identified in this budget in order to get some of the necessary staff in place for this new facility. On the capital side, $7.9 million is requested to substantially complete this construction project, and $1 million is required for equipment and furnishing purchases.

Again, moving forward on this project and increasing the construction to include the full 96 beds fulfills our election commitment that we made a year ago. We committed to expand the number of nursing beds for the elderly and for others who require long-term care services. We are doing what we said we would do, Mr. Chair.

In the area of recruitment and retention, there have been many questions asked about this in this session, and we know that it is a very serious issue, Mr. Chair. It is serious right across North America.

It is one of the biggest challenges that this government and all governments are facing. We are working with our health care professionals and with our communities to ensure that we are adequately staffed with doctors and nurses to deliver the high quality health care we enjoy in the Yukon, Mr. Chair.

An initial investment has been set aside in this budget for that purpose, and we are continuing our efforts to support new initiatives and new ideas to attract new health care professionals and to help maintain the high quality of professionals who have made the Yukon their home. It may not be enough at this point, Mr. Chair, but it's a beginning and hopefully we can build on it.

During the fiscal year, $50,000 was provided to assist the family physician relocation costs. In this fiscal year, $50,000 will be provided to the Yukon Medical Association for locum travel and accommodation. Also, Mr. Chair, an additional $20,000 will be provided to the Yukon Medical Association to assist with the residency program in the Yukon. As well, $10,000 has been earmarked for the establishment of a bursary to encourage Yukon students to enter medical school.

Mr. Chair, our nurses are also facing challenges. We have allocated $50,000 to be given to the Yukon Registered Nurses Association to establish a nursing education fund, and another $10,000 will be used to establish a nursing advisory council. There has never been a nursing advisory council to the government and we now have in place a nursing advisory council.

This government supports and cares for Yukon families and youth. We were made aware of the previous government's lack of investment in Yukoners when we took office, Mr. Chair. Well, we believe in Yukoners. We believe that people are the Yukon's best resource. We have made an investment in the people of the Yukon.

This budget sees increased funding of $100,000 for foster care. May I remind the members opposite that this had not changed for nine years. We have put an increase of just over $300,000 into youth residential care. This is a very serious problem in our community and communities throughout Canada, particularly with our teens. We have allocated an increase of approximately $100,000 for youth justice. After having had no increases for the last nine years, this government - this new Liberal government of one year - has committed to an increase of $100,000 to help with the increasing costs for the services provided by Kaushee's. As well, in order to provide better staffing in women's shelters, we have given an increase of $62,000 to the Watson Lake Help and Hope shelter. The Dawson shelter has also been given this same amount, $62,000.

Mr. Chair, this Liberal government is following through on yet another one of its election commitments. We campaigned on our commitment to maintain stable funding to the Child Development Centre, and we have done this. We do what we say we are going to do. This budget also reflects staff increases to enhance services of our healthy families program, to enhance services of our foster care program, our child care program, our youth probation services and our residential youth treatment services.

Yukon Family Services will see increases in their base funding. This is $39,000 to respond to needs in the rural communities and modest salary increases.

Recent changes to our social assistance program will largely benefit families with children, single parents, and a greater financial benefit will be realized for all those recipients who have other forms of income from employment, or income from maintenance payments and student loans.

This government recognizes that the support, the agencies and the programming that help parents and their children in Whitehorse and in the rural communities are priorities for Yukoners and, as such, they are priorities for stable and increased spending.

Other areas of increased funding for programming includes the increase to Hospice of $75,000 to support increased demand and expansion of services to rural communities. Teegatha'oh Zheh will get an additional $50,000, and Line of Life will get $10,000 to assist with equipment costs.

We have stated very clearly that one of our top priorities as a government is alcohol and drug addictions, and following on this priority, the budget reflects this for the first time - the creation of an alcohol and drug secretariat as a separate entity. Total funding for the secretariat, in its first year of operation, is estimated at $2.3 million. This represents an increase of over $250,000 from the forecast amount for alcohol and drug services.

I am looking forward to working directly with the secretariat and Yukoners over the next year, as we begin to revamp our programs and services to better respond to this ongoing problem. The impacts affect so many people.

Mr. Chair, the spending priorities of this government in the area of Health and Social Services are clear: we support the people who are on the front line delivering services; we support the agencies and organizations that work at the community level to ensure that the right supports and services are available, and we support the people of the Yukon who access the many programs and services provided by the department and our agency partners.

I must make a few comments, Mr. Chair, on the issue of active living and prevention. I believe that this is where our resource is. If we do not put more dollars and more energy and more effort into prevention, we are always going to be falling behind when it comes to paying for the catch-up. So, Mr. Chair, I would encourage all government members and all employees to ensure that we work on this very important theme for the future, that of active living.

These are just some of the highlights of the department's planned activities and spending priorities over the year. I would be pleased now to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Keenan:      Today I'd like to, I think, start off with thanking the minister for bringing forth the budget as presented. I have a few comments as we go through it over the duration of the next couple of days, and I think that certainly it will take a couple of days - maybe not much more than that. It just depends on how forthright the answers are.

I guess it's not so much that I'm seeking answers, but I'm seeking some clarification and I'm seeking the vision of the minister. I put the minister on notice about that vision, I think, in Question Period about three weeks ago. I did express that I'd like to keep it to a policy-level discussion, if I could. So if the minister would like to let the gentleman to his left go now, I don't think there will be a need for that gentleman for the rest of the afternoon because we're certainly going to take it into a policy discussion and get active in a policy discussion, because I'm really looking to hear -

Baby cries in the gallery

Mr. Keenan:      - beautiful, young voices, refreshing voices in the Legislature. Well, we can't stifle that here, can we, ladies and gentlemen?

Maybe we have a legislator coming someday, I hope so.

But certainly I would like to probe - well maybe probe is not such a good word, but explore might be a better word - with the minister some of the issues of procrastination or vision development, I guess. So, yes, you may let the gentleman to your left go, and he is free for the afternoon. I am sure that he has got all sorts of other things to do. But I don't think that you are going to let him go, so I would also like to express my thanks to the department and all of the folks who work within the department.

I know that the front-line workers within government, I guess, the bureaucrats who sit behind the desks behind those six-by-eight foot walls that are the partitions - their own private space - between them and the next desk, are comparable, I think, to nurses and the doctors. Certainly they are there with a desire for change and for efficiency and to make things better.

So, as I said right from the day that this budget was tabled, I think that there is some good spending authority in it. Again, I would like to congratulate all of the staff and all of the folks who have come together to make this what it is.

Now, just over a year ago, or exactly a year ago, practically everybody in this room, with the exception of one, I believe, was out campaigning and asking if we could be put into this Legislature - it says, "Watch your 'you's" - and we did that. We did that based on what we thought we could do on a personal basis, on a personal level of representing our constituents in here. We did that based on the it's all about the Future campaign document. We had ours, the gentlemen to the left of me had theirs - the Yukon Party - and that is basically what we campaigned on, what we lost the election on, I guess, and what the Liberals won the election on.

Certain issues that are reflective, I guess - or not reflective - in this budget are not set about in any of this documentation.

But before I jump off the deep end and say, "You're full of beans and it's contrary to the fact and you're wrong," and all of those things, I'd like to give the minister his opportunity to explain, because I like the idea of prevention. Sometimes, judging from me, you can't tell, but certainly I have my own means and ways of doing things, and it releases me physically, releases me mentally, and it gives me a role model to play in different ways.

The minister speaks about prevention and working with Community and Transportation Services and the sports minister and the active living program. I have some ideas on those types of issues that I'd like to explain and explore with the minister, to give to the minister if the minister will take them.

I'm also interested in hearing some of the concrete steps that the minister is going to be developing for the 10-year plan. I know that I take the minister at his word that, in the beginning, it's just that. It's a 10-year oral plan, a verbal plan, and as we go through the development of that plan, through brainstorming, through consultations and through reviewing - and all of those other words, I guess - I hope we can come up with some concrete steps and take it away from a motherhood statement of better health for Yukoners - which is always reflected in this type of platform document, I guess you'd call it - and get right into the nuts and bolts. I'm very interested in that. I'm going to take the minister up on his offer to have a little tour of the Cabinet room. The minister, last Wednesday in debate, said that he would like to invite me to his Cabinet room and to look at the chart.

I strongly believe in those visual aids, those reminders. My background comes from many different things that I have done in my life. It wasn't until I was asked by the elders to represent my First Nation at the political level, as a chief - and I did that for, I guess, a decade - that I really got to see how things could and should work and the benefits of planning. Certainly, before, when I did my own personal planning, it was disgusting in some cases, because it was on a paycheque-by-paycheque basis, and then it evolved as you mature. You become more of a planner and start to put benchmarks and goals in your own personal life. That's exactly what I did as Chief of the Teslin Tlingit First Nation.

I am very pleased to say that, today, the process that was developed - and when I say "I", I mean only as the chief political spokesperson at the time, because it was all of those surrounding me and who were affected who had input into it. We created an action plan. As I go back to my First Nation, sit in the boardroom and look at that and see, in the sixth and seventh year, what they're doing, where they're going in policy and what they're taking over - wow. I really do think that it is a better way of doing things. Now, maybe it's a bit too socialist of a way of doing things, because it certainly encompasses all.

I guess, at that level and with that number of people, as compared to 30,000 people at this level, that type of process might not be applicable. But there are good things from that process that we could take and bring to this level here - the territorial and national level that we influence - and we may be able to start to focus more.

I, as a politician and a leader - yes, I am a leader, just as every one of us in this room is a leader - have responsibilities and obligations to bring forth thoughts. Maybe one day, the territorial government, of which we are all a part - maybe not the government, but we have a government in the territory that reflects all of us - will be able to start to focus more outside of election time as to what it is that we really see, want and desire for our communities.

So, we can start to set those goals then, and if they're 10-year goals, 20-year goals or 30-year goals, or whatever those type of goals are, well then, we have something to march forth to. We can say that. We have examples here now of doing those types of issues. There's the three-year capital plan that we, as the government, brought into place.

The government of the day is changing that now, so that we have a capital plan in the fall. This is all for better planning. This is all to make it work better for the people who are affected, and the constituents out there are many-fold. They're from citizens to business people, to NGOs, to all those issues.

I will make the offer to the minister if he'd like the gentlemen to his left to go and do some real work this afternoon, instead of listening to me. He can still do that, because this is where I'm coming from. I want to know about those benchmarks. It has been a year now since I head this, so I'd like for the minister to take me in some detail - it doesn't have to be minute detail - through the process that we're going to go through.

I'll stop right there, if I may, at this point in time, and just let the minister explain that.

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      I appreciate the comments from the Member for Ross River-Southern Lakes. I guess my response - and, again, I'm speaking hopefully on behalf of our caucus in how we see the vision for the future.

I believe that, right across the country, there's a very strong feeling among people - among citizens - to look at, you know, what we've been doing in our history, and how we can change some of those ways of trying to respond.

We probably reacted in historic times by throwing money at things rather than looking at the systemic reasons why things are the way they are. If I want to use one example, like FAS - this is a very obvious one. I mean, we know what causes FAS, and there's no point just saying it all the time. I think we have to have in place social programs that are going to bring about that quality and fairness among people to understand that when they drink they really have a potential of destroying a child for life. I think what we really want to look at - and I think it's not something new from our vision, but it's a vision that many governments have. Even the last government had some of those visions, as to trying to look at what causes the issues and then trying to throw what I could call good programming ideas on how they're going to resolve these.

Home care is an example. You know, it wasn't started by this government; it was started by previous governments. You know, rather than people staying in the hospital, they're better off to stay in their homes. People we know want to stay in their homes for as long as they can; they don't want to stay in institutions or what we call large buildings where many people live. They would rather stay in their own homes. So it is incumbent on us as a government to ensure that we're providing them with the resources to do that.

The healthy families initiative is, again, another approach toward addressing what we as society would expect from our people and how we can help them, because we came to raise families in different ways - some of them very good, some of them that needed improvement. If I were to parent like I was parented, I'm not too sure how my children would have turned out. Fortunately, I had a partner who had a very practical home approach toward raising children, so the two of us were able to hopefully do a job that provided them with the skills to survive and exist in the future.

Not all people have this, so I think that's where this healthy families initiative project can come in, giving parents some very basic ways to respond to the needs of children and how to respond to - well, I guess the bottom line is who is in charge, quite often.

Looking at how we respond to our nursing strategy, the philosophy - and I know I have been criticized by the members opposite of trying to move into another direction here with primary health care. This has been going on for years in our small communities. Teslin has had primary health care since the beginning of nurses in that community. Those nurses are very valued people in that community and they feel very strongly about how they can help. They don't take the place of a doctor, but we can't have doctors in every community. So obviously, when you have shortages, you have to look at how we utilize the strengths of the resource people that we have in the communities.

One issue - and I know some of my colleagues might take a little exception about my real concern about tobacco and how that is causing many problems. I am being told from very reliable sources, Mr. Chair - and I don't know if Mr. Chair wants to hear this - that over 30 percent of our cancer patients are smokers. Over 30 percent. So I said we're raising the tax this year by one cent a cigarette and I said I hope we could keep raising it. One person said, "Well, raise it to 10 cents a cigarette and see what happens." I'm sure people who smoke will not like the idea, but if this is where most of our costs are coming from, then that's one way we have to respond to it. We have to continue this proactive material.

The Prairie Northern Fetal Alcohol Syndrome conference approach toward FAS/FAE - and around the first of the month I will be going to the big convention in Saskatoon. The Yukon has had a very strong part to play in how we address FAS and FAE in our communities, and we will be holding the conference in the following year.

I believe that this government and previous governments have finally started on the track of trying to look at the causes of these issues.

The federal government, in its early childhood development programming and throwing additional money into helping smaller and younger children under the age of three, I think, is another way of trying to address it. We have got to look at long-term ways of doing this. You are not going to solve this problem overnight.

The health summit that were started by the former government and that we continued this past year is another way of raising the awareness of health issues, I believe. When you talk about active living right now, everybody knows what you are talking about. It's because that word has been broadcast throughout the territory. If it's any indication of what I see happening on our roads, on our streets, in our bushes, on our ski trails and so on, I think that more people are starting to realize that if they take control of their health, that means, in the long run, that it is going to save dollars from our coffers.

I don't think that we are ever going to get away from helping those people who need those kinds of supports. I believe that that is what the health care system is all about. But if we can avoid it, if we can avoid teenagers starting to smoke at the age of 13 and not carry it on and be hooked by it, then obviously that is where we have to spend our dollars.

The report card that was just recently issued by the Health department - and I think that the Health department did a wonderful job on that - was an idea that came from the Premier. She said, "You know, we need a report card, just like my child gets in school." Her child goes to Jack Hulland, she gets these report cards and she says, "I need to know how our health system is responding." And I think we were one of the first, by the way, in the country to do this kind of format. I am not saying the first to have a report card, but of that kind of nature, I think it was a good start.

We have got a lot of work to do. We have got to look at what is causing the problems, number one, and, number two, what resources we have. And I don't mean adding resources; I mean using our resources, redirecting our resources and maybe re-educating our resources or having resources re-educate the population, and then looking at how we can deliver.

I don't know if that's a good backdrop for the Member for Ross River-Southern Lakes, because I think, hopefully, it might give the member the view that I really believe in prevention. I've said it before, and we're not there yet, and I don't know when we are going to be there, but we have to throw almost as much money into prevention as we throw into the real rehab. If we don't, then we're going to continue throwing more money into buying more equipment, more tools; we'll need more doctors; we'll need more nurses, and so on.

Right now, we have no choice, Mr. Chair. We just don't have the doctors; we just don't have the nurses. So we have to work overtime ensuring that we keep the ones we have.

If you look at the age demographics of our nurses and doctors, guess what? It's all up at that upper age when retirement is slowly creeping up on them. We have a big gap there, so we have to do something very dramatic in the next year or two, in order to ensure we don't lose out on those services.

Mr. Keenan:      The backdrop that the minister provided does give me an inside look, I guess, at what drives the Liberal medical machine, because the minister is the chief, primary spokesperson of that, and I appreciate that. I don't think you'll ever see the day that you're going to have a - well, let's hope that the minister's goal, which is a common goal, I know, of even the smokers in this room, that we want healthy lives. So, I don't expect that we're ever going to need a $125-million budget in here for prevention and, if we do, it's too late for society, at that point in time - it's too late.

I certainly appreciate that fact, or that vision, I guess, of how to spend smarter. I like the idea of redirecting because, certainly, not at all times am I going to stand here and say, "Good work, good work," because, even in redirecting and reallocating, we have two different views on such things as social assistance, and that's going to be there forever, I guess. I guess that's the difference between the right and the left.

We'll get into that much later in the debate, but certainly I agree with the idea of prevention.

Now, in the document of the campaign material that is just a year old now, it speaks about protecting our social programs and protecting the five principles of health care: universality, accessibility, comprehensiveness, portability and publicly administrated. Now, it says there that the Liberal Party is very committed to that, yet it was just a few short months later when the minister was on a vacation - or maybe he was on a conference, I'm not really sure - when the Acting Minister of Health and Social Services was over meeting with the seniors and the elders of the territory and put forth an options paper. It seems to me that that options paper on the pioneer utility grant, which is a part of our health care system for elders, was a deviance from what the minister and the Liberal Party had said just a few short months before that.

I'd like to know if the minister agrees with me: is that pioneer utility grant, which is for the health and benefit of a select group of our society, albeit the elders - and I guess the elders and the youth are the most important thing to our society that they could be. That's what the elders and the youth are to us. So when we talk about a program that is universal, and then we're going to deviate from that, I was wondering if the minister would agree with me on that point. Obviously, he's not going to, but I would like that on the record if at all possible, and I'd like to know if any other programs are going to be brought forth. The reason I ask this is, yes, I certainly understand that we are a growing and ageing population and all the baby-boomers in the room are all going to get old. I guess we're all baby-boomers except for two, but even they're going to get older, and we're all getting there. So to sum it up: is there anything else on the table, and does the minister agree on the pioneer utility grant?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      The five principles put forward by the federal government as the basic health principles by which we operate - we are not deviating from them, Mr. Chair. We never have, we never will, and I would hope no government in the future ever will. That's the universal character of our health care system.

When the member opposite talks about the pioneer utility grant, that's something that's very unique to the Yukon. Many jurisdictions, if not all of them except maybe some of the northern jurisdictions, have no such program. I would suggest that any programs that are kind of made-in-the-Yukon programs are always open for discussion and debate. If we can't do that and review these programs and where they're going and what the impact is going to be - just because they have been introduced and are there forever, I would suggest, Mr. Chair, that that is not really the objective. I think the objective is to always review. I think I shared in my earlier statements with the member opposite that if it means rethinking and re-looking and re-identifying, then we have to do that. That's what governments are all about, whether it's on the left or the right or down the middle.

The important issue here is the five principles that the Canada Health Act very strongly states that we are all part of. Those are unquestionable. We stick to those like glue, because those are the guiding principles for our health care system. Again, when it comes to programs that we, as Yukoners, have put in place, I would believe that, if we're going to have open discussion and open debate, go ahead and move ahead, we have to discuss them. They may not reflect the day, they may not reflect who they're serving. It could mean that we should be looking at more resources for those who need them.

These are all questions that we should always ask, whether they are more, whether they are less, or whatever.

So, I guess for the member opposite, again, for the third time, the five principles are untouched. We believe in them and we support them. Made-in-Yukon programs - I would hope that as a democracy we could have a good discussion about them. That's really what it is all about. No decisions have been made. Consultation is the name of the game. You talk to people, you hear what they have to say, you get reflection on what they think we should do, and then the governments of the day make decisions. We have made no decisions about any programs that have been made in previous times here in the Yukon. Yes, we have discussed them and we are in the process of trying to discuss some of them, but no decisions have been made.

Mr. Keenan:      I will just say, forthright, that I am going to ignore the insults there, Mr. Chair, and if I feel that somebody is talking down to me, I am going to ignore that, because a great man, one who influenced me in politics - my previous Government Leader - said to me that one of the first principles was to ignore the insult and look for the issue. Because when somebody throws an insult, whether it's a smear or a duke-out or whatever it might be in-between, they are generally doing that from the point that they are frustrated and they have no other reaction. So, that's how I take that and look at that.

Now, Mr. Chair, I did ask - and I thank the minister for clarifying that he feels that anything that is not a federal program is on the table. And I appreciate him for coming clean, because that is certainly what I expected the minister to answer because I know full well that the minister is the Minister of Health in the Yukon territorial government, and although an influential player at the national scene, he is not the national scene. I know that. I have been to ministerial conferences myself, and I participated and came away with a sense of consensus and an idea of where we are going in the future. So I understand that, and the minister answered in the way that I expected him to answer.

That was only the first part of the question. The minister did not answer the second part of the question - is the department looking at anything else, other than the pioneer utility grant?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      Mr. Chair, I'm a little miffed - not miffed - I'm a little puzzled here. He was insulted by my making an underhanded statement. I don't know what I said, but I would appreciate - I'll ask the question. What did I say? What did I say that insulted the member opposite? I'm sorry. I did not say anything that I thought was insulting. I was just laying out, you know, what the principles were. If I did, I apologize, because I didn't mean to insult anybody. I'm just trying to give answers; that's all.

So, if the member's rather sensitive, I guess I'll try to choose my words a little more carefully.

As far as other specific programs, I think, as a government, we look at all programs. There's nothing specific. I believe efficiency is the name of the game - how do we deliver in a better way? How do we make sure that we address, in a better way, the needs of those who need it most? If there are vast disparities in how people are treated, then I think we have to know that as well.

He says that we're picking on this one and we're picking on that one. When I had four or five focus meetings in January - and some of my colleagues took part in them - some of the seniors felt that everything was on the table, because they recognize that we can't sustain a system that's out of control fiscally. They know that we are not going to be able to pay for everything that just keeps coming along, so how can we do a better job of what we're already doing?

I think those are some of the questions that we have to ask ourselves. We have to ask our communities; we have to ask the citizens how they would like to move ahead. It's not going to be a top down kind of thing - we do this, we do that.

Hopefully it's with that spirit of cooperation that the member opposite keeps talking about that we will go ahead with in the future. It's not one that's going to be, you know, the laying out of the facts, the laying out of the consequences, and then looking at where we want to go with this.

I don't know if that helps, but we are looking at no other specific programs; we're looking at all of them.

Mr. Keenan:      Mr. Chair, the member was clarifying things until the very last sentence. So I guess I've got to go back to that. The minister said that everything's on the table, but that they are not looking at anything specific. Is that a good way to sum that up?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      Mr. Chair, the question was asked: what other specific programs are you looking at? And my response was that we're looking at them all. As a new government that would be expected. We don't just accept carte blanche that, because it was there before, it's the best way of delivering the program. That's probably why we're a different government. We have different views, different objectives, and maybe different ways of trying to achieve maybe some of the same goals, but that's why we have to look at all the issues, so that we can hopefully come up with the right decisions for the future.

Mr. Keenan:      So I take it that looking at all programs and endeavouring to make them more efficient, to make them more targeted, I guess - okay, I understand that. But there is not a schedule of four years' administration saying that we're going to look at this this year, we're going to look at this year, and right now we're doing a review on all, and we're looking at this. I see the minister nodding his head on the opposite side, so I'll take that as a positive.

Well, let's stop and talk about this a bit, then. The minister used some inflammatory language. Now, if you use that inflammatory language, when you go into a meeting with seniors - and the minister did. I see the minister smiling; I bet the minister did. He said the system is out of control. Well, Mr. Chair, I beg to differ; I don't think the system is out of control. If you go to a meeting with seniors - and it's not consultation. I beg to differ with the minister; it is not consultation. Consultation is when you book a room in a community - Whitehorse is a community, and there are many communities in the territory - you have a discussion paper out there, and you circulate it to the community, and individuals within the community say, "By golly, that is pertinent to me and dear to me, and I'm going to go and discuss that."

That's consultation. When the department or a minister comes through with a paper with two options on it, it's an options paper. It's not a consultation paper. I understand where the minister is coming from, but I am pointing that out. I think it was done a bit awkwardly. If you want people to buy in - especially if you want this side of the House to buy in - I can't speak for that side of the House, only for myself and my colleagues, and I think I can speak for some of the citizenry that I represent - then we should do that. We should talk to them. We should say that this is what we're thinking and this is how it could work, and it's got to be efficient, because these are some of the problems.

If it's done in that context and people buy in, then I think we're working toward a common goal. I can buy into that. I might not buy into the decision of it, but it's a process. At least there's a bona fide process that's transparent, so that people can say, "That affects me or my family and I want to buy into it." That's a lot different from saying, "Well, we're thinking, in the backroom here, that we're going to do this, because, holy moly, we're in here for three years, and gee, I've got clout in Management Board anyway, so this is what we're going to do." That's not buying in.

So, I would like, I guess, to know the process, so that I can speak to the people about the process. But I would like to stop right here, at this point in time, and thank the minister or someone within the department for finally getting back to a constituent of mine, Mr. Koser. I just received a letter from Mr. Koser thanking me for raising his issues. I think that he also thanked the minister, or whoever the bureaucrat was who signed the letter, for getting back to him.

I think that we can learn a lesson from that in process - that if there is going to be a process, we have to have buy-in to it. It is communication. It's ongoing communication. I will even take a shot myself, right now. I represented that gentleman for three years previous to that, so it's not, "You're to blame" or " I am to blame." It's "How can we make it better?" We will leave the blaming or the duke-out, I guess, for here, and really try to calm the duke-out down.

We've got very short years in this Legislature. At least in some cases I hope that they are short. But we all have short years, Mr. Chair, and if we make the fundamental decisions on behalf of the people, it has to be a clear and very transparent process.

So that is the process that I just spoke about. And I have another point to this, I guess. Would the minister like to stop and answer that question on process for me at this time? Maybe we can do it that way.

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      The member opposite described exactly what we are trying to do when we consult - or at least when we did what we call "focus groups" with our seniors. The objective there was to show them the long-term financial picture over the next four or five years. Then, we would look at where our pressing increases were taking place and ask seniors, "What should happen? What do you think should happen? What should we do here?". Not coming out saying, "Well, we should do this and do that" and do everything else that we think should happen. We were asking for input from people who probably know best.

I would suggest that most people feel very, very strongly about how they want to work as a team. They recognize that this whole issue of cost of health care is not something that just came about in the last year. This has been going on for years.

I understand the member opposite, by saying it's out of control. I make those comments not because I'm trying to be inflammatory, but I'm also trying to look at where the costs are probably the hardest to really control, and that's in health care because when you have an accident, you know you have to deal with it. Here in the Yukon you can have one accident, and it could cost us a million dollars, and a million dollars, as the member opposite well knows, is a big hit for the Yukon government. In the provinces, it's probably not as big a hit, but here it is.

So, really trying to consult with people in an honest way is the only way that I believe we must proceed. Hopefully, what the member opposite has described is the approach that we would like to use and have been using already, and we want to build on it.

Mr. Keenan:      Certainly, Mr. Chair, I thank the minister for that, and I thank the minister for clarifying the "system out of control" comment, because it's that type of comment - that inflammatory type of comment - if taken out of context - and the minister put it into context for me so I can say, and get this, coming from me: that was a poor choice of language. It was not a good choice of language. So you explained it to me so that I can understand it. If that's the ultimate goal of government, then we have to be able to understand what the ultimate goal of government would be, and then people would buy in.

Now, this is the next stage of the question, I guess, if I could. When the department goes to the seniors and the seniors say, "Molly needs something more than Minnie does, and don't worry about me because I'm okay and I can look after myself" - I have heard that from seniors in this community of Yukon of ours and in northern Canada in general, because we in northern Canada have a different mindset from folks from outside.

We have a bit of a different mindset, and maybe it's because there are only, I don't know, 30,000 of us here, and I know there are 300 in the Northwest Territories, and I don't know how many in Nunavut, so let's say that there are not even half a million people north of 60. And we have unique aspiration, we have unique needs and those types of things.

But don't ever lose sight of the fact that a lot of the indigenous people come from a very, very traditional background. I won't get into my philosophical view at this point in time, but, at some point in time I would like to sit down and share with the minister that philosophical view.

There was a traditional lifestyle where you could more focus that traditional lifestyle that says, "Here's working for the belly." It looked after those real basic needs - the bacon and eggs, the medicines and those types of things.

Those people have travelled this land for all of those years and then along comes the contemporary economy in which a lot of those folks didn't fit, and they're right at this point in time now moving in. I'm not sure if I have the minister's attention or not. If he's discussing a newspaper with the deputy minister, I don't think I have the attention of the minister.

I did say that this was going to be more about policy. I want to get into the minister's head. I want to find out, so I can get a deeper understanding of the decision-making process that the minister puts himself through. Then I might be able to buy into that, or something, or I might be able to critique and offer pointers, to say, "You're in power, and I accept that, but this is how I can have input into it."

I know the minister rejected the all-party committee. He explained that in his own way, but this is my only chance to stand on the floor of the House and have this type of debate with the minister.

So, as folks enter a contemporary economy from the traditional economy, they don't have the background, they don't have the wealth that you and I have worked for for all of our lives. Whether we have accumulated that and held on to that wealth is a different story, but we've had the opportunity to work toward that. So you and I, if we're lucky, when we retire, we're going to have whatever it is that we're going to have through our financial wranglings, I guess. But other people in the territory never had that opportunity. What they have in their wealth is a culturally rich, very culturally diverse wealth. It doesn't really translate into something that, if you put it into your wallet and you sit in a chair, is going to hold you two inches higher in the air. It doesn't do it in that manner.

So for the minister to assume that all seniors in the territory are on an equal footing is wrong. If the minister does not assume that and that all seniors can describe or take a hit, maybe - or maybe that's not a good choice of words - in their pioneer utility grant, say, or give up some of the pioneer utility grant so that others might have more, I was wondering how do we go about establishing that basic needs level? What is the formula for this basic needs level that we're going to give to Minnie that Molly can't have because Minnie's got something over Molly? What is it? Is it a financial arrangement? Is it a social arrangement? Is it a cultural arrangement? Is it a combination of all those things? But how would we describe a basic needs level, and what is the process to get to a basic needs level?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      Again, I appreciate the Member for Ross River-Southern Lakes bringing forward some of the philosophies that he believes in. I really think that that's important.

I guess, just to respond to one comment that the member made about me not paying attention, I was listening with one ear, but also was handed the paper here - the Yukon News. I don't always embellish the Yukon News, but the title here caught my attention. It reads, "Nurse practitioners to the rescue." I was just sharing with my official here that this is really where we're going. Nurse practitioners to the rescue, because we don't have the sort of plentiful doctors that we've had in the past. That was what I was commenting on.

The second point was that the member was disappointed that we did not accept the all-party motion toward recruitment. There are a couple of reasons why we didn't do that. The member opposite didn't mention those couple of reasons, but I will, for the record, again. The first was that when we proposed the all-party committee to set up boards and committees, the members opposite refused. So, all of a sudden, they're on to an all-party committee again - one that suits them. We have still not enacted the all-party committee for the boards and committees, because the members opposite refused to take part. To suddenly jump on board and say that they're going to do an all-party committee for recruitment would have been a contradiction. We don't believe in contradictions; we believe in consistency.

The other part of that is that we are just moving into our second phase of recruitment of doctors, nurses and health care professionals. We have just finished the report, and it will be forthcoming in the next little bit here. The members opposite will obviously be able to see it, as well, so it would have been rather presumptuous for us to jump into this when so much work has already gone into the second phase of the whole issue of recruitment. It's not that we don't want input from the members opposite, it's just that we're at a different stage in trying to get to where I think the member opposite wants us to go.

For the members opposite, we are always interested in how we work together. I think that's very important, but it can't always be on the terms that the members opposite set. There has to be an agreement according to which we collectively set terms, and that hasn't always been clear and transparent for the members opposite. Yes, we recognize that they have had experience in government, and we would like to use some of that experience to make better decisions, but we have to be able to sit down together and come up with what I call common grounds as to how we approach it.

Hopefully, that may clarify a bit of how we see us working together. It can't be just on one side. It has to be collectively together. We have other examples, too, of where we have tried to work with the members opposite and they have refused, so obviously, the government of the day has taken certain steps to move ahead instead of backwards. And we don't want to do that, Mr. Chair. We want to work together.

So, I hope those kinds of responses will help a bit in trying to set the tone as to how we should work together. Now, if that's called undercutting or harsh words, it's just some facts. I'm just trying to present the facts as they are.

I appreciate the fact that I will not always have all the answers the member from the other side wants to hear, but I hope we will come fairly close together, because we're really looking at how we can help Yukoners.

When you look at the issue of helping and what issues we're going to take there, as far as how that's going to be done, I guess these are words coming out of the mouths of seniors when they talk about how we should help others. These are not my words. I'm just being a conduit for what they are saying.

And you're right. Maybe sometimes they'll say that they can help others when really they're not in a position to do that either, Mr. Chair.

So, hopefully, what we're going to be doing here over the next while is listening to what people and Yukoners have to say as to how we can better the system. If I'm repeating something that I have heard, it's only because I'm repeating it. It's not necessarily because I believe in it. I might believe in it, but it doesn't necessarily mean I do believe in it. I'm just sharing what some of our very esteemed people and our seniors and elders have to say, and I think they have some very good observations. They have come through a system where they had no health care, period. And when they see what we have today and how we're going to sustain it for the future, they're very concerned. They're concerned about it not only for themselves, but for the next generation coming along.

So I think that, hopefully, it is with that give and take that we try to come up with conclusions. We are not going to be rushing into any hasty decisions. I would hope that these decisions will be made with input from all resources, including the members from the other side.

Mr. Keenan:      I will stay away from the debate on Wednesday, although I will quickly point out that the minister, in two and a half minutes on his feet, provided more information to the Wednesday debate than two and a half hours in debate on Wednesday. I have got to say that I thank the minister very much for being able to condense a two-and-a-half-hour speech to a two-and-a-half-minute, factual statement. I appreciated that very much and we could probably have got into another debate on Wednesday. The minister sort of skirted all around but did not answer specifically, but alluded to a couple of points of consultation. Does the minister have guiding principles that he is following through this endeavour?

This is not a set-up question or anything like as such. I ask for principles. I can give the minister some of my ideas on principles or considerations, if the minister would like, if the minister does not have principles. Would that work?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      I am glad that I don't have any principles, as long as the member opposite says it, but I believe I do. I think principles are based on what you are, who you are, and where you want to go. And, I think that it is very important for us to understand that we as government are really guides as to where Yukoners want to go, wherever it may be - whether it's economics or whether it's health or whether it's education.

We try to touch base with Yukoners, and that means looking at the basic principles of what's fair to all. Then I would appreciate that that is one of our principles, right there. I think people want to be treated fairly and equally. They want to have access. I also think we must present challenges as to what we as individuals must also put into the equation. It's not a matter of just sitting and accepting and getting.

The one thing that I have found in my role in government, and I probably didn't realize this when I was sitting out there as one of the taxpayers and as one of the Yukoners who, from time to time, would criticize government, was the expectations that Yukoners have of government.

I guess what we have to do is sort of look at what we can do, as Yukoners, to help move along the principles of trying to help each other. We have to protect those things that are very basic, like health. We have to ensure that we provide the support when we need it. We must ensure that people are treated equally. I think that's very important, Mr. Chair. It doesn't matter where they come from, what part of the nation they come from, what part of the land they live off or where they come from in the territory, we have to treat people equally and also recognize that we can't have the same kind of care in Pelly that we're going to have in Whitehorse. It's just not realistic.

Now, if people expect to have the same care in Pelly that we have in Whitehorse, then we have to make sure that we clarify the roles that we have here.

I hear from the Member for Klondike quite often that we have two-tiered, three-tiered - the Member for Klondike is up to about four-tiered now - system, but that comes with where you live, Mr. Chair.

What we're trying to do is to offer, as best we can, that support you need, when you need it, but we also have to recognize, Mr. Chair, that we have individual responsibilities to ensure that we're doing our best to make the system work.

So I think that's very important. To say I have listed, in my office there, these principles, you know, of great sayings - I haven't. I just believe that I must do my part. My role as the Minister of Health and Social Services is to help others achieve their goals. I have worked with youth all my career. My goal was to ensure that we maximize their potential, and we try to do it right across the board - intellectually, physically, spiritually, emotionally. And there are many ways of doing it. So I think those are some of the goals that we have to look at.

Of course, tied to it, Mr. Chair, is that the bottom of the barrel is always in sight. We must be fiscally responsible. We can't expect just to throw money at it and expect something to be done. We have to look at what is going to work for us as individuals. Hopefully that may provide some clarity. If it doesn't, I'm sure the member opposite will tell me, and I'll carry on from there.

Mr. Keenan:      How about a five-minute break, Mr. Chair? Just quickly.

Chair:  Five minutes.

Recess

Chair:  I now call Committee of the Whole to order.

Mr. Keenan:      I'd like to thank the House for their indulgence. I appreciate it.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to commend the minister for a good job of spin. The spin is on the principles. I never did say to the minister that he has no principles. I would never stoop that low, to say that people are not principle driven. That is not what I meant at all, and I want that clarified, being that the minister said I was saying that he had no principles. We all have to be people of principle if we're going to be representing constituents in this House.

The principles I was talking about are these: how are we going to identify a formula? Is this formula going to be purely a fiscal formula? Is it going to take into consideration, for instance, an extended family in a rural community, and does that help to alleviate a medical or a health need? Those types of things.

I heard the minister speak a few moments ago about - I was thinking of urban and rural, and the minister clarified that he'd take that into consideration. I guess the fiscal reality of how much that person would have if it comes through - all those types of things: the location, the cultural background as it alludes to whatever that particular culture might have in terms of holding up a family or protecting an elder or something like as such, or learning from that elder. Those are the types of principles I was talking about. When we start delving into and identifying what that basic need is, it gets very personal for people. It gets to be almost, "Well, what are you asking these types of questions for?"

Some people just don't want government assistance, and others do. But it's going to be a tricky little thing. It probably could be done. I don't think that the Yukon Territory is the only jurisdiction with a program of this nature - the utility grants. I understand that Mr. Klein just brought one in to bring down the costs. I think Mr. Klein extended that to all Albertans, because they are in a different situation than we are. It was a program that was particular to Alberta, but it also has some type of peculiarity, I guess you might say, to the Yukon Territory. So, it's not just a one-jurisdiction type of initiative. You might be able to - no, please. I don't mean the department when I said "you". I don't want the department to go and ask Mr. Klein anything about health care. I almost suggested that. Stay away from Alberta.

Those are the types of issues I mean as principles. They are guiding principles. Is that a better way of describing it? They are guiding principles to take into consideration all of those issues. How do we do that? I know that some First Nation elders and seniors don't receive pension plans and things like that. It is going to be touchy and tricky. I would really suggest that if government is going to go out and do that, it should put some really good thought to it. It should say to the elders and seniors of the territory, "This is where we want to go." I'm sure you will have buy-in. It may be reluctant in some cases, but you will have buy-in.

I would like to see that process be very defined.

I will just go here for a bit if I may. The minister spoke about tobacco and cigarettes and prevention and putting, I think it was, a penny per cigarette tax on it so that we could just bring it more to people's attention. Does the minister have anything else up the minister's sleeve in terms of prevention of that? I guess, what I see is the Government of British Columbia taking the tobacco giants to court. Are there other issues that we have up our back sleeve?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      Just to mention - the member opposite mentioned Alberta with their utility grant - all of my relatives live in Alberta and they found it just fantastic as a great lead-up to the Alberta election there to get all of these positive bank accounts with their utilities. They thought it was great and a very good lead-up to an election that was held, by the way, and won by Mr. Klein. You know, obviously there were circumstances that necessitated topping up everybody's utility bill. Well, it may not be a principle, but obviously it worked for Mr. Klein. So, I guess when it comes to elections, you can do anything when you've got a $7-billion surplus. The member opposite is correct that there are other jurisdictions that have pioneer utility grants but many of them, if not all of them, are based on income tax. Obviously for those people who have more, it is clawed back. Right now in the Yukon, we don't have that. I am not suggesting that we are going that route but I am just giving a response to the member opposite or how some of the systems work in other parts of the country.

In response to your question about the tobacco, I guess when I hear that over 30 percent of our cancer cases are tobacco-related - I know of at least two people now who are going through these last stages of life, and I'm feeling very sad, but they're also smokers. I guess if they could do it over again, they probably wouldn't be smoking. So it is a very serious problem; it's a very serious problem for them, obviously, at this point in time. For us to sort of take on the tobacco companies with our small population would be almost impossible.

There was some talk at one time, I understand, of working with a larger jurisdiction like B.C., which was taking on these big corporations. We're not in the discussion mode at this time because there are other priorities right now in B.C., so I would expect that when these priorities are over and done with, hopefully we can get on with it and try to partner with some of the larger provinces so that we could move in that direction. I agree. I think a disservice has been done to all smokers, and now that they're hooked, it's very hard to get off. I understand that, but, on the other hand, we've got to look at ways and means of avoiding this in the future. So if that is going to be one of the ways, then hopefully we can throw our support into that area.

Mr. Keenan:      I thank the minister for presenting his thoughts on tobacco and the idea that the minister might be able to join forces in the future with other jurisdictions on that. I appreciate the forthrightness.

Just to go back to the universality of our own particular programming - the pioneer utility grant - about two years ago, I had instructed the Department of Community and Transportation Services to have a look at how the rural services that are provided match up to the taxes that people pay.

Now, I know this isn't Health. but what I'm saying is, within government and Community and Transportation Services, there is this paper, and it draws a match between taxation and the services provided. I remember looking at it and getting quite excited about it, if you can get excited about taxation and rural services - but I did get excited about it, because I saw the benefits of it.

It might be worthwhile just to have a very cursory read, just to see if there's anything in there in terms of process or guiding principles that might work in this situation, so we can catch all, I guess, or all interested thoughts and talks.

I will deviate a little bit right here and talk about the debate Wednesday. Now, the minister said that they felt, as a government and a government caucus, that they could not enter into an all-party committee on recruitment at this point in time because the official opposition - I take it it's just the official opposition, and not the third party there, because that has its own dimensions.

I take exception to that because when we as the official opposition were approached to sit on a committee of boards and committees, the work was basically done.

Now, the minister might not want to admit that, but therein lies the answer. The work was done. We felt as the official opposition that, if we were going to be partaking in this kind of board, it should be all and that we would work toward that end. So, it's not that the plum patronage appointments were made at this point in time and that it's all done, and then you guys come.

When I offer my advice, direction or energy, I offer my total advice and energy and all the goodness that comes with it. There is goodness that comes with it, because I don't look at the issue of politics at that point in time. I'm looking at the issue - the real issue. So when I spoke about trying to find a way to enable a good brainstorming session - and it might not have been possible, but I certainly wanted to try to do that. It was with that type of spirit and energy, because the recruitment process that we're in - I'm not a member of Management Board. I understand that - and I know I don't have as good an understanding as Management Board, caucus and Cabinet do of the fiscal reality - but, holy moly, we are getting beat out there. We're getting trumped by other jurisdictions.

The minister just said it, that it was Klein. There is a billion dollars in surplus and things like that, and to just throw it out at this point in time - we have to get more competitive. If government caucus thinks that this is an issue they want to tackle head-on, I congratulate caucus for tackling that issue and bringing forth a budget of this magnitude.

We could be helpful to it, but I guess the process is already in place. All I can encourage the government to do at this point in time is to put the resources to it. I think the Northwest Territories spent $3 million - and I'm reaching back into my memory here a bit - for designated people to sit here. We have California, as I said, off on surfboards, and New York and the theatre, and Malaysia and all these other people. If we're going to ever come and alleviate this problem through that as only one mechanism, then we have to put more resources to it.

So, I congratulate the minister for coming up with the idea, and I congratulate the minister for putting the locum support as an issue within there, but if we don't have a reliever to relieve the people that need to be relieved, then it's kind of a moot point.

So, I would appreciate if, at some point in time, we could become more aggressive with that recruitment, so that we could have people out there. Now, that's only one side, one issue out there. Right now, we have a world shortage of professionals - nurses and doctors, those types of people; I'll just lump them in as professionals - we have to get very aggressive. We're not going to ever be able to offer up the waves that California has, or the Broadway theatres that New York has, or the tax incentives that Alberta has, but we do have other things to offer. It might be a means of looking at the students, our youth, whom we have in the room with us today, to encourage them to go on. Would it be in the minister's mind to be able to reach out and look at these different types of avenues where, I don't know what it would be, a brainstorming session? Maybe if I were in a brainstorming session as I am right now, I guess, I'd throw out, "Could we pay off all their student loans for them? Could we get them to guarantee that they'd be coming home for two months?" I believe it was the minister himself who stood on his feet in this House on Wednesday and said that he has a son who is a doctor and that that son is located here in the Yukon.

What a success story, what a success story - and I think that the minister should be proud that his son -

Some Hon. Member:      (Inaudible)

Mr. Keenan:      Your son-in-law? Pardon me.

What a success story that you would still have some type of influence to be able to do that.

So there are other ways, I guess, of looking at things. Would the minister be willing to look at those types of issues, and does the minister have any other ideas of recruitment other than what he has already focused on?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      I really appreciate the Member for Ross River-Southern Lakes being really concerned about this. I think that this is an issue that we all should be very concerned about. I appreciate the fact that you have come forward with more questions and more thoughts on how we can proceed in the future.

I guess that one of the things that we have to really look at is that we as a government have sat down with the YMA and the YRNA and have actually had their input to these different stages in our recruitment package, which I believe is very important. We did not say that we have all of the ideas or the department has all of the ideas. We actually sat down with the front-line practitioners who came forward and sat down with us and said, "Okay, this is what we think will work. This is where we think we should go. This is how we should approach different areas and issues in the communities" and so on. So we are very, very pleased about being able to do that.

I feel, a little bit, the chagrin of the members opposite for not being able to be part of this, but I think that we were kind of ahead of the gun a bit. You know, we were out there all ready to go with our second phase; the second phase is just about in place. I guess I would just make a couple of observations. This weekend I went to my cabin out at Crag Lake and really let the sun pour in because it was peace and quiet. I didn't have any radios or telephones. I could just listen to what nature was telling me. It is interesting that, when you go back and forth, there was a discussion on nursing, and on the weekend they had some discussion about how this is a very serious problem in Canada, that the president of the Canadian Nurses Association, I guess you would call it, is looking at close to a quarter of a billion dollars from the federal government to promote nursing so that we could get on with it.

We recognize there's a big problem. I don't remember the lady's name, but I know that she was on the radio, and they were commenting on how this is almost essential. Now, we haven't got any of those dollars. I think all the provinces and territories are doing the best job they can with the resources they have.

Just another observation, this morning, listening to the radio - I try not to listen to it too much, but I from time to time fail in keeping that sort of promise, and so I do listen to it - they had on CBC three families that have returned to the Yukon. You know, we may not have Broadway and we may not have Hollywood, but guess what? A lot of people don't want those particular things. We have something even greater, and I think the Member for Ross River-Southern Lakes knows what that is. It's the fresh air, it's the freedom, it's the small communities, it's getting to know people, and it's getting to work for a future for their children. They were talking about the education system; they were talking about a lot of the things that they found to be a big advantage here. Some of them were in Edmonton, some of them were down east, and they would just love to return. Some are still outside, holding their job down, and half the family is here because they just felt that they did not fit outside any more because of what we have to offer. So we do have something to offer, very, very clearly.

I think the important issue for us in this whole area of phase 2 in the recruitment and retention - not to keep it all hush-hush and secret. There have been some very interesting discussions that have taken place with our doctors and our nurses. Even though many jurisdictions have talked about alternate payment plans, we already do some of that. If this suits a doctor who would like to relocate here, we're open to it, you know, rather than a fee for service. So we want to move on. If doctors want to stay with a fee for service, fine, we're not going to change that, either. If they're happy with a fee for service, then we're not changing that, either. There are different ways of looking at it. In Yellowknife, as I talked about last Wednesday, all the doctors are on contract. I'll qualify that - most of the doctors are on contract. There are about five or six who are still on fee for service, so there is a bit of a transition going on there.

There are no two jurisdictions that have the same recruitment and retention package, because each jurisdiction is so different, and it's very hard to compare. I always ask, what's the bottom line for nurses and doctors? And that's not easy to arrive at; there's no simple answer to that, I find, because there are different attractions and detractions in each area, so they all have to be considered when we're looking at providing packages. Hopefully this second round - this second phase, as we call it, phase 2 - has rolled into there some attractions that will, number one, address the crisis of maintaining our doctors here. I think that's number one. We want to keep our doctors here, so we're trying to address those issues.

Now, these are just thoughts and ideas at this point. They still have to move to caucus, and they still have to go to Cabinet, and they still have to go to Management Board, because obviously there will probably be implications. So, it's not just a matter of saying they all want to be treated, because anything you do requires additional resources.

So, hopefully, we're looking at creative ways, be it helping Yukon students. I'd like to encourage our pages here, if they want to be a doctor or a nurse or a health care professional, get on with it, because there's potential there; there's a career for you and, guess what? It's in Canada - you don't have to go to the States. In the 1980s, they had to go to the States. I can recall, many times, nurses were being laid off all over the place, and doctors were having difficulty finding - not necessarily as badly as nurses - complete practices. I remember here we had to close practices for a while, until that was found unconstitutional.

So, I think there are some issues here about how we can be creative. Again, I invite the members opposite. I mean, this is ongoing. We have come to phase 2; we're going to have to go to phase 3, probably a phase 4 - it's ongoing because, as long as we have a crisis, we're going to have to look at creative ways of trying to solve this very important issue.

By the way, Mr. Chair, it's not just doctors and nurses, it's all health care professionals - radiologists, people who work in the labs here, the pharmacists, it's social workers - the same thing. We're going to have problems. In the future, it's going to be teachers, in another year or two, so it's not just one area.

Mr. Keenan:      Well, I always get mixed emotions when I stand and talk to the minister, because we can stand and talk like this, then I'll give my ideas - they're good ideas - and we can interact with one another. I certainly appreciate that, because we're getting beyond the politics. Yet when it comes time - let me bring forth another motion for phase 2, all-party commitment in phase 2, because phase 1 is over.

I hear the minister encouraging me to bring forth ideas, and I appreciate that, but I'm not being mean or malicious. I'm laying out the point there that we've got to get beyond the politics. I appreciate that.

Another thing the minister might be able to work on - and maybe the minister is working on it at this point in time, because we talked about education of the folks - is the community health representatives, the CHRs. I know it's DIAND or maybe it's a federal program of some sort, mixed in through self-government. I remember the development of that program. It was around 1988 or something like as such when there was a recruitment drive. We looked at who was aware in the communities. There were lots of people who were excited about the idea of becoming a community health representative. I don't think that a community health representative is too doggone far away from being a nurse, I guess. They encounter the same types.

Is there anything within the minister's mind or the department that might be able to bridge the gap between the CHR and a local nurse?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      I guess just to again make the point that phase 2 is just about complete. The submission is being made right now and it will be in my hot little hands in the next few hours - a week, anyway. I will be seeing it. So, hopefully, after that, we will be sharing it. I would suggest that for the future, yes, I would like to see some ways that we can work together.

I believe again we're at sort of a defining time in trying to look at how we can build on our CHRs and how we can build on our capacity to increase and develop some of their skills. We currently have a bursary program for nurses, which is open to Yukon students. It doesn't mean that's the end of it. I think DIAND also has programs that are supportive and also will build on this need.

So, again, I would be open to future ideas, other thoughts in this area as to how we can develop it even more. I can't make a commitment at this point, but I believe we have to be as creative as we can and we have to get ideas out of the box that are maybe going to sound rather way out but they may respond to some of our needs.

Mr. Keenan:      Mr. Chair, the member knows I have a hearing problem so I'd just like to reiterate - was that a quarter-of-a-million-dollar new federal program or a quarter-of-a-billion-dollar new federal program? And was that strictly for nurse development and retention?

Hon. Mr. Roberts:      For clarification, Mr. Chair, what I heard on the radio - and I'm just going to repeat what I heard - the Canadian Nurses Association has requested close to a quarter of a billion dollars, $250 million, from the federal government, to throw into the development and encouragement and recruitment of nurses for all of Canada. Obviously we, as Yukoners, will probably get some of that if it ever comes to pass. We know it's in a crisis mode right now, as I shared with you earlier. This "Nurse practitioners to the rescue" headline is here in today's paper and has been in every paper that I know of over the last number of months. So I think it's important that we put more pressure on the federal government to come forward with these dollars, because we don't have a lot of extra dollars, as we all know, and yet we need these very important people in our health care system.

Mr. Keenan:      Well, Mr. Chair, I would very much encourage the minister to find a way to lobby his federal counterparts in the development of that, I think, very much-needed program. And if it's coming from the nurses themselves and if the government would form a partnership at every level - whether it's territorial or provincial, First Nation, national or local - we should be putting that pressure on the government.

I appreciate the minister saying that he will lobby far and hard. I'm just wondering if the minister has sent a letter, and if not, will the minister send a letter on behalf of the department and the Yukon? Or does the minister want to bring a motion to this House so we can bring it out and show them that we're very serious, in a collective way, about doing that? I would encourage the minister to look at that and if the minister does have a letter, I would encourage him to table the letter that he has sent. If the minister has not sent the letter and has nothing to table, could the minister send the letter and then table the letter? I'd very much appreciate having a copy of it, if I may, so we can put out that collective clout.

We were talking just a moment ago about lifestyles. There was an unfortunate accident in Teslin this weekend, and I didn't come into town until bright and early this morning, so I, too, live in a little spot much like the minister, only mine is Teslin Lake, not Crag Lake. I don't get radio or anything like that down there. I've got a movie channel, but it's always outside business. So I was kind of in limbo coming into town this morning. I did hear CBC, and I said, "Aha, there's another one. Come on home." So many people are that way, in that this is home, and it takes that trip outside for them to trigger their internal fortitude or whatever it might be. But this is home. So I heard that, and I was happy to see that people are coming back because of the uniqueness of the Yukon.

We do have that uniqueness of Yukon to bring the technicians, the nurses, the doctors, whoever they may be, and to let them live the lifestyle that they so choose to live. Whether it's working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, or whether it's working five days a week, four hours a day, we need those professionals.

The reason why I say a part